Theurge build advice and analysis needed!

[Peelee]

I'm running a Dwarven Druid in my current campaign, currently level 1. I'm planning to get Druid 3/Wizard 3 and go for Arcane Hierophant. The dilemma I have is there are three ways I can go about getting this (at least, three ways I have thought of) to try to get the best out of the time I have between Druid 3/Wizard 3 and Arcane Hierophant 1.

The dilemma:

Druid 3/Wizard 3 gives me access to 2nd level Arcane and Divine spellcasting, 8 ranks each in Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Nature), and the Trackless Step Class Feature, but NOT the +4 BAB.

The solutions:

1.) Take 2 levels of Mystic Theurge. This would be the most beneficial for advancing my spellcasting, as I'd be instantly advancing both classes to get 3rd-level spells before getting Arcane Hierophant. I like the idea of keeping the spellcasting both as powerful as can be with the Arcane Hierophant build and even between Arcane and Divine, but the fact I don't get Arcane Heirophant for another two levels means it's that long before getting it's juicy bonuses (not the least of which would be Wild Shape and no Arcane Spell Failure in medium armor, which I already have on), and the spellcasting advancement is the only thing I'd get if I simply Theurge it up.

2.) Take another Druid level. Let's face it, any other method will be faster than Mystic Theurge, and my Divine casting would still be as powerful as if I had gone with route 1, but my Arcane would always lag behind a bit, and would be weaker - a fairly troublesome thought, as another player in the party is a greedy, look-out-for-herself evil Sorceress, and she's already gotten us into trouble once before - I want to have a decent chance to dispel anything she tries to throw if it turns out not to be in our best interest (Practiced Spellcaster feat would come into play to help that, regardless of which build I choose). As for the Resist Nature's Lure, I don't expect to be running into too many Fey in the campaign (though of course I could be wrong), which could rob some of the value from this choice.

3.) Take a one-level dip in Fighter. As a Dwarf, it wouldn't bring any XP penalty for cross-classing at the level disparity, would bring my BAB up same as a single level of Druid or Wizard, and would also instantly grant me a +2 to Fortitude Save and a Bonus Feat. It would keep my spellcasting levels even (hooray!) though not as powerful as if I ran the double dip in Mystic Theurge (boo!), but a single level bringing my Fort up 2 points would be nice, and an extra feat (even if restricted to the Fighter Bonus Feat list) could help shore up any potential holes I might have, or bolster my spellcasting (Weapon Specialization: Ray, for instance). The question with this build is really "is the fort and feat worth it?"



I realize that the best advice is to build it the way I want to play it, and I fully plan to; the small gap to get my BAB up is something that, on the one hand, I don't really care too much about, but on the other hand, I realize could be a fairly important decision down the road. To anyone willing to answer, what I'm asking is, what would you consider the best option, and more importantly, why? I like having discussions that open up avenues I haven't thought of before, and that's exactly what I'm going for here.

For ease of suggestions, please be restricted to Core + Complete and Spell Compendium. (Yes, Arcane Hierophant is from the Races series; specific details are allowed to be requested, and are up to DM's decision whether to include or not. I have already asked for Spell Compendium and AH, so while I may be able to get more in, I'd rather not - if you really want to recommend a feature in other official books, please keep them reasonable)

Thanks!

[panaikhan]

Hi. I am currently running a MT / AH build myself.

I went the MT route simply to make sure of my spell power at the lower levels (my character is the ONLY true spellcaster in our party).

The single level in fighter also offers weapon use. Something as simple as a good bow and some custom-material arrows come in handy when you can't get through the pesky spell resistance.

If you can convince your DM, there 'is' a feat that lets you qualify for MT a level earlier, so you could go Druid 3 / Wiz 2 / MT 2. I forget what it is called, and it IS a little cheezy though.

[Biotroll]

The feat panaikhan is talking about is most likely Precocious Apprentice from Complete Arcane. Check with your DM about that feat first though.
It gives you ability to cast 1 spell from 2nd lvl (and spell slot to do so), so even wiz1 gives you ability to enter your theurge class of choice. There are some arguments about the feat not working that way or somesuch, maybe someone else can help you explain why, from my point of view it works fine though.
Also: Theurge handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247259) might give you some ideas.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you're worried about dispelling, consider items and feats to boost your caster level.

Items:
Ioun Stone (orange) gives +1cl.
Bead of Karma gives +4cl for your druid casting
Dispelling Cord +2 Dispel Checks
Ankh of Ascension +4CL (divine)

Spells:
Create Magic Tattoo +1CL

Feats:
Reserves of Strength +1-3CL

There's more but those come to mind.

As for resist nature's lure, you can trade it in for the Iron Constitution ACF from Cityscape to get immunity to nausea and +2 saves against disease.

[Gnorman]

Option 1: Yes. Do this. You're already behind as it is; don't fall further behind.

Option 2: An acceptable alternative, as you're at least progressing one side.

Option 3: This is a trap.

Option 4 (not listed): One level of Mystic Theurge with the fractional BAB rule, and you're technically there with no spellcasting loss. 1.5 (wizard 3) + 2.25 (druid 3) + .5 (MT 1) = 4.25.

[ahenobarbi]

If you go with 2 you will never get 9th level wizard spells. If you go with 3 you will never get 9th level wizard or druid spells.

So I suggest 1 or (even better) 4. You are much weaker than straight wizard or druid anyways.

If you're worried about dispelling, consider items and feats to boost your caster level.

Caster Level isn't a very big problem. You can just pick up Practiced Spellcaster (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/practiced-spellcaster--2231/) feat for each class. The problem is that you have access to spells 1 or 2 levels lower than Straight Wizard or Druid.

[Peelee]

Hi. I am currently running a MT / AH build myself.

I went the MT route simply to make sure of my spell power at the lower levels (my character is the ONLY true spellcaster in our party).

The single level in fighter also offers weapon use. Something as simple as a good bow and some custom-material arrows come in handy when you can't get through the pesky spell resistance.

If you can convince your DM, there 'is' a feat that lets you qualify for MT a level earlier, so you could go Druid 3 / Wiz 2 / MT 2. I forget what it is called, and it IS a little cheezy though.

I like the idea of the bow and arrows to help supplement things (I already have a handy Dwarven Waraxe, but non-magical range could be handy, and I pumped my Dex best as I could...even then, Zen Archery could make it better if I ultimately decide it's worth it). With Precocious Apprentice, I don't really consider it all that cheesy, since it's only purpose after you hit Level 3 (or 4, for Sorcs) appears to be specifically to get you into a Prestige Class faster; after you can cast 2nd level spells naturally, it becomes little more than the Extra Spell Slot feat with a +2 to spellcraft. In hindsight, it probably would have been more helpful to the build if I had gone that route, but my access to healing spells is the only reason the party is still up and running right now, so I don't think it would have been entirely possible. Though it does give me quite a bit of solace that you're also pulling the MT/AH chain and seem to like it.


The feat panaikhan is talking about is most likely Precocious Apprentice from Complete Arcane. Check with your DM about that feat first though.
It gives you ability to cast 1 spell from 2nd lvl (and spell slot to do so), so even wiz1 gives you ability to enter your theurge class of choice. There are some arguments about the feat not working that way or somesuch, maybe someone else can help you explain why, from my point of view it works fine though.
Also: Theurge handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247259) might give you some ideas.

I'm actually familiar with Precocious Apprentice, and the only drawback here is that it can only be taken as a 1st level character. As the fluff provides an excellent reason for this to be the case, and as the DM loves to run with fluff (he fleshes out the world quite well), I doubt I could get access to this. In any event, as I'm not Human or Elf, I'd have to take a second level in Wizard so as to not incur XP penalties. Though I do think next time I want to Theurge around I will almost definitely hit up this advice. The Theurge handbook I'll definitely look into, though!


If you're worried about dispelling, consider items and feats to boost your caster level.

Items:
Ioun Stone (orange) gives +1cl.
Bead of Karma gives +4cl for your druid casting
Dispelling Cord +2 Dispel Checks
Ankh of Ascension +4CL (divine)

Spells:
Create Magic Tattoo +1CL

Feats:
Reserves of Strength +1-3CL

There's more but those come to mind.

As for resist nature's lure, you can trade it in for the Iron Constitution ACF from Cityscape to get immunity to nausea and +2 saves against disease.

I'm none too worried about trading Resist Nature's Lure for an ACF, since I've already got the standard PHB Druid running, and I don't really think I'm gonna pull the single Druid level to get the BAB up. I threw it out as an option to see the thoughts for or against it, and it doesn't seem to have any sort of approval to rank it higher than the Mystic Theurge dip. I was planning on seeing if I could get magic items to boost my Wis, Int, and Dex primarily, but looking at others to help round out my guy would be a good idea. Thanks!


Option 1: Yes. Do this. You're already behind as it is; don't fall further behind.

Option 2: An acceptable alternative, as you're at least progressing one side.

Option 3: This is a trap.

Option 4 (not listed): One level of Mystic Theurge with the fractional BAB rule, and you're technically there with no spellcasting loss. 1.5 (wizard 3) + 2.25 (druid 3) + .5 (MT 1) = 4.25.

I think I'm definitely going to ask about the fractional rule, and see if I can't get in that way. I like the Mystic Theurge option the best, but my biggest concern is my arcane spells fizzling out. Getting Arcane Hierophant as quickly as possible to get my armor to stop messing with me is greatly preferable. Thanks!


If you go with 2 you will never get 9th level wizard spells. If you go with 3 you will never get 9th level wizard or druid spells.

So I suggest 1 or (even better) 4. You are much weaker than straight wizard or druid anyways.


Caster Level isn't a very big problem. You can just pick up Practiced Spellcaster (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/practiced-spellcaster--2231/) feat for each class. The problem is that you have access to spells 1 or 2 levels lower than Straight Wizard or Druid.

Not too concerned with the fact I'll be getting spells a little later than straight Wizard or Druid; part of the reason I'm doing this is to counter our other spellcaster, who is a Sorceress, so I won't be too far behind her, and since I'm taking the Wizard route, with a little patience and spellcraft checks I'll be able to figure out her whole spell list, be prepared to try to counter anything she throws that seems against the party's best interests or tries to force us away from being Good, and still have access to mountains of buff n' blast spells to round it all out.

[Callin]

Improved Counterspell couldnt hurt since you are worried about having to counter a fellow PC's spells. Also could help with normal everyday mobs as well.

Other than that it really comes down to do you want to be a better Druid or a Better Caster over all.

[Zanthy1]

Option 1 with the practiced spellcaster feat. Unless you can clear option 4 with your DM.

[Peelee]

Improved Counterspell couldnt hurt since you are worried about having to counter a fellow PC's spells. Also could help with normal everyday mobs as well.

Other than that it really comes down to do you want to be a better Druid or a Better Caster over all.

Now that's a solid idea I hadn't thought of at all. Thanks!

Oh, and I'd prefer to be a better caster over better Druid. One day I'd like to run a straight Druid, but that day is not today.


Option 1 with the practiced spellcaster feat. Unless you can clear option 4 with your DM.

Totally what I plan to do, except I'll take the Practiced Spellcaster feat twice, once for Wizard and once for Druid. My feat list is looking pretty packed right now.

[Gurgeh]

Theurge won't even be a dip, necessarily; once you've hit level 10 in Arcane Hierophant, you won't be able to progress any further until you hit Epic levels, so you'll probably go back to Theurge then to keep your casting balanced. So realistically your hypothetical level 20 class balance will probably be Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10.

[Peelee]

Theurge won't even be a dip, necessarily; once you've hit level 10 in Arcane Hierophant, you won't be able to progress any further until you hit Epic levels, so you'll probably go back to Theurge then to keep your casting balanced. So realistically your hypothetical level 20 class balance will probably be Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10.

Quite true, but I have no idea how far along the campaign will take us (I'm assuming teens at the very least, but do not know if he plans the full 1-20 progression), and any of the other options are a quicker method. The only flaw in the Mystic Theurge levels to get the BAB up to snuff is that it takes a whole extra level; in all other respects, it's the superior option (and is overwhelmingly superior if I can get the fractionals ruled in).

[Keld Denar]

It's worth noting that Arcane Heirophant does not GRANT Wildshape if you don't already have it. It will PROGRESS it, but it will not GRANT it. So, if you don't have at least 5 levels of Druid, you won't ever get Wildshape.

Just saying.

[Peelee]

It's worth noting that Arcane Heirophant does not GRANT Wildshape if you don't already have it. It will PROGRESS it, but it will not GRANT it. So, if you don't have at least 5 levels of Druid, you won't ever get Wildshape.

Just saying.


Wild Shape (Su): If you do not already possess the ability, you gain no new ability to wild shape. However, you add your arcane hierophant level to your druid level and gain the wild shape ability of a druid of the resulting level. For example, a character who is a 3rd-level wizard/3rd-level druid/4th-level arcane hierophant has the wild shape ability of a 7th-level druid. If you are not a druid, (for example, if you entered the class as a wizard/ranger), you do not gain the ability to wild shape.

Emphasis mine.

It's oddly worded. The first sentence does indeed claim that if you cannot currently wildshape, you gain no new abilities to, yet immediately after, it seems to countermand that by saying that Arcane Hierophant level is added to Druid level and gain the Wild Shape ability the resulting Druid level would give - and the example (which is an impossible build, since the BAB requirement for the Arcane Hierophant would not be met, but that's another quirk for another thread) specifically states that a Druid 3 - which gets no Wild Shape - does in fact gain Wild Shape when the approprite level of Arcane Hierophant is added.

Given the strange wording of the paragraph as a whole, I take it to mean that if a character would never gain Wild Shape (such as a Ranger) would not gain Wild Shape as a benefit of being an Arcane Hierophant. In short, it looks like "possessing the ability to Wild Shape" in this context means whether your character would naturally learn it regardless, whether or not you can currently use it.