Player issues: same story different day

[LanSlyde]

So, been playing with this group for a about 3 years now. Started with 5 people, lost two, gained 6. So we are sitting at 8 players and 1 DM.

It's a bit of a rant.

The initial DM for the group was a friend of mine that I've known for roughly 5 years, couple months after playing the game another of his friends joined up. Now, this guy prefers to be confrontational and he refuses to read to mood. He believes if you have an issue with him you should say so. While I appreciate that type of openness its created a number of issues with other members of the group. It's come to a head multiple times, but each time its been sorted out.

Suddenly I'm the DM. New campaign, I'm the type that plays fast and loose and generally lets my players do whatever they want. So this guys has taken advantage of that and has acquired gear well beyond what everyone else in the group has. What he has forgotten is that if players in my group started outpacing others (then making a point to prove it to them...) I tend to start scaling combat up to suicidal levels of difficulty.

At this point I've also become 'that DM' that split the group into two separate groups. Because two separate sessions ended in a screaming match over rules between this person and two other players, equally upset with each other.

A long rant, but what I suppose I want to know is if anyone here has any advice trying to get Mr.OP to rein himself in so I don't have to keep sending his group into suicidal encounters? Assuming I put the group back together as a whole, any thoughts on keeping various personalities from clashing?


If no ideas, what should I do to correct the problem myself?

[Story]

Does he want to outshine others specifically or to just be powerful in general? If you can get him to use his powers to support his teammates (i.e. classic God Wizard), he can optimize without making everyone else feel bad.

[CosmicOccurence]

Have you tried sitting down with him OOG and talking with him. If you can do it in person, it is a much more elegant (and friendly) way to do it. Just explain to him that he's overpowered and you want him to tone it down as its creating a group dynamic that is unbalancing. If he goes bat crazy on you, maybe he shouldn't be part of the group.

In my experience, being honest in person is a much better way to solve issues than any IG shenanigans or hints can do.

[LanSlyde]

Does he want to outshine others specifically or to just be powerful in general? If you can get him to use his powers to support his teammates (i.e. classic God Wizard), he can optimize without making everyone else feel bad.

He tends to gravitate towards the 'Large Ham' playstyle of "Look at me! I'm doing the most badass thing here!". Of course, I thinks thats mostly his personality subverting his characters.




Have you tried sitting down with him OOG and talking with him. If you can do it in person, it is a much more elegant (and friendly) way to do it. Just explain to him that he's overpowered and you want him to tone it down as its creating a group dynamic that is unbalancing. If he goes bat crazy on you, maybe he shouldn't be part of the group.

In my experience, being honest in person is a much better way to solve issues than any IG shenanigans or hints can do.


He knows how powerful he is in comparison to the rest. Hell I told him so when he first asked me if he can get all this shiny gear. He did it anyway. He doesn't really go bat crazy on people, just attempts to strongarm his way to winning the debate using rules quotes and an overbearing personality. I personally give zero ****s about it, but other people have difficulties dealing with him which is why many of the arguments he is apart of ends in shouting matches. He tends to frustrate the other people in the group.

Of course, everyone in our group has some undesirable quirk. It's just theirs are usually quieter.

[Telonius]

The problem here is out-of-character. I would advise against using in-character methods (like ratcheting up the encounter just for the one player) to solve it. The more you push that way, the more you're encouraging him to powergame; if they're barely surviving as it is, he's going to want to ascend to ever more ridiculous levels of power.

Has "the DM" gotten more items than everybody else just by making good purchases, or is he way off-kilter for WBL? Both are OOC issues, but if it's the second, the rest of the group ought to be in on the discussion.

[LanSlyde]

The problem here is out-of-character. I would advise against using in-character methods (like ratcheting up the encounter just for the one player) to solve it. The more you push that way, the more you're encouraging him to powergame; if they're barely surviving as it is, he's going to want to ascend to ever more ridiculous levels of power.

Has "the DM" gotten more items than everybody else just by making good purchases, or is he way off-kilter for WBL? Both are OOC issues, but if it's the second, the rest of the group ought to be in on the discussion.

Its mostly really good purchases, he is one of the few people in the group that has enough free time to attain system mastery, so he knows where all the really shiny toys are hidden.

[Krobar]

How did he get all the gear?

Did he just write whatever he wanted on his character sheet?

That wouldn't fly in my game. All gear purchases go through me, and either they find what they're looking for, or they don't. Of course, in my game you can't just go to any old town and buy whatever you want, either. Often, you have to track down rumors, which might or might not even be true. This is a great way to keep stuff from getting out of hand.

"After spending three weeks looking for that +5 Vorpal Keen Wounding Vicious Flaming Wraith Striking Bastard Sword... you just can't seem to find one. But ... you heard rumor of such, in the horde of a Great Red Wyrm Epic Sorcerer that you can go after if you want... the lair is probably about a thousand miles from where you are, deep in the <name of mountains> Mountains."

But since he HAS the gear... you can either take some of it through adventuring (maybe he gets taken prisoner and loses it, or something, and then only recovers part of it when he's rescued), or provide gear for the other party members as time goes on and less for him, and eventually even things out.

[Trasilor]

So, been playing with this group for a about 3 years now. Started with 5 people, lost two, gained 6. So we are sitting at 8 players and 1 DM.

It's a bit of a rant.

The initial DM for the group was a friend of mine that I've known for roughly 5 years, couple months after playing the game another of his friends joined up. Now, this guy prefers to be confrontational and he refuses to read to mood. He believes if you have an issue with him you should say so. While I appreciate that type of openness its created a number of issues with other members of the group. It's come to a head multiple times, but each time its been sorted out.

Suddenly I'm the DM. New campaign, I'm the type that plays fast and loose and generally lets my players do whatever they want. So this guys has taken advantage of that and has acquired gear well beyond what everyone else in the group has. What he has forgotten is that if players in my group started outpacing others (then making a point to prove it to them...) I tend to start scaling combat up to suicidal levels of difficulty.

At this point I've also become 'that DM' that split the group into two separate groups. Because two separate sessions ended in a screaming match over rules between this person and two other players, equally upset with each other.

A long rant, but what I suppose I want to know is if anyone here has any advice trying to get Mr.OP to rein himself in so I don't have to keep sending his group into suicidal encounters? Assuming I put the group back together as a whole, any thoughts on keeping various personalities from clashing?


If no ideas, what should I do to correct the problem myself?

I hate to say it, but you are partially to blame. You ask players to play in a sandbox and are upset at someone who wants to build the biggest baddest sandcastle they can? In the real world, you people who are content with letting the world pass them by, taking it easy and try to live the easy life. Then you have people who are aggressive and risk takers who are willing to gamble it all for the big payoff. These people can be abrasive, rude and unapologetic (think Donald Trump).

Now, that doesn't mean you have to play with them. Just understand, when you create a world that's "fast and loose" these people can exist.

Try talking to the player to "tone it down". He likes direct communication/confrontation, so be direct.

Try not to play an arms race with confrontational characters - you are the DM, you will win. If you think the character has stuff that is too powerful for them - remove the item from them. Powerful characters attract powerful enemies (which need not be TPKs). Try to be sneakier.

Regarding the rules issue - you are the DM. If it's ambiguous, you make the call. If one group has the issue wrong (interpreting something incorrectly), you inform them the correct ruling (possibly explain why they are wrong) and move on. If you make a call, and later realized you made a mistake - I suggest you correct it before your next session starts (unless you are in the middle of combat, then after combat). This is part of the DM's job - making these calls.

Question, has this player attacked other characters? I find this to be the most frustrating when DMing.

EDIT: Dang - swordsage'd like 3 times over :smallamused:

[Callin]

See thats actually something i can relate too. Me and one other person are "that guy" in our groups. We have enough free time and a crap ton of books at our disposal so we can really optimize. I cant count the number of times i have been shot down by the DM for being too powerful. Just because I made really good decisions in my build and proper magic item choices.

Even on tier 4 characters me and him can probably out do the Wizard and Cleric.
So what we have started doin is making it right on paper but down playing our damage/spells/tricks we can do. Then if it really needs to happen we bust out with GOD and then go back to downplaying.

[navar100]

Personality: Talk to the player out of game to get him to pipe it down.

Optimization: Said person is not necessarily wrong here. Instead of punishing his optimization help everyone else improve theirs. He's not overpowered. They are underpowered.

[Sith_Happens]

Optimization: Said person is not necessarily wrong here. Instead of punishing his optimization help everyone else improve theirs. He's not overpowered. They are underpowered.

This. More specifically, if the problem is that he has more/better shinies than everyone else (which it seems to be), just give the rest of the players some extra shinies.

[LanSlyde]

How did he get all the gear?

Did he just write whatever he wanted on his character sheet?

That wouldn't fly in my game. All gear purchases go through me, and either they find what they're looking for, or they don't. Of course, in my game you can't just go to any old town and buy whatever you want, either. Often, you have to track down rumors, which might or might not even be true. This is a great way to keep stuff from getting out of hand.

"After spending three weeks looking for that +5 Vorpal Keen Wounding Vicious Flaming Wraith Striking Bastard Sword... you just can't seem to find one. But ... you heard rumor of such, in the horde of a Great Red Wyrm Epic Sorcerer that you can go after if you want... the lair is probably about a thousand miles from where you are, deep in the <name of mountains> Mountains."

But since he HAS the gear... you can either take some of it through adventuring (maybe he gets taken prisoner and loses it, or something, and then only recovers part of it when he's rescued), or provide gear for the other party members as time goes on and less for him, and eventually even things out.

The reason he has all that shiny gear is mostly because he has swapped characters twice in the past month, bringing in new characters at full WBL, where is group is currently under their WBL. They are at the end of a campaign arc and on a time limit, they will get full WBL as soon as they kill the BBEG (or die trying).

I generally allow any gear you can afford at character creation and downtime between missions. Its just when your in the middle of major plot development is when I don't give them time to go on a shopping spree at Magic Mart.




I hate to say it, but you are partially to blame. You ask players to play in a sandbox and are upset at someone who wants to build the biggest baddest sandcastle they can? In the real world, you people who are content with letting the world pass them by, taking it easy and try to live the easy life. Then you have people who are aggressive and risk takers who are willing to gamble it all for the big payoff. These people can be abrasive, rude and unapologetic (think Donald Trump).

Now, that doesn't mean you have to play with them. Just understand, when you create a world that's "fast and loose" these people can exist.

Try talking to the player to "tone it down". He likes direct communication/confrontation, so be direct.

Try not to play an arms race with confrontational characters - you are the DM, you will win. If you think the character has stuff that is too powerful for them - remove the item from them. Powerful characters attract powerful enemies (which need not be TPKs). Try to be sneakier.

Regarding the rules issue - you are the DM. If it's ambiguous, you make the call. If one group has the issue wrong (interpreting something incorrectly), you inform them the correct ruling (possibly explain why they are wrong) and move on. If you make a call, and later realized you made a mistake - I suggest you correct it before your next session starts (unless you are in the middle of combat, then after combat). This is part of the DM's job - making these calls.

Question, has this player attacked other characters? I find this to be the most frustrating when DMing.

EDIT: Dang - swordsage'd like 3 times over :smallamused:

But the thing is, its not a sandcastle, they are currently in an area that has extremely limited resources. This guy basically brought High Arcana into a campaign arc where the most everyone had was +1 weapons. Granted, as soon as they finished this Arc they could have bought whatever they wanted. He came to me and asked if he could bring in a new character at full WBL. I said yes, but I also explained what that would mean for him and the rest. But I suppose I am partially to blame.

I suppose I could just tell him to tone it down...

As for the arms race, I suppose it needs to be in context. Basically his group took too long on a particular task, so the BBEG ended up regaining his phenomenal cosmic powers. So now they have a supremely powerful opponent and he's complaining about it.

Regarding rules, I have always rendered final judgment. But everyone in the groups age range is 18 - 27. So if they get in a shouting match I'm not going to smack their hands and tell them to play nice. :smallannoyed:

Finally, yes he has attacked other characters. In our current campaign he has been surprised by one of them and taken a shot at him 'because its how my character would reaction in this situation'. In the previous campaign another character stumbled upon a bag of rubies meant to be the WBL for the whole group (found out after the fact). She ended up being greedy and keeping them for herself because only she and one other member even knew they existed. The player in quests was playing some time of homebrew stealth class (ninja something). Basically he takes the opportunity to rob us all of our shiny gems and gold during the night. After the DM at the time informed us that the rubies were our WBL he ended up 'redistributing' the loot equally. Basically one person was greedy and kept it all to herself, then this guys decides to steal from all of us, then after the DM stepped in he gave back everyone near equal shares. He held back roughly 1000gp from each persons share and added it to his own.

[LanSlyde]

Personality: Talk to the player out of game to get him to pipe it down.

Optimization: Said person is not necessarily wrong here. Instead of punishing his optimization help everyone else improve theirs. He's not overpowered. They are underpowered.

Quite frankly I don't have the time to optimize a group of 8. If I did their would be no issue. I'll try getting him to help them tho, might straighten things out.

[LanSlyde]

This. More specifically, if the problem is that he has more/better shinies than everyone else (which it seems to be), just give the rest of the players some extra shinies.

Like I said, he brought in a new character at full WBL, I told him their would be consequences. He was OK with it. The rest of his group will get their WBL after the Arc is over. Which will be next session. Until then he's big dog. But I am not gimping my BBEG because of it.

[nedz]

You should have done a character equipment audit and allowed the new character to have the average wealth. Also you should have audited the new PCs kit.

Too late now, but PCs die sometimes.

[Krobar]

Like I said, he brought in a new character at full WBL, I told him their would be consequences. He was OK with it. The rest of his group will get their WBL after the Arc is over. Which will be next session. Until then he's big dog. But I am not gimping my BBEG because of it.

That sounds like a solid approach to me. You let him do it, he knows there will be consequences and was okay with that. You let him be big dog, so you can't go back on that now - all you can do without causing hard feelings is take care of it when everyone else gets up to snuff on the WBL, and ask him to make some gear suggestions for everyone, since he seems to know what he's doing picking out his gear.

[Stormageddon]

The reason he has all that shiny gear is mostly because he has swapped characters twice in the past month, bringing in new characters at full WBL, where is group is currently under their WBL. They are at the end of a campaign arc and on a time limit, they will get full WBL as soon as they kill the BBEG (or die trying).

I generally allow any gear you can afford at character creation and downtime between missions. Its just when your in the middle of major plot development is when I don't give them time to go on a shopping spree at Magic Mart.


Your problem is right here! He's not overpowered due to anything but following the rules. As DM you have every right to limit your PC's WBL. I would suggest that next time he swaps out characters you look at every characters items, and figure out a average starting wealth for that person's new character that is on par with the rest of the group.

Think of WBL as a suggested not a rule.

Maybe hand out somethings shiny to the rest of the group members to even things out? I don't know it's a tricky one because if the problem PC keeps getting the same reward as the rest of the group he's always going to be one step ahead of everyone else.

[Stormageddon]

That sounds like a solid approach to me. You let him do it, he knows there will be consequences and was okay with that. You let him be big dog, so you can't go back on that now - all you can do without causing hard feelings is take care of it when everyone else gets up to snuff on the WBL, and ask him to make some gear suggestions for everyone, since he seems to know what he's doing picking out his gear.

Damn ninja's

[JusticeZero]

Never ever ever tone difficulties up in response to a 2owergamer. It gets everyone xp and the like faster and rewards them because now everyone knows that the minmaxer is basically powerleveling everyone.

Instead, crank encounters DOWN. Any single foe emphasizes how awesome the PG is. Use lots of goblins with shortbows instead. The Wizard could thrash them in melee without magic. The powergamer is just playing whack-a-mole same as everyone else. Give lots of RP and the like.

[Sith_Happens]

Like I said, he brought in a new character at full WBL, I told him their would be consequences. He was OK with it. The rest of his group will get their WBL after the Arc is over. Which will be next session. Until then he's big dog. But I am not gimping my BBEG because of it.

So you're saying the issue is going to resolve itself extremely soon already? Then what part do you need our advice for?:smallconfused:

[LanSlyde]

Never ever ever tone difficulties up in response to a 2owergamer. It gets everyone xp and the like faster and rewards them because now everyone knows that the minmaxer is basically powerleveling everyone.

Instead, crank encounters DOWN. Any single foe emphasizes how awesome the PG is. Use lots of goblins with shortbows instead. The Wizard could thrash them in melee without magic. The powergamer is just playing whack-a-mole same as everyone else. Give lots of RP and the like.

You misunderstand, I'm not toning anything up in response to him being a good player, I'm toning things up in response to his group getting a little sidetracked by minions that posed no immediate threat to their mission. This allowed the BBEG to complete his ritual and regain his lost power. If you could say anything I am increasing the difficulty in response to their groups bloodlust.


So you're saying the issue is going to resolve itself extremely soon already? Then what part do you need our advice for?:smallconfused:

Because this is a recurring theme, not just an isolated incident. Certain personalities within our group can't cooperate, this leads to rules debates, which leads to shouting, which leads to poor moods. Somewhere along the lines someone ends up powergaming and trying to outdo their teammates. Trying to come up with ways to avoid this without going all "Stalin the DM" on people.

[navar100]

Finally, yes he has attacked other characters. In our current campaign he has been surprised by one of them and taken a shot at him 'because its how my character would reaction in this situation'. In the previous campaign another character stumbled upon a bag of rubies meant to be the WBL for the whole group (found out after the fact). She ended up being greedy and keeping them for herself because only she and one other member even knew they existed. The player in quests was playing some time of homebrew stealth class (ninja something). Basically he takes the opportunity to rob us all of our shiny gems and gold during the night. After the DM at the time informed us that the rubies were our WBL he ended up 'redistributing' the loot equally. Basically one person was greedy and kept it all to herself, then this guys decides to steal from all of us, then after the DM stepped in he gave back everyone near equal shares. He held back roughly 1000gp from each persons share and added it to his own.

Never mind. I take everything back. The player is a Real Jerk after all. He controls his character. The bolded part is never a proper defense to be a donkey cavity. You control your character's actions. You decide what your character does. It's your choice if you are playing as a female dog having sex.

You as DM are enabling him. Stop enabling him because he's "roleplaying". He's not "roleplaying". He's an ass.

[Musco]

If it bothers you, don't game with that person. It's really that simple. I can see no other reason why you should have to be bothered by it. You don't have to like every single person you meet in your life for doing every form of activity there is together. It's ok to not like to RPG with someone because of how their personality plays out on a table.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would actually recommend a break from 3.5 once the group fights the bigbad. Sounds like the party needs to go through a mindset change. Have you considered a short stint in another system? I find that my DND groups work together much better and reign in the powergaming if I have them play in a less world shattering power system like nWoD every once in a while. When you play one system for too long you start playing the game itself rather than using that game to play together.

I suggest something horror, where the players are weak and forced to work together or die horridly. Shadow run, Cathullu, or nWoD Hunters would all work well. Give them a good bonding experience before arcing into the next plot for DnD.

[LanSlyde]

I would actually recommend a break from 3.5 once the group fights the bigbad. Sounds like the party needs to go through a mindset change. Have you considered a short stint in another system? I find that my DND groups work together much better and reign in the powergaming if I have them play in a less world shattering power system like nWoD every once in a while. When you play one system for too long you start playing the game itself rather than using that game to play together.

I suggest something horror, where the players are weak and forced to work together or die horridly. Shadow run, Cathullu, or nWoD Hunters would all work well. Give them a good bonding experience before arcing into the next plot for DnD.

Well, I haven't exactly been honest with you guys. Currently we aren't playing 3.5, every other campaign has been 3.5, but people got bored, so I'm running a Dark Heresy game. So basically the issue is persisting regardless of the system. I simply have been using D&D terms like WBL to keep it simple.


If it bothers you, don't game with that person. It's really that simple. I can see no other reason why you should have to be bothered by it. You don't have to like every single person you meet in your life for doing every form of activity there is together. It's ok to not like to RPG with someone because of how their personality plays out on a table.

Well here's the issue with that. He's fine in small doses, but if I decide to stop associating with him I'll end up alienating our mutual friends that I enjoy the company of.

[Callin]

Not to derail but you are starting to sound like a friend of mines wife. She dont care for his best friend at all. They way you describe that guy is the same way this guy is.

And yes he is in our DnD group. Yes he acts like that. I dont know how we deal with it but we do lol. Some fights have happened over the last decade but we resolve em or time does. Then its back to business as usual.

[Stormageddon]

You misunderstand, I'm not toning anything up in response to him being a good player, I'm toning things up in response to his group getting a little sidetracked by minions that posed no immediate threat to their mission. This allowed the BBEG to complete his ritual and regain his lost power. If you could say anything I am increasing the difficulty in response to their groups bloodlust.



Because this is a recurring theme, not just an isolated incident. Certain personalities within our group can't cooperate, this leads to rules debates, which leads to shouting, which leads to poor moods. Somewhere along the lines someone ends up powergaming and trying to outdo their teammates. Trying to come up with ways to avoid this without going all "Stalin the DM" on people.

Is it always the same guy over and over again trying to break the game, or the whole group? Are the same two people always getting in to it?

Would the people you're playing with ever be friends outside of game?

My advice is for you to is that it sounds like you got a lot of strong personalities in your group. End debates at your table. If a rule argument springs up in game, tell the people that you don't know the rule, but for the sake of the game you're going to make a decision. Tell the players that if they still feel they are right they can either come talk to you after game or send you an E-mail. Tell them that when they talk to you to have a citation to the rule they are questioning. If they are right you can can give a small reward or try to correct the mistake in the future. Oh and announce to the group if you find your ruling was wrong at the next game, and that X player was right.

Hopefully the goal will be to end the argument until after game. Redirect attention back to the game. End arguments before shouting begins, and quicken the speed of the game.

Also try reminding people that there is no such thing as "winning D&D."

[LanSlyde]

Is it always the same guy over and over again trying to break the game, or the whole group? Are the same two people always getting in to it?

Would the people you're playing with ever be friends outside of game?

My advice is for you to is that it sounds like you got a lot of strong personalities in your group. End debates at your table. If a rule argument springs up in game, tell the people that you don't know the rule, but for the sake of the game you're going to make a decision. Tell the players that if they still feel they are right they can either come talk to you after game or send you an E-mail. Tell them that when they talk to you to have a citation to the rule they are questioning. If they are right you can can give a small reward or try to correct the mistake in the future. Oh and announce to the group if you find your ruling was wrong at the next game, and that X player was right.

Hopefully the goal will be to end the argument until after game. Redirect attention back to the game. End arguments before shouting begins, and quicken the speed of the game.

Also try reminding people that there is no such thing as "winning D&D."

Aside from myself, their are two people in the group with enough system mastery to easily break any campaign, myself, our original DM, and his friend, the one that prompted this posting.

As for people getting in to it, kinda sorta? He has always been involved to some degree. I like said, certain personalities in our group just can't cooperate. Each person in the group is friends with at least one other group member outside the group.

I suppose I'll just have to start telling people to shut up and calm down.

[Arbane]

Finally, yes he has attacked other characters. In our current campaign he has been surprised by one of them and taken a shot at him 'because its how my character would reaction in this situation'.

"So make a new character who's not such an idiot."


In the previous campaign another character stumbled upon a bag of rubies meant to be the WBL for the whole group (found out after the fact). She ended up being greedy and keeping them for herself because only she and one other member even knew they existed. The player in quests was playing some time of homebrew stealth class (ninja something). Basically he takes the opportunity to rob us all of our shiny gems and gold during the night. After the DM at the time informed us that the rubies were our WBL he ended up 'redistributing' the loot equally. Basically one person was greedy and kept it all to herself, then this guys decides to steal from all of us, then after the DM stepped in he gave back everyone near equal shares. He held back roughly 1000gp from each persons share and added it to his own.

And the others didn't gank him and split up his loot? Truly, they have the patience of saints.

[russdm]

What about what happens when he died before? Why didn't the party divide his gear amongst themselves since he was bringing a new character in? Thats what the parties i have been part of have always done when someone dies. We divvy up the dead character's gear and sell it if they are not going to be rezzed somehow. the party should be doing that too since the dead character doesn't need their stuff anymore.

[Fouredged Sword]

Both Dark Heresy is a game that seeds mistrust in a group. It's built into the system.

Maybe a stint of werewolf would get them thinking as a group again.

[LanSlyde]

"So make a new character who's not such an idiot."

Indeed.

And the others didn't gank him and split up his loot? Truly, they have the patience of saints.

Well, technically our characters never found out it was his character that did it. So to avoid metagaming we did not act on the info. Even tho most of the party totally wanted to.


What about what happens when he died before? Why didn't the party divide his gear amongst themselves since he was bringing a new character in? Thats what the parties i have been part of have always done when someone dies. We divvy up the dead character's gear and sell it if they are not going to be rezzed somehow. the party should be doing that too since the dead character doesn't need their stuff anymore.

Well, he never died, just got bored with his character choice.


Both Dark Heresy is a game that seeds mistrust in a group. It's built into the system.

Maybe a stint of werewolf would get them thinking as a group again.

Yes it does, I've been called a sick man because when the group starts accusing each other of heresy I just sit in my DM corner and perform this deep guttural laughter that eventually builds up to Mark Hamils "Joker" laugh.

[Jornophelanthas]

Well, he never died, just got bored with his character choice.

The point still stands. If he retires a character to start a new one, why would the retired character pass on all of his worldly possessions to the newcomer? Wouldn't the retired character want to keep his riches/equipment/magic/whatever to build a new life / save for a rainy day?

Basically, you allowed this player to have about twice the WBL of anyone else, because you fell into the logical fallacy that character possessions are by definition player possessions. They are not.

The fair decision would have been:
"If you're bored with your character, you can let him/her ride off into the sunset and start a new one. You get standard WBL for the new character. The old character takes all his possessions with him/her, and only leaves behind any plot items for the rest of the group. No, you don't get to keep the plot items, but I may give you a new one to give you a way to get involved with the story / the other players, at my sole discretion. Is all this okay with you?"
If he says no, then don't allow a new character.

My advice to you is to lay this down as a general rule for ALL players, in order to avoid future situations of "wealth by boredom".

(Also, if the player gets creative and argues that the new character is the old character's favourite cousin/niece/brother-in-law and they share everything, you should respond that any equipment the new character "inherits" from the old character is simply deducted from the new character's starting wealth.)

[Darius Kane]

The point still stands. If he retires a character to start a new one, why would the retired character pass on all of his worldly possessions to the newcomer?
Except he didn't. :smallconfused: The new PC had his own gear.

[LanSlyde]

Except he didn't. :smallconfused: The new PC had his own gear.

I was about to defend that, but then I noticed you already did. Thanks. :smallsmile:

[Jornophelanthas]

Ok, I guess I misread the thread then. I apologize for jumping to the wrong conclusions.

[TheDarkSaint]

I run a SciFi club at the school I teach at and on Fridays, my middle schoolers come in after school to roleplay.

Many of them are awkward and learning how to socialize and the behavior your describe sounds fairly typical of a 12-13 year old. When I run games for them, or when I train high schoolers to DM for a group, I have them all, whether they need it or not, run through this excercise.

"What did I do last time to make the game fun for someone else. What can I do this time to make the game fun for someone new?"

They have to answer those two questions, usually written down as a goal, before I will let them play.

This has worked WONDERS in the games. It encourages shy kids to participate since they want to help out and to make the game fun for. For the brash, over the top kids, it helps them not focus on others instead of themselves.

For heavy optimizers, I highly suggest putting them in roles where they are in charge of giving buffs to the party instead of being the primary damage dealers.

If you use these ideas, you may want to change them a bit to work with adults so it doesn't feel like you are being patronizing, but I think they could really be effective.

Good luck!

[LanSlyde]

I run a SciFi club at the school I teach at and on Fridays, my middle schoolers come in after school to roleplay.

Many of them are awkward and learning how to socialize and the behavior your describe sounds fairly typical of a 12-13 year old. When I run games for them, or when I train high schoolers to DM for a group, I have them all, whether they need it or not, run through this excercise.

"What did I do last time to make the game fun for someone else. What can I do this time to make the game fun for someone new?"

They have to answer those two questions, usually written down as a goal, before I will let them play.

This has worked WONDERS in the games. It encourages shy kids to participate since they want to help out and to make the game fun for. For the brash, over the top kids, it helps them not focus on others instead of themselves.

For heavy optimizers, I highly suggest putting them in roles where they are in charge of giving buffs to the party instead of being the primary damage dealers.

If you use these ideas, you may want to change them a bit to work with adults so it doesn't feel like you are being patronizing, but I think they could really be effective.

Good luck!

I could not help but lol at the bolded part. That said, their has been an airing of grievances and things should get better. But before that I need to address the other members behavior issues.

I like your ideas tho. Also, gg on teaching the next generation good TTRPG etiquette.