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View Full Version : Building the "Indestructible" Dwarf Tank {3.5}



Tokuhara
2013-03-15, 02:46 PM
I need help making a High AC, High Defenses, High HP Dwarf doorstop.

I'm looking at a Crusader chassis with grabs of Dwarf Paragon, Deepwarden, and Deepstone Sentinel. I know conventional wisdom is to use crowd control/special maneuvers to stop enemies, but the idea was to be a big solid metal wall between the bad guys and my friends.

So two major questions:

1. How should I arrange my levels, feats, and maneuvers to get the intended effect?

2. What dwarf subrace in Faerun would be my best option?

Pesimismrocks
2013-03-15, 02:54 PM
2 levels of deepwarden

2 levels of sword sage.

The dwarf would get his con bonus to ac and with certain many events he could make concentration checks instead if reflex and will (Moment if perfect mind and Action before thought) Barbarians make the best base tanks.

Endurance, Diehard, Steadfast Determination are good tank feats. Perhaps great fortitude as well.

CaladanMoonblad
2013-03-15, 02:57 PM
Let's start with dwarven race...

In Faerun, there are Shield Dwarves (base), Gold Dwarves (+2 Con -2 Dex), and Gray Dwarf (+2 LA due to magic abilities).

To my mind, I'd go with the base dwarf. Who needs Cha for a dwarf tank? But Dex and mithral full plate can go together (up to +3). While you're at it, get a Mithral Tower Shield and talk your DM into letting up on the -2 attack penalty because its encumbrance of 22.5 lbs is closer to a Heavy Steel Shield's 15 lbs (a normal tower shield is 45 lbs, 3x that of a heavy steel shield).

You get dwarven war axe for a racial feat, so that's your 1d10 one handed weapon.

Add feats as needed to make your prestige classes.

Sgt. Cookie
2013-03-15, 03:05 PM
Depending on cheese tolerance, the Symbiote Template used in conjunction with the Dread Blossom Swarm can give you plant and swarm immunities and regeneration 5 fire/cold. Add a level of Barbarian with the feats Blazing and Frozen beserker and Extra Rage at least once, and you can become immune to fire/cold damage while raging. You can do all that as an ECL 2 character.

Symbiote is from Savage Species
Dread Blossom Swarm is from Monster Manual III
Blazing/Frozen beserker are from Sandstorm/Frostburn respectively
Extra rage is from... Complete Adventurer?

Tokuhara
2013-03-15, 03:45 PM
I was originally looking at:

Crusader 2/Dwarf Paragon 3/Deepwarden 2/Warblade 2/Deepstone Sentinel 10/X 1

Darrin
2013-03-15, 03:54 PM
1. How should I arrange my levels, feats, and maneuvers to get the intended effect?


Hmm. How about:

Crusader 2/Dwarf Paragon 3/Deepwarden 2/Crusader +3/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Crusader +5

Feats:
1) Stone Power
3) Endurance
6) Steadfast Determination (PHBII)
9) Quick Recovery (Lords of Madness)
12) Shards of Granite
15) Cleave
18) Martial Stance: Immortal Fortitude



2. What dwarf subrace in Faerun would be my best option?

Earth Dwarf (Unearthed Arcana p. 16): +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Cha. Racial bonus on stonecutting, appraise, and craft checks doubles to +4. Stability doubles to +8.

However... Dragonborn of Bahumat is also tempting for the +2 Con. That and "Fire-Breathing Dwarf" has a certain ring to it. If you go this route, then subrace shouldn't matter much.

I'd also try to add the Mineral Warrior template (if LA buyoff is available) for DR 8/adamantine.

Kuulvheysoon
2013-03-15, 04:19 PM
I was originally looking at:

Crusader 2/Dwarf Paragon 3/Deepwarden 2/Warblade 2/Deepstone Sentinel 10/X 1

Isn't Deepstone Sentinel only 5 levels long? How are you getting 10 levels out of it?

If you can squeeze in 4 ranks of both Knowledge (Religion) and Sense Motive you can nab Witch Slayer (ToM). 2 levels get you Mettle (Su), while a 4 level investment gets you Slippery Mind (Ex).

@CaladanMoonblade - Funny, because both my XPH and my MM gives Duergar a +1 LA, not a +2.

Tokuhara
2013-03-15, 04:54 PM
Isn't Deepstone Sentinel only 5 levels long? How are you getting 10 levels out of it?

If you can squeeze in 4 ranks of both Knowledge (Religion) and Sense Motive you can nab Witch Slayer (ToM). 2 levels get you Mettle (Su), while a 4 level investment gets you Slippery Mind (Ex).

@CaladanMoonblade - Funny, because both my XPH and my MM gives Duergar a +1 LA, not a +2.

Sadly, I was AFB when I wrote that particular reply.

As for the Subrace, I want the Most Bang for My Buck on a 28pb (sorry. was half asleep when I wrote the opener), so since I'll be "living" in the heavy armor category and crusader benefits from a non-negative charisma, I'm going to be heavily weighing the Dec/Charisma penalty.


And Witch Hunter may come in handy. Other ideas with decidedly dwarf flavour?

Seharvepernfan
2013-03-16, 02:27 AM
18) Martial Stance: Immortal Fortitude


Whatever you do, make sure you end up with this stance.

Tokuhara
2013-03-16, 08:11 AM
I intend to, since that stance is pure money.

And the goal is to pick up the "dwarf-y" schools (devoted spirit, stone dragon, iron heart) and do my tanking thing as a great wall.

And witch slayer is likely a no-go, since ToM is one book the DM is leery of, since it contains Truenamer (a class he says can take his campaigns to a place they cannot recover from), he's saying to not use the book if it can be avoided.

So that gives me this so far:

Crusader 2/Dwarf Paragon 3/Deepwarden 2/Warblade 2/X 1/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Y 5

Likely, this'll be on either a Gold, Fireblood, or Earth dwarf.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2013-03-16, 09:12 AM
What are you getting from Dwarf Paragon 3, besides a +2 Con? Is it worth an investment of three levels to get +1 hp/level over an alternative like Fighter 1 with Improved Toughness for the same benefit?

Consider taking Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) for the Heart aspect with the feat Entangling Exhalation to make it difficult for opponents to get past you. Get Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) (after Dragonborn so you don't lose anything it grants) and buy off the level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). You'll lose your armored movement to dragonborn, but you can get the Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm) and it won't even be noticeable.

Darrin
2013-03-16, 09:13 AM
Crusader 2/Dwarf Paragon 3/Deepwarden 2/Warblade 2/X 1/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Y 5


Be careful of your Initiator Level. If you take Warblade 2, your IL at ECL 18 is only 14.5, and you can't get 9th level maneuvers at ECL 20. What exactly do you need the Warblade for?

Xerxus
2013-03-16, 11:52 AM
You know something is wrong with 3.5 when the best dwarven defender isn't a Dwarven Defender.

Flickerdart
2013-03-16, 12:13 PM
If you want to just be a big chunk of HP and defenses and aren't willing to use battlefield control or other ways of forcing people to attack you and not your more vulnerable allies, at least find a way to boost your size.

Tokuhara
2013-03-16, 02:04 PM
@ Biffoniacus Furio: From Dwarf Paragon, I'm getting the 2 Con, Better Darkvison, and Save Boosters (+1 vs. Spells & Poisons).

And while Dragonborn is hot, the big goal is to Be a Dwarf. Dragonborn is like adding a shot of Bacardi 151 rum to a perfectly balanced dirty martini. Plus, we have no Level Adjustment buyoff. Instead, the DM is giving an accelerated level up for players of High LA races.

@ Darrin: Warblade is for Iron Heart maneuvers and 2d12 HP. Pure and simple.

@Flickerdart: Again, my plan is to stance out and force enemies to go through me. Plus, the DM tends to have creatures attack he who is in heavy armor. Unless of course someone in the party (like the Courtier [3rd party class from Rokugan who is entirely focused on being Diplomancy and going to have Vow of Peace and Nonviolence. He's looking at Courtesan 6/Emissary of Brachiel 10/Courtesan 4]) decides to try and engage in melee, then he will happily punish that player for not letting the doorstop do his job.

Dr.Epic
2013-03-16, 02:05 PM
It should be a monk!

Tokuhara
2013-03-16, 02:06 PM
It should be a monk!

What??? Really? Huh? I'm Confused...

Greenish
2013-03-16, 02:09 PM
@Flickerdart: Again, my plan is to stance out and force enemies to go through me. Plus, the DM tends to have creatures attack he who is in heavy armor. Unless of course someone in the party (like the Courtier [3rd party class from Rokugan who is entirely focused on being Diplomancy and going to have Vow of Peace and Nonviolence. He's looking at Courtesan 6/Emissary of Brachiel 10/Courtesan 4]) decides to try and engage in melee, then he will happily punish that player for not letting the doorstop do his job.If you've got Emissary of Barachiel to auto-stun and brainwash everyone, what do you need a meat shield for? :smalltongue:

Also how is going to melee stopping the doorstop from doing his work? I mean, if the tank can't do his thing without preventing all other melees from doing theirs, isn't that something of a failing?

Tokuhara
2013-03-16, 02:27 PM
If you've got Emissary of Barachiel to auto-stun and brainwash everyone, what do you need a meat shield for? :smalltongue:

Also how is going to melee stopping the doorstop from doing his work? I mean, if the tank can't do his thing without preventing all other melees from doing theirs, isn't that something of a failing?

Because his character is a coward. He's skinning the noble court themed Courtesan as a member of a merchant class.

And we have two heavy damage dealers

Greenish
2013-03-16, 02:31 PM
And we have two heavy damage dealersWhat does that have to do with anything?

Flickerdart
2013-03-16, 02:36 PM
Again, my plan is to stance out and force enemies to go through me. Right, but how do you plan to force them to go through you and not tumble, fly, teleport, jump, incorporeally fly, or burrow around you?

Tokuhara
2013-03-16, 02:52 PM
@ Greenish: I don't have to worry about being the big damage guy, since the Half-Ogre Fighter and the Goliath Barbarian will be doing the majority of the damage

@ Flickerdart: Creatures in my DM's game tend to swing at players based on who is the most heavily armored.

Flickerdart
2013-03-16, 03:03 PM
Relying on your DM's charity is no way to plan a strategy. What do you imagine will happen once your enemies (or your DM) realizes that attacking your character doesn't get them anywhere? Once the enemies get smart, what do you have left?

Greenish
2013-03-16, 03:07 PM
@ Greenish: I don't have to worry about being the big damage guy, since the Half-Ogre Fighter and the Goliath Barbarian will be doing the majority of the damage.But you said that you can't do your job if other characters are in melee, and those sure sound like melee builds to me.


[Edit]: Well, to be fair, if the DM consistently targets the heaviest armoured character, it's not a bad tactic. Except for being hilariously metagamey, of course.

Ardantis
2013-03-16, 04:16 PM
Hilariously metagamey, indeed.

I see the points of Flickerdart and Greenish. Be sure to grab the Thicket of Blades stance, the Stand Still feat, and consider a ghost touch reach weapon with some sort of size enhancement (persisted enlarge person enchantment).

On the other hand, sometimes what you look like and feel like as a character do matter. Characters who do not portray their battlefield intention can get mistaken for something they're not. Being "as dwarfey as possible" will certainly let his teammates know what his role in combat is, as well as (hilariously) his DM.

As Freud said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

Toy Killer
2013-03-16, 05:00 PM
Furthermore, I feel that the game is designed for PCs to do things they want to do in combat. There are a hundred ways around a monster in D&D because of the fact that PCs need to move around them. Giving the NPCs arbitrary reasons to evade and bound past enemies seems to me the DM is playing against the PCs, not with them.

Sure, the wizard is a more dangerous target then the Full Plate Dwarven Fighter, but If I'm a hobgoblin (Notable for their tactical mindsets), my goal is to eliminate the enemy. If the Full Plate Dwarven fighter is in my way, I'm going to take him out first on the simple basis that he is an enemy target and in my way of the primary objective. I have difficulty believing that Warrior boot camp teaches the intricacy of somersaulting and flipping past the enemy. It's a fools gambit in warfare, and PCs (At least in my Games) are rare (or else the world would be clear of goblins, kobalds and Orcs). They are prepared for open field warfare, warriors and adepts, not dealing with Legendary worthy foes.

Things that aren't tactically savvy are even harder to believe, I don't find a Bulette seriously considering it's target based on the danger present. Maybe it would want the frail looking thing hiding in the back (Thinning the herd in a sense) but if it were that cautious to not get killed... wouldn't it try for something else instead? Animals tend to travel in packs for protection and I would figure a Bulette to 'see' 5 humans as being too much trouble, when they could go to a farmstead and weed out a straggling cow here and there for more food and less trouble.

TL;DR: Just because you can play 'tactically' against your players, doesn't mean it should be the norm. Save it for truly brilliant strategists and elite encounters.

Flickerdart
2013-03-16, 05:17 PM
Sure, the wizard is a more dangerous target then the Full Plate Dwarven Fighter, but If I'm a hobgoblin (Notable for their tactical mindsets), my goal is to eliminate the enemy. If the Full Plate Dwarven fighter is in my way, I'm going to take him out first on the simple basis that he is an enemy target and in my way of the primary objective.
Then you would make a lousy hobgoblin. If you can easily avoid him, and he is no threat to you (compared to, say, one of the two glass cannons also in melee with you) you should not keep focusing on the big fat tank with a much smaller damage output and direct your efforts towards actually reducing the enemy's ability to wound you.

Malroth
2013-03-16, 05:17 PM
well predators attack the weakest looking target in a herd out of instinct and habit and wouldn't think a group of 5 two legged meat things with 4 strong ones and 1 weak one in the back was paticularly noteworthy or dangerous and would probably try to eat the weak 2 legged meat thing in the back then retreat. As for a hobgoblin war band it'd be common sense to attempt to eliminate the enemy "archery" (the lightly armoured guys with the crossbows in the back) first before using their own ranged attacks to wear down the front line melee even if they were fresh out of bootcamp raw recruits who diddn't know that casters were the bigger threat.

Tokuhara
2013-03-16, 07:25 PM
The big point here is that while the Wizard is the biggest real threat, the three thumpies up front pounding their faces appear to be the greatest threats in comparison to the cleric and druid who are in the back, the druid simply shooting arrows and the cleric acting like a healbot.

Flickerdart
2013-03-16, 07:27 PM
The big point here is that while the Wizard is the biggest real threat, the three thumpies up front pounding their faces appear to be the greatest threats in comparison to the cleric and druid who are in the back, the druid simply shooting arrows and the cleric acting like a healbot.
Yeah, and which of the three thumpies would you attack? The one clad in three inches of steel that presents minimal offensive threat, or one of the other two that are absolutely wrecking you and your buddies with their powerful attacks, and yet are very vulnerable themselves?

ArcturusV
2013-03-16, 07:43 PM
Exactly as Flickerdart is getting at.

It's why if I'm playing a "tank" type I often have to think of weird things. Usually the go to is something like a character based on taking readied actions with combat manuevers like charging bull rushes or charging overruns. So at least that way when your enemy goes, "Hmm... it'd e really easy to shank that other guy and take him out of the fight" you can go Nope, use your readied action, and punt them out of the way or knock them on their ass.

Anyway, point being I see that you need to gear your build less towards being able to take damage, and more towards being able to say "nope" by interrupting and inflicting effects that prevent an enemy from attacking as planned. Punting them out of melee with a bull rush, knocking them flat on their ass in the middle of a move towards your teammate, etc.

Tokuhara
2013-03-16, 07:45 PM
Yeah, and which of the three thumpies would you attack? The one clad in three inches of steel that presents minimal offensive threat, or one of the other two that are absolutely wrecking you and your buddies with their powerful attacks, and yet are very vulnerable themselves?

The other two are wearing medium armor, but coincidentally have higher dexterity than me, so all three are equal threats (one is using a greatclub, one is using a big hammer, and the third has an axe that should be used two handed)

Edit: and I'm grabbing Combat Reflexes to AoO people who walk past me.

Flickerdart
2013-03-16, 08:25 PM
The other two are wearing medium armor, but coincidentally have higher dexterity than me, so all three are equal threats (one is using a greatclub, one is using a big hammer, and the third has an axe that should be used two handed).
Two of you are focused on damage and one of you is tanking. You are definitely not equal threats.

ArcturusV
2013-03-16, 08:38 PM
Well, the reason I mention things like Bull Rush and Overrun, Trip, etc. Is not just for the AoO, but for the actual Interruption of their actions and burning their Action Economy up. Because a standard attack doesn't actually interrupt anything. Other than forcing a check for spellcasting if they got hit and weren't casting defensively for some reason.

So they want to run past you. You attack them a few times, at best. But it doesn't actually stop them from running past you. You need to do something like trip them, knock them with a bull rush, or even just use a readied action charge to move in the way of their movement, etc, to break up their action and effectively stop them.

Least as I understand it. Otherwise all you're doing is just taking a few swings at someone and hoping you deal enough damage to kill them as they charge past you. Best case scenario.

Greenish
2013-03-16, 08:47 PM
Well, the reason I mention things like Bull Rush and Overrun, Trip, etc. Is not just for the AoO, but for the actual Interruption of their actions and burning their Action Economy up. Because a standard attack doesn't actually interrupt anything. Other than forcing a check for spellcasting if they got hit and weren't casting defensively for some reason.

So they want to run past you. You attack them a few times, at best. But it doesn't actually stop them from running past you. You need to do something like trip them, knock them with a bull rush, or even just use a readied action charge to move in the way of their movement, etc, to break up their action and effectively stop them.

Least as I understand it. Otherwise all you're doing is just taking a few swings at someone and hoping you deal enough damage to kill them as they charge past you. Best case scenario.Well, Stand Still is pretty handy.

ArcturusV
2013-03-16, 08:54 PM
Forgot about that one. But it sounds like it's necessarily harder to pull off (Gotta hit, then make them fail a reflex save), than it necessarily would be to just punt them. Plus the punting is generally useful in other ways.

Flickerdart
2013-03-16, 09:01 PM
Imp. Trip + Knockdown + Knockback. Hit them, free trip attempt, hit them again, free bull rush attempt. Combine with a ToB maneuver to really make those readied standard actions hurt.

Greenish
2013-03-16, 09:04 PM
Forgot about that one. But it sounds like it's necessarily harder to pull off (Gotta hit, then make them fail a reflex save), than it necessarily would be to just punt them. Plus the punting is generally useful in other ways.Actually, getting Stand Still to stick is probably easier than other methods, at least against big, strong monsters.

Tokuhara
2013-03-16, 09:06 PM
Well, let me give the party layout, to make this make more sense:

Human Exalted Courtesan - Diplomacy machine. Wearing a Scholar's Outfit

Human Rogue - He who gets hit by traps and whines when he gets beaten up. Wearing leather

Human Exalted Cleric - Healbot! Nothing but Healbot! Wearing Banded Maile

Half-Ogre Fighter - Based on thrown weapons followed by "I hit it with my club." Wears scale maile

Goliath Barbarian - Charges in and whacks it with his greathammer. Wearing lamellar

Half-Nymph (homebrew race) Exalted Druid - Shoot it with arrows and secondary heal. Wearing Hide

Gnome Sorcerer - Blast Monkey. Wearing armored robes

ArcturusV
2013-03-16, 09:14 PM
Hmm, and it seems from what was stated that your DM has really been soft balling you. As most DMs tend to do. That party looks like it'd have a lot of problems if it faced enemies of even moderate intelligence and competence. Which is a scary thing. I don't necessarily see how you can "Tank" either since you got two relatively squishy combat beasts in melee you'd have to cover, and more critical, a gnome who should be nowhere near melee that you'd have to cover. So it sounds like you'd be too thinly stretched to Tank for the team. Unless you focused on just tanking one front. In melee having a build that's manuever based is going to help more as not only do you prevent the enemy from acting properly, but you also set up your teammates for easier damage. Prone targets are shielded from range, but vulnerable to melee, etc. Punting people into positions, etc.

At range there doesn't seem to be much you can do if you are helping shield your ranged guys. You're necessarily taking yourself out of the fight. Ranged attacks are fairly hard to stop for a character. Readied actions for partial charges, trips, etc, seem to be your best bet.

Tokuhara
2013-03-16, 09:24 PM
Hmm, and it seems from what was stated that your DM has really been soft balling you. As most DMs tend to do. That party looks like it'd have a lot of problems if it faced enemies of even moderate intelligence and competence. Which is a scary thing. I don't necessarily see how you can "Tank" either since you got two relatively squishy combat beasts in melee you'd have to cover, and more critical, a gnome who should be nowhere near melee that you'd have to cover. So it sounds like you'd be too thinly stretched to Tank for the team. Unless you focused on just tanking one front. In melee having a build that's manuever based is going to help more as not only do you prevent the enemy from acting properly, but you also set up your teammates for easier damage. Prone targets are shielded from range, but vulnerable to melee, etc. Punting people into positions, etc.

At range there doesn't seem to be much you can do if you are helping shield your ranged guys. You're necessarily taking yourself out of the fight. Ranged attacks are fairly hard to stop for a character. Readied actions for partial charges, trips, etc, seem to be your best bet.

So what would you suggest I do? I want to play a dwarf-y dwarf.

ArcturusV
2013-03-16, 09:43 PM
Well, I imagine for a Dwarfy Dwarf, the ideals you should be looking for is:

Pushing people around.
Trampling them down.
Breaking stuff.

It's not ideal... but things like Trip and Disarm, while more optimal really also presume a sort of finesse fighter that doesn't fit the image of a dwarf to me.

Also I'm unfamiliar with ToB so I can't suggest stuff for it.

So the ideal is someone who, like most dwarf descriptions are basically built like a solid block of Stone/Lead. You knock someone around with your bulk. Instead of tripping them up you Overrun them with your weight and trample them into the ground. And you use your keen dwarven crafting knowledge and physical power to break stuff that gets in your way.

Ideally, and I don't know that ToB doesn't cover this, you'd have a style that would allow battlefield manipulation through breaking stuff. I'd see it as very "Dwarfy" if you could do things like make a wall collapse in an opponent's way by smacking it with your dwarf hammer, for example.

As a "Tank" it's less about soaking up damage and instead using your Dwarfy traits to prevent the enemy from dealing damage. It's hard for some punk ass elf fencer with a rapier to stab your Gnomish buddy if you're busy knocking him into a wall, or trampling over him and leaving your Size Dwarven 8 Steel Bootprint on his face.

This also means generally playing like a blue player in Magic: The Gathering, to draw a parallel. Your combat style would be based entirely on your turn being "I draw a card... Your turn.". Or in your case it would be "I ready a charge action. Your turn."

And you do the majority of your stuff when the enemy tries to do something.

Toy Killer
2013-03-16, 09:51 PM
Then you would make a lousy hobgoblin. If you can easily avoid him, and he is no threat to you (compared to, say, one of the two glass cannons also in melee with you) you should not keep focusing on the big fat tank with a much smaller damage output and direct your efforts towards actually reducing the enemy's ability to wound you.

I hardly consider anything with an axe (Or whatever the weapon of choice may be) and full plate a non-threat.

I would consider the one that is fully armored (Compared to the two medium armored foes) to be the biggest threat from my hobgoblin-y eyes. From a culture that only gets issued out medium armor standard, something in plate would at the very least suggest experience. And coming from this stand point, a Goliath may also be appealing, but the dwarf is going to need the most damage to take down.

If, say, I was DMing a prophet of the battle testaments; A hobgoblin that successfully sacked Maljinoar, the dwarven keep. I would expect his troops to be well versed in combat, probably with some NPC class levels, if not PC class levels. They would be expected to survive and endure, and know proper tactical advancement in terms of the game play. I would optimize them better and they would attack smartly, efficiently and prioritize targets better then a common Orc.

The typical Hobgoblin, while smarter then an Orc in terms of tactics, wouldn't be, especially against PCs. Hobgoblin survival rates against PCs is abysmal even with effective tactics (Which, is to say, aren't that effective).

This is when a DM plays with the PCs and flexes his choice when the challenge arrives suitably. Hobgoblins might set up ambushes better then Orcs, but that doesn't suggest that all Hobgoblins should automatically be experienced with the fine tunings of AoO's and target priority. If the Glass Cannon in the back opens himself up, utilize the advantage. If he is effectively screened by a well armored (Albeit stocky) opponent, get him out of the way as quickly and effectively as you can and press forward.

Flickerdart
2013-03-16, 09:53 PM
If the Glass Cannon in the back opens himself up, utilize the advantage. If he is effectively screened by a well armored (Albeit stocky) opponent, get him out of the way as quickly and effectively as you can and press forward.
That's the thing, though - without battlefield control of some sort, the tank is not screening him effectively. You can just walk around.

Tokuhara
2013-03-17, 07:57 AM
Well, I imagine for a Dwarfy Dwarf, the ideals you should be looking for is:

Pushing people around.
Trampling them down.
Breaking stuff.

It's not ideal... but things like Trip and Disarm, while more optimal really also presume a sort of finesse fighter that doesn't fit the image of a dwarf to me.

Also I'm unfamiliar with ToB so I can't suggest stuff for it.

So the ideal is someone who, like most dwarf descriptions are basically built like a solid block of Stone/Lead. You knock someone around with your bulk. Instead of tripping them up you Overrun them with your weight and trample them into the ground. And you use your keen dwarven crafting knowledge and physical power to break stuff that gets in your way.

Ideally, and I don't know that ToB doesn't cover this, you'd have a style that would allow battlefield manipulation through breaking stuff. I'd see it as very "Dwarfy" if you could do things like make a wall collapse in an opponent's way by smacking it with your dwarf hammer, for example.

As a "Tank" it's less about soaking up damage and instead using your Dwarfy traits to prevent the enemy from dealing damage. It's hard for some punk ass elf fencer with a rapier to stab your Gnomish buddy if you're busy knocking him into a wall, or trampling over him and leaving your Size Dwarven 8 Steel Bootprint on his face.

This also means generally playing like a blue player in Magic: The Gathering, to draw a parallel. Your combat style would be based entirely on your turn being "I draw a card... Your turn.". Or in your case it would be "I ready a charge action. Your turn."

And you do the majority of your stuff when the enemy tries to do something.

Well, one of the big things ToB did right was options for melee guys. For instance, Deepstone Sentinel lets me as an immediate action force a Will Save against someone I smacked (let's say on an AoO) or their movement drops to a flat 0, meaning they can't escape from my dwarfyness. Plus, they're in difficult terrain, and they are demoralized by the strike I did to him, and my teammates are all inspired.