Reworking Lycanthrope

[Yogibear41]

So I've had the thought of maybe DM'ing an E6 campaing from time to time and in my thoughts I had an idea for how I wanted to change up lycanthropy for both player use and monster use. So I propose these new ideas to the playground for their critic. Dropping the LA for both by +1 so +1 for afflicted +2 for natural, also I plan for these bad boys to be some of the toughest enemies the players would ever face in the world so keep that in mind. (well at least under certain circumstances)

For starters I will be removing all racial hit die and have them progress by character class level, most likely 6 levels of barbarian, ranger, or fighter, but other classes aren't out of the question.

Both Natural and Afflicted will change form on the nights of the full moon (probably 3 days a month) with no chance of a control shape check to stop the transformation.

Upon said transformation both will have to attempt a will save probably a DC of 20 for afflicted and 15 or so for Natural (good chance I will lower these by 5 each) in order to maintain control of themselves, if they fail they will revert to an animalistic nature and probably run off into the night to do things depending on what type of lycantrhope they are ( I don't think I will be making them inherently good or evil based on their type) as well as their original alignment. Would flavor it in such a way that they are giving into their inner urges so a person who was already good probably wouldn't go off and do bad things, while a person who was bad would be more likely to go around slaughtering people, I also think I will shift the alignment on the law/chaos axis to chaotic for the duration of the transformation.

Normally they can only change form on the night of the full moon, but I plan to give Natural lycanthropes only acces to the control shape skill as a class skill and allow them to make a check once per day(probably something rediculous like 25 or 30) to be able to change and stay in that form until the next dawn ( no changing back voluntarily)

Another Idea im considering is not having a hybrid form at all but instead making their animal forms not exactly like the base animal for example werewolf lords would transform into a quadrepdal creature similar to a direwolf but more beastial/ferocious looking where upon some one with a know: nature check 10-15 will be able to determine a difference. If this is the case I will give these forms bite and claw attacks even if the original form didn't have claw attacks (such as the dire wolf)

Now for the stats:

An afflicted lycantrhope in human form will have the standard abilities: +2 to wisdom,+2 to natural armor, low light, scent, and any feats gained by the base animal+ iron will( thinking of adding great fortitude and lighting reflexs to this mix as well)

A natural lycanthrope will have all of the above abilities in human form as well as a +2 to all physical ability scores (str, dex, and con)

When transforming a lycanthrope will destory any armor/clothing is is wearing and drop any weapons or gear it is carrying, and will only be able to attack with its natural weapons Claws Primary, Bite Secondary.

They will have the normal ability modifiers and natural armor modifiers based on their base animal.

In addition to Damage reduction and regeneration based on their type

DR/10 silver for afflicted with Regen 5: overcome by silver

DR/15 Silver for natural with Regen 10: overcome by silver

Also considering giving natural lycanthropes a small amount of DR/silver in human form maybe like DR/2 silver or DR/5 silver


The idea is for them to almost impossible to kill without silver, but still challenging to kill for a level 6 party that is armed with silver weapons.

And while it might seem incredibly strong for a PC, I think it somewhat balances it by the fact that it is extremely limited in when it can be used, as well as the risk of losing control after the transformation.

But, I've always been partial to lycanthropes so I'm putting it to the Playground to be a non-partial judge.

[Mishkov]

DR/15 silver with regen 10 is insanely good in an E6 campaign. Also, your checks are fairly high. I'd be worried about half my group being in the woods during half the session.

I'm also confused how you're removing the RHD of the animals. The RHD are what balance out the different animals. Under your system, I'd take something with really high RHD so I'd pull a bunch of feats and really high stats.

This isn't a terrible system for NPCs, but for players, it's both extremely strong with control shape mechanics that aren't fun for the group.

[ZeroNumerous]

When transforming a lycanthrope will destory any armor/clothing is is wearing and drop any weapons or gear it is carrying, and will only be able to attack with its natural weapons Claws Primary, Bite Secondary.

If magic armor is destroyed, then the entire template is worthless for a PC.

Also: Why can't they use weapons? Their half-animal form has humanoid hands, so there's no reason they can't grab a sword and two-hand it.

[Vaz]

with no RHD why doesn't everyone choose Dire Bear or T-Rex forms?

[limejuicepowder]

Personally, I've never liked the rules or the flavor of the DnD lycans; the LA and RHD are killer, and the hybrid form is silly.

Instead, I would suggest using the shapeshifting druid ACF as a base and go from there. Forget about RHD, put a +LA that you feel is good enough (probably 2), add on some DR/silver, and you're good to go. The forms can be refluffed to look like anything you want; bear, wolf, cat, w/e. As the character gains levels, the forms get stronger, which works much better mechanically than the regular lycans.

In an E6 game and with a +2 level adjustment, this would mean a lycan would only gain access to the predator form. You may want to give them access to higher forms, like the ferocious slayer, by spending 2 feats.

[Yogibear41]

So I've got one person telling me its to good and one person telling me its bad because it destroys armor. I would allow magic armor a fort saving throw of 15 to survive, but the idea is that once a person Knows they are a lycanthrope most of the time they will be prepared for the rising of the full moon on the select days of the month.

I also have always disliked the use of weapons as a lycanthrope, your so big powerful beast but you want to use that little ole sword? no thanks, in addition im leaning toward only having 1 form for each no animal/hybrid forms just 1 form, and I'm especially leaning toward a quadrapedal form for werewolves.

On the argument about racial hit die, I plan on having a limited selection of lycanthropes, most likely sticking with werewolf lords and were bears. I'd probably allow something else that isn't tottally nuts.

As far as the regen and damage reduction being insane, thats kind of the point. The are both overcome by silver weapons which turn them off, in that case they just become a beat stick in pretty much all aspects. But without them they become close to unkillable thats my goal.

As far as the will saves to not animal out I think they are fair, thought I could see lowering them to 15 and 10 instead of 20 and 15.

But if you think about it something with a good will save and free iron will feat, will have a minimum of a +7 to will and thats with a wisdom of only 10.
Then if they take a feat like steadfast determination they gain their con modifier as a bonus on will saves and seeing as all they lycantrhopes have a nice sized con boost this could easily be another +5 or more.

[Mishkov]

Yeah wolf is probably fine, but I still hold you don't need magic weapons if you have say a barb who decided bear was a good idea rocking +16 STR +8 con with 15 dr/silver and 10 regen at level 3. It's E6, they won't have crazy stuff anyway. Keeping the RHD INSTEAD OF the level adjust seems like a better idea even.

To put this in perspective, bear warrior (CW) that would take you until ECL 12 to achieve and you wouldn't have the huge DR + regen. It wouldn't work for your rogue or caster, but it would make for a crazy barbarian.

The problem with the shape change mechanic that you have going isn't that it's always too hard to make or that it's too easy, it's that it's not a fun and rewarding mechanic. You get crazy bonuses when you can, but when you don't, you're out a lot of your power for the day. Or if it's a forced change time, that player is out for the session. It's not that it's inherently a bad or unbalanced mechanic, it's that it's not fun to either invest into lycan and then not being able to use it for a session or not being able to participate in a session because your character changed and decided to go chase down deer for a session.

[limejuicepowder]

The problem with the shape change mechanic that you have going isn't that it's always too hard to make or that it's too easy, it's that it's not a fun and rewarding mechanic. You get crazy bonuses when you can, but when you don't, you're out a lot of your power for the day. Or if it's a forced change time, that player is out for the session. It's not that it's inherently a bad or unbalanced mechanic, it's that it's not fun to either invest into lycan and then not being able to use it for a session or not being able to participate in a session because your character changed and decided to go chase down deer for a session.

I don't quite understand your criticism; shapeshift is usable at-will. If you wanted to attach a time when they had to change, like the full moon, that wouldn't interfere with other times the character wants to change. And what does chasing deer around the woods have to do with the game mechanics of the template?

Really, I was suggesting it for a chassis to make a less disruptive lycan template. As-is, lycans have a large LA and often times have several racial hit dice. Especially in an e6 game, this severely limits the customization of a character with lycanthropy. It sounds like though that your DO want a powerful, character-defining template, so maybe the traditional template is more of what you are looking for.

[TuggyNE]

I don't quite understand your criticism; shapeshift is usable at-will. If you wanted to attach a time when they had to change, like the full moon, that wouldn't interfere with other times the character wants to change. And what does chasing deer around the woods have to do with the game mechanics of the template?

The OP's adjustments make it only usable on demand by natural lycanthropes, and only with a high skill check. Similarly, involuntary change occurs at full moon, and you have to make a Will save or do regular animal stuff.

In other words, Mishkov was responding to the OP's continued suggestions, not your alternatives.

[limejuicepowder]

The OP's adjustments make it only usable on demand by natural lycanthropes, and only with a high skill check. Similarly, involuntary change occurs at full moon, and you have to make a Will save or do regular animal stuff.

In other words, Mishkov was responding to the OP's continued suggestions, not your alternatives.

Heh heh...I thought that was the OP, since they have the same profile pic :). Now it all makes much more sense

[Yogibear41]

So I've been doing some thinking, and have come to the conclusion that as is this could be extremely overpowered for an e6 game. I want them to be really strong when they do transform but they should not be unstoppable.

So I propose these changes:

going to use normal werewolves instead of werewolf lords and will probably drop the idea of werebears due to the extreme stat adjustments they would receive, but in order to preserve the image of more savage version of an animal as opposed to just a regular wolf form, I will be giving them the Powerful build ability while they are transformed. (they will be medium sized)

I will be keeping the will saves upon transformation but will drop both by 5 (15 for afflicted 10 for natural)

I will keep the DR the same as is because I want them to be tough without silver weapons, But I plan to change the regeneration to fast healing and reduce it to 2 for afflicted and 5 for natural.

Does this sound more acceptable?