Least optimized character?

[TheNoodleGod]

Try come up with the worst characters you can!

[mattie_p]

Wizard 20, using the spell selection found in one of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256232) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251763).

[ArcturusV]

3.0 style specialist Evoker where they thought Evocation was so powerful that it was worth giving up Conjuration, Abjuration, and Transmutation.

Level 20 monk without at least using all the PrCs that advance monk abilities AND give them bonuses?

Ninja base class going into Ninja Spy going into Shapechanger?

[Larkas]

Uhhhhh... Commoner 20? If you don't want to use NPC classes, then Wizard 20 with Eidetic Spellcaster and 8 Int.

[Phelix-Mu]

A mute armless bard? Oh wait, dancing.

Slightly less sarcastic: a cleric in the midst of a crisis of faith/conversion. While going through re-alignment/re-investment into another church or belief system, a cleric might be without spellcasting, at which point the character is dramatically less effective at everything (though still probably nothing to sniff at).

[Kazyan]

There's some "optimized for failure" stuff floating around, but it's obscure.

I think one of the tricks was having Con 4 and both the Quick trait and Frail flaw, for -5 HP per Hit Die to a minimum of 0 HP/level. Then take something with a d6 hit die at first level and d4s for the rest, so you have 1 HP at level 20. Now, use the BoVD scarification rules to permanently lose 10 HP to get +1 natural armor, so you have -9 as your maximum HP. You'll wake up, but you can't do anything useful without dying on the spot.

Now load yourself up with copies of Greater Bestow Curse from WBL, for 75% chance of not being able to do anything any turn, all ability scores except CON at 1, and a -8 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and skill checks.

Warmage? 1/Commoner 19.

[Venusaur]

Check this guy out. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7420740&postcount=19)

[Sgt. Cookie]

Truenamer 20?

[BowStreetRunner]

How about a 20th level Barbarian 1/Bard 1/Cleric 1/Druid 1/Fighter 1/Monk 1/Paladin 1/Ranger 1/Rogue 1/Sorcerers 1/Wizard 1/Ninja 1/Scout 1/Spellthief 1/Hexblade 1/Samurai 1/Swashbuckler 1/Warlock 1/Warmage 1/Favored Soul 1/Spirit Shaman 1?

[Larkas]

Truenamer 20?

Eh, they've got Gate.

[Sgt. Cookie]

So does Healer. And Healer is awful.

[Larkas]

So does Healer. And Healer is awful.

I'm not arguing that it is easy to get to Truenamer 20 (or Healer 20, for that matter), or that it is in any way a well optimized build, I'm just saying that they are not the least optimized character you could make. Not by a long shot.

[Rubik]

I'm not arguing that it is easy to get to Truenamer 20 (or Healer 20, for that matter), or that it is in any way a well optimized build, I'm just saying that they are not the least optimized character you could make. Not by a long shot.All mental scores at 3 and all skill ranks in Speak Language.

[Larkas]

All mental scores at 3 and all skill ranks in Speak Language.

NOW we're talking! :smallbiggrin:

[Kazyan]

You've still got 3/4 BAB on the Truenamer and a pet Unicorn + various (Su) abilities for the Healer. We can do better.

[Rubik]

NOW we're talking! :smallbiggrin:And all feats in Skill Focus: Perform. All WBL tied up in trying to build a stronghold via the rules in the Stronghold Builder's Guide.

[edit]
You've still got 3/4 BAB on the Truenamer and a pet Unicorn + various (Su) abilities for the Healer. We can do better.Okay, then. Start out as a human paragon and use any and all early entry PrC tricks as quickly as you can, to get into as many different PrCs as you can, all the way up to level 20. Then purchase a Contingent Reincarnate. Die. Come back as anything but human. Then Psychic Reformation out all the feats and skills used to enter your prestige classes.

Now you no longer qualify for any class you have.

[Larkas]

You've still got 3/4 BAB on the Truenamer and a pet Unicorn + various (Su) abilities for the Healer. We can do better.

Hmmmm, I guess so...


All mental scores at 3 and all skill ranks in Speak Language.

Put this on a Monk chassis? Or Wizard, for that matter. Scratch that. Put it on a Sorcerer chassis.

[Preaplanes]

Vampire Half-Dragon CW Samurai Kobold?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Commoner with the Corpse flaw? :smalltongue:

[Karnith]

And all feats in Skill Focus: Perform.
I think that at least one Skill Focus (Speak Language) would suit this master of languages more.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Truenamer 20?

Truenamer 19/Monk 1

Every feat is Skill Focus: Speak Language

Actually, you could probably lose the level of Monk, and a lot more levels of Truenamer with crappy, High LA templates.

Edit: And be a Buomman, and therefore unable to speak.

[Kazyan]

And all feats in Skill Focus: Perform. All WBL tied up in trying to build a stronghold via the rules in the Stronghold Builder's Guide.

Build your own death chamber? I like it.

Alright. So far, we've got a Warmage 1/Commoner 19 with tons of curses, Speak Language everywhere, SF(Perform), and the rest of the money making his own doom fortress, with the doom pointing backwards.

Let's see if we can get rid of +9 BAB and +6/+6/+8 saves next. Incarnate Construct? Pile up LA +21 that ends in Construct type and slap Incarnate Contruct on that to clear out everything, leaving only Commoner 1.

[Soranar]

how about a venerable elf commoner

you get -6 STR, -4 DEX, -8 CON +3 INT/WIS/CHA

8 Con to start with, -8= 0 but , since there's a minimum stat you get 1 (unless it's 3, not sure)

With maximum hitpoints at first level you get d4 hitpoints -4, for a whooping 0 hitpoints. Basically you're always 1 housecat away from death. Doesn't matter how high your level is, you're just bed ridden old man.

[nedz]

Pun Pun who lowers all of his stats to 1
Any other character who has been manipulated thus
Any character who spends all of their WBL on Deck's of Many things — and then uses them

[Rubik]

Any character who spends all of their WBL on Deck's of Many things — and then uses them
Combine with any number of divinations, rerolls, and other tricks to get all the good cards without getting any bad ones.

That, or draw ALL the cards and use the undo misfortune one to rid yourself of all the cards you don't want.

Seems good to me.

Also, you can't do that. It doesn't have a listed price (which means it should be in a spell component pouch, since there are spells with artifacts as material components).

[Phelix-Mu]

Also, you can't do that. It doesn't have a listed price (which means it should be in a spell component pouch, since there are spells with artifacts as material components).

Rather off-topic, but I find this use of spell component pouch to be weird RAW. Without price means not available for purchase, not without value. Artifacts have value (since you can probably sell one to a specific buyer, and an Appraise check won't result in a value of nil), but they have no price because no one is selling them by default. Any DM that isn't aware of a distinction between "price" and "value" is not interpreting the rules in a realistic manner.

Just checked, Appraise does refer to "value," but never mentions "price" (so the concept of value exists in RAW). Allowing a PC to draw items that don't have price but do have value from the spell component pouch seems extremely unwise.

EDIT: And I'm not looking to pick a fight, just my two cents. Many people have mentioned this use of the spell component pouch, and it always bugs me.

[nedz]

Also, you can't do that. It doesn't have a listed price (which means it should be in a spell component pouch, since there are spells with artefacts as material components).

Or do it indirectly.

Write owning one into your back story
Spend WBL on divinations etc. to find one


Or do Artefacts only exist by DM fiat ?
(This argument seems to be at odds with the normal conventions of CharOp)

[Kazyan]

(This argument seems to be at odds with the normal conventions of CharOp)

This would be TO, not PO, actually.

[Flickerdart]

Nup-Nup the kobold with 0 max HP is the weakest possible character.

[UnjustCustos]

Psionic Sandwich.

[Guizonde]

can i try? :elan:

uh, 14 point buy level 1 halfling fallen paladin? logically, no stat is higher than 3 if divided roughly equally.

or half-orc pally with charisma dumped, wisdom dumped, and no mount? and no LG too.

funny, you ask me to build a character, it's often as awfully optimized as what's posted here. yet i do it on purpose, and blank. :smallconfused:

[nedz]

This would be TO, not PO, actually.

Well I typed TO at first, and then changed my mind because acquisition of all items is assumed to be open in CharOp. In a real game they are all subject to Rule 0, but that is of no use in general discussions. Artefacts fall foul of this principle, because they are priceless: YMMV.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well I typed TO at first, and then changed my mind because acquisition of all items is assumed to be open in CharOp. In a real game they are all subject to Rule 0, but that is of no use in general discussions. Artefacts fall foul of this principle, because they are priceless: YMMV.

Since it's useful for another thread I am working on, is it ever specifically said that artifacts are priceless? Or "without cost?" As I've tried to imply/base in RAW, artifacts should not be without value (at least not by an English definition of value, and the game gives us precious little else to go on). I looked in DMG (not terribly thoroughly) and came up empty.

[Red Rubber Band]

Psionic Sandwich.

:smallconfused:

As a psionic sandwich you're physically weak, yes. But no one suspects the sandwich is the one "casting the spells" or whatever it is that psionicists (I'll just make up my own words) do :smalltongue:

[NM020110]

Vow of Poverty wizard that has violated their vow by owning a spellbook, and has given said spell book away in an attempt to redeem themselves.

Venerable grey elf with only one point of strength and constitution, four points of dexterity, and everything else in intelligence, of course. All skills are in craft(), which can't be used due to seeking to avoid violation of the Vow. All feats are further exalted feats for other vows, which have been broken due to accidents, lack of attention, or fits of rage over accidentally breaking a vow.

[Rubik]

People, people. We're going about this all wrong. This is about making the LEAST optimized character possible. We've all been trying to optimize for negativity. That's the exact opposite of what we're supposed to do.

Here's what we do.

Roll a die for what race we take.
Roll a die for what class we take each level.
Roll a die for what feats to take.
Roll a die for which skills to put points in, and another for how many skill points.
Roll a die for what spells/powers/whatnot to take (if appropriate).

Done!

[Diovid]

Venerable Kobold Kobold Paragon 3 / CW Samurai 4 / Uncanny Trickster* 3 / Legacy Champion* 10
*Advancing Kobold Paragon

[MukkTB]

I think we want potential optimization here. Theoretical optimization leads to the psionic sandwich or some dude who killed himself through the careful selection of class features.

My PO suggestion is this: A fighter with well rounded stats including intelligence and charisma, 'cause he's a knight!' Putting enough into his charisma to be a gallant lad and enough into int to avoid being a boor has left his strength score only moderately above average. He wears heavy armor, and fights with sword and board. He rides a white stallion with maybe 16 HP to its name. This is despite a campaign with an even distribution of dungeons, mountains, swamps, and dark forests to complement the open plains where he might be useful. Feat selection is mounted combat, dodge, weapon focus, ect. Knowledge Nobility features in his skill-pool. He is brave of heart, and rides forth to kill evil wizards, slay dragons, and rescue princesses.

Someone might legitimately try to do this thing.

[Killer Angel]

I would avoid silly lev. 20 builds, with all skill points in speak languages and so on... Those characters couldn't survive the first 19 levels.


I think we want potential optimization here. Theoretical optimization leads to the psionic sandwich or some dude who killed himself through the careful selection of class features.

My PO suggestion is this: A fighter with well rounded stats including intelligence and charisma, 'cause he's a knight!' Putting enough into his charisma to be a gallant lad and enough into int to avoid being a boor has left his strength score only moderately above average. He wears heavy armor, and fights with sword and board. He rides a white stallion with maybe 16 HP to its name. This is despite a campaign with an even distribution of dungeons, mountains, swamps, and dark forests to complement the open plains where he might be useful. Feat selection is mounted combat, dodge, weapon focus, ect. Knowledge Nobility features in his skill-pool. He is brave of heart, and rides forth to kill evil wizards, slay dragons, and rescue princesses.

Someone might legitimately try to do this thing.

That's the spirit!
I'm sure we can work out something good awful, using a dwarven defender...

[nedz]

Roll 3d6 in-order for stats, play a Monk.

[Malroth]

last time i asked a character to do that i watched him roll 16+ for Dex, Con,Wis and Int.

[Wings of Peace]

There is no black text here because the hypothetical character has nothing filled in on his sheet. He is so sub-optimal that his very existence has no expression within the game system.

[Rubik]

This is despite a campaign with an even distribution of dungeons, mountains, swamps, and dark forests to complement the open plains where he might be useful. Feat selection is mounted combat, dodge, weapon focus, ect.What does ectoplasm have to do with anything?

[nedz]

last time i asked a character to do that i watched him roll 16+ for Dex, Con,Wis and Int.

The odds of rolling 16+ on 3d6 are 6:216 or 1:36.
The odds of rolling four such stats are 1:364 or 1:1,679,616
So, yeah, it can happen.

[Person_Man]

So does Healer. And Healer is awful.

Minor quibble:

The Healer gets a Celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm) (Darkvision, Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance) Unicorn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/unicorn.htm) (magic circle against evil, spell-like abilities, immunity to poison, charm, and compulsion, low-light vision, scent, wild empathy) with the added abilities of an Empathic Link, Improved Evasion, Shared Saving Throws, and Shared Spells at level 8. At higher levels it gains hit dice and abilities similar to those gained by Animal Companions, or you can trade it in for a Celestial Lammasu, Gynosphinx, Water Naga, Androsphinx, or Couatl, each of which offers it's own spells and/or abilities.

Thus the Healer can just ride around on the Celestial Companion casting Cure and/or negative condition removal spells (which are Shared) as needed, which makes the Healer 8+/Celestial Companion combo into a Tier 3-ish tank with some decent healing and some useful side abilities/Skills.


The Healer itself (along with the Marshal, Truenamer and Monk) itself is still one of the most poorly designed classes in the game, and sucks terribly prior to level 8. But it's not the least optimized class out there.

[Venger]

3.0 style specialist Evoker where they thought Evocation was so powerful that it was worth giving up Conjuration, Abjuration, and Transmutation.

Level 20 monk without at least using all the PrCs that advance monk abilities AND give them bonuses?

Ninja base class going into Ninja Spy going into Shapechanger?

explains how varsuvius picked those schools as her banned ones.

I actually think ninja spy is a pretty awesome class, and shapeshifter's not bad either. there's certainly worse features than wild shape. plus it lets you into momf if you want

hilariously enough though, that build actually does not work.

if you wanted to go pure ninja because you hate yourself, you don't get evasion till 12. this means that even if you wait till then to go into ninja spy, since you don't nab thousand faces till 7, you'll be ninja12/ninja spy 7/shapeshifter 1

not a terrible build, but you'd likely be better off staying in ninja spy for poison immunity and more SA.


:smallconfused:

As a psionic sandwich you're physically weak, yes. But no one suspects the sandwich is the one "casting the spells" or whatever it is that psionicists (I'll just make up my own words) do :smalltongue:

people who have psionic powers are called "manifesters" and they are said to manifest powers.

spellcasters cast spells
manifesters manifest powers
martial adepts initiate maneuvers
meldshapers shape soulmelds
binders bind vestiges
shadowcasters discover mysteries
warlocks invoke invocations

and truenamers speak utterances

[Snowbluff]

Venerable Kobold Kobold Paragon 3 / CW Samurai 4 / Uncanny Trickster* 3 / Legacy Champion* 10
*Advancing Kobold ParagonI would play this, actually. I am a silly... pejorative... like that.


Nup-Nup the kobold with 0 max HP is the weakest possible character.

Yeah, wasn't this something we already did? We took everything to lower his hp at each level.

[mattie_p]

Except the minimum hp will always equal hit dice.


You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to:

Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level).

[Flickerdart]

Except the minimum hp will always equal hit dice.
Frail, bro.


Yeah, wasn't this something we already did? We took everything to lower his hp at each level.
It was BG or Minmax or the WotC boards, I think; can't find the build now at any rate. The basics of it were IIRC a point-buy Kobold with the flaws Frail and Pathetic Constitution, dropping his CON score to 4 and then taking Wizard levels with an Int of 8. As a result, he gains no hit points from HD (even a maxed HD grants him 4-3 = 1, -1 for Frail = 0). Then he takes the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, reducing his maximum HP to -3. But this isn't the crappiest we can go. The kobold takes Diehard, so he is conscious and can act. He used his Draconic Rite to take Blade of Blood, and wields a Vicious dagger. When he hits an enemy with it, he takes an average of 8.5 damage (1d6 from Vicious, 5 from Blade of Blood) and is killed instantly.

Alternatively, the kobold is a 1st level Paladin without the Rite of Passage, and uses a scroll of Divine Sacrifice to deal himself 10 points of damage and die without needing to hit. This is a faster way to reach ultimate suck, because you don't need expensive items.

[Raimun]

It was BG or Minmax or the WotC boards, I think; can't find the build now at any rate. The basics of it were IIRC a point-buy Kobold with the flaws Frail and Pathetic Constitution, dropping his CON score to 4 and then taking Wizard levels with an Int of 8. As a result, he gains no hit points from HD (even a maxed HD grants him 4-3 = 1, -1 for Frail = 0). Then he takes the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, reducing his maximum HP to -3. But this isn't the crappiest we can go. The kobold takes Diehard, so he is conscious and can act. He used his Draconic Rite to take Blade of Blood, and wields a Vicious dagger. When he hits an enemy with it, he takes an average of 8.5 damage (1d6 from Vicious, 5 from Blade of Blood) and is killed instantly.


I was going to suggest a Wizard (any kind, any level) with starting Intelligence of 3 but that kobold is even worse.

Still, a Wizard who rolled a 3 and put it to his Intelligence would need at least +6 Headband of Intelligence and one of those tomes that raise your Int to cast Cantrips.

Raising Int every four levels would help but not very much. He'd still need very powerful magic or items (Headband, Tomes, Wish) to cast any spells at all. He might be able to cast Cantrips at level 10... ish. Perhaps even 1st level spells, if he's lucky.

Nine spell levels at level 17 would be possible but only if he had something like +6 Headband of Int, read five tomes of Int and someone else cast a Wish at him once. Unless you start at level 17, it's very likely you can't get all of that stuff. Even if you could, that would be a lot of resources to achieve a basic level competence.

Just imagine starting a long campaign as a level 1 Wizard with Int of 3, as a result of a drunken bet. And you'd lose the bet if you took anything but Wizard levels or changed characters.

[Invader]

There's some "optimized for failure" stuff floating around, but it's obscure.

I think one of the tricks was having Con 4 and both the Quick trait and Frail flaw, for -5 HP per Hit Die to a minimum of 0 HP/level. Then take something with a d6 hit die at first level and d4s for the rest, so you have 1 HP at level 20. Now, use the BoVD scarification rules to permanently lose 10 HP to get +1 natural armor, so you have -9 as your maximum HP. You'll wake up, but you can't do anything useful without dying on the spot.

Now load yourself up with copies of Greater Bestow Curse from WBL, for 75% chance of not being able to do anything any turn, all I ability scores except CON at 1, and a -8 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and skill checks.

Warmage? 1/Commoner 19.

Edit*
Never mind :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

Just imagine starting a long campaign as a level 1 Wizard with Int of 3, as a result of a drunken bet. And you'd lose the bet if you took anything but Wizard levels or changed characters.
Any fool can roll Int 3. Here in the Playground, we make sure that you can get Int 3 through point buy.

Which reminds me of a templated monster someone came up with (Ghost Brute Shrieker?) that has three nonabilities, a Charisma score of 1, and no means of attacking.

[Raimun]

There's some "optimized for failure" stuff floating around, but it's obscure.

I think one of the tricks was having Con 4 and both the Quick trait and Frail flaw, for -5 HP per Hit Die to a minimum of 0 HP/level. Then take something with a d6 hit die at first level and d4s for the rest, so you have 1 HP at level 20. Now, use the BoVD scarification rules to permanently lose 10 HP to get +1 natural armor, so you have -9 as your maximum HP. You'll wake up, but you can't do anything useful without dying on the spot.

Now load yourself up with copies of Greater Bestow Curse from WBL, for 75% chance of not being able to do anything any turn, all ability scores except CON at 1, and a -8 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and skill checks.

Warmage? 1/Commoner 19.

Hmm... if you permanently increased that character's Size to Large (or bigger), would it be possible that the character's abysmal Strength couldn't support its own weight? Or at the very least give permanent Heavy Load?

Enlarge person gives only +2 to Str but multiplies the weight by 8. :smalltongue:

Edit: I don't know the rules for the this kind of stuff. Like most people, I only build competent characters.

[LTwerewolf]

Truenamer 20, no ranks in truespeak, with all their pointbuy going into wisdom.

[mattie_p]

Frail, bro.

Agreed.


Nup-Nup the kobold with 0 max HP is the weakest possible character.


Except the minimum hp will always equal hit dice.

But 0 hp is not gonna happen - not at level 1 or 20. So, sorry for bursting your bubble in that respect. Still not a bad idea.

[Flickerdart]

Agreed.
But 0 hp is not gonna happen - not at level 1 or 20. So, sorry for bursting your bubble in that respect. Still not a bad idea.

Frail
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)You are thin and weak of frame.
Effect
Subtract 1 from the number of hit points you gain at each level. This flaw can reduce the number of hit points you gain to 0 (but not below).
Special
You must have a Constitution of 4 or higher to take this flaw.

[TuggyNE]

Any fool can roll Int 3. Here in the Playground, we make sure that you can get Int 3 through point buy.

Which reminds me of a templated monster someone came up with (Ghost Brute Shrieker?) that has three nonabilities, a Charisma score of 1, and no means of attacking.

What was the CR on that thing? I seem to remember jokes about them having been hunted into extinction by XP-crazy adventurers.

[Sith_Happens]

People, people. We're going about this all wrong. This is about making the LEAST optimized character possible. We've all been trying to optimize for negativity. That's the exact opposite of what we're supposed to do.

Here's what we do.

Roll a die for what race we take.
Roll a die for what class we take each level.
Roll a die for what feats to take.
Roll a die for which skills to put points in, and another for how many skill points.
Roll a die for what spells/powers/whatnot to take (if appropriate).

Done!

Darn you, now there's a certain "RPG" "system" that I'm desperately trying to refrain from making a joke about.:smalleek:

[Karnith]

What was the CR on that thing? I seem to remember jokes about them having been hunted into extinction by XP-crazy adventurers.
A ghost brute shrieker would be CR 3, making all of those level 1 wizards/sorcerers who know magic missile very eager to encounter one. It would have 4 nonabilities, its only stats being Wisdom 2 and Charisma 1.

Though to be fair, a CR 1 regular shrieker doesn't have a way to kill anything either.

[mattie_p]

Frail
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)You are thin and weak of frame.
Effect
Subtract 1 from the number of hit points you gain at each level. This flaw can reduce the number of hit points you gain to 0 (but not below).
Special
You must have a Constitution of 4 or higher to take this flaw.

Oooooooookay, guess I earned that. But then this thing won't be level 20, unconscious its whole life - never earns XP.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

...a corpse.

[Greenish]

Hmm... if you permanently increased that character's Size to Large (or bigger), would it be possible that the character's abysmal Strength couldn't support its own weight? Or at the very least give permanent Heavy Load?

Enlarge person gives only +2 to Str but multiplies the weight by 8. :smalltongue:For the good or bad, your own weight doesn't count against your encumbrance.

[Raimun]

For the good or bad, your own weight doesn't count against your encumbrance.

Oh yeah, that's right.

Yet, I have hard time imagining that a giant, who would lose in an arm wrestling contest to an average halfling, could support his own weight.

[RFLS]

Nine spell levels at level 17 would be possible but only if he had something like +6 Headband of Int, read five tomes of Int and someone else cast a Wish at him once. Unless you start at level 17, it's very likely you can't get all of that stuff. Even if you could, that would be a lot of resources to achieve a basic level competence.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the Tome bonuses and the Wish bonus don't stack. I've always been fuzzy on this and haven't had the time/motivation to check, though.


Hmm... if you permanently increased that character's Size to Large (or bigger), would it be possible that the character's abysmal Strength couldn't support its own weight? Or at the very least give permanent Heavy Load?

Enlarge person gives only +2 to Str but multiplies the weight by 8. :smalltongue:

Edit: I don't know the rules for the this kind of stuff. Like most people, I only build competent characters.

No. RAW says that a creature is always able to support its own weight.

EDIT: Swordsage'd

[Karnith]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the Tome bonuses and the Wish bonus don't stack. I've always been fuzzy on this and haven't had the time/motivation to check, though.
Wish and the Tomes both give inherent bonuses to an ability score, and hence will not stack.

[AmberVael]

I've seen some things that are probably worse, but it comes to mind that you could make a spectacularly bad character by simply taking one level in something awful, then getting tons and tons of LA, and then finishing it off by adding on Dragonborn to lose just about everything you gained, while maintaining the LA.

For extra anti-optimization, choose templates and LA that do not increase ability scores or movement speeds.

If you do it right, you can make an ECL 20 character with only 1 HD and nothing to show for it.

[Phelix-Mu]

I've seen some things that are probably worse, but it comes to mind that you could make a spectacularly bad character by simply taking one level in something awful, then getting tons and tons of LA, and then finishing it off by adding on Dragonborn to lose just about everything you gained, while maintaining the LA.

For extra anti-optimization, choose templates and LA that do not increase ability scores or movement speeds.

If you do it right, you can make an ECL 20 character with only 1 HD and nothing to show for it.

What shall we call it? Failborn of Bahamut?....ooh, actually, the jokes get pretty sketchy down that direction.:smalleek:

[Greenish]

Yet, I have hard time imagining that a giant, who would lose in an arm wrestling contest to an average halfling, could support his own weight.I'm pretty sure the size modifiers apply for arm wrestling. That's +4 advantage per size difference.

[Raimun]

Any fool can roll Int 3. Here in the Playground, we make sure that you can get Int 3 through point buy.


If it's Point Buy (it hardly ever is) you could just take a race and/or template with a massive Intelligence penalty. Just buy an Int of 9 and slap on something with -6 to Int. Now you also have most likely LA.


I'm not 100% sure, but I think the Tome bonuses and the Wish bonus don't stack. I've always been fuzzy on this and haven't had the time/motivation to check, though.


Yes, they're actually both Inherent bonuses and they don't stack. Nine spell levels would be possible at level 20 and only after putting 5 stat increaces to Int, wearing the +6 Headband and gaining +5 Inherent bonus from a single source: either +5 Tome of Clear Thoughts or 5 castings of Wish in 5 turns.

I didn't remember this at first. There haven't been that many (read:any) games where Inherent bonuses have been abundant.

[Morphie]

I've played a PC in the Return of the Spider Queen, back in 3e, that was awful. It was a Rogue 3/ Wizard 6/ Acolyte of the Skin 1. Can't remember all of the feats but I know I spent one on "Exotic Weapon Prof (Kukri)", just for style, even though I almost never got to use it. I was terrible at keeping up with the spells as it was the first spellcaster I'd ever played.

He survived one entire session.

But I don't blame it on the PC, "I" was the newbie. You can play an unoptimized character without major problems, but if you're an unoptimized player without a concept for your PC, you're in serious trouble, no matter how optimized your character is.

[nedz]

Be a low Strength Halfling or Gnome melee character
Take the Slow Flaw or Trait (Same difference)
Insist on carrying too much stuff
Your movement speed is now 5'

[Flickerdart]

If it's Point Buy (it hardly ever is) you could just take a race and/or template with a massive Intelligence penalty. Just buy an Int of 9 and slap on something with -6 to Int. Now you also have most likely LA.

If you can't be the least optimized from 1 to 20, you're barely least optimized at all.

[Zombulian]

Minor quibble:

The Healer gets a Celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm) (Darkvision, Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance) Unicorn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/unicorn.htm) (magic circle against evil, spell-like abilities, immunity to poison, charm, and compulsion, low-light vision, scent, wild empathy) with the added abilities of an Empathic Link, Improved Evasion, Shared Saving Throws, and Shared Spells at level 8. At higher levels it gains hit dice and abilities similar to those gained by Animal Companions, or you can trade it in for a Celestial Lammasu, Gynosphinx, Water Naga, Androsphinx, or Couatl, each of which offers it's own spells and/or abilities.

Thus the Healer can just ride around on the Celestial Companion casting Cure and/or negative condition removal spells (which are Shared) as needed, which makes the Healer 8+/Celestial Companion combo into a Tier 3-ish tank with some decent healing and some useful side abilities/Skills.


The Healer itself (along with the Marshal, Truenamer and Monk) itself is still one of the most poorly designed classes in the game, and sucks terribly prior to level 8. But it's not the least optimized class out there.

Hey whoa there, the Healer has some of the best healing in the game pre-lvl 7. They beat out both the Cleric and the Druid. Then there's one dead level where you are the suck, then you get a Unicorn.
Don't be hatin on my Healer.

Also really no one's mentioned the suicidal Knight? The guy who was so eager to make Test of Mettle work that he put an 18 in Cha but an 8 in Con?

[MukkTB]

I'm pretty sure the fighter I listed is just about as low as you can go for potential optimization. Blaster Wizard, Healbot Cleric, and Generic Rogue all have some utility to fall back on out of combat. The only way to go lower than the fighter in PO accurate environment is the monk. Welcome to Monkday.

Kung Fu Fighter has stuck his point buy into dexterity and wisdom. Con gets a tiny bit of love and strength isn't given very much at all. After all in the moves Jackie Chan isn't doing feats of strength, he's dodging every attack meant for him and striking quickly. To back this up, weapon finesse has been selected. Kung Fu Fighter has a slightly better skill set than the fighter. Most of the points have found their way into acrobatics 'so he can do cool leaps and things.' A few points have found their way into craft alchemy 'so he can make bandages and tea!.' And after all of this Kung Fu Fighter is like a peasant on steroids. He has a handful of skills that will help him make his way in the world. He's going to be one of the toughest unarmored people to hit. His speed will keep him safer than the slowpokes around him. He's set for life, a few herbal remedies here and there for coin. When the dragon comes he can leap over the fence, hoof it across the field and run away while slower peasants are being munched.

Wait. He thinks he's a fighter. When the dragon comes he punches it for 1 dice of damage a couple times. He's able to dodge a few attacks until the dragon connects and his middling constitution body on a D8 frame crumples over.

[russdm]

I was going to suggest a Wizard (any kind, any level) with starting Intelligence of 3 but that kobold is even worse

But this is completely doable by having a high charisma and maxed out use magic device. You don't need your int if your UMD modifier is high enough. In that fashion, you wouldn't be least optimized at all.

[Rubik]

Oh yeah, that's right.

Yet, I have hard time imagining that a giant, who would lose in an arm wrestling contest to an average halfling, could support his own weight.Note that you can't wear any clothing whatsoever. I hope you have a high Charisma score.


Yes, they're actually both Inherent bonuses and they don't stack. Nine spell levels would be possible at level 20 and only after putting 5 stat increaces to Int, wearing the +6 Headband and gaining +5 Inherent bonus from a single source: either +5 Tome of Clear Thoughts or 5 castings of Wish in 5 turns.

I didn't remember this at first. There haven't been that many (read:any) games where Inherent bonuses have been abundant.Buy a scroll of Polymorph Any Object. Nab a nice high Int until you're dispelled.

[Flickerdart]

Note that you can't wear any clothing whatsoever. I hope you have a high Charisma score.

Buy a scroll of Polymorph Any Object. Nab a nice high Int until you're dispelled.

Isn't your first outfit not encumbering, precisely to avoid people ditching pants to pick up another sword?

[Rubik]

Isn't your first outfit not encumbering, precisely to avoid people ditching pants to pick up another sword?Who cares! Party naked!

And by "party" I mean "adventuring party!!!"

[ericgrau]

One where it's still plausible that he got to level 20? Vow of poverty sorcerer who disjunctioned an artifact and lost all his spellcasting. Now he has... charisma.

Work in a part of his build that depends on spellcasting to survive and I think we're in business.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Something someone might actually play is a Risen Martyr 1 XP away from his last level. If he does anything of import, the character goes poof.

[Carth]

A venerable wood elf wizard 20 would have an int of 9 and thus be incapable of casting spells, and have a con of 1.

[Waspinator]

What if someone wants to be a Transformer and plays a Mithril Body Warforged Druid? Congrats, your very body rejects your druid powers!