Giving Dragons Swallow Whole

[Maquise]

I've noticed that dragons lack the Swallow Whole special attack, and was wondering how much effort it would take to give it to them, and whether or not it would be overpowered.

[JoshuaZ]

I've noticed that dragons lack the Swallow Whole special attack, and was wondering how much effort it would take to give it to them, and whether or not it would be overpowered.

It wouldn't be overpowered- any turn a dragon is using swallow hole it is probably going to be using a suboptimal action, unless it is somewhere it can't maneuver, and even then, they get spells.

[t'zran]

whenever I want to give a creature 'swallow whole' I just look in the monster manuals and read the rules for creature of the same size you want to give the ability to, and just just cancel out all of the specific special effects of that creature whilst the player resides in it's stomach (like how with a remorhaz you take extra acid damage, or something like that).

then if you wanted to do this with a dragon you could make the player take say, if it was a white dragon, frost damage as he/she is digested by the creature.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I've done it; it works fine. I think there might be a feat in the Draconomicon that grants the ability, if you want to be strictly RAW.

[Karnith]

I think there might be a feat in the Draconomicon that grants the ability, if you want to be strictly RAW.
While it does not technically grant Swallow Whole, the feat Snatch and Swallow offers a functionally similar ability. It can be found in Chapter 2 of the Draconomicon, and it requires the feats Snatch and Improved Snatch to take.

[Krobar]

I tried that once with a Great Wyrm red dragon. The Bard he swallowed said, and I quote " this foolish dragon doesn't know who he's eating. I pull a Quall's tree token out and make a giant oak tree in his stomach."

That was violent and messy, and a fight ender.

[Dire Panda]

It's definitely not overpowered. I tend to give most of my dragons the Snatch and Swallow feat: dragons swallowing enemies has a decent pedigree in fantasy literature, any round a dragon is swallowing is a round it's not full-attack-TPK'ing, and it gives the party more tactically interesting options. (It also gives them an incentive to not allow the dragon to retreat!)

That being said, if you're running a dragon-heavy campaign, expect to see the players specialize in gastrointestinal warfare (lots of light weapons and grapplemancy). A paladin in one of my campaigns got so famous doing that sort of thing that a player drew her with "Caution: Harmful Or Fatal If Swallowed" written on her shield.

[Seharvepernfan]

I tried that once with a Great Wyrm red dragon. The Bard he swallowed said, and I quote " this foolish dragon doesn't know who he's eating. I pull a Quall's tree token out and make a giant oak tree in his stomach."

That was violent and messy, and a fight ender.

Please tell me that you made some sort of "going green" pun.

Also, is this possible via RAW, playground?

[Krobar]

Please tell me that you made some sort of "going green" pun.

Also, is this possible via RAW, playground?

Per the SRD, and this is all it says:



Feather Token

Each of these items is a small feather that has a power to suit a special need. The kinds of tokens are described below. Each token is usable once."




Tree

A token that causes a great oak to spring into being (5-foot diameter trunk, 60-foot height, 40-foot top diameter). This is an instantaneous effect."


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tree

I couldn't see at that moment how I could possibly rule that it DIDN'T work like that without DM fiat, and I don't like to overrule things that are cool. It's not the players' fault I forgot they had a few of those when I designed the dragon.

I didn't make any going green comments, though. I didn't think of that at the moment.

[Maquise]

How much more dangerous do you think it would be if they took the full strength of the dragon's breath weapon, no save?

[mattie_p]

Also, is this possible via RAW, playground?

Maybe, it depends.


If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it.

Can the individual speak while inside the dragon's stomach?


Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

It takes a standard action to do this. Was the item in their hand when they did so? Why are they carrying around their feather token in their hand?

Do they have a handy haversack? If they did, it is a move item to retrieve the token, and they can do it the same round.

If they don't, they might have to manipulate multiple items (move action each) to retrieve it. (Move action to drop backpack, move action to draw the token). This could be a full round or more, depending on what you rule.

Finally, it is up to you to determine if the tree would actually grow when there is no room. There is precedent for this:


Enlarge Person
If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size. What is the strength of a tree, and the strength DC to burst a dragon's stomach?


You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect.

Despite the fact that this is found in the rules for spell descriptions, the second clause is not restricted to spells. Is there a clear line of effect to the square you want the tree to grow?

[hamishspence]

OoTS has an opponent burst, when the spellcaster shapechanges inside them:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html
And the opponent is a dragon, which has swallowed the target whole, as well.

[mattie_p]

OoTS has an opponent burst, when the spellcaster shapechanges inside them:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html
And the opponent is a dragon, which has swallowed the target whole, as well.

Rule of cool and all that. Shapechange requires V, S, M components.


A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled.


If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Activate a Magic Item
You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require spell completion activation. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item.

Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Cast a Spell
You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

Damage Your Opponent
While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.

Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.

Draw a Light Weapon
You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check.

Escape from Grapple
You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).

Move
You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.

Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.

Retrieve a Spell Component
You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check.

As V didn't cast a stilled shapechange, it wouldn't technically be possible.

But that goes now to the swallowed character, by RAW they cannot retrieve the magic item, as it is not one of the limited number of permitted options to do while grappled.

[Krobar]

I viewed retrieving the token in the same light as producing a spell component from a pouch. If you can produce a feather to use in a spell, you should be able to produce a feather token too. That seemed the most reasonable way to view that. The token itself was in a belt of many pockets. Regarding speaking a command word? I figured (and still do) that you can speak as long as there is air in your lungs. The character in question may not have been able to take MORE breaths, being he was in a dragon's stomach, but the one breath he had? He used it wisely.

Plus it was cool.

[mattie_p]

Well, retrieving a spell component is a full round action while grappled. So he'd have to spend a full round being digested. Plus it is normally a free action. This would still be a move action under normal circumstances, you'd be well within rights to disallow it or require it to take at least as long as getting a spell component, if not longer.

Look, I'm not denying it is cool, and you went with it. But RAW-wise you had more than enough room to forbid it.

[killem2]

Finally, it is up to you to determine if the tree would actually grow when there is no room. There is precedent for this:



I'm with ya until that.

Precendent is not rule. It's a convientent out, for DMs who want to hide a "oh **** button" under the guise of an "rule".

[mattie_p]

I'm with ya until that.

Precendent is not rule. It's a convientent out, for DMs who want to hide a "oh **** button" under the guise of an "rule".

Well, ignore that part. I like my second post on the grappling rules a lot better, RAW-wise, for preventing this action.