Deconstructing Hank's Energy Bow

[Jeff the Green]

A player that's joining my campaign wants to get Hank's Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a), but modified, and I'm having trouble figuring out how to price it.

For those of you who aren't familiar with it, it's a +2 longbow that needs no ammunition, because it fires bolts of force that do 2d6 damage. It also auto-adjusts to the user's Strength and allows Power Shots (like Power Attack). All together, it's 22,600 GP.

We're taking off the +2, since his class gives him a free weapon with an enchantment = 1/4 his level, which knocks off 8000 of the price to 14,600. We also want to drop the auto-adjust and Power Shot features, but leave the infinite force arrows. I'm fairly sure I'm going to make them still subject to DR, since overcoming DR is our Paladin's shtick*. But they'll still hit incorporeal/ethereal creatures with no miss chance, which, given it's Ravenloft, is a pretty decent ability.

So, what should the force ability be worth? It's obviously at least +4,000, since Serren (BoED) costs that, and any arrows fired from a Serren bow are ghost-touch.

*Though I'm willing to hear arguments for or against.

[Yuukale]

I tried to do this and here are the answers I got:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267168

[Snowbluff]

Well, if you drop the +2 to a +1 you'd cut 6kgp.

I can't say I agree with the bow being +3 with ~4kgp enhancements.

Bow of the Wintermoon has variable Strength. You can probably get that trait's cost from that. Since Relic powers aren't included in the price, it equals 1kgp. Keep in mind that's the same as getting +10 Str rating on a composite bow, so it sounds about right.

[andromax]

It's probably already priced too cheap as-is, if you give the 'bolts of force' an actual Force descriptor. (let's not get into that debate)

The Force property is already a +2 enhancement, so you're looking at a +4 weapon, with sized up weapon damage, and a feat that doesn't exist anywhere else in 3.5 all for 22k. That's 10k cheaper than a +4 weapon anywhere else.

[8wGremlin]

It's probably already priced too cheap as-is, if you give the 'bolts of force' an actual Force descriptor. (let's not get into that debate)

The Force property is already a +2 enhancement, so you're looking at a +4 weapon, with sized up weapon damage, and a feat that doesn't exist anywhere else in 3.5 all for 22k. That's 10k cheaper than a +4 weapon anywhere else.

But you have to be called Hank to use it, so in magic item crafting that is like a -30% cost reduction right there.

[Socratov]

But you have to be called Hank to use it, so in magic item crafting that is like a -30% cost reduction right there.

Well, you could make hank into a title :smallwink:

[Baroncognito]

In pathfinder, it would roughly be a Seeking (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/seeking) Endless Ammunition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/endless-ammunition) Longbow.

That would be a +3 weapon and cost you 18,000 gp.

I think, however, that Endless Ammunition is over priced. At it's very cheapest, if you didn't need to have a +1 weapon before making it endless ammunition, it would cost 8,000 gp.

If you want to make a quiver of Abundant Ammunition, for which you simply need to have 1 arrow in your quiver for each attack roll you make in a full attack action (and one extra with Manyshot), it would cost you 8,000 gp to never run out of arrows. It only costs 4,000 if you're willing to sacrifice your belt or shoulder slot for the quiver.

Advantages of Endless Ammunition: You don't need a quiver except for special material arrows.

Advantages of Quiver of Abundant Ammunition: Cheaper and you can use special arrows so long as they're mundane. If you have 10 adamantine arrows in the quiver, you can take all ten of the arrows out and at the end of your turn, the removed arrows disappear and 10 arrows of the same type appear in your quiver.

So I'd price the Endless Ammunition at a flat +8,000 or +10,000gp instead of as a +2 bonus.

With the lower estimate, you're looking at about 12,000 gp.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The Quiver of Plenty from Dragon Compendium costs 18000gp and gives you unlimited masterwork arrows of various materials.
Since the ammunition would be 2d6 force arrows it should cost at least that much, trading damage for versatility.

The normal force enhancement costs at least 8000 and doesn't increase damage or give endless ammo, so i'd price it at 20,000-25,000gp.
That makes it affordable around level 10 or 11 if you adhere to WBL which is a good point to get it imo (YMMV).

It's certainly not cheap, but it also gets you unlimited arrows of double damage that ignore DR and Incorporeality.

Making them subject to DR makes no sense imo, the whole point of force arrows is that they're energy.
Also, overcoming DR is hardly a "shtick", it's a basic requirement for physical damage dealers to function.

[StreamOfTheSky]

PF has adjustable strength as a flat +1000 gp cost, for what it's worth. I think that's pretty accurate for what it should be. Bow of the Wintermoon comes with relic powers and such, which makes it less clear a comparison.

I'd say keep it simple. Just deduct the enhancement from it in cost. The remainder is the flat +gp cost of all the special properties. Done. Might make it a bit powerful, but whatever. An archer isn't going to break the game.


(Isn't comparing it to the Force enhancement unfair? I thought Hank's does 2d6 regardless of bow size, while as a force bow on a guy that's enlarged with strongarm bracers is 3d6, for example)

[herrhauptmann]

PF has adjustable strength as a flat +1000 gp cost, for what it's worth. I think that's pretty accurate for what it should be. Bow of the Wintermoon comes with relic powers and such, which makes it less clear a comparison.

I'd say keep it simple. Just deduct the enhancement from it in cost. The remainder is the flat +gp cost of all the special properties. Done. Might make it a bit powerful, but whatever. An archer isn't going to break the game.

I agree. The cost of any Energy bow would end up at ~14k plus whatever taht of the base bow (which still has to be magic and masterwork before you can make it an energy bow).

So if you've already got a +2 splitting bow? (+6 cost I think), it'll be:
[(6^2) x2000 ] + 14000 + 315 (or whatever a MW bow costs)= 86315


(Isn't comparing it to the Force enhancement unfair? I thought Hank's does 2d6 regardless of bow size, while as a force bow on a guy that's enlarged with strongarm bracers is 3d6, for example)
Well people compare it to force, so they can figure out if it hits incorporeal targets or bypasses DR and/or Hardness.

[andromax]

(Isn't comparing it to the Force enhancement unfair? I thought Hank's does 2d6 regardless of bow size, while as a force bow on a guy that's enlarged with strongarm bracers is 3d6, for example)

Nothing in the item would suggest that adding sizing to it, or creating it large would prevent the normal weapon damage size increase. If hank got enlarged, so would his bow.