A class with extra domains as its only feature

[Eslin]

As part of research for a cleric, I was wondering - if I made a base class that gained an extra domain every level (granted power only, no spells) and the ability to turn undead, how would it hold up?

Say it started with three, gained the ability to turn undead at level 2-5 (to prevent it being the ultimate dip class) and gained a new domain every level, with the ability to take a domain again if you swapped it out for a devotion feat - tier wise, how would that stack up?

[JackRackham]

As part of research for a cleric, I was wondering - if I made a base class that gained an extra domain every level (granted power only, no spells) and the ability to turn undead, how would it hold up?

Say it started with three, gained the ability to turn undead at level 2-5 (to prevent it being the ultimate dip class) and gained a new domain every level, with the ability to take a domain again if you swapped it out for a devotion feat - tier wise, how would that stack up?

If we're assuming a chassis with full BAB, 4+ skill points, and at least 2 good saves, it wouldn't be the worst melee class. This would probably be more appropriate and get more feedback on the homebrew forum, though.

[Flickerdart]

It would be pretty lousy, since most granted powers are 1/day and rather minor at that.

[RFLS]

Check out the sovereign speaker from Faiths of Eberron.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Several domains give bonus feats, or the equivalent thereof. The Archivist handbook gas a lot on such. Also, the... Crap, can't remember the name, something apostate from Faiths of Eberron is basically this, minus turning and plus 8/10 casting.

Edit: ninja'd, and I completely mis-remembered the name.

[Elric VIII]

It would be very much like a Divine Mind (which is not a 100% terrible class, compared to other paladin-esque full BAB classes). Consider adding on some Adept-level casting from the Cleric list + domains and you would have a decent class, at least T3, I'd say.

Also, consider adding the option to gain additional uses of domain powers instead of another domain.

[avr]

So a cleric takes a one-level dip in the class, loses a caster level and gains 3 domains? There's probably ways to abuse that.

As a stand-alone class, not multiclassed or gestalt, it sounds tier 4. You should have a couple of decent but not gamebreaking tricks and some others which wouldn't match up to what other characters can do at the same level.

[Eslin]

Ok then - would giving it cleric stats except full BAB and 4 skills/level and the ability to blow turn undead attempts to reuse powers, plus a pool of turn undead attempts that can be reused every encounter, turn it into a tier 3?

[Flickerdart]

Ok then - would giving it cleric stats except full BAB and 4 skills/level and the ability to blow turn undead attempts to reuse powers, plus a pool of turn undead attempts that can be reused every encounter, turn it into a tier 3?
No. If you let them prepare new domains every day, then maaaaybe you get Tier 4. There are a few categories that domain powers generally fall into:


Turn or rebuke a new creature type (not useful at all)
Add X skill to your class skills (not terribly useful)
Use a 1st level SLA 1/day (not worth your time)
+1 to CL (useless for this class)
Gain a racial feature (situationally useful)
Apply Charisma or Wisdom to something for a little while (the meat and potatoes of this class, probably)
Lousy bonus feat
Reroll something (ranging from useful things like saves to useless things like weapon damage)
Minor combat bonuses


A member of this class would generally pick up the various combat bonus and smite powers (I'm thinking Gluttony and Wrath domains for big Strength and then Orc for smiting) and then be sort of useful-ish for a little while. But nothing you can get as a Cleric domain granted power is going to be worth anybody's time as a class feature after about level 6, because all of these effects were designed to be accessed at level 1.

Anything this class could do (skillmonkey a little bit, fight a little bit, get a few SLAs) an Incarnate or Binder could fill exactly the same role but better in every way, because their class features are actually level-appropriate, they get them at-will, and they can swap everything out every day.

[Greenish]

But nothing you can get as a Cleric domain granted power is going to be worth anybody's time as a class feature after about level 6, because all of these effects were designed to be accessed at level 1.This, and there's also the fighter's dilemma: you'd pick the best abilities first, and then if you stayed in the class, be forced to pick worse and worse abilities because nothing else is left.

[Eslin]

No. If you let them prepare new domains every day, then maaaaybe you get Tier 4. There are a few categories that domain powers generally fall into:


Turn or rebuke a new creature type (not useful at all)
Add X skill to your class skills (not terribly useful)
Use a 1st level SLA 1/day (not worth your time)
+1 to CL (useless for this class)
Gain a racial feature (situationally useful)
Apply Charisma or Wisdom to something for a little while (the meat and potatoes of this class, probably)
Lousy bonus feat
Reroll something (ranging from useful things like saves to useless things like weapon damage)
Minor combat bonuses


A member of this class would generally pick up the various combat bonus and smite powers (I'm thinking Gluttony and Wrath domains for big Strength and then Orc for smiting) and then be sort of useful-ish for a little while. But nothing you can get as a Cleric domain granted power is going to be worth anybody's time as a class feature after about level 6, because all of these effects were designed to be accessed at level 1.

Anything this class could do (skillmonkey a little bit, fight a little bit, get a few SLAs) an Incarnate or Binder could fill exactly the same role but better in every way, because their class features are actually level-appropriate, they get them at-will, and they can swap everything out every day.

Aren't there some pretty good bonus feats? And wouldn't turning/rebuking a new type turn out pretty good with the extra turning attempts and the ability to grab pretty much every single turning related domain?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Flickerdart, I think you're missing a lot of the cool things that domains can give you. "Crappy Bonus Feats" - Extend Spell, Improved Initiative and (the equivalent of) Extra Turning are all solid for the right type of caster, and those are just the ones I remember as being useful to my specific character. That's the equivalent of three feats for a 1-level dip, well worth it.

[ArcturusV]

I suppose the problem is that turning in and of itself tends not to be too terribly useful. Based in part on the relatively hard time it is to effect very large numbers (in my experience) and the fact that you always turn the weakest enemies first. And the weakest enemies probably weren't an actual threat to the party anyway, so it's combat edge is pretty negligible. Rebuke/Command is a little more useful in so far as it gives you a free Dominate effect, at times. And having a disposable minion tends to come in handy for certain things, like Faux Trap Finding. Or if you just need an extra body to Aid Another on some sort of check, etc.

So your primary bonus with this, Extra Turning, is a fairly weak feature. Thus the comparison to the Fighter where bonus feats aren't so much a feature as a Tax, requiring you to take them just to be barely effective at what it is that you do. You have to take the bonus "I can turn..." domains just to be able to barely do what the character class seems geared towards. Least as you mentioned.

Now it might be more useful if, out of the box their turning ability just said:

"Can turn any creature that does not share both Type and Alignment with this class".

Thus if I'm playing a Chaotic Good Half-Orc, I can automatically off the bat turn any thing that is not a Chaotic Good Humanoid. If I had something like the Feykissed Template, then it would be turning anything that isn't a Chaotic Good Humanoid or Fey.

Which means that I will be able to use this ability, out of the box, in about 99% of the encounters I run into. Thus I avoid the "Smite Evil" issue where I have one powerful ability on the Paladin, that I don't get to use during the day because we did nothing but fight Neutral Spiders/Rats/Wolves and such.

[TuggyNE]

Flickerdart, I think you're missing a lot of the cool things that domains can give you. "Crappy Bonus Feats" - Extend Spell, Improved Initiative and (the equivalent of) Extra Turning are all solid for the right type of caster, and those are just the ones I remember as being useful to my specific character. That's the equivalent of three feats for a 1-level dip, well worth it.

The problem is that a class useful only for dipping is not a class that is useful and well-designed.

[flare'90]

No. If you let them prepare new domains every day, then maaaaybe you get Tier 4. There are a few categories that domain powers generally fall into:


Turn or rebuke a new creature type (not useful at all)
Add X skill to your class skills (not terribly useful)
Use a 1st level SLA 1/day (not worth your time)
+1 to CL (useless for this class)
Gain a racial feature (situationally useful)
Apply Charisma or Wisdom to something for a little while (the meat and potatoes of this class, probably)
Lousy bonus feat
Reroll something (ranging from useful things like saves to useless things like weapon damage)
Minor combat bonuses


A member of this class would generally pick up the various combat bonus and smite powers (I'm thinking Gluttony and Wrath domains for big Strength and then Orc for smiting) and then be sort of useful-ish for a little while. But nothing you can get as a Cleric domain granted power is going to be worth anybody's time as a class feature after about level 6, because all of these effects were designed to be accessed at level 1.

Anything this class could do (skillmonkey a little bit, fight a little bit, get a few SLAs) an Incarnate or Binder could fill exactly the same role but better in every way, because their class features are actually level-appropriate, they get them at-will, and they can swap everything out every day.

If you let the class exchange the domains for the devotion feats AND let them get more than 2 devotions it could get a lot better. Possibly also grant them a turn/rebuke pool to recharge them or additional uses every 4 level or so.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I only really know that Extra Turning is good for powering divine metamagic. I do recall my friends mentioning that turning can get pretty well and abusive, if you focus enough on it - something about beating ravenloft by marching straight into the castle and dusting Straud. But, yeah, so far this class is only good as a dip - and not even that, because Cleric does all the same stuff, plus more.

[Flickerdart]

Aren't there some pretty good bonus feats? And wouldn't turning/rebuking a new type turn out pretty good with the extra turning attempts and the ability to grab pretty much every single turning related domain?
Turning sucks. Everything about it (from the annoying rules to the underwhelming effects) is awful. Rebuking is marginally better, so an evil character of this class could potentially have a little pool of controlled minions of the DM takes pity and throws some that it can control at the party. But it's not going to be enough to make a difference, because you simply can't build a real class out of minor abilities of another class.


Flickerdart, I think you're missing a lot of the cool things that domains can give you. "Crappy Bonus Feats" - Extend Spell, Improved Initiative and (the equivalent of) Extra Turning are all solid for the right type of caster, and those are just the ones I remember as being useful to my specific character. That's the equivalent of three feats for a 1-level dip, well worth it.
This class is not a caster, and any advantages that it may grant to casters are irrelevant when considering its merit on its own.

[ArcturusV]

Well, the problem with that approach Freaky is, that like some effects (For example Sleep), it always affects the lowest high dice first. So even having something like a 2 HD zombie next to the vampire lord you want to dust? Means that what you'll end up doing instead is dusting the zombie and probably not having enough Turning left over afterwards to effect the vampire. Congrats, you just used this class's primary feature to destroy an enemy that even your weakest combatant could have probably one shotted effortlessly, and had no ability to really impact the fight against you.

That's the great weakness to Turning. Rebuking is a little more useful because instead of just dusting that 2 HD zombie you instead dominate it. So you can at least get SOME use out of it. Even if it's just saying "Go be a squire for the Fighter and pick up weapons he drops".

Not a hugely effective use. But hey, least it's something.

Now if this class got something like level X At-Will or something, it might be useful on it's own.

So it takes it's domains at level 1. It gets a level 1 Domain Spell as an At Will at caster level 1. Level 2? Takes another domain, gets one other level 1 Domain Spell as an At-Will with Caster Level 1 on it. Level 3 it gets another Domain, gets another Domain Spell out of any of it's Domains, level 2 spell. With Caster level 3 when it uses the ability. Extrapolate out, always have minimal caster level to use the ability.

It'd still be fairly weak. Though the "At Will" part might help. And to really get good use out of it, you'd have to stick with the class for a lot of levels. Since it's not real spellcasting none of the +1 Existing Spellcasting PrCs would advance it either. Eh.

[TuggyNE]

Well, the problem with that approach Freaky is, that like some effects (For example Sleep), it always affects the lowest high dice first.

It's actually closest first. However, that doesn't much affect your point; it's still often practical for an enemy to use well-positioned buffers to soak up the brunt of your assault, and it's still often impossible for you to avoid them.

[ArcturusV]

Ah. Honest mistake. Shows how often Turning is useful or comes up. Though I don't think I've actually misused it as the "minions" tend to take point anyway.

Though I am reminded you can't actually "dust" a creature unless you have twice as many levels as it does hitdice. If you're running a campaign where the final boss is only half your level something is really kinda strange.

[Greenish]

Though I am reminded you can't actually "dust" a creature unless you have twice as many levels as it does hitdice. If you're running a campaign where the final boss is only half your level something is really kinda strange.You can boost turning level, and use Greater Turning (Sun domain) or Disciple of the Sun.

If you build for it, you can dust silly amounts of undead with each turning. Against anything else, well, despite the wasted resources, you're still a cleric.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

If you have domains that let you turn or rebuke other creatures, could you do the same to them?

If so, this would still be a little weak, but maybe if you had some ability to swap out domains, to make sure turning applied to whatever you were fighting...

[ArcturusV]

Well the Sun domain specifically says "against undead" so probably not. But being able to Rebuke/Command on another type of creature is conditionally useful depending on the situation. Ever see an enemy Druid get pissed off that his Awakened Tree just got dominated by a Cleric with the Plant Domain? :smalltongue:

[Lans]

No. If you let them prepare new domains every day, then maaaaybe you get Tier 4. There are a few categories that domain powers generally fall into:


Turn or rebuke a new creature type (not useful at all)
Add X skill to your class skills (not terribly useful)
Use a 1st level SLA 1/day (not worth your time)
+1 to CL (useless for this class)
Gain a racial feature (situationally useful)
Apply Charisma or Wisdom to something for a little while (the meat and potatoes of this class, probably)
Lousy bonus feat
Reroll something (ranging from useful things like saves to useless things like weapon damage)
Minor combat bonuses


A member of this class would generally pick up the various combat bonus and smite powers (I'm thinking Gluttony and Wrath domains for big Strength and then Orc for smiting) and then be sort of useful-ish for a little while. But nothing you can get as a Cleric domain granted power is going to be worth anybody's time as a class feature after about level 6, because all of these effects were designed to be accessed at level 1.

Anything this class could do (skillmonkey a little bit, fight a little bit, get a few SLAs) an Incarnate or Binder could fill exactly the same role but better in every way, because their class features are actually level-appropriate, they get them at-will, and they can swap everything out every day.

Depending on how the turning fuels domain powers and number of turning attempts you could hit high tier 4 or low tier 3.

The Abyss gives +4 to strength and -2 to AC 1/day, so at 1st Domain class would be about on par with the stock barbarian as far as combat goes. I'm sure another domain is is about on par with fast movement.

Second level- The barbarian gets uncanny dodge, and Domain class can get uncanny dodge from the fate domain.

Third- Barbarian gets +1 trap sense Domain class gets a domain

4th Barbarian gets rage 2/day If Domain class can burn turn attempts to use the Abyss again it can grab another ability and is pulling ahead of the barbarian. If not, something like Hatred or Fury are both about as good as rage.

5th Barbarian gets improved uncanny dodge and not be flanked. Domain class can get a few low hd creatures to stand next to him.

6th Barbarian gets +2 trapsense, Domain class can grab animal devotion and get +4 to strength or flight, From here on out it uses turning attempts(I'm assuming it gets extra turning by now) to use animal devotion every fight, and the abyss for an extra boost when necessary.

[Flickerdart]

Abyss is strictly inferior to Rage - you don't get Con boost nor the Will save boost. It's also a Planar domain, meaning that it takes up the space of two regular domains.

You also don't have access to all of the Barbarian's lovely ACFs and feats - and even with those, barbarian is solid T4. A class that's strictly worse than a barbarian isn't even close to T3.

[Lans]

Abyss is strictly inferior to Rage - you don't get Con boost nor the Will save boost. It's also a Planar domain, meaning that it takes up the space of two regular domains.
Yes, but this hypothetical class I believe used the clerics chasis save high BAB and 4 skills a level. The con boost I felt was negligable to combat. I know it takes up 2 domains, I believe the class was getting 3 to start with.


You also don't have access to all of the Barbarian's lovely ACFs and feats - and even with those, barbarian is solid T4. A class that's strictly worse than a barbarian isn't even close to T3.


Its not strictly worse, it can get +10 to strength at level 6 as well as travel devotion, with 3 domains remaining for utility purposes, like getting level+4 to charisma for a round. I'm pretty sure that's abusable as hell.

I would say it depends mostly on how much it can spam its domain abilities by burning turning attempts. It won't be on the same level as a beguilar but it might be about warblade level.

[Flickerdart]

I'm pretty sure that's abusable as hell.
Abusable, maybe - if you used the trick in conjunction with a class that has real class features. But having one or two little things it can do that accomplish nothing by their lonesome is practically Truenamer tier.

[Lans]

Abusable, maybe - if you used the trick in conjunction with a class that has real class features.
I was looking for something from the domains, but there was nothing too useful, bonuses on saves, damage for a round, AC some crappy skills. Best thing I got was UMD on a staff.



But having one or two little things it can do that accomplish nothing by their lonesome is practically Truenamer tier.

Its easily getting ridiculous bonus to strength, Assuming it gets extra turning every 4 levels, and it takes 3 turning attempts to reuse a domain ability(going off of various devotion feats), it starts about on par with the stock barbarian(its an easy comparison point) from level 1. Figure both get a speed boost, and a combat boost. The barbarians is better, but the Domain master should be able to burn turning attempts to do it an additional time in a day, plus turning is actually useful at low levels from what I recall.

From there it can pull ahead when ever the barbarian just gets trap sense, or an extra rage. Maybe some skills bonuses, immunities, or a minor feat. It should be a decent healer with the healing devotion feat.

I didn't see anything to really make it shine, so I'm going with mid tier 4 at least.

[Flickerdart]

Again, Abyss Domain compares unfavourable to Rage in every way but the Strength bonus and takes up two domain slots. Being able to get Animal Devotion as a bonus feat later is not a point in favour, because the Fighter gets bonus feats too and we all know how that turns out.

Also, going cherry-picking for options and still coming up short of the standard Barbarian is kind of saying a lot about this class.

[Lans]

Again, Abyss Domain compares unfavourable to Rage in every way but the Strength bonus and takes up two domain slots.

Yes, but this class can also burn turning attempts to use the ability more than once per day, so its a bit of a wash at 1st level. The cle



Being able to get Animal Devotion as a bonus feat later is not a point in favour, because the Fighter gets bonus feats too and we all know how that turns out.

This class gets 13 more abilities, better skills, and will save over the fighter.


Also, going cherry-picking for options and still coming up short of the standard Barbarian is kind of saying a lot about this class.

I don't see it as coming up short, abyss 2x day at level 1 should be at least as good as rage 1/day. Barbarian has fast movement and more hp, but this class is hitting harder throughout the day.

[Flickerdart]

This class gets 13 more abilities, better skills, and will save over the fighter.

Quantity is no substitute for quality. There aren't 13 domains that are going to be useful, given the hard limit on the number of Devotions any one character can have.

[lunar2]

if you want a domain focused class, you're going to have to go into the spells.

so, this class gets turn/rebuke undead as a cleric at level 1.

it starts with 2 domains that it gets the spells for as 1/day SLAs. any expensive material/focus component or xp component must still be provided. save DCs are charisma based, and caster level equals class level. it gets access to higher level SLAs at the same level the cleric gets the spells. SLAs can be recharged by expending 1 turn attempt/spell level.

it gets the granted power of those domains, as well. granted powers that have limited uses/day can be recharged for 1 turn attempt.

at every 4th level, it gets another domain.

at every 5th level, it gets extra turning as a bonus feat.

it can bypass the limit on devotions, but can't trade domains for devotions (it has to actually take the feat normally).

there, you now have a solid T2 class.

drop access to higher level SLAs to every 3rd level after first (so second level SLA at 4th, 3rd at 7th, 4th at 10, 5th at 13, 6th at 16 and 7 at 19), and you probably drop to T3.

[Flickerdart]

there, you now have a solid T2 class.
Not by a long shot. Lots of SLAs gets you to T3, but you need real casting to manage T2 and up.

[lunar2]

domains get you miracle, PAO, flight, teleport, and all the other goody T1/2 stuff. whether it is an SLA or a spell makes no difference. actually, having those spells as SLAs is better, because no V,S,DF, or normal material or focus components.

T2 is defined as having the power of a T1 (a domain caster like this fits that bill) without as much versatility (again, fits the bill).

just go through the players handbook, and see how many of the most powerful spells come up in domains, you'll see what i'm talking about.


edit: animal domain gets shapechange, too.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, good job, you have Miracle - once per day. Everyone tremble in fear.

[lunar2]

Yeah, good job, you have Miracle - once per day. Everyone tremble in fear.

actually read what i posted. you can sacrifice turn/rebuke attempts to recharge your SLA's. you can get more miracles with your 19+Cha bonus (on a Charisma based class) turn/rebuke undead attempts per day. if you take the air,fire, water, earth, luck, and animal domains, you get a crapload more turn attempts, and you can go essentially at will with miracle and shapechange. you know, the T1 in a spell spells (duplicate any spell of 7th level or lower, and get the EX and Su abilities of any creature with 25 hd or less.)

[Flickerdart]

actually read what i posted. you can sacrifice turn/rebuke attempts to recharge your SLA's. you can get more miracles with your 19+Cha bonus (on a Charisma based class) turn/rebuke undead attempts per day. if you take the air,fire, water, earth, luck, and animal domains, you get a crapload more turn attempts, and you can go essentially at will with miracle and shapechange. you know, the T1 in a spell spells (duplicate any spell of 7th level or lower, and get the EX and Su abilities of any creature with 25 hd or less.)
Forgive me for not reading your post correctly, then; I did not expect anyone to believe that intentionally designing a class with 19 Miracles per day was a good idea.

[lunar2]

Forgive me for not reading your post correctly, then; I did not expect anyone to believe that intentionally designing a class with 19 Miracles per day was a good idea.

actually, it's not 19, either it's 19+cha turn attempts per day, but it takes 9 turn attempts to recharge a 9th level spell. you'd get 4 miracles per day, assuming a cha mod of 10. unless, of course, you get domains that grant you alternate turning. however, unless you are spending xp on big effects, you're basically going to be using miracle to duplicate 8th level or lower spells, so you play more like a psion (who somehow knows all the 8th level and lower powers worth knowing) than a cleric.

and i never said it was a good idea, just that it was tier 2. this isn't a real homebrew, just a weird idea. if it was a real homebrew, i would have put a caveat in there to stop you from using one turn attempt to completely refresh the turn attempts granted by the elemental domains, for example. something along the lines of "limited uses per day granted powers can have one use recharged by expending one turn attempt" instead of the current wording. that means you could, for example, expend an earth domain turning attempt to get a fire domain turning attempt, so you could move them around, but not get more of them.

[Lans]

Quantity is no substitute for quality. There aren't 13 domains that are going to be useful, given the hard limit on the number of Devotions any one character can have.

I would take any 6 domains over +6 to trap sense.

Let's see Destruction, Luck, Magic, Protection, Strength, Travel, War 6 from core.

Spell compendium Wrath, Trade, time, retribution, renewal, pride, orc, mysticism, ocean, lust, liberation, hatered, gluttony, fate, family, dream, courage, celerity, balance, charm

I got 27, even if you want to discount some of those theres still devotion feats, turning/rebuking domains, and planar domains. Plus stuff from obscure sources.