Launch Bolt optimization

[Soranar]

After reading the killer cantrip thread (found here : http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5826.0)

I couldn't help but notice a few flaws in their reasoning but the initial idea is still decent: even at 1d8 damage, that's a lot damage for a cantrip

First, about the flaws

-everyone seems to forget that the spell let you launch a bolt as if you fired it, meaning that launching a gargantuan crossbow bolt would net you a -6 to hit for a medium creature due to weapon size penalties

-the target of the spell is the bolt you fire , the spell then lets you shoot it at target of your choice, meaning that eschew material wouldn't work IMO since you still need to target the spell at the bolt you want to fire

-it's also a ranged attack , not ranged touch attack, so actually hitting something at higher level would take some doing. Never mind bypassing DR and such

-finally I (and more importantly my DM) disagree that you can lower a spell's level below 0 through metamagic reducers

Still, I don't find the spell is hopeless. With reach spell + chain spell I can launch up to 20 bolts a casting, 40 if it's also twinned and maybe even more with arcane fusion shenanigans.


I just need to find a way to :

-carry all those crossbow bolts with me (guessing a magic item can help with that)
-reduce the metamagic costs a bit (at least I'll need arcane thesis)
-improved my to hit somehow
-I'm also debating whether it's better to improve a single bolt's damage (fire 1 colossal crossbow bolt for 6d6 damage but with -8 to hit) or fire several, DR wise 1 bolt seems wiser. Especially if I combine it with true strike or something. I'd also save myself the need for reach spell and chain spell and used twinned spell/quicken spell instead

-and there's also other class features to consider, like sneak attack damage. Since the spell specifies that I launch the bolt as if I fired it, all sources of extra damage should apply (knowledge devotion, sneak attack, sudden strike, crossbow sniper, etc)

[ShurikVch]

-everyone seems to forget that the spell let you launch a bolt as if you fired it, meaning that launching a gargantuan crossbow bolt would net you a -6 to hit for a medium creature due to weapon size penalties Nope. You don't wield any weapon, you cast a spell. Game doesn't have penalties for casting spells on object of inappropriate size.


-the target of the spell is the bolt you fire , the spell then lets you shoot it at target of your choice, meaning that eschew material wouldn't work IMO since you still need to target the spell at the bolt you want to fire The target is whatever you shoot at. Bolt is material component.

[Soranar]

Nope. You don't wield any weapon, you cast a spell. Game doesn't have penalties for casting spells on object of inappropriate size.

The target is whatever you shoot at. Bolt is material component.

Nope, you can reread the spell for yourself

In the summary description

Target: One crossbow bolt in your possession

and in the long description

You cast this spell on a crossbow bolt

as for the second part, I can see how it's open to interpretation but ''as if you had fired it from a crossbow bolt'' means exactly that. If it's a gargantuan crossbow bolt, it has to be fired from a crossbow of appropriate size, unless I'm mistaken

[ShurikVch]

In that case spell just doesn't work at all! :smallfurious:
Because
Material Component: The crossbow bolt to be fired (1 sp). Material components are destroyed during casting, so spell will do nothing! :smallfrown:

[Curmudgeon]

-everyone seems to forget that the spell let you launch a bolt as if you fired it, meaning that launching a gargantuan crossbow bolt would net you a -6 to hit for a medium creature due to weapon size penalties
That's not how it works, actually. You need to pay attention to all the rules here.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all. If you are Medium size, you have the capability of firing a Medium light crossbow as a Medium simple ranged weapon. If you alter that to Gargantuan size you alter that designation to a Gargantuan simple ranged weapon. That designation is not any of "light, one-handed, or two-handed", because those are melee weapon categories. Consequently, any alteration of ranged weapon size means you can't wield it; that's the RAW.

[Soranar]

That's not how it works, actually. You need to pay attention to all the rules here. If you are Medium size, you have the capability of firing a Medium light crossbow as a Medium simple ranged weapon. If you alter that to Gargantuan size you alter that designation to a Gargantuan simple ranged weapon. That designation is not any of "light, one-handed, or two-handed", because those are melee weapon categories. Consequently, any alteration of ranged weapon size means you can't wield it; that's the RAW.

So never mind the gargantuan question then, you can fire a medium sized light crossbow bolt, period.

Guess I'd be better off casting a fell acid splash then

[StreamOfTheSky]

Enlarge Person + Strongarm Bracers would let you fire Huge bolts, wouldn't it?

Polymorphing to something even bigger (and having the bracers, of course) to get even bigger bolts to be launch-able?

I'm not sure how to make the things hit reliably, but i think such a build basically requires the Woodland Archer tactical feat, so all after the first miss have a +4 to hit. As for DR.... see if you can sneak in the Pathfinder feat, Clustered Shots?