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Dire Panda
2013-03-16, 11:51 AM
TL;DR version: Do you know of any third-party or homebrew rules for population/economic growth, governance, and the like?

Lately I've begun planning for a fairly ambitious campaign: as some of the few remaining spellcasters in a post-apocalyptic fantasy world, the PCs find themselves the leaders of a small town. Over the next several decades or even centuries - possibly longer than the lifespans of short-lived characters - they are tasked with building that single town into an entire rebuilt civilization, mitigating the effects of the cataclysm, and possibly discovering/correcting its origins.

Now, I've already done a fair amount of homebrew - most notably ritual spellcasting centered around monoliths (either found in ancient ruins, giving the PCs incentive to build new towns on them, or built by the PCs and their followers) - but I can't find a good resource for rules on nation-building and governance. Have any of you had success using third-party or homebrew rules for that sort of thing? Or is another RPG better suited to this task?

Specifically, I'm looking for figures on population/economic growth, good resolution mechanics for governmental challenges, dealing with racial/cultural unrest and rebellions, and the like. I'm not worried about traditional adventuring - recovering lost magic/technology and taking care of rival warlords will be plenty - but that's only going to be one side of the campaign. I want the players to feel like they're really building their own world.

EDIT: To be clear, the current plan is to alternate "traditional" adventures with long periods of downtime during which the civilization-building happens. Obvious the two will tie into each other - if you're trying to found a settlement somewhere dangerous, you'll need to clear out the traps and monsters first. Conversely, the knowledge and items found while adventuring can contribute to civilization-building. Once the PCs have accumulated followers, apprentices, and eventually a standing army, they'll be able to 'automatically' resolve the lesser adventures during downtime so they can focus on the big stuff.

EDIT2: If it helps, more world information: Most of the world was absolutely ravaged by an unknown magical cataclysm. The sky is darkened by dust in the upper atmosphere (and occasional colorful bursts of toxic fumes descend), most of the land is polluted and no longer arable, planar connections are cut off, huge canyons were torn in the earth, and almost all of the old cities were reduced to rubble. All of these and more are intended to be eventually fixable. The majority of the surviving population (of all the common races) are either nomadic or clustered in small subsistence farming communities. Attracting these people to the players' cities could provide a quick population boost, assuming they can be educated and culturally integrated, but otherwise the players will have to breed their own followers.

ericgrau
2013-03-16, 12:05 PM
Sounds difficult. You'd practically need a whole new gaming system, and hope that whoever made it did a good job to get it balanced.

But if you don't mind making the world run by DM fiat like most DMs do, then Gygax wrote some world building material. "Nation Builder" is one.

CaladanMoonblad
2013-03-16, 04:59 PM
Here are some useful stats from the Domesday Book when William the Conqueror took over England.

-2 acres of wheat will feed a single person for a year (acreage yields greatly increase with modern farming such that 1/3 acre of wheat will feed a single person for a year)
-the typical family farm is 15-20 acres, and requires about 6 people to farm it year round
-thus, like 90% of your population is engaged in food production sans magic creation (like clerics)

Larkas
2013-03-16, 05:18 PM
I... Don't know how to help you with that endeavor. However, your campaign idea is AWESOME!!!!!! I'd totally like to play, or even DM, such a game. Please, post a campaign journal somewhere when you start playing it, it is something I'd very much like to read!

That said, a few pointers: I don't think there are such rules for a d20 environment. You'd be pretty much better off finding another system. An idea: use the d20 rules for the adventuring bits, and see if you can find rules for strategic games concerning civilization building. You could probably even convert the attributes, or even have a custom character sheet, with bits for D&D and bits for such a game. Anyways, I really don't know of any system that could fit the bill. But please, let us know when you do find it!

Ravenica
2013-03-16, 05:28 PM
the pathfinder kingmaker campaign might suite your needs, the second book specifically has city/kingdom growth rules. it may need tweaking to suit your setting better but it would give you a place to start

Laserlight
2013-03-16, 06:19 PM
I think you might have more luck in the Worldbuilding section, but I'll also point out that the path your civilization follows is extremely sensitive to your assumptions on things like population growth per species, carrying capacity, availability of magic to counter plagues, effects of warfare, and so forth. Which is to say, I don't think you're going to find an existing set of rules to do what you want.

Larkas
2013-03-16, 09:58 PM
I've been searching a little, and maybe you could try adapting Civilization: The Board Game's rules for your needs. I've never played it, but take a look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization:_The_Board_Game).

EDIT: I also found this thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?179521-Empire-Building-Management). Maybe Birthright's rules might be a nice bet! Also, something about a "Fields of Blood" product seems like it could suit your needs.

EDIT2: Yep, this (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/691/Fields-of-Blood%3A-The-Book-of-War?it=1) might be it!

Dire Panda
2013-03-17, 10:02 PM
Larkas: Fields of Blood is wonderful as a jumping-off point. I'll definitely be using that, thanks for the find!

And those Domesday Book stats don't look half-bad. Maybe I'll use those and similar real-world stats to come up with an Excel spreadsheet to chart their empire's details between sessions...

Alefiend
2013-03-17, 10:11 PM
You might get some mileage out of Paizo's Kingmaker adventure path. The premise is that your characters have been given a charter to start a new kingdom, and the rules support that.

Skysaber
2013-03-17, 11:25 PM
TL;DR version: Do you know of any third-party or homebrew rules for population/economic growth, governance, and the like?


Governance you might want to look at Dynasties and Demagogues, the Sourcebook of Political Intrique by Penumbra. Although admittedly it is more about power struggles within an established kingdom, that will happen eventually.

AEG Empire is a source I reference often. It does a good job on some things, not so good at presenting a comprehensive "this is everything you need to run a nation" book, although it does try. It does have some very good stuff, and focuses on realm creation, clearing land, different races drawing different levels of resource out of their favored terrain, etc. Also how loyal your people are to you. And they have an excellent section on how fighters make for different leaders of kingdoms than wizards, priests, bards, barbarians, etc.

Actually, under their rules a straight-up, plain vanilla fighter has some excellent advantages over anyone else in building up a high quality army.

Strongholds & Dynasties by Mongoose covers just about all of the weaknesses in AEG Empire, and does it very well. It's a great book. I still like to combine it with some of the great original ideas in AEG Empire, but it's got a level of detail you'll need to make building up an empire feel like more than just a board game.

Divided into sections, it has one on what and how to build, who builds it, and various difficulties to overcome, and then a long section on running your kingdom after you've built it up. The Mechanics of Government section takes up a good half the book and covers everything you'll probably need, from choosing people to run things, planting and harvests to recruiting armies.

Although Fields of Blood has sections on building and governing, they are more than a little minimalist, there mostly to serve as background to the interesting battles it can set up.

On the other hand, while the other two have mass combat systems, they aren't the focus, so Fields of Blood is probably stronger in that department.

I basically use the four combined, as they all have strengths the others lack.

Yahzi
2013-03-18, 06:34 AM
TL;DR version: Do you know of any third-party or homebrew rules for population/economic growth, governance, and the like?
It's what I live for. :D Check out the worldbook in my sig, although it's not as complete as you'd like. I am working on it though. One thing to note is that Caladan is right: something like 95% of the Viking population were farmers.

The other option is Adventurer Conqueror King (http://www.autarch.co/), which sounds great (but is 1E based instead of 3E).

Dire Panda
2013-03-19, 06:05 PM
*checks this month's gaming budget*

I'm going to have to sell a minor organ, but I'll definitely check all of those books out. Strongholds and Dynasties in particular sounds great.

Skysaber
2013-03-19, 09:00 PM
*checks this month's gaming budget*

I'm going to have to sell a minor organ, but I'll definitely check all of those books out. Strongholds and Dynasties in particular sounds great.

It is. If I had to pick any of the four to own, Strongholds and Dynasties would be the one. It's 250 pages of solid, well-thought-out material on what to do and why to do it as to what makes kingdoms work. However, if it had a weakness that would be not enough number crunching. That's why it works best paired with one of those books that presents a too simplified, board game style of kingdom operation.

It ought to work great paired with either AEG Empire of Fields or Blood, in fact you could run your whole campaign just on Strongholds & Dynasties plus one of those two. Fields of Blood truly is stronger on presenting a simple, strong system that's especially geared for war (one might even say too simple. Played alone it feels like a board game) but AEG Empire has it beat for original ideas (like "what if my army had units of mummies?") and making each base class have different abilities as a ruler. In fact I'd probably say it's much stronger on rulers in general.

Both will let you clear terrain and start settlements, build infrastructure, etc.

It takes a while before cutthroat politics enters the picture, so Dynasties and Demagogues can be left for last - although it can be frightening in some of the things it does, like a maxed-out Information Network feat "You knew this last week, and are only just recalling it now."