Now That's Value! 3.P

[Tvtyrant]

I'm looking for alternate systems of currency based on using permanent magic items. I'm thinking Lesser Schema would act as larger denominations, but I need relatively cheap magic items to act as the smaller denominations. The items should be both useful and permanent, so that using them does not remove them from circulation.

Thanks in advance!

[TuggyNE]

At-will custom item of prestidigitation?

Everburning torch?

Not really sure how cheap you're looking for here.

[RFLS]

You can get the use-activated prestidigitation item lower by making it 1/day. Brings it to 200 base price, which is fairly manageable. Bonus points if it's a coin, the activation method is flipping it, and the effect is that the coin lands on heads.

[TuggyNE]

You can get the use-activated prestidigitation item lower by making it 1/day. Brings it to 200 base price, which is fairly manageable. Bonus points if it's a coin, the activation method is flipping it, and the effect is that the coin lands on heads.

Actually, if you want that, you should just make it so the result is the coin lands on its edge. Harder to fake, especially if flipped by the person checking it.

[Tvtyrant]

The 1/day coin of awesome is really good! I don't think we are going to get much cheaper than that, and the effect is good enough for everyone to want them (like having a once per day laundromat/cooking card!)

In fact they are exactly what I wanted! Are there any cheaper permanent-use items?

[RFLS]

Actually, if you want that, you should just make it so the result is the coin lands on its edge. Harder to fake, especially if flipped by the person checking it.

Ooh, nice one. Anti-forgery that's pointless to forge because it's the cheapest way to make it already.

[Tvtyrant]

I bet no one would accept them if you used up that days charge. You basically waste a charge in the exchange.

[TuggyNE]

I bet no one would accept them if you used up that days charge. You basically waste a charge in the exchange.

I think that's acceptable, as long as you figure you aren't generally going to be spending money you just got on the same day. (200gp is not pocket change, after all.)

Note, too, that this is still only for fairly large denominations, even with inflation and mage-driven automation and what-not.

Actually, it occurs to me that a bit of ad-hoc price reduction might not be a bad idea; given that it's a single instant instead of an hour, and given that it's a fixed manipulation instead of flexible, it should probably be more like 25 gp.

[Andezzar]

Make it 100 gp. That's 10 pp, so it fits well with the rest of the decimal system.

[Tvtyrant]

Make it 100 gp. That's 10 pp, so it fits well with the rest of the decimal system.

Rational currencies are for chumps! 31 GP worth, and 7 of them make a Crown! 10 PP sounds good to me.

[Waker]

Why would an item of 1/day prestidigitation be valued as currency though?
How about making a custom item that can store a spell? Sort of like a rechargeable scroll? The value of the item would be dependent on the maximum spell level that can be put onto it.

[Andezzar]

Why would an item of 1/day prestidigitation be valued as currency though?
How about making a custom item that can store a spell? Sort of like a rechargeable scroll? The value of the item would be dependent on the maximum spell level that can be put onto it.The problem with a rechargeable scroll is that only casters with identify or detect magic and the artificer's monocle can verify its authenticity.

A coin that lands on its edge can be verified by anyone and if its agreed value is equal to the production cost faking them won't even be worth it.

[Waker]

The problem with a rechargeable scroll is that only casters with identify or detect magic and the artificer's monocle can verify its authenticity.

A coin that lands on its edge can be verified by anyone and if its agreed value is equal to the production cost faking them won't even be worth it.

I meant more of the concept, not that the item would actually be a rechargeable scroll. The actual design could be a gem or bead, shaped piece of wood, rings made of different metals... Also the value of the item wouldn't be what spell is on it, just the fact that it can hold a spell.
Besides, if you are going to make the item look like a coin, why not just use a coin as currency?

[Re'ozul]

Ioun stones (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones)of all kinds could be a fun way. It also allows you to prominently display your wealth.

[Andezzar]

Besides, if you are going to make the item look like a coin, why not just use a coin as currency?Because value based on the mass of metal gets heavy pretty quickly. Carrying around actual pounds sterling (silver) instead of the notes gets pretty cumbersome.

[TuggyNE]

Besides, if you are going to make the item look like a coin, why not just use a coin as currency?

Because coins can be faked. And have been. Also, there's no particular reason to have it more than superficially resemble a coin.

[Andezzar]

And have been. Also, there's no particular reason to have it more than superficially resemble a coin.The idea came from the metal disc that through magic always lands on its edge. The coin/disc would not behave that way without magic and you cannot make the magic cheaper than a level 0 spell. So faking it won't be easy and it won't be financially beneficial to the faker.

You would however have a problem with the weird retail price/creation price rules.

[TypoNinja]

Because coins can be faked. And have been. Also, there's no particular reason to have it more than superficially resemble a coin.

That's why the coins are precious metals.

Notice the following prices on the trade goods table.


50 gp One pound of gold
500 gp One pound of platinum

Follow that up with the fact that coins are 50 to a lb, and the results are fairly obvious.

Your Gold coins are literally that, a coin of solid gold. That's why the origin of the coinage is usually irrelevant. Its not Fiat money like we have backed by a government, the coin is literally worth its face value.

You don't fake coins, you shave, clip, plate, or any number of other tricks to reduce the amount of actual gold you are handing over, but outright fakery would be pointless, nobody is going to care what your gold is stamped with as long as it weighs the right amount.

[Saidoro]

The value of gold is just as arbitrary as that of modern currency, but that's not really the point. The big problem with the magic currency you're proposing is that it requires a large amount of time and resources to create it, it would probably be cheaper to just make a currency that can be mass produced and then spend the massive amount you've saved to root out any counterfeiters.

[nedz]

That's why the coins are precious metals.
Notice the following prices on the trade goods table.
Follow that up with the fact that coins are 50 to a lb, and the results are fairly obvious.

Your Gold coins are literally that, a coin of solid gold. That's why the origin of the coinage is usually irrelevant. Its not Fiat money like we have backed by a government, the coin is literally worth its face value.



The value of gold is just as arbitrary as that of modern currency, but that's not really the point. The big problem with the magic currency you're proposing is that it requires a large amount of time and resources to create it, it would probably be cheaper to just make a currency that can be mass produced and then spend the massive amount you've saved to root out any counterfeiters.

Well you could set a price for 1lb of various metals which would change the conversion rates. IRL bi-metal currencies didn't work out too well because of Gresham's Law (Bad money drives out good). In D&D we have a quad-metal currency which shouldn't work at all. This is simplified for game reasons, which is the same problem with the idea of this thread: valuable 'currencies' would disappear from the market.

I did use to run a Wish Bourse, where wishes were traded as investments. You can do this with lower level scrolls. This is no different to people investing and trading in commodities today. They are both consumables, but they are also tradeable. Whether you want to add this level of detail into your campaign is debatable. I do it only sparingly if I have players who like this sort of thing; most players don't: they want to kill things and take their stuff, not play the markets. The game isn't called Demand and Derivatives.

[LeshLush]

Rational currencies are for chumps! 31 GP worth, and 7 of them make a Crown! 10 PP sounds good to me.
Preach it!

[Andezzar]

Rational currencies are for chumps! 31 GP worth, and 7 of them make a Crown! 10 PP sounds good to me.If you don't want rational multipliers make a crown worth π gp
:smalltongue: SCNR

[Jack_Simth]

Ioun stones (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones)of all kinds could be a fun way. It also allows you to prominently display your wealth.Everburning Torchs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#everburningTorch), only put the enchantment on something *other* than a torch (like a coin). Sure, the list price is 110 gp... however, if you're going to be mass-manufacturing them, there's a much easier way to get a lot of them. The lowly Lantern Archon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#lanternArchon) gets the spell as an at-will spell-like ability (caster level 3), has only one hit die, a Charisma score of 10, and thus makes a really good target for Lesser Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) or Lesser Planar Ally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm). If we go with lesser planar ally (for the easily-defined costs). Having a Lantern Archon make things light up would seem to fit "strongly aligned with the creature’s ethos", and if we want a few thousand of them, we should probably go with "a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level". Note that enchanting pebbles is pretty clearly "A nonhazardous task" and thus only requires half payment. So we're talking 125 gp to pay to the lantern archon (half of half of 500 gp/hd), 500 gp to pay for the 100 XP component of the Lesser Planar Ally spell, and 4*7*10 gp for the spell itself = 905 gp to hire it done (Planar Binding can get more pebbles, but is riskier, and has a higher hire cost due to the various extras that are needed - Dimensional Anchor, Magic Circle Against Law [do NOT use Magic Circle Against Good], and of course the calling diagram). As to what that gives us: 7 hours of 1 standard action per round to light up a pebble (make sure to line them up nice and neatly before Calling the Lantern Archon). 60 minutes per hour, 10 rounds per minute, that's 4,200 pebbles to enchant for 905 gp. Mass production cost of about 0.215 gp per pebble. There's your value of your coin. It is easy to identify (a pebble - or a copper coin, or a wooden coin, or whatever object) that gives off light like a torch, but lasts basically forever, and doesn't burn your hand at all. It has a simple use (lighting places up), it doesn't wear out (permanent spell), and it has an obvious effect that is trivial to identify (light like a torch). And, of course, the only methods for forging these are either doing them yourself (which can be done... of course, good luck getting a Lawful-Good Lantern Archon from a Planar Ally spell while involved in forgery....) or a 50 gp material component.

[Tvtyrant]

Its not Fiat money like we have backed by a government, the coin is literally worth its face value.

All currencies are essentially Fiat. They have no inherent worth (gold wasn't even useful when we used it for currency) except what people agreed on. These coins use permanent magic to have a constant worth (cleaning or spices).

If it was a consumable worth it would be equally worthless as currency, but it doesn't.

[Friv]

The idea came from the metal disc that through magic always lands on its edge. The coin/disc would not behave that way without magic and you cannot make the magic cheaper than a level 0 spell. So faking it won't be easy and it won't be financially beneficial to the faker.

You would however have a problem with the weird retail price/creation price rules.

Just as a thought - a level 1 wizard with Silent Spell could forge coins by just casting Prestidigitation as he flips a totally nonmagical coin, giving him a day's head start on the guy he gave it to. He could do this for several coins per day, stealing potentially hundreds of GP.

[It's possible that this would actually require Still and Silent spell, depending on if the wizard has enough Bluff to fake the somatic components. If it did, it would require Level 3 and two feats - still quite possible for con men, but a bit trickier.]

[TypoNinja]

All currencies are essentially Fiat. They have no inherent worth (gold wasn't even useful when we used it for currency) except what people agreed on. These coins use permanent magic to have a constant worth (cleaning or spices).

If it was a consumable worth it would be equally worthless as currency, but it doesn't.

I think you've misunderstood the difference between different types of currencies.

Fiat money is literally worthless, like the 20 dollar bills in your pocket now, its a piece of funny colored paper, that only has value because everybody agrees to pretend it does. The core of that delusion is the government promising to accept it as payment of taxes, so it has theoretical value. This is why different currencies are worth more or less based on the economic strength of the issuing nation.

A gold coin is not fiat money just because you can't think of a good use for that gold in a pre-electronic society. Because its still a commodity, The gold coin is still 1/50th of a lb of gold, and a lb of gold is worth 50 coins. Where as your 20 dollar bill does not include 20 dollars worth of paper.

Precious metals currencies are still at their core a barter system, its just been standardized a bit more than the "5 apples for a loaf of bread" level, because when you pay in coinage you are literally handing over a certain weight in gold for the goods you have purchased.

Its not about if it has inherent worth or not, or even if it's only valued out of consensus, the fact is gold was valued because it was gold. Where as a nations currency would be useless absent the existence if the issuing country. On the other hand, Aztec gold is still gold even though there isn't an Aztec nation anymore.

Incidentally just to nitpick, I suspect a goldsmith might object to your assertion that gold was useless. So would any noble who wore gold jewelry.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

[TuggyNE]

[…] Mass production cost of about 0.215 gp per pebble. There's your value of your coin. It is easy to identify (a pebble - or a copper coin, or a wooden coin, or whatever object) that gives off light like a torch, but lasts basically forever, and doesn't burn your hand at all. It has a simple use (lighting places up), it doesn't wear out (permanent spell), and it has an obvious effect that is trivial to identify (light like a torch). And, of course, the only methods for forging these are either doing them yourself (which can be done... of course, good luck getting a Lawful-Good Lantern Archon from a Planar Ally spell while involved in forgery....) or a 50 gp material component.

Good sir, I salute you. That's excellent, and will do very nicely.


Just as a thought - a level 1 wizard with Silent Spell could forge coins by just casting Prestidigitation as he flips a totally nonmagical coin, giving him a day's head start on the guy he gave it to. He could do this for several coins per day, stealing potentially hundreds of GP.

[It's possible that this would actually require Still and Silent spell, depending on if the wizard has enough Bluff to fake the somatic components. If it did, it would require Level 3 and two feats - still quite possible for con men, but a bit trickier.]

Jack_Simth has already basically nullified the main value of this, but I'll address this anyway. The idea is to have the person who checks the coin flip it; you might be able to argue that an attended object is immune to this fiddling. Otherwise, yeah, that's a weak spot.

[Coidzor]

Incidentally just to nitpick, I suspect a goldsmith might object to your assertion that gold was useless. So would any noble who wore gold jewelry.

And there's some suggestion that precious metals and gems are magically useful as spell components and in other ways so that they do have inherent worth as useful commodities in a magic-rich society that's not operating purely off of wishes.


I'm looking for alternate systems of currency based on using permanent magic items. I'm thinking Lesser Schema would act as larger denominations, but I need relatively cheap magic items to act as the smaller denominations. The items should be both useful and permanent, so that using them does not remove them from circulation.

Why is that?

[Jack_Simth]

Good sir, I salute you. That's excellent, and will do very nicely.Glad to be of service.

[Fyermind]

I tend to introduce Casters as ruler in my campaigns (makes sense right? If anyone was going to hold down a kingdom it would be some tier zero high level character). They use a distinct arcane mark system to denominate the value of coins. Arcane marks are ruled to be unique to the caster. (The text implies each caster can have only one mark, I am willing to take that a little further)

The Arcane marked coins (called marks) represent that the governing casters will exchange the marks for the casting of a spell of an appropriate value. Usually I rule that a marked coin is worth as much as the metal coin of it's type, and that a double marked coin is worth 1000 times that. The arcane mark itself is applied by machine that stamps them out much like in the real world. The metals themselves are not usually worth as much as the coins because of the ease of access to magic.

Of course similar fakes are not unheard of, and most businessmen have an item that can verify the caster level of the effect as the equivalent to modern day markers. Banks can get it perfect by using stronger divinations.

Anyone who commits forgery and gets caught (they are leaving a calling card behind that uniquely identifies them as the caster, a really bad idea) has to deal with the angry mages of the government. If they can handle that, they probably should have just taken whatever it was they wanted and called it a day.

[Jack_Simth]

Of course similar fakes are not unheard of, and most businessmen have an item that can verify the caster level of the effect as the equivalent to modern day markers. Banks can get it perfect by using stronger divinations.

Anyone who commits forgery and gets caught (they are leaving a calling card behind that uniquely identifies them as the caster, a really bad idea) has to deal with the angry mages of the government. If they can handle that, they probably should have just taken whatever it was they wanted and called it a day.Oh, there's an easy way around that. Don't use Arcane Mark to make the forgery. Forge the visible elements mundanely, possibly get some invisible ink that's lightly magical if it's needed, and then cast Magic Aura on the result. The magic aura now shows up as whatever you want - no save vs. things that merely detect auras (standard scanners) - and will negates vs. stronger ones (and incidentally, magic items have very poor saves) so you can pass it off easily to most merchants. The magic fades in a day at caster level 1. Plenty of time for valuable coins. No signature left behind.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Everburning Torchs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#everburningTorch), only put the enchantment on something *other* than a torch (like a coin). Sure, the list price is 110 gp... however, if you're going to be mass-manufacturing them, there's a much easier way to get a lot of them; The lowly Lantern Archon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#lanternArchon) gets the spell as an at-will spell-like ability (caster level 3), has only one hit die, a Charisma score of 10, and thus makes a really good target for Lesser Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) or Lesser Planar Ally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm).

If we go with lesser planar ally (for the easily-defined costs). Having a Lantern Archon make things light up would seem to fit "strongly aligned with the creature’s ethos", and if we want a few thousand of them, we should probably go with "a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level". Note that enchanting pebbles is pretty clearly "A nonhazardous task" and thus only requires half payment.

So we're talking 125 gp to pay to the lantern archon (half of half of 500 gp/hd), 500 gp to pay for the 100 XP component of the Lesser Planar Ally spell, and 4*7*10 gp for the spell itself = 905 gp to hire it done (Planar Binding can get more pebbles, but is riskier, and has a higher hire cost due to the various extras that are needed - Dimensional Anchor, Magic Circle Against Law [do NOT use Magic Circle Against Good], and of course the calling diagram). As to what that gives us: 7 hours of 1 standard action per round to light up a pebble (make sure to line them up nice and neatly before Calling the Lantern Archon). 60 minutes per hour, 10 rounds per minute, that's 4,200 pebbles to enchant for 905 gp.

Mass production cost of about 0.215 gp per pebble. There's your value of your coin. It is easy to identify (a pebble - or a copper coin, or a wooden coin, or whatever object) that gives off light like a torch, but lasts basically forever, and doesn't burn your hand at all. It has a simple use (lighting places up), it doesn't wear out (permanent spell), and it has an obvious effect that is trivial to identify (light like a torch). And, of course, the only methods for forging these are either doing them yourself (which can be done... of course, good luck getting a Lawful-Good Lantern Archon from a Planar Ally spell while involved in forgery....) or a 50 gp material component.

I see only one problem with this (other than formatting; maybe some paragraph brakes? :smallsmile:): a collection of these "coins" will rapidly become unbearably bright. I'd suggest adding some sort of thin coating to reduce the brightness to a dull glow.

Yeah, short-term forgeries in the form of faerie fire targets might become an issue but blinding anyone that has to work with even modestly large sums of money seems a bit more problematic to me.

[avr]

I see only one problem with this (other than formatting; maybe some paragraph brakes? :smallsmile:): a collection of these "coins" will rapidly become unbearably bright. I'd suggest adding some sort of thin coating to reduce the brightness to a dull glow.

Yeah, short-term forgeries in the form of faerie fire targets might become an issue but blinding anyone that has to work with even modestly large sums of money seems a bit more problematic to me.
If bankers all wear smoked glasses and dark suits, that's cool. People wanting to reduce the glare will need to stack the coins so that only the edges show; that's cool too. Problem?

BTW it's paragraph breaks not paragraph brakes.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If bankers all wear smoked glasses and dark suits, that's cool. People wanting to reduce the glare will need to stack the coins so that only the edges show; that's cool too. Problem?It's a good look, sure. The problem still comes from the fact that having a couple dozen coins stacked, something any business owner will see quite frequently with them valued at a little over 2sp each, will rapidly build up to a blinding glare. Seriously, look directly into a candle-flame in a well-lit room for a few moments and you'll get a sense for how unpleasant counting out a stack of these coins would get in short-order.


BTW it's paragraph breaks not paragraph brakes.

I know that. I'm just a bit ill at the moment. It probably won't be the last time I use the wrong one of a set of homonyms in the near future.

[Coidzor]

It's a good look, sure. The problem still comes from the fact that having a couple dozen coins stacked, something any business owner will see quite frequently with them valued at a little over 2sp each, will rapidly build up to a blinding glare. Seriously, look directly into a candle-flame in a well-lit room for a few moments and you'll get a sense for how unpleasant counting out a stack of these coins would get in short-order.

Do you get blinded when looking at a bonfire? :smallconfused: I suppose I might have just been having my bonfires be too small.

[Saidoro]

Spoiled for off-topicness

I think you've misunderstood the difference between different types of currencies.

Fiat money is literally worthless, like the 20 dollar bills in your pocket now, its a piece of funny colored paper, that only has value because everybody agrees to pretend it does. The core of that delusion is the government promising to accept it as payment of taxes, so it has theoretical value. This is why different currencies are worth more or less based on the economic strength of the issuing nation.
Gold is worthless unless you have one of two things: someone who will give you something for it or someone who will think better of you for having it. (Or access to one of a few manufacturing processes that don't really exist in DnD) Its value is exactly as fiated as paper money's is.

A gold coin is not fiat money just because you can't think of a good use for that gold in a pre-electronic society. Because its still a commodity, The gold coin is still 1/50th of a lb of gold, and a lb of gold is worth 50 coins. Where as your 20 dollar bill does not include 20 dollars worth of paper.A 20 dollar bill includes exactly 20 dollars worth of dollars. Which is actually more valuable than 20 dollars worth of gold because you don't have to find someone to buy it from you.

And there's some suggestion that precious metals and gems are magically useful as spell components and in other ways so that they do have inherent worth as useful commodities in a magic-rich society that's not operating purely off of wishes.
This, however is a very good point, and something I forgot. Gold actually does have some value outside of decoration in DnD.

I'm going to say this again: the fact that a currency costs as much to create as it is worth is a bug, not a feature. It sharply limits the amount of currency you can actually have floating around, the anti-forgery qualities hurt the issuing party as much as or more than they would any "forgers". Fyermind's idea on this is a really good one, the tokens themselves are pretty trivial to make, they can keep a long time and the risk being unable to pay back is enough to keep inflation reasonably low. And they even have the added benefit of being directly redeemable for service in order to get people on board in the first place.

[TypoNinja]

Spoiled for off-topicness

Gold is worthless unless you have one of two things: someone who will give you something for it or someone who will think better of you for having it. (Or access to one of a few manufacturing processes that don't really exist in DnD) Its value is exactly as fiated as paper money's is.
A 20 dollar bill includes exactly 20 dollars worth of dollars. Which is actually more valuable than 20 dollars worth of gold because you don't have to find someone to buy it from you.

This, however is a very good point, and something I forgot. Gold actually does have some value outside of decoration in DnD.

I'm going to say this again: the fact that a currency costs as much to create as it is worth is a bug, not a feature. It sharply limits the amount of currency you can actually have floating around, the anti-forgery qualities hurt the issuing party as much as or more than they would any "forgers". Fyermind's idea on this is a really good one, the tokens themselves are pretty trivial to make, they can keep a long time and the risk being unable to pay back is enough to keep inflation reasonably low. And they even have the added benefit of being directly redeemable for service in order to get people on board in the first place.

You appear to have missed the distinction as well. For the love of all that's holy please do a little research before making comments about the nature of currencies and barter.

I'd make another thread to explain the differences as its kind of off topic at this point, but honestly, it'd be little more than a link to Wikipedia, so I don't see much of a point.

[Saidoro]

I fully understand the distinction, I just think the distinction to be pointless. The difference between value backed by government and value backed by society is slim at best.