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View Full Version : Alteration on daggers.



flawed.Perfection
2006-11-15, 10:20 AM
Let's face it; Daggers are useless. D4 damage die, and only a mediocre crit range. But I like the sneakiness of a dagger, so I thought I'd change it, but stumbled upon a dilemma. The first idea I had was to offer a second attack for every attack you make, since it's a small weapon. Then again, that might be a bit too strong, especially for rogues (sneak attack will be a killer...)

My second idea is a bit more balanced. Basically, what I want to do is trade the damage for crit chance; They already did it with scimitar and rapier; One-handed melee weapons with a lower damage die than the usual standard, but an improved crit range.

So I thought of improving the dagger to have a 17-20 crit range, and still keep the x2 multiplier. I really don't see the downside to this idea. You crit more on average, but with the restrictions on keen weapons and improved critical, you won't be able to stack it up immensly. So with the feat or the weapon ability you'll get it to 13-20, which is a lot, but only still gives you (1d4 + strength modifier) x2. A bit more than a regular longsword hit.

Does anyone see any objections to this?

grinner666
2006-11-15, 10:40 AM
Only that it's extremely unrealistic. There's a reason the dagger's been a secondary weapon ever since the invention of the spear (or "dagger-on-a-stick" :smallsmile: ); it's a lousy weapon by comparison. So it SHOULD be a lousy weapon in-game.

Larrin
2006-11-15, 11:00 AM
i'm forced to agree, daggers are at the bottom of the damage chart for a reason. They are the smallest, least useful weapon. but they have FLAVOR, and concealability, and so they survive. plus they are the only bladed weapons wizards can use. There is nothing in a dagger that would warrant an increased threat range, and no reason to do so. All weapons are NOT made equal, so no reason the dagger needs to try and keep up.

Khantalas
2006-11-15, 11:12 AM
So I thought of improving the dagger to have a 17-20 crit range, and still keep the x2 multiplier. I really don't see the downside to this idea. You crit more on average, but with the restrictions on keen weapons and improved critical, you won't be able to stack it up immensly. So with the feat or the weapon ability you'll get it to 13-20, which is a lot, but only still gives you (1d4 + strength modifier) x2. A bit more than a regular longsword hit.

But improved critical stacks with keen magical ability. Which will give a dagger a critical range of 9-20. What only the bladed gauntlet could have before. Which inflicts the same type and die of damage, and is an EXOTIC weapon if I remember correctly.

Besides, the dagger was only worth using in 3.0, where small creatures could use short swords as one-handed weapons and daggers as light weapons, and this combination was the standard for small rangers.

Now it's just for flavor. Not even worth it when your DM allows "assassin's fullblade".

Yuki Akuma
2006-11-15, 11:14 AM
But improved critical stacks with keen magical ability

No it doesn't.

And daggers are useful as throwing weapons. They weigh next to nothing, are concealable, can be used to TWF-Rapid Shot at no further penalty due to size...

For halfling fighters and rogues they're awesome. Everyone else? Not so much.

Khantalas
2006-11-15, 11:18 AM
Wait? Since when?

Did 3.5 change that without telling me?

NOTE: It DID stack in 3.0, as FR Campaign Setting showed where a keen rapier had 12-20 critical range in the hands of a character with Improved Critical (rapier).

Yuki Akuma
2006-11-15, 11:20 AM
Wait? Since when?

Did 3.5 change that without telling me?

No, 3.5 changed it and specifically spelled it out in the descriptions of both Improved Critical and Keen.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCritical

"This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon. This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon."

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#keen

"This benefit doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/keenEdge.htm) spell or the Improved Critical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCritical) feat). "

Khantalas
2006-11-15, 11:30 AM
Then what sense does having both make? Is it some "sacrifice enhancement-bonus-or-feat" issue? Or is it like making Vorpal work only on 20 rather than every critical hit, to make criticals come into play less often and matter less?

Yuki Akuma
2006-11-15, 11:32 AM
The point of having them unstackable is to stop people critting on a bloody 9.

Khantalas
2006-11-15, 11:43 AM
Or 12. Which is a great improvement considering now the best crit range a greataxe can have is 19-20.

Still, even when it did stack, the only weapons worthy of taking both were those with natural crit ranges of 18-20 or greater. Even a longsword had 10 percent change.

Still, a bladed gauntlet IS an exotic weapon, right? If we agree to this, wouldn't a dagger have to be an exotic weapon?

Closet_Skeleton
2006-11-15, 11:51 AM
The point of having them unstackable is to stop people critting on a bloody 9.

Quite...

In 3rd ed you could be a power attacking Falchion weapon master (Kensei in OA) and crit 50% of the time, assuming you only had a 50/50 chance of hitting anyway that's an effective 100% crit rate if you have power critical as well. Then you'd deal 4d4 (not because it's powerful, d4 are just 1337) + 3x your strength damage + whatever times your power attack on practically every hit. There's a reason why Weapon Master has never been re-published for 3.5 and they used a different Kensei in Complete Warrior.

If you want to improve daggers I would increase the multiplier not the threat range. If a person is less than a foot deepit doesn't matter if he has one foot or three feet of steel in his heart. I'd believe a dagger dealing 3d4 on a crit compared to 2d8 on a longsword but higher threat range than a Kukhri makes Kukhri either redundant or needing to be made even worse, i.e. instant throat hit.

Personnally I wouldn't improve daggers. Daggers have the same advantage as the Walther PPK in d20 modern. If you want a weapon when the enemy don't think you have one then you have to compromise. You want daggers to be a legitimate weapon then involve the characters in Espionage, don't give a weapon rediculous game breaking stats. When most of the damage is from sneak attack dice anyway d4 base isn't that relevent.

XtheYeti
2006-11-15, 01:28 PM
Dagers are good the way they are, they are realistic enough and if you improve them then every one would use them... not realistic

Squatting_Monk
2006-11-15, 02:36 PM
NOTE: It DID stack in 3.0, as FR Campaign Setting showed where a keen rapier had 12-20 critical range in the hands of a character with Improved Critical (rapier).
The Keen property and Improved critical do not stack per se. Rather, they overlap. A rapier (crit 18-20x2) that is keened has its threat range doubled (crit 15-20x2). The Improved Critical feat doubles the threat range of the original weapon, not the keen weapon. So a Keen rapier used with Improved Critical would be triple the range of the original weapon, not a cumulative quadruple (crit 12-20x2).

Khantalas
2006-11-15, 02:48 PM
And in D&D, 2 x 2 = 3. Unless you have Knowledge (mathematics).

Triaxx
2006-11-15, 04:22 PM
*cough* Meanwhile, back at the original topic...

I do think Daggers need an improvement, but I think the improvement should come in the form of more useful, and deadly daggers, instead of modifying the basic weapons. Instead, how about certain enhancements to the weapons themselves.

Serrated Edge: Daggers with a serrated edge are not as durable as standard daggers, but deal 1d6 damage.

Saw Edge: Daggers with Saw Edges deal an additional 1 point of damage for four rounds after each successfull normal attack, with a reflex save for half duration.

Hook Point: Hook pointed Daggers do an additional +3 damage on each attack. A fort save negates the extra damage.

Poinard: Increases the dagger's crit range to 18-20, and multiplier to 3, but may not be keen, and is not effected by Keen Edge Spell, or Improved Critical Feat.

flawed.Perfection
2006-11-15, 05:53 PM
Many good ideas offered, and good reasons why not to raise the crit range. I do sort of agree, now it's mentioned. Maybe I should run a campaign with a strict no-weapon-rule enforced in cities... that makes them think more on concealment.

Triaxx: I like your ideas. About the hook point dagger though... Maybe give it a bonus to disarm?

Proven_Paradox
2006-11-15, 05:57 PM
Yeah, I see no need to improve daggers as is. The only class that's going to use them very often will be rogues, and I doubt most rogues care a whole lot about the base damage when they're sneak attacking. It's a good choice for rogues as-is because it gets a concielment bonus, which can be very important for them.

grinner666
2006-11-15, 08:00 PM
Hmmm.

I had a rogue recently who used the dagger (it was the weapon with the highest enchantment the party had) until 8th level. Once you start adding skill-based damage (sneak attack, [sometimes] ranger bonuses, etc.) there's little difference between the dagger and the lighter swords (shortsword, rapier). So the dagger will always have a use ... for those who know how to use them effectively.

Again, no enhancements are necessary. The weapon's right as it is.

Triaxx
2006-11-15, 09:06 PM
Triaxx: I like your ideas. About the hook point dagger though... Maybe give it a bonus to disarm?

Where it came from, it was a Saw-edged, hook pointed dagger. The idea was it slid in easy, and was dragging all sorts of inside parts when it was pulled out. Hence the extra damage on those two options.


Yeah, I see no need to improve daggers as is. The only class that's going to use them very often will be rogues, and I doubt most rogues care a whole lot about the base damage when they're sneak attacking. It's a good choice for rogues as-is because it gets a concielment bonus, which can be very important for them.

Incidently, the hook pointed dagger I mentioned, does it's additional damage on a sneak attack as well, unless the fort save is made. And the Saw Edge as well.


So the dagger will always have a use ... for those who know how to use them effectively.

Entirely true, but is a sword limited to a single type of short sword? Are you limited to plain greatswords? I think not. Then we of the wizardly persuasion should not be limited to daggers, and rusted daggers.

Nor should our Rogues must make do with short swords, and toothpick daggers.


Yeah, I see no need to improve daggers as is. The only class that's going to use them very often will be rogues, and I doubt most rogues care a whole lot about the base damage when they're sneak attacking. It's a good choice for rogues as-is because it gets a concielment bonus, which can be very important for them.

Incidently, the hook pointed dagger I mentioned, does it's additional damage on a sneak attack as well, unless the fort save is made. And the Saw Edge as well.

We aren't necessarily saying, these are horrid weapons (we admit that), nor are we saying, let's get 1d12 damage for our daggers, and then add enchantments. We simply want a dagger that serves as more than just a pitiful last line of defense. If the enemy sneaks up on my wizard and silences him, he's down to his dagger for defense, and if he can drive it in and do enough damage to make the arrows of his allies finish the job, that's less I have to worry about restoring him or her to life every other round.

hyenahyena
2006-11-15, 11:04 PM
well the problem is that dnd daggers are honestly statted out pretty damn well. Aside from creating a bunch of different dagger types (and there are some very spiffy ones in this thread), a fairly solid option might be to custom design some feats spesifically FOR daggers.

Maybe a feat to increase crit-threat range when flanking? Daggers really do work best when they're used on an opponent who is off guard, or off balance, so a set of feats to improve on this would not only fit into the flavor of what a dagger is, it would downright be logical.

Keeping the feats themed to applying when an opponend is denied his dexterity bonus to AC, you may have feats increase crit range, increase to hit, increase damage, Hell you might even want to consider doing a whole chain of feats, like whirlwind or spring attack.

But yeah, thats a pretty solid way to go about it. Dnd daggers are a fairly accurate representation of the weapon, its the people USING the daggers, that need a better way to handle them : ) at least thats my little opinion.

Proven_Paradox
2006-11-16, 12:07 AM
If you REALLY want to make daggers more effective, check out the Invisible Blade PrC that starts on page 44 of Complete Warrior.

Also, one thing that bothered me...


If the enemy sneaks up on my wizard and silences him, he's down to his dagger for defense, and if he can drive it in and do enough damage to make the arrows of his allies finish the job, that's less I have to worry about restoring him or her to life every other round.

In that situation, a wizard should be *completely hosed.* First off, said wizard needs to learn to keep that from happening, and there are lots of ways to do that. Secondly, if we give wizards (or rogues, as the case may be) good weapons in addition to their other cool abilities/spells, what does that leave for the Fighters, Barbarians, and Paladins out there, are rely on using their heavier, higher damage weapons? There has to be balance in the game, and one element of that balance is making classes with cool abilities have to deal with less cool equipment. I think the dagger needs to stay where it is.


Heh, looks like I ninja'd OOB. Woo.

TheOOB
2006-11-16, 12:07 AM
Daggers are allready great, their cheep, concealable, light, slashing and piercing, throwable, and they don't attract much attention (Even in secure locations people rarely require you to check your dagger as they are considered more of a tool, eating implement, and status symbol then weapon.)

If you really want to be good with daggers, take levels in invisible blade.

Merlin the Tuna
2006-11-16, 12:34 PM
Daggers actually have more "points" than a light simple weapon should, largely because of this coolness factor. Compare the stats for a dagger to a punching dagger. Oh look, the dagger is ahead in all respects. Or how about the dagger to the kukri? The kukri's a martial light weapon, so it should be one step better than the dagger. This is reflected by dealing the same damage with a wider crit range. But wait! The dagger can do 2 types of damage, has a range increment for throwing, and gets a bonus to Sleight of Hand checks!

The dagger is already better than it statistically should be. Leave it be. Besides, the power of a dagger has never been represented by pulling it out and dashing into battle. As it goes, "A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords at dawn."

BlueWizard
2006-11-16, 01:53 PM
Use the Kukri, it has expanded Crit!
The low damage is for a reason it is a DAGGER!

Triaxx
2006-11-16, 02:35 PM
In that situation, a wizard should be *completely hosed.* First off, said wizard needs to learn to keep that from happening, and there are lots of ways to do that. Secondly, if we give wizards (or rogues, as the case may be) good weapons in addition to their other cool abilities/spells, what does that leave for the Fighters, Barbarians, and Paladins out there, are rely on using their heavier, higher damage weapons? There has to be balance in the game, and one element of that balance is making classes with cool abilities have to deal with less cool equipment. I think the dagger needs to stay where it is.

My Wizard isn't going to be running around carrying a full battle axe in heavy plate. Besides, I don't have the HP to be in the middle of battle anyway, plus, I've got other things I need to be doing, such as casting spells to keep your Fighters, Barbarians, and Paladins from being overwhelmed by various and sundry foes. Besides, if want to charge into a battle, I'm going to be using a Quarterstaff instead.

While yes, there are ways to avoid that, but they do tend to run out, and chances are it's in the middle of a battle, where I'm busy with other things and don't have time to refresh the protection.


The low damage is for a reason it is a DAGGER!

And if I stick it in a creature's throat, it's going to end up with a fatal wound. Don't underestimate it just because it's small. (I sound like a halfling advocacy group.)


Aside from creating a bunch of different dagger types (and there are some very spiffy ones in this thread), a fairly solid option might be to custom design some feats spesifically FOR daggers.

Thank you. I do note that Hook pointed, and Saw-edged daggers are not eligible for throwing. As for creating feats for them, that's fine for Rogues, but spell casters tend to have other feats they more or less have to have to get by. Most spell casters won't use up a feat on something they'll never, or only rarely use. Exchanging a plain dagger for one with a bit more pizzazz, or stopping power isn't going to turn them into whirling dervishes of destruction.

My Sorceror would never bother with a feat for fighting, but always grabs a new weapon when he can get one, whether he'll ever use it or not.

Matthew
2006-11-16, 04:15 PM
Daggers are already perfectly good weapons in D&D. If you were looking to improve them along more 'realistic' lines, you might consider giving them an advantage in a grappling situation (which is where the Dagger really does come into its own - there's a reason Ancient and Medieval Warriors habitually carried a longer and shorter blade). I would suggest reducing the penalty from -4 to -2 or 0, if you are feeling particularly generous. That might give a D&D Warrior a substantial reason to carry a Long Sword and Dagger over a Long Sword and Short Sword, which is my main beef with the D&D Dagger.