What? My gear is gone? Pfft! Why should I care?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Restrictions:
-PhB and DMG only
-No Magic Casting as a character (can still pay gold for spell casting services)

Basically I'm currently working on a Level 8 Gestalt build that doesn't need items/gear to do well. This is because the person DM'ing the next group I'm going to be in has a love for screwing players over in situations they're without their gear.

So are there any good builds where I don't need certain equipment/gear to do good?

That or it's something burned into my guy so it's not something that can be looted off of him?

[Greenish]

Barbarian/Fighter//Rogue with IUS is probably your best option. Monk levels might help a bit, but since you'd rather have access to rage, you'll pass those (or wing in an alignment change).

But you're probably screwed against most CR appropriate enemies, so eh.

[Karnith]

If you're doing Core-only, no gear is going to be pretty difficult. With spellcasters, a sorcerer with eschew materials would probably be fine, as would a druid, but non-spellcasters are pretty gear-dependent to not just get hit constantly in combat (by CR 8, enemy attack bonuses are easily capable of getting past nonmagical armor/monk AC; consider the elder arrowhawk with +20 melee, the athach with +16 melee or a full attack of +12/+12/+12/+7, or the behir with +15 melee; even a level 8 fighter is going to have an attack bonus at least in the mid-teens), and most damage reduction, regeneration, flight, and/or incorporeality is going to screw you over. Without magic the healing is also going to hurt either you or your bankroll. Without items, your saves aren't going to be too hot, either.

Permanent magical effects are pretty sparse in core, but there are a few that you can spring for to make your life a little better (but be wary of dispel magic):
Enlarge Person for melee-types
(Greater) Magic Fang for unarmed-types
Reduce person for stealthy/squishy-types
Resistance if you're desperate
At high levels, polymorph any object cast twice can turn you into whatever you want, but if your DM is taking your gear away he probably won't put up with that level of cheese

You will probably be able to contribute out of combat passably well if you go the skill-monkey route, though without items of competence you might run into some difficulties (magic traps are a headache, for example).

[ShurikVch]

Leadership. Spellcasting cohort... :smallwink:

[JustSomeGuy]

How easily could your character procure somebody's clothes, boots and bike in a pinch?


(Or a more useable idea, what kind of nonhuman/monstrous/magical creature PC races with innate abilities etc. are available to you?)

[Callin]

Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Shadowdancer 1//Monk 8

So you can stealth outta those Rock and a Hard place times.
Fighter 4 for Spec UAS so you can make up for having a lower Str.

[Answerer]

The game doesn't work under these stipulations and I advise you to find a DM who understands that.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Only races I can find from base manuals are available.

Though after some more reading I figured a Monk/Lycanthrope Gestalt could be the best.

But I've ran into confusion for the level buy off when Gestalt is involved.

Say I go afflicted for LA +2.

So at level 8 I look like this:

Monk 8
Werebear 6/LA +2

Do I use the Monk level or the Werebear level to decide when I am allowed to buy off a level of LA?

Also, when I do buy off LA (lowering my experience by a level) would that also cause my Monk level to go down to Monk 7?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Also, say I wanted to be Natural and not Inflicted, could I divide the LA +3 between the lycanthrope levels and the Monk levels?

For example

Monk 7/LA +1
Werebear 6/LA +2

But obviously still need to reach character level 9 before buy off begins?

[Answerer]

How LA mixes with Gestalt is not well defined.

But Monk is never the best choice for anything, including this. Barbarian does much better. Lycanthrope's not a bad idea, but even more strongly downplays the usefulness of Monk since the Claws are frequently better than Monk unarmed strikes.

And I reiterate, nothing you do is ever going to make this effective. D&D relies on magic: without items or native magic, you will not have it. You will therefore be useless is a depressingly large number of situations.

[Gwazi Magnum]

We'd rather not have one spell casting character take over everything, and we'd rather not have to solve that by making everyone spell casters.

If I were in hybrid form however, wouldn't natural attack (claws) mix/work with the Monks unarmed damage?

[ShurikVch]

Not exactly "from base manuals" but still... On the "safer" side...
Be an incorporeal (LA +1). Feat "Ghostly Grasp". Now you are pretty difficult to hurt, and you incorporealness cannot be stripped from you.

[Answerer]

We'd rather not have one spell casting character take over everything, and we'd rather not have to solve that by making everyone spell casters.
Then you are playing the wrong system. 3.x is terrible at this.


If I were in hybrid form however, wouldn't natural attack (claws) mix/work with the Monks unarmed damage?
Not really. You could attack with your Unarmed Strikes (unaffected by your claws), and then make your claw attacks as secondaries (unaffected by unarmed strikes). You'd get a lot of attacks, and the majority of them would miss. At best a level or two (no more) of Monk for Flurry, AC Bonus, Bonus Feats (including IUS++), and Evasion. Except that this prevents you from taking Barbarian levels, which are more valuable.

[Karnith]

Except that this prevents you from taking Barbarian levels, which are more valuable.
Does it? Monks retain all monk abilities they've already gained, even if they change alignment or classes, as far as I know.

A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.

Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.

[Answerer]

Yes, and a power-tripping DM who "has a love for screwing players over in situations they're without their gear" is going to go for a backstory alignment change, I'm sure.

[Karnith]

Yes, and a power-tripping DM who "has a love for screwing players over in situations they're without their gear" is going to go for a backstory alignment change, I'm sure.
Fair enough.

Gwazi, have you or your group talked to your DM about why taking away gear isn't cool? Because that's probably a better idea than trying to optimize against DM fiat.

[Rubik]

Yes, and a power-tripping DM who "has a love for screwing players over in situations they're without their gear" is going to go for a backstory alignment change, I'm sure.You forgot to make this blue for sarcasm.

[Dimers]

the person DM'ing the next group I'm going to be in has a love for screwing players over in situations they're without their gear.

So are there any good builds where I don't need certain equipment/gear to do good?

That or it's something burned into my guy so it's not something that can be looted off of him?

Well, yes, you can make magic items that take up no body slot (requiring twice the usual GP cost) and call them tattoos or something similarly non-removable. Enchanted surgical implants. Whatever. It's a fair trade, in the minds of most DMs, and it's supported if not specifically delineated by the Magic Item Creation rules in the DMG. Based on your description of this person, though, it sounds like merely paying double the cost will not be sufficient to appease his item-thieving wrath. Can't hurt to ask, but not likely to work.

[Answerer]

I don't particularly care for that forum convention, and I really don't think there was any ambiguity about my position in that sentence. I don't always employ sarcasm, but when I do, my statement is dripping with it.

[Ravenica]

Gotta love how the OP comes asking for build help and instead gets told his DM is stupid and his group is playing wrong :smallconfused: such a friendly place :smallbiggrin:

[killem2]

Can you give an example of how a dm explains how everyone loses ALL their gear with out you being able to react?


Gotta love how the OP comes asking for build help and instead gets told his DM is stupid and his group is playing wrong :smallconfused: such a friendly place :smallbiggrin:



Yup. His DM is a major idiot, but I will try to help! :P

[Rubik]

Gotta love how the OP comes asking for build help and instead gets told his DM is stupid and his group is playing wrong :smallconfused: such a friendly place :smallbiggrin:The problem is that being magickless in D&D doesn't work, especially in Core.

The entire situation is untenable, and we're trying to get that point across.

[Answerer]

Gotta love how the OP comes asking for build help and instead gets told his DM is stupid and his group is playing wrong :smallconfused: such a friendly place :smallbiggrin:
He got plenty of help. Including from me. He also got really important advice. The system does not support the kind of game he and his group apparently want to play well at all. There are systems that are designed from the ground up with this sort of thing in mind, and they do a far better job handling it.

Too many people play only D&D, and try to force the square D&D peg through various round holes. Don't be afraid to branch out and try new things. D&D is not the best system for every campaign. Actually, it's not really the best system for most campaigns. 3.x, in particular, has very few things going for it, and a Core-only game has none, since the biggest and most important advantage of 3.x is enormous array of material available for it. If you're not using that, the system really doesn't have anything else impressive about it.

[Callin]

From what I read the whole group decided to have no casters so as 1 person did not overshadow the whole group. They seem to not be new players so this could be a fun challenge to overcome.

The DM catching you with your pants down can be fun as well. But constantly being attacked while sleeping in your underwear and escaping prisons can be tiresome if overdone. However being able to handle yourself while in those situations is a good thing to plan a contingency for.

And i was wondering this. yes i know that the monk is basically a weak class but why is the Barb so much better when this game is so basic core that its not even funny. I mean the guy wants to be able to function without gear.

the barb with 8 levels gives you Fast Movement, Rage 3/day, Uncanny Dodge, Trapsense +2, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and DR 1/-. Ok so you get a +4 Str and Con a +2 to Will and a -2 to AC for 3+con mod rounds. After which you are fatigued. the rest isnt really worth mentioning other than Imp Uncanny Dodge which means you can not be flanked. Honestly not much help for a character that is goin to be gearless at times.

The Monk at 8 levels gets- Wis to AC, choice of a few semi lackluster to ok feats, Flurry of Blows, UAS, evasion, Still Mind, Ki Strike (Magic), +20' speed, Slow Fall 40', +1 insight to AC, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body. So thats some more feats, More attacks that are only 1 less than your normal BaB, the chance to negate all damage against stuff that you reflex save against, you attacks are magic, negate 40' of falling damage if by a wall or what not, immunity to normal disease (meh but can help), and the ability to heal your self for monk level x 2 each day divided as you need it. Overall a much better set of abilities to survive without gear. Specially since you dont need a weapon or armor and you are set to go.

[Ravenica]

It may not work if the DM is any good at playing the creatures and uses CR appropriate enemies effectively, but this player seems to have played with this DM before and is not complaining about the DM or about issues where the team has been tpk'd due to gear loss. He's looking for a build that does not rely on gear or spellcasting for it's tricks.

Instead of telling him he's playing wrong maybe actually help him with his build? I've been out of 3.5 too long to do so myself but I know for a fact that using core I've played characters that weren't gear dependent. He's not saying "never uses gear" or that he will never have or be able to keep gear, he simply wants a character that can survive the enevitable challenge for that time he loses his gear, however temporal.

[killem2]

Using the Called Magic Property could actually come in handy here! It may add cost to items that otherwise (because of the dm) would not need to be, but wouldn't that work?

He takes your items, you call them back?

[ksbsnowowl]

Also, say I wanted to be Natural and not Inflicted, could I divide the LA +3 between the lycanthrope levels and the Monk levels?

For example

Monk 7/LA +1
Werebear 6/LA +2

But obviously still need to reach character level 9 before buy off begins?

As Answerer said, the gestalt rules don't touch on level adjustment at all.
I've generally seen three ways it's done, with varying degrees of balance.
One is to put all LA on one side; this way is more overpowered, as it mitigates the balancing factor that LA are supposed to be.
The other, which is the one I use in my games, is what you described, where you split the LA on both sides as closely as you can. This still imposes some of the balancing factor LA is supposed to be, but doesn't overly punish the player as the third option does.
Third, is to impose the the LA on both sides of the character. I highly recommend against this, as it overly punishes the player.

[Answerer]

One is to put all LA on one side; this way is more overpowered, as it mitigates the balancing factor that LA are supposed to be.
Eh, gestalt is supposed to be overpowered compared to the regular game, and frankly outside of a couple of exceptions (Feral, Lolth-touched, Mineral Warrior, Saint, Unseelie Fey are the only ones to come to mind), LAs are generally way, way too high for what the race gives you. Mitigating that is a good thing in most cases, I'd argue. The original LAs were apparently set to dissuade players from taking monstrous races and punish them when they did.

[Piggy Knowles]

Can you use a casting class and just not cast any spells? Druid's wild shape would come in handy here. (Alternatively, if you can get the ranger Wild Shape variant from UA allowed...)

Honestly, you could do worse than Monk 8//Druid 8 in a campaign like this. Ki strike will actually become useful if your DM puts you up against any creatures with damage reduction. Maybe something like...

1- Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Track
2- Combat Reflexes
3- Blind-Fight
6- Improved Trip, Improved Initiative

(Man, PHB-only feats for a wild shape character with no casting kind of suck... but at least Blind-Fight can be useful if you've got no magical way of beating concealment?)

Basically, even if you completely ignored the druid's spells, you would still have a decent animal companion, the ability to wild shape into large creatures, and some various middlin' nature-themed abilities on your druid side. On your monk side, you get evasion, speed bonuses, ki strike, bonus feats, and some minor defensive abilities.

[animewatcha]

Unless DM is 'lenient' on alignment restrictions, you can't take both monks and barb levels at same time. One needs lawful to advance, the other needs nonlawful to advance.

[Friv]

My immediate thought:

1) If you want no casting at all, there aren't a lot of class options: Barbarian, Fighter, Monk and Rogue are the only four core classes that don't get spells (or I guess a Ranger or Paladin with a really crummy Wisdom, but that seems a little... silly?)

My personal suggestion would be a Rogue/Fighter gestalt who uses Improved Disarm as a primary tactic and has Improved Unarmed Strike. Your skills can get you out of captivity, and when you get in a fight just steal someone else's gear and go to town with it.

[Rubik]

Can you use a casting class and just not cast any spells? Druid's wild shape would come in handy here. (Alternatively, if you can get the ranger Wild Shape variant from UA allowed...)

Honestly, you could do worse than Monk 8//Druid 8 in a campaign like this. Ki strike will actually become useful if your DM puts you up against any creatures with damage reduction. Maybe something like...

1- Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Track
2- Combat Reflexes
3- Blind-Fight
6- Improved Trip, Improved Initiative

(Man, PHB-only feats for a wild shape character with no casting kind of suck... but at least Blind-Fight can be useful if you've got no magical way of beating concealment?)

Basically, even if you completely ignored the druid's spells, you would still have a decent animal companion, the ability to wild shape into large creatures, and some various middlin' nature-themed abilities on your druid side. On your monk side, you get evasion, speed bonuses, ki strike, bonus feats, and some minor defensive abilities.This one's actually doable. You can get by without casting spells, and if you don't want to completely ignore that part of your class, focus on prepping healing spells and buffs for your allies. Don't use them on yourself or your animal companion; that way you aren't outshining anyone in their field of expertise.

[Answerer]

Disarm is too easily countered by locked guantlets; I wouldn't want to give this DM such an easy way to shut me down.

Trip is good but you can't rely on a weapon or magic for Reach, which means you'll be a poor tripper.

Grappling is a thing for monsters way more than it is for humanoids. If you can count on mostly-humanoid enemies, this might work, but then you'd have to use the grappling rules.

Feint is a waste of time...

Bull Rush is useful, but the best ways of using it aren't available in Core, and pretty often you won't have anywhere meaningful to push your enemies to, since there are no casters setting up AoEs.

Overrun is for moving around the map, not actually defeating enemies.

Sunder just destroys your loot. Eh, the DM is stealing it anyway, so maybe it's worthwhile.

Straight-up damage dealing will be hard. You can't rely on a big two-hander, which means Power Attack is out. Lances are out, so charging is much less attractive. Archery, well, obviously. Sneak Attack on Two-Weapon Fighting might be viable, but that depends on the DM allowing TWF on Unarmed Strikes. Flurry could replace TWF here. You're still screwed for the overwhelming majority of potential threats (almost any form of DR shuts you down, as do the usual melee-banes like miss chances, flight, teleportation, and so on).

There really are no good options. Without alignment restrictions, I'd probably say something like Barbarian 8//Monk 4/Rogue 1/Assassin 3. Monk 4 sucks but without Ki Strike (Magic), literally any DR means you suck. Barbarian 8 for Rage, Rogue and Assassin for a bit of damage. Assassin for spells, as well, except oops, no good.

[ShurikVch]

Unless DM is 'lenient' on alignment restrictions, you can't take both monks and barb levels at same time. One needs lawful to advance, the other needs nonlawful to advance. Dragon #335 have Chaos Monk ACF :smallwink:

[Greenish]

Dragon #335 have Chaos Monk ACF :smallwink:Dragon Magazine is rarely considered core.

[Kazyan]

Can you at least use MM1? If so, and LA works how I think it does in your game, try a Pixie (LA+4)/Paladin 2/Monk 2//Rogue 8 since you don't want a spellcaster. Even without gear, you will have flight, greater invisibility + sneak attacking with unarmed strikes, and your very high Charisma to saving throws, with a side order of smite. It helps that you'll have all of the skill points.

[Answerer]

Pixies are Tiny, which is going to make attacking kinda iffy. Invisibility and the AC bonuses help, but I strongly suspect the DM is going to start including counters to those pretty quickly, at which point you're in a lot of trouble. Pixie really needs ranged attacks, which aren't going to happen without items or magic.

[animewatcha]

Dragon #335 have Chaos Monk ACF :smallwink:


Restrictions:
-PhB and DMG only
-No Magic Casting as a character (can still pay gold for spell casting services)



Otherwise, stuff like Half-mino/Half-ogre would be suggested.

[ShurikVch]

Otherwise, stuff like Half-mino/Half-ogre would be suggested.

I think it was only about races...
Anyway, it's not a separate class, just a variant...

Also, what ECL we are speak about? Will succubus be OK as race? Troll/half-dragon? Dracolich?

[Kazyan]

Pixies are Tiny, which is going to make attacking kinda iffy. Invisibility and the AC bonuses help, but I strongly suspect the DM is going to start including counters to those pretty quickly, at which point you're in a lot of trouble. Pixie really needs ranged attacks, which aren't going to happen without items or magic.

Small, actually; they don't have to enter the taret's square. Good point about the ranged attacks, though...I'd try keeping some concealed daggers somewhere, if those won't be stripped as well. But they probably will.

[Answerer]

Ah, at Small that becomes more reasonable. That does seem like the best bet so far, but hinges on Monster Manual which was not among the allowed books.

[icefractal]

It's kind of unconventional, but what about:
Ghost / X 3 // Rogue 8

As ghost powers, definitely take Draining Touch (which you will use to Sneak Attack with; the Sneak Attack extra damage is negative energy though, not extra ability drain - this is specified somewhere), and the other two can be whatever. Personally I like Malevolence and Telekinesis, as they don't hit all your allies when used.
Feats: Flyby Attack, Ability Focus

You don't need magic items to fly, deal with walls, or survive hostile environments. Since you're doing touch attacks, you don't need a big bonus to hit, and since your other powers are monster-type abilities they don't need items to boost them. Sneak Attack works with everything.

As far as "X", it should be something with good durability, to counteract your as much as possible. Fighter is one option, but Paladin might actually be better, at least two levels of it. Sure, you can't heal yourself or turn undead, but you can heal others, smite foes, and get a huge bonus to your saves. Ghosts are one of the undead that can be good-aligned, and it makes a fair amount of sense - a holy warrior, dying before his quest was complete, who had to come back and finish it. This would limit your options with Malevolence (no stockpile of comatose bodies for your selection), but if the rest of the party is good anyway, it might be an interesting way to go.

I would not suggest Barbarian, despite the HD, because IIRC undead are unable to Rage, being immune to emotion effects. And you have no Strength score anyway.

[Jack_Simth]

We'd rather not have one spell casting character take over everything, and we'd rather not have to solve that by making everyone spell casters.
As many people have mentioned, avoiding spells for this is a problem.

Additionally, in Gestalt, you need to be aware of power curves. A (mostly) mundane melee chracter (Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, arguably Ranger) is fairly strong at low levels, but doesn't increase in power very quickly and they're very likely to feel left behind at mid to high levels (which, at 8th, you're just getting into). A Full Caster (Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, Druid) is fairly weak at low levels, but goes up rather quickly in power and is liable to dominate the game at mid to high levels (which you're just getting into). A skill monkey (Rogue, Bard, arguably Ranger) lies somewhere between the two for most of the game. A relatively wise thing to do in a gestalt game is to combine two classes on different curves - a Fighter//Cleric can do quite well, for example, as can a Paladin//Sorcerer or a Rogue//Druid, a Ranger//Druid, and many other combinations. Rogue//Wizard is dicey at lower levels, but is quite feasible and has some very tasty options (Greater Invisibility + Ranged touch spells, for instance).

Not having casting, especially when you're worried about losing all equipment, is... not an idea I would recommend. ESPECIALLY in an otherwise Core game.



If I were in hybrid form however, wouldn't natural attack (claws) mix/work with the Monks unarmed damage?
Explicitly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#manufacturedWeapons), yes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#unarmedStrike). The natural attacks become secondary attacks (which has noticeable impacts on the damage), but you can totally do that.

[Answerer]

That "somewhere" isn't in Core, though. Without that "somewhere" (Complete Arcane I think), I'm not sure you're even allowed to trigger Sneak Attack with such things. Obviously, getting Sneak Attack ability damage would be insane.

[Gavinfoxx]

The game doesn't work under these stipulations and I advise you to find a DM who understands that.



And I reiterate, nothing you do is ever going to make this effective. D&D relies on magic: without items or native magic, you will not have it. You will therefore be useless is a depressingly large number of situations.


Then you are playing the wrong system. 3.x is terrible at this.


The system does not support the kind of game he and his group apparently want to play well at all. There are systems that are designed from the ground up with this sort of thing in mind, and they do a far better job handling it.

Too many people play only D&D, and try to force the square D&D peg through various round holes.

Answerer is very wise, and you should listen to him.

[Kazyan]

Ah, at Small that becomes more reasonable. That does seem like the best bet so far, but hinges on Monster Manual which was not among the allowed books.

Acknowledged; hopefully OP can get it through anyway for some survivability. It's a bit silly to allow only some of Core. If anything, one would disallow DMG or only allow PHB; DMG+PHB is a weird combination. :smallyuk:

[Answerer]

My guess is that the DM considers the Monster Manual to be DM-only. In fact, I'd not be surprised if the DM were not limiting himself in the same way the players are limited.

[Mishkov]

Ask if you can take a druid without spells for one side of the gestalt and go rogue on the other maybe. Picking up some shadowdancer levels is probably a good idea, so you can sneak back in afterwards.

The wild shape and big pet might be worth no spells if they aren't on the table as an option anyway.

Dragon disciple would also be good if he would let you qualify for it without the arcane prereq.

[herrhauptmann]

Barbarian/Fighter//Rogue with IUS is probably your best option. Monk levels might help a bit, but since you'd rather have access to rage, you'll pass those (or wing in an alignment change).

But you're probably screwed against most CR appropriate enemies, so eh.
Be a halforc, and take levels in halforc paragon class.
Tada! You can rage while still being lawful.

How easily could your character procure somebody's clothes, boots and bike in a pinch?

Loved that movie. Even now, it's still amazing.

Can you give an example of how a dm explains how everyone loses ALL their gear with out you being able to react?

There's an ooze in dungeonscape that's technically a trap. At the start of the oozes turn, if it's adjacent to a player, he loses everything he has that isn't immune to acid. Everything. Even gold.
Had it happen at level 15, and was very thankful my warrior had blueshine and everbright gear. Even without a mace, I just spent a few turns cutting them in half (max hp dropped every split), then we hit them with a weak area effect to fry them all at once. The psion wasn't too happy with losing everything he owned though.

[Answerer]

Be a halforc, and take levels in halforc paragon class.
Tada! You can rage while still being lawful.
But you have to be a half-orc, which is pretty darn bad. Especially if you wanted to pick up Improved Trip. And no Extra Rage in the books allowed, so you only ever get it 1/day. And Unearthed Arcana is neither Player's Handbook nor Dungeon Master's Guide.


There's an ooze in dungeonscape that's technically a trap. At the start of the oozes turn, if it's adjacent to a player, he loses everything he has that isn't immune to acid. Everything. Even gold.
Had it happen at level 15, and was very thankful my warrior had blueshine and everbright gear. Even without a mace, I just spent a few turns cutting them in half (max hp dropped every split), then we hit them with a weak area effect to fry them all at once. The psion wasn't too happy with losing everything he owned though.
That's some pretty awful DMing, unless the Psion happened to stumble upon a horde that replaced everything he lost in short order.

[herrhauptmann]

OP:
Do you think it would be possible to swing Unearthed Arcana as a resource, given that it's online. I mean, gestalt is in UA anyway, isn't it?

But you have to be a half-orc, which is pretty darn bad. Especially if you wanted to pick up Improved Trip. And no Extra Rage in the books allowed, so you only ever get it 1/day. And Unearthed Arcana is neither Player's Handbook nor Dungeon Master's Guide.

Yeah, I missed the books listed. Thought it was just 'core only.'


That's some pretty awful DMing, unless the Psion happened to stumble upon a horde that replaced everything he lost in short order.
No he didn't. Fortunately, Tier 1 and 2 characters don't need much gear.
The psion was pretty darn powerful, given that the DM was a major powergamer as a player, and helped build the character.
It was a couple years ago, but I hit the forums here asking for help in building a warrior that can say 'No' to anything the DM throws at me. Blindness, stunning, level drain, gear loss. It worked, but we'd have been better off if I chose a Radiant Servant or other primary spellcaster.


edit:
Check out Horizon Tripper. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415 A core only build that tries to not need magic.
I think gestalting that with a rogue would be a good choice.
There's also Jack B Quick. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick But that requires books you don't have. You'll have to do a lot of arguing with the DM to play him.

[Answerer]

It's true that the Psion probably did fine without gear, but at level 15 that's an absurd hit. His power relative to any other spellcasters got seriously downgraded.

[herrhauptmann]

It's true that the Psion probably did fine without gear, but at level 15 that's an absurd hit. His power relative to any other spellcasters got seriously downgraded.
Player #4 kept losing characters, generally by the 5th round of the first encounter of each game day. He just couldn't build a good character, and didn't want anyone to help him.
Besides the psion, the other two characters were my dwarf warrior (excessive multiclassing), and a paladin who did lots of smiting (for not enough damage).

Fortunately, we never got into any casting duels or anything, so the psion did okay. Biggest thing he lost was his BoED amulet of retribution.

[icefractal]

That "somewhere" isn't in Core, though. Without that "somewhere" (Complete Arcane I think), I'm not sure you're even allowed to trigger Sneak Attack with such things. Obviously, getting Sneak Attack ability damage would be insane.Well, you can always take Corrupting Touch instead - that does normal damage, so it would definitely work with Sneak Attack. Draining Touch is obviously cooler if it works.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Maybe Horizon Tripper//Rogue 7/Shadowdancer

In this environment shadowdancer's abilities will actually seem good. If you can swing the alignment change shuffle Barb to later on the Horizon side and take some Monk to Ex on the Shadowdancer side.

Monk//Paladin assuming Pallie's caster light is allowed.

Maybe fighter 2 on the monk side, probably not though, you're just building towards core feat trees. Monk abilities can easily be refluffed to being extreme martial discipline with a side of divinely inspired their theme of purity is fitting. This can be played two ways; as a classic Paladin who has extensive unarmed training to fall back on or as a classic unarmed or staff/unarmored monk type with full BAB and some extra abilities that compliment Monk's theme; save bonuses, remove disease (extending inner purity to others), smite evil to compliment Ki strike.

The real reason I like this build is the possibility of casting Holy Sword on a stick or rock.

If you go with Monk//Lycanthrope write it down as Monk//LA+2/HD 6 rather than Monk//HD 6/LA+2 the former should give you full BAB.

[Yogibear41]

Only races I can find from base manuals are available.

Though after some more reading I figured a Monk/Lycanthrope Gestalt could be the best.

But I've ran into confusion for the level buy off when Gestalt is involved.

Say I go afflicted for LA +2.

So at level 8 I look like this:

Monk 8
Werebear 6/LA +2

Do I use the Monk level or the Werebear level to decide when I am allowed to buy off a level of LA?

Also, when I do buy off LA (lowering my experience by a level) would that also cause my Monk level to go down to Monk 7?



Druid AFC swift and deadly hunter gives you favored enemy bonuses as a ranger, wis to AC and increased AC per level like a monk, and increased speed per level by a monk. You give up wildshape, but if your a were-bear who cares (im currently doing this in the game i'm playing :smallsmile: )

[Rubik]

If you go with Monk//Lycanthrope write it down as Monk//LA+2/HD 6 rather than Monk//HD 6/LA+2 the former should give you full BAB.You still get 0 at 1st level, but...

[gr8artist]

It's a shame UA isn't included, or you could gestalt fighter//rogue, but take one of the ACF so you get sneak attack on both sides or combat feats on both sides. Throw in a barbarian level on the fighter side, or a monk level on the rogue side to set it where you don't get identical class features at each side (if it matters). 8th level character with 8d6 sneak attacks... All you need then is a tank to stand on the other side of enemies for you.
:smallbiggrin:
Also, learn to throw rocks and clubs and learn to craft weapons.

[magwaaf]

wizard/cleric
wizard/druid
wizard/factotum
wizard/xxxxx

[Gwazi Magnum]

Fair enough.

Gwazi, have you or your group talked to your DM about why taking away gear isn't cool? Because that's probably a better idea than trying to optimize against DM fiat.

This is not a weekly incident.

But he always like to have the incidents where our gears been taken and we need to work without out. Besides, he's stated to the entire group before hand that it's meant to be a challenging campaign.


Can you give an example of how a dm explains how everyone loses ALL their gear with out you being able to react?

Yup. His DM is a major idiot, but I will try to help! :P

Not exactly unable to react, but if we did it would met with a dozen arrows to the chest.

And no, he's not an idiot. He just get's a challenging mean streak sometimes when it comes to players.

To list a specific case, there was one time me and one other player had to fight in an area with limited gear, and later we were able to escape but had literally nothing on us, not even clothes.

So we find clothes in the forest and put it on... bad idea. It would set on fire everyday doing increasing damage each day, and we couldn't take them off either.


From what I read the whole group decided to have no casters so as 1 person did not overshadow the whole group. They seem to not be new players so this could be a fun challenge to overcome.

The DM catching you with your pants down can be fun as well. But constantly being attacked while sleeping in your underwear and escaping prisons can be tiresome if overdone. However being able to handle yourself while in those situations is a good thing to plan a contingency for.

And i was wondering this. yes i know that the monk is basically a weak class but why is the Barb so much better when this game is so basic core that its not even funny. I mean the guy wants to be able to function without gear.

the barb with 8 levels gives you Fast Movement, Rage 3/day, Uncanny Dodge, Trapsense +2, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and DR 1/-. Ok so you get a +4 Str and Con a +2 to Will and a -2 to AC for 3+con mod rounds. After which you are fatigued. the rest isnt really worth mentioning other than Imp Uncanny Dodge which means you can not be flanked. Honestly not much help for a character that is goin to be gearless at times.

The Monk at 8 levels gets- Wis to AC, choice of a few semi lackluster to ok feats, Flurry of Blows, UAS, evasion, Still Mind, Ki Strike (Magic), +20' speed, Slow Fall 40', +1 insight to AC, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body. So thats some more feats, More attacks that are only 1 less than your normal BaB, the chance to negate all damage against stuff that you reflex save against, you attacks are magic, negate 40' of falling damage if by a wall or what not, immunity to normal disease (meh but can help), and the ability to heal your self for monk level x 2 each day divided as you need it. Overall a much better set of abilities to survive without gear. Specially since you dont need a weapon or armor and you are set to go.

I agree, Monk > Barbarian when it comes to no gear.

+The non-spellcasting rule was set by the players, not the DM and we've all played it for around a year now.


It may not work if the DM is any good at playing the creatures and uses CR appropriate enemies effectively, but this player seems to have played with this DM before and is not complaining about the DM or about issues where the team has been tpk'd due to gear loss. He's looking for a build that does not rely on gear or spellcasting for it's tricks.

Instead of telling him he's playing wrong maybe actually help him with his build? I've been out of 3.5 too long to do so myself but I know for a fact that using core I've played characters that weren't gear dependent. He's not saying "never uses gear" or that he will never have or be able to keep gear, he simply wants a character that can survive the enevitable challenge for that time he loses his gear, however temporal.

Yes, I am not complaining, I am asking for help. Thanks for recognizing this.


Can you use a casting class and just not cast any spells? Druid's wild shape would come in handy here. (Alternatively, if you can get the ranger Wild Shape variant from UA allowed...)

Honestly, you could do worse than Monk 8//Druid 8 in a campaign like this. Ki strike will actually become useful if your DM puts you up against any creatures with damage reduction. Maybe something like...

1- Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Track
2- Combat Reflexes
3- Blind-Fight
6- Improved Trip, Improved Initiative

(Man, PHB-only feats for a wild shape character with no casting kind of suck... but at least Blind-Fight can be useful if you've got no magical way of beating concealment?)

Basically, even if you completely ignored the druid's spells, you would still have a decent animal companion, the ability to wild shape into large creatures, and some various middlin' nature-themed abilities on your druid side. On your monk side, you get evasion, speed bonuses, ki strike, bonus feats, and some minor defensive abilities.

I just asked, wouldn't work. Druid's shapeshifting is too close to spells.
Plus from what I've heard about Druid, the shape shifting is it's most broken feature, not the spells.

[icefractal]

I just asked, wouldn't work. Druid's shapeshifting is too close to spells.
Plus from what I've heard about Druid, the shape shifting is it's most broken feature, not the spells.Well it's the shapeshifting with the spells, really. Turning into a bear is pretty cool on its own, but it doesn't get CoDZilla powerful until you're buffing yourself (and your animal companion) up hugely with stuff like Animal Growth, Bite of the Were___, and Enhance Wild Shape.

Also, without magic items, most wild-shape forms tend to have poor AC.

[Soranar]

I'd really like to help but this:

PhB and DMG only

combined with this:

no spellcasters

makes this more of an exercise in futility.

You get access to 1 or 2 templates ? I can't even remember which ones are in the PhB and DmG, I mean you're not even playing core, cause Core includes PHB II and DMG II.

The way things are right now, you get to play a skillmonkey tank in a group of skillmonkey tanks (even with gestalt you have , maybe, 1 or 2 viable options so you'll combine them and so will everyone else).


If you want nice things for melee characters, try Tome of Battle.

Or at least add the completes and unearthed arcana

[avr]

If you could swing stuff in the SRD (but not in the PHB or DMG) there's the soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm). Its entire shtick is fighting with a weapon it creates out of nothing.

Gestalt with anything full BAB; you're at a level where you could do barb / ranger / horizon walker to give you rage without fatigue if you're so inclined.

[Waker]

The restriction to Core is what I find bothersome. Were some splatbooks allowed, I would say to look at the Incarnate or Totemist. As it stands, I would say something simple like Barbarian//Ranger would work. Good HP, Attack, Saves, Skills with some bonus feats augmenting the Barbarians combat abilities. I'd say to focus on using a 2h-weapon for combat, but take the archery combat style just to give yourself some options in case of a flying enemy. If only some of the nice ACFs were on the table though.

[Callin]

I still suggest my previous option of Ftr 4/Rog 3/ Sdw D 1// Mnk 8. Since it has the most utility and in a level or two you can Shadow Step.