Is a skill bonus from a Template a racial bonus?

[BowStreetRunner]

I have been considering building a Whisper Gnome (RoS p94, +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently) with the Dark creature template (ToM p158, +8 bonus to Hide and +6 bonus to Move Silently). My concern is that I have a vague recollection of a ruling somewhere that states the skill bonuses from a template are considered racial bonuses, and therefore would not stack with the Whisper Gnome's racial bonuses. However, after searching through the 3.5 books I have not found anything to prove this one way or another.

Does anyone know if such a rule exists, or is my memory faulty?

[CaladanMoonblad]

Correct.

You'll notice the languge in the SRD for the vampire template;


Skills
Vampires have a +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as the base creature.

The same sort of language exists for liches.


Skills
Liches have a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as the base creature.

Templates are racial bonuses in these instances. Take a look at other templates from Core. If there is a variation in a splat book, it's probably an oversight.

So what does the template language say for your choice?

[Jeraa]

Racial bonuses are one of the few bonus types that always stack.

Edit: At least they do in Pathfinder. I can't seem to find that for 3.5 however, so it may not be true.

[mattie_p]

Racial bonuses are one of the few bonus types that always stack.

Edit: At least they do in Pathfinder. I can't seem to find that for 3.5 however, so it may not be true.

Yeah, not in 3.5


Stacking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking)
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

I do believe, though, that the Dark Creature Template's skill bonuses are untyped, and therefore stack with racial bonuses.

[BowStreetRunner]

So what does the template language say for your choice?

The line that mentions the bonuses states this:

"Skills: Same as the base creature, plus Hide +8 and Move Silently +6."


Racial bonuses are one of the few bonus types that always stack.

Edit: At least they do in Pathfinder. I can't seem to find that for 3.5 however, so it may not be true.

The Rules Compendium p21 states "Bonuses that have identical types don’t stack, except for dodge bonuses and some circumstance bonuses." This reiterates what was stated in the original core rulebooks, so it is pretty clear that racial bonuses do not stack in 3.5.

I honestly wish the lazy writers at WOTC would have stated explicitly when something is an untyped bonus by calling it 'untyped' and not leave people wondering if there is another rule somewhere else that assigns the type to the bonus.

[mattie_p]

The supplementary dark creature template in Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave, does list it as a racial bonus, FWIW.

[BowStreetRunner]

The supplementary dark creature template in Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave, does list it as a racial bonus, FWIW.

Interesting.

Tome of Magic was published in 2006 and lists Matthew Sernett, Ari Marmell, David Noonan, and Robert J. Schwalb as the design team.
Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave was published in 2007 and lists Richard Baker, David Noonan, Bruce R. Cordell, James Wyatt, and Matthew Sernett as the design team.

So Noonan and Sernett were involved in designing both products. Which can influence our interpretation of the rules as intended. But since Forgotten Realms is not part of the campaign I am in, I would still like to find a Core source that confirms this.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yeah, not in 3.5



I do believe, though, that the Dark Creature Template's skill bonuses are untyped, and therefore stack with racial bonuses.

Actually, after a bit of googling, I tracked down a quote in my PHB, 171. It doesn't sound very authoritative, but here it is.


Bonus Types: Many spells give their subjects bonuses to ability
scores, Armor Class, attacks, and other attributes. Usually, a bonus
has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. For
example, mage armor grants an armor bonus to AC, indicating that
the spell creates a tangible barrier around you. Shield of faith, on the
other hand, grants a deflection bonus to AC, which makes attacks
veer off. (Bonus types are covered in detail in the Dungeon Master’s
Guide.) The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of
the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge
bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the
better bonus works (see Combining Magical Effects, below). The
same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more
penalties of the same type applies only the worst one.

Emphasis added. Relevant text in the following "Combining Magical Effects" rather moronically then refers back to the quoted section (hall of mirrors for the win).

I'd be interested in what the RAW experts out there conclude is the official ruling, since the DMG entry sets about to specifically define bonus types and stacking, and is even referenced by the above quote, while I've been told the PHB is supposed to supersede other sources when there is a conflict.

Good luck sorting out more bad RAW.:smallamused:

[BowStreetRunner]

I had noticed before that the DMG and RC both agreed that only Dodge and some Circumstance bonuses applied, but hadn't noticed the peculiarity in the PHB that Phelix-Mu pointed out. My play group generally accepts that the Rules Compendium supersedes the PHB and DMG where applicable however, and in this case it no longer includes the reference to racial bonuses.

Personally, I think the reference on page 98 of the PHB under the Mobility feat to "a dwarf’s racial bonus on dodge attempts against giants" illuminates the confusion that may have been in the minds of the developers when they wrote this. PHB was the first book printed in the set, and they were still trying to nail down some of these points.

[CaladanMoonblad]

The line that mentions the bonuses states this:

"Skills: Same as the base creature, plus Hide +8 and Move Silently +6."



The Rules Compendium p21 states "Bonuses that have identical types don’t stack, except for dodge bonuses and some circumstance bonuses." This reiterates what was stated in the original core rulebooks, so it is pretty clear that racial bonuses do not stack in 3.5.

I honestly wish the lazy writers at WOTC would have stated explicitly when something is an untyped bonus by calling it 'untyped' and not leave people wondering if there is another rule somewhere else that assigns the type to the bonus.

Yeah, that is problematic. So... I looked at the 3.5 FAQ at WotC's website (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), and found an interesting statement about racial bonuses on page 3.

"When applying any template, treat racial traits as special qualities. If a template says the new creature retains the special qualities of the base creature, than any racial traits also are retained."

I've looked a few other places, and stacking racial bonuses seems to be 50/50 since there is nothing in the FAQ for this specific instance, other than taking the highest bonus for non stacking bonuses.

I too am not a fan of untyped anything : / Put a little superscript "s" or something for stackable bonuses.