Need A Quick LOTR Reference

[Palanan]

Was there a named river or stream issuing forth from Mordor into Ithilien, bearing all manner of vile corruption in its unholy waters?

I remember Frodo and Sam drinking from an oily stream at one point in the final stages of their trek, but that was nameless. Was there anything like this earlier on, perhaps when Gollum was leading them towards Cirith Ungol?

Reason being, I was on a stream cleanup this morning, and while everyone else went downstream towards the marshes, I walked up the sad, wretched ditch towards the storm drain at its source. It runs for several hundred yards between a strip mall to one side and an apartment complex on the other, and it's a miserable wreck of bags, bottles, wrappers, cans, endless cigarettes and too much else I don't want to identify.

It's especially sad because two ducks, a mallard and his hen, kept paddling ahead of me in the polluted water, and heavy tracks in the mud-bars showed a fat urban raccoon is a frequent visitor. The stream feeds into a marshy branch of a larger creek which also receives runoff from a major highway.

The water in this ditch really does look like it comes straight from Mordor, so I thought a reference would be appropriate.

:smallfrown:

[leafman]

Looking at the map of Middle Earth, the Poros river runs from the Sea of Nurnen in Mordor to the Anduin delta, there is also the Harnen that runs from the mountains around Mordor to the Great Sea

link to detailed map:
http://hugo1900.pagesperso-orange.fr/MAP-OF-MIDDLE-EARTH-VERSION-7.html

[factotum]

Looking at the map of Middle Earth, the Poros river runs from the Sea of Nurnen in Mordor to the Anduin delta

Er...it looks to me that all the rivers connecting to the Sea of Nurnen flow *into* it, not out of it; there certainly doesn't seem to be any connection between any of those rivers and any of the rivers that empty into the Anduin.

In fact, I'd say the answer to the OP's question is no, there are no such rivers in LOTR. The only books I can remember clearly having something like that are the Thomas Covenant books by Stephen Donaldson--there, the Soulsease River flows into Mount Thunder, and after running through the abandoned homes of evil creatures in the guts of the mountain, exits as the Defiles Course, flowing through the murky Sarangrave Flat to the sea.

[leafman]

I suppose that makes more sense than the river running through the mountains. other maps make it look like those rivers are connected, just with the bit running through the mountains not drawn.

[strygalldwir]

The Ithilduin flows out of Cirith Ungol & down to the Anduin. Since it also flows past Minas Morgul I would think it would be pretty foul.

[Palanan]

From the location it sounds appropriate...but phew, that's an obscure one. Ithilduin was the older name; after the Nazgûl took Minas Ithil it was known as the Morgulduin, appropriately enough.

Thanks for finding that for me, it fits perfectly. Does Ithilduin itself appear in the trilogy proper, or is the name only found in Tolkien's notes?

[Ceric]

From the location it sounds appropriate...but phew, that's an obscure one. Ithilduin was the older name; after the Nazgûl took Minas Ithil it was known as the Morgulduin, appropriately enough.

Thanks for finding that for me, it fits perfectly. Does Ithilduin itself appear in the trilogy proper, or is the name only found in Tolkien's notes?

I'm pretty sure there's appendices at the end where you can look up the page numbers for any name that appears in the trilogy. I wish I had my copy of Return of the King with me :smallfrown:

/nothelpful

[TuggyNE]

I'm pretty sure there's appendices at the end where you can look up the page numbers for any name that appears in the trilogy. I wish I had my copy of Return of the King with me :smallfrown:

I do have my copy, but a quick skim through the likely sections of the appendix, and a browse through the index, turned up nothing about Ithilduin. :smallannoyed: (Even though I'm sure that's what it used to be called.)

Morgulduin would work fine though, and it does show up two times in the text proper (once when Frodo and Sam approach it, and once when Faramir recounts the timing of their journey to Denethor and Gandalf).

[Killer Angel]

I've just took a look at my copy of the Journeys of Frodo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeys_of_Frodo)... The last named river, is the Morgolduin, that passes near Minas Morgul and begins near Shelob's lair.

When they effectively enter Mordor and the plain of Gorgoroth, there's nothing.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ceric
I'm pretty sure there's appendices at the end where you can look up the page numbers for any name that appears in the trilogy. I wish I had my copy of Return of the King with me :smallfrown:

My paperback copy of Return of the King has a whole series of appendices, and as tuggyne mentions the name Ithilduin doesn't show up at all. I don't think it appears anywhere in the text of the novels. The Places index lists two occurrences of Morgulduin, II:388 and III:103, which tugguyne also pegged. The first is in The Two Towers, "Journey to the Cross-Roads," two days after Faramir let Frodo go on his way:


Frodo shuddered as he looked again at the distant pinnacles now dwindling into night, and the sound of the water seemed cold and cruel: the voice of Morgulduin, the polluted stream that flowed from the Valley of the Wraiths.

The second is from The Return of the King, "The Siege of Gondor," when Faramir is speaking to Gandalf and Denethor:


"I parted with them in the morning two days ago," said Faramir. "It is fifteen leagues thence to the vale of the Morgulduin, if they went straight south; and then they would still be five leagues westward of the accursed Tower."

Connecting Ithilduin to Morgulduin is the obscure part; I'm not sure how strygalldwir managed that. Karen Wynn Fonstad only lists Morgulduin on her map on p. 92 (appropriately enough, since that was the name in Frodo's time); I had to look that up in J.E.A. Tyler's New Tolkien Companion to find a mention of Ithilduin, which doesn't have an entry of its own.

So, my hat's off to strygalldwir for his subtlety of Arda-lore, and thanks to everyone else for the comments. Morgulduin is exactly what I was looking for. Alas, it's all too appropriate for the stream right now, but maybe with some work it can become Ithilduin again.

[shawnhcorey]

Well, it kinda makes sense:

Ithilduin—river of the moon

Morgulduin—river of the wraiths

Minas Ithil—tower of the moon

Minas Arnor—tower of the sun

Minas Tirith—tower of the guard

Minas Morgul—tower of the wraiths

Ithilduin is not mentioned in the Wikipedia list of Middle-Earth riveres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Middle-earth_rivers).

[nedz]

I found a reference The History of Middle-earth, vol. VIII, The War of the Ring: "Kirith Ungol," p. 181 (drawing of Minas Morghul and the Cross-roads); "The Second Map," p. 436.
Since I do not have this book it would be useful if someone could verify this.

Morgul means Dark-Sorcerery BTW.