Grapple a Dragon

[Ardantis]

I KNOW that grappling is sub-optimal. I know.

BUT.

With FULL BROKEN POWERGAMING at my command, and ultimate optimization (excluding infinite combos, although of course those would work) how can we make a grappler that is effective?

Here's my challenge:

What character build would be able to have even odds of initiating AND winning a grapple check against a Red Dragon at their CR?

I'm thinking ECL 13, to grapple a Young Adult Red Dragon. Because all grapplers should be able to grapple True Dragons at their CR.

(Hint- This means you need better than even odds of winning the grapple check AND a solid chance of hitting the creature with a touch attack to initiate the grapple)

Here are some ideas:

War Hulk
Reaping Mauler
Divine Feat / Epic Belt of Kord
Goliath/Half-Giant
War Mind/Psychic Warrior (for Expansion)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Totemists (MoI) can get some pretty nice bonuses.

Incarnate Construct/Sandform template can stack indefinitely, giving you infinite Strength (which adds it's bonus to your check).

[Gwendol]

Hitting the dragon with a touch attack is typically not very challenging, getting close enough to do it will however (at least not without, you know, die trying).

[supermonkeyjoe]

A master of Many forms Prestiged druid did pretty well with grappling in my games, just turn into something big and nasty with appropriate bonuses to grapple and go nuts. added bonus in that you can turn into something immune to a lot of its attacks to get in close.

[Fouredged Sword]

Goliath Half-minotaur Totemist 2 / psiwar 16 with maxed out expansion and Grallion arms bound to the totem chakra.

You should be able to get your grapple check into the 50's. A scroll or two of divine power will help with bab.

[Telonius]

Without terribly stinky cheese:

Azurin Totemist2/Warblade11

1 Improved Unarmed Strike
1 Improved Grapple (req Dex 13) +4 grapple
3 Combat Focus (req Wis 13)
6 Combat Stability (+4 to resist grapple actions, helps to prevent dragon from escaping grapple or damaging you while in grapple)
9 ?
12 Open Lesser Chakra: Arms (+2 insight to Grapple). Select Girallon Arms, get +2 grapple. Invest 3 essentia, get +6 additional. Total bonus from feat and meld: +10 grapple.

Warblade11: Battle Skill: +Int to resist grapple checks (helps prevent dragon from escaping grapple or damaging you while in grapple)

Key stances: Wolverine Stance (damage during grapple), Roots of the Mountain(helps prevent dragon from escaping grapple or damaging you while in grapple; +10 if touching the ground).

28 point buy: STR 16, DEX 13, CON 11, INT 13, WIS 13, CHA 8. Add +1 to Int at 4th, STR at 8th and 12th. Totals: STR 18, Dex 13, CON 11, INT 14, WIS 13, CHA 8

Total possible grapple bonus (initiated by me) before magic items: 12 (BAB) + 4 (STR) + 8 (girallon arms) + 2 (Open Lesser Chakra) + 4 (improved grapple) = +30

Total possible grapple bonus (versus Dragon's attempts to grapple): 12 (BAB) + 4 (STR) + 8 (girallon arms) + 2 (Open Lesser Chakra) + 4 (improved grapple) + 2 (Int) + 4 (combat stability) + 10 (Roots of the Mountain) = +46

A Red Dragon's grapple modifier is +37. (Touch AC is a trivial 8; unless he has Scintillating Scales up, we should be good for that). So we're doing pretty well for resisting grapple checks, as long as we're on the ground. Even if we aren't, the Dragon's only ahead by one. Enlarge Person would bump it up to +34/+50 (but would require us to have Gloves of Dex +2, or else we lose the prereq for Improved Grapple). Now the initial grapple check is only three less than the dragon's. It should be fairly trivial to get that much from magic items.

Ugh, strike that - totally missed the CON 15 requirement for Open Lesser Chakra...

[Ardantis]

Khulveyson-

Totemist sounds good. Remember, no infinite combos

Gwendol-

You bring up a VERY good point. Survivability and/or ability to avoid AOO/Breath Weapon are probably a necessity. Assume flight from item/ally.

supermonkeyjoe-

Which forms, specifically, did the MoMF take? Which abilities did he look for in his forms?

Fouredged Sword-

NOW we're talking. Goliath Half-Minotaur will be Huge for the purposes of grappling, with extra arms and expansion (Colossal for the purposes of grappling)

The Dragon has a grapple check of +37, so a check in the 50s beats it. What options would the character have to avoid breath weapons or AOOs?

[Ardantis]

Telonious!

Thank you for the full build. You must be very bored at work/school.

Question, though- how would you close ground with the dragon without taking excessive AOO/Breath Weapon damage?

With Con 11 and Dex 13, you're on the shallow end of the HP pool and even with good armor your AC isn't too hot, plus your classes are all-around pretty clunky at moving around the battlefield. I'm thinking the PsyWar idea is more likely to have tricks for that.

Can you address these concerns?

Also, why Azurin?

[Kuulvheysoon]

[S]Without terribly stinky cheese:

Azurin Totemist2/Warblade11

1 Improved Unarmed Strike
1 Improved Grapple (req Dex 13) +4 grapple
3 Combat Focus (req Wis 13)
6 Combat Stability (+4 to resist grapple actions, helps to prevent dragon from escaping grapple or damaging you while in grapple)
9 ?
12 Open Lesser Chakra: Arms (+2 insight to Grapple). Select Girallon Arms, get +2 grapple. Invest 3 essentia, get +6 additional. Total bonus from feat and meld: +10 grapple.

Warblade11: Battle Skill: +Int to resist grapple checks (helps prevent dragon from escaping grapple or damaging you while in grapple)

Key stances: Wolverine Stance (damage during grapple), Roots of the Mountain(helps prevent dragon from escaping grapple or damaging you while in grapple; +10 if touching the ground).

28 point buy: STR 16, DEX 13, CON 11, INT 13, WIS 13, CHA 8. Add +1 to Int at 4th, STR at 8th and 12th. Totals: STR 18, Dex 13, CON 11, INT 14, WIS 13, CHA 8

Total possible grapple bonus (initiated by me) before magic items: 12 (BAB) + 4 (STR) + 8 (girallon arms) + 2 (Open Lesser Chakra) + 4 (improved grapple) = +30

Total possible grapple bonus (versus Dragon's attempts to grapple): 12 (BAB) + 4 (STR) + 8 (girallon arms) + 2 (Open Lesser Chakra) + 4 (improved grapple) + 2 (Int) + 4 (combat stability) + 10 (Roots of the Mountain) = +46



IF you manage to shuffle around your levels (AKA Warblade 9/Totemist 2/Warblade 2) you can qualify for Combat Vigor at 9th, giving you fast healing 4, as well as doubling your bonus from Combat Stability (as Vigor makes 3 combat form feats).

EDIT: @ Ardantis - Azurin get the human bonus feat, but a point of essentia (to invest in girallon arms) instead of the bonus skill points.

And keep in mind he's assuming a 28 PB. With the more standard (as far as I've seen) 32, he can do Str 16/Dex 13/Con 14/Int 14/Wis 13/Cha 8, and put one of his level up points into Constitution to qualify for Open Lesser Chakra.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wu Jen gets Giant Size, as does OA Shaman. At high enough levels that will turn you colossal and give you a MASSIVE str bonus (+32). It is my #1 way to grapple dragons. Alsox if you do this, the Crocodile Hunter voice is mandatory.

[Ardantis]

Thelonious-

Ooh, sorry about that.

[Artillery]

Totemists (MoI) can get some pretty nice bonuses.

Incarnate Construct/Sandform template can stack indefinitely, giving you infinite Strength (which adds it's bonus to your check).

Young adults have a grapple check of +37. 19 BAB + 10 Str mod + 8 Size mod

ECL13: Half-giant Psychic Warrior 4/totemist 8. LA+1

Expansion up two size categories, have powerful build so you have the grapple bonus of a Gargantuan creature. 20 str base, +4 str item, +4 str expansion.
So that is +12 size mod. Strength is 28, so +9 str. BAB +9. Girallon Arms +10 grapple, +4 Improved Grapple. That gives you a grapple check of +44.

If you don't mind Half-minotaur then do Half-minotaur/Elan. Racial +12 Str, -2 dex, +6 con, -2 int, +2 NA, -1AC, -1 to hit and Large size. LA+1.

Do Same as above but you get a check of. 30 str base, +4 str item, +4 str expansion. You are gargantuan.
So that is +12 size mod. Strength is 38, so +14 str. BAB +9. Girallon Arms +10 grapple, +4 Improved Grapple. That gives you a grapple check of +49.

[Fouredged Sword]

Tank the AOO. You can survive a hit from the dragon going in. You take, what, 30-40 damage. You vigor yourself those HP prehit and share pain with your psicrystal to make that damage very little. Psionic energy resistance powers will midigate the breath weapon along side the share pain combo. Charge in to minimize the time for the dragon to react with spells.

[Person_Man]

Things to consider:

Anything that increases your size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) improves your Grapple check by +4 per size catagory.

Chain of Obeisance: +2 Unholy Spiked Chain. If you successfully Pin your enemy in a Grapple, they must make a Will Save or be Dominated as per Dominate Monster. Requires True Believer feat and 13 HD. 35,600 gp, Complete Divine pg 94.

Gloves of Titan’s Grip: While wearing these oversize gloves, the user gains a +8 enhancement bonus on grapple checks. The power is activated when the user enters a grapple. The enhancement bonus lasts for a maximum of 7 rounds per use, up to three uses per day. SRD. 14,000 gp.

Zagon vestige (Binder 10ish): Grants Improved Grapple, Constrict, and other useful abilities. You also count as Large for the purpose of your opposed Grapple checks. This is hilarious and awesome for small, tiny, or fine sized Binders. Tome of Magic.

Girillion Arms soulmeld: 2 + (2 * essentia invested) bonus to Grapple and Climb checks. Also grants you 4 claw attacks when bound to your Totem Chakra. Magic of Incarnum.

Scorpion Claws: Light Exotic weapon that grants +4 to Grapple checks. The bonus is unnamed, so it stacks with Improved Grapple. Sandstorm.

Sharktooth Staff (Savage Species) or Mancatcher (Comp Warrior) or Pincer Staff (Underdark). More Exotic weapons. Each gives you a free Grapple attempt when you hit your enemy, though the weapon properties/damage vary slightly.

Scorpion’s Grasp Feat: Free Grapple check whenever you hit an enemy. Sandstorm pg 52.


Honestly, it's not that hard to optimize Grapple. Totemist or Psychic Warrior or Binder or any Tier 1-2 caster with 2-4 Feats, and you're good to go. Just having Scorpion's Grasp or one of the Exotic weapons which generates Grapple checks when you make melee attacks should generate 3+ checks per round, so even if you only have mediocre modifiers, you'll probably succeed.

[Ardantis]

Khulveysoon~

The rearrangement works to give some more HP and improve the Grapple Check, but you're still short the Con to get the Girallon Arms. Thanks for the Azurin update.

ZamielVanWeber~

Really? Do mages win again? Well, I hope Giant Size gives HP, or that Dragon could still put the hurt on before you... before you... well, before you pick him up and play with him like a toy. What level spell is Giant Size?

Artillery~

Thank you for exploring the PsyWar build. It has a grapple check just above the Dragon base, which could be improved with items, plus a low LA and manifesting.

You've got the reach to grapple the dragon without him having many physical options. How would you approach/engage the dragon from a distance? Assume flight from an ally/item.

[Telonius]

Telonious!

Thank you for the full build. You must be very bored at work/school.

Question, though- how would you close ground with the dragon without taking excessive AOO/Breath Weapon damage?

With Con 11 and Dex 13, you're on the shallow end of the HP pool and even with good armor your AC isn't too hot, plus your classes are all-around pretty clunky at moving around the battlefield. I'm thinking the PsyWar idea is more likely to have tricks for that.

Can you address these concerns?

Also, why Azurin?

Azurin was for the bonus essentia. You'd only get 2 essentia from two levels of Totemist, and your essentia capacity as a 13th-level character is 3. You could get an extra one from feats, but unless you were planning to take another Incarnum feat anyway you might as well get it for "free." (Losing the 1 skill point per level for human probably isn't too great of a loss as far as the build goal goes).

[Ardantis]

Person Man!

Glad to get your attention on this one. I appreciate especially the items and specialty feats (Scorpion's Grasp is wicked).

Really, I just needed to know it was possible. I was fairly heavily abused as a grapple character in a game back in college, and have been a little scarred because of it ever since.

I'm also attending/participating (as a physical comedian) in a demonstration of "powerful blows" karate this weekend, and don't want to get the crap beat out of me by professional beat-up artists. This helps immensely.

Thanks again!

EDIT: Also thanks Telonious for explaining the Azurin choice more in-depth

[Kuulvheysoon]

Khulveysoon~

The rearrangement works to give some more HP and improve the Grapple Check, but you're still short the Con to get the Girallon Arms. Thanks for the Azurin update.

You missed the second edit, with changes from 28 PB -> 32 PB.

Druids also make good grapplers, with Wild Shape and Kelpstrand.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Khulveyson-
supermonkeyjoe-

Which forms, specifically, did the MoMF take? Which abilities did he look for in his forms?



At ecl 13 the MoMF can get huge sized creatures of a variety of types of up to 13HD and gains all [Ex] abilities, quite a few creatures fit the grappling bitt but IIRC the darktentacle from Monster Manual 2 has a high grapple check with a decent racial bonus and something like 10 tentacle attacks per round, that's 10 attempts to grapple, chances are you're going to make at least one of those.

[ZamielVanWeber]

ZamielVanWeber~

Really? Do mages win again? Well, I hope Giant Size gives HP, or that Dragon could still put the hurt on before you... before you... well, before you pick him up and play with him like a toy. What level spell is Giant Size?

It gives a Con bonus. The spell level is 7-8 depending on how you get in. The Shaman also rocks a 3/4 BaB and a d6. I forgot that Dragon Magazine flubbed its yodatr and Shaman's animal companion no longer works properly. Give it a druid's and you can giant size your animal friend.

[A_S]

If you have Improved Grab or the Scorpion's Grasp feat, the Whirling Blade spell will trigger a grapple check which will pull your enemy into your space if it hits. Then just be really big and take all of Person Man's advice above to get your check really high.

[Randomguy]

Hmmm...

Monk 2/Totemist2/Fighter 2/Wizard2/Abjurant Champion 5.

The second monk level is mostly just so that Fractional BAB rules aren't necessary for you to get into Abjurant Champion.
The wizard level should probably be Focused Specialist Transmuter.

With 28 point buy:
Str: 16 (10 points) Dex: 12 (4 points) Con: 14 (6 points) Int: 15 (8 points) Wis:8 Cha: 8
+1 Strength at level 4 and 8.
+ 1 Int at level 12.

Making that: Str: 18 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Int: 16 Wis:8 Cha: 8

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk)
Improved grapple (monk)

Level 1: Carmendine Monk
Level 1 (human) :Abberrant Blood (Flexible limbs).
Level 3: Combat Casting.
Level 6: Bonus Essentia.
Level 9: Practiced Spellcaster.
Level 12: Minor Shapeshift.

And you've still got 2 free fighter bonus feats.

You've got a CL of 14 for polymorphing spells, so you can polymorph into an Athach (Monster manual p. 21) to get 26 strength and huge size.

Grapple Bonus:
+10 BAB
+8 Strength bonus from polymorph.
+3 (From an enhancement bonus to strength from the fist of stone spell.)
+8 Size bonus for huge size.
+4 Improved Grapple
+2 Abberrant Blood (racial bonus)
+4 from Fearsome Grapple spell (Circumstance bonus)
+10 from Girallon's arms soulmeld. (Competence bonus)

So that's +49 to grapple.

And you've got spellcasting up to 5th level spells to help survive, and evasion, and you can boost your AC up pretty high with magic thanks to abjurant champion. And you can have another soulmeld up for more bonuses.

[Fouredged Sword]

Note, for those of us relying on soulmelds with totemist 2.

Beware of dispelling. The level of the soulmelds is very low so they are easy to dispell.

Carry a spellperrying quarterstaff with each end enchanted to parry a different spell. You need to parry Dispell and Greater Dispell magic. This will make you immune to both. Now you just have to worry about Disjunction, and most dragons don't have 9th level spells. I think there are some other obscure dispells, but you can't be immune to everything, right?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Note, for those of us relying on soulmelds with totemist 2.

Beware of dispelling. The level of the soulmelds is very low so they are easy to dispell.

Carry a spellperrying quarterstaff with each end enchanted to parry a different spell. You need to parry Dispell and Greater Dispell magic. This will make you immune to both. Now you just have to worry about Disjunction, and most dragons don't have 9th level spells. I think there are some other obscure dispells, but you can't be immune to everything, right?

Soulmelds are treated as magic items for dispelling, so you'd lose about +10 to your grapple check for 1d4 rounds. Not optimal, but survivable, seeing as how this is only ECL 13.