Need Advice: Master of Many Forms vs. Frenzied Berzerker

[Turk Mannion]

Scenario: One-on-on Combat/Settling a Score

Setting: Greyhawk, north of Tenh, open field, unknown terrain, but likely not difficult. Partially snowy/tundra area

Target: Dwarven warrior; Unkown for sure, but based on DM comments, some mix of Barbarian/Warblade/Frenzied Berserker. Two weapon fighting, so likely a high dex and con, but very low wisdom and intelligence/charisma.

Me: 9th level human. Druid 7/Master of Many Forms 2; Favorite combat shape is a Cave Troll, which is what I will do here, unless there is compelling reason to do otherwise. Yes, I know the dwarf gets bonuses, but the cave troll is part of the story. Extraordinary Wild Shape will be active, so fast healing 8 is running. AC is 31. HP is 80. CL 7

Rules: Likely self-buffs only for honor reasons; Unknown how long before the combat we will be able to prepare, but at least a few rounds.
For RP reasons, turning into a bird and simply raining fire down on him is not an option. Yes, I could defeat him, but it does not solve the reason for the duel. This has to be physical combat, although spells are permitted (control/buff/healing)

So, I am looking for ideas on tactics and spells, both before the actual combat and during. I will likely lose initiative, so I need to be able to absorb an alpha-strike.

All 3.5 books are permitted, although due to the setting, the “climate” books, aside from Frostburn, are not very viable. Sandstorm is definitely out. No evil spells.

Spells I am considering:
• Barkskin (pre combat)
• Entangle
• Bear’s Endurance (pre combat)
• Alter Fortune (may use this on initiative roll if needed)
• Greater Magic Fang (pre combat)
• Freeze Armor
• Bite of the wererat/wolf/boar

Thought about grappling him and simply waiting until his rage ran out, but we would be close to evenly matched on grapple scores. Entangling him and waiting it out is possible, but feels like a bit of a cop out (like the bird wild shape). His fort save is going to be monstrous, and his reflex will be decent, so spells would likely need to focus on his will save. Anything that would drop his wisdom/intelligence/charisma would likely do the trick also.

I know that my spells are what is going to give me an edge. But the DM is very strategically and tactically sound so I need every advantage I can get.

So, what are your thoughts?

[Barkos]

Could always wildshape? What about mindrot?

[Jeff the Green]

Marbles. Frenzied berserkers automatically fail Balance checks in a frenzy.

[kardar233]

I'd advise using a different kind of troll than a Cave Troll, as the Cave Troll doesn't get Regeneration, which you can use to sink his first alpha strike.

Unless he's higher level than you, he shouldn't have Deathless Frenzy, so you can kill him normally. Otherwise, you'll need to see if you can nab a scroll or wand of Calm Emotions. Beat him into negatives and then cast it on him to negate his Deathless Frenzy.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Impeding Stones (Cityscape) -2 penalty to attacks, difficult terrain costs double movement, and creatures are considered flat-footed while balancing.

Blinding Spittle (SC). Ranged touch attack (with a -4 penalty), target is blinded, *no save*.

Drifts of the Shalm (PHBII) & Blood Snow (Frostburn) Cold damage & difficult terrain + con drain & nausea if he fails a fort save. Suboptimal because his fort save will be high but if he fails you've basically won.

Sleet Storm (Core) blocks sight, needs DC10 balance check to move.

[JeminiZero]

I'd advise using a different kind of troll than a Cave Troll, as the Cave Troll doesn't get Regeneration, which you can use to sink his first alpha strike.

I am wondering whether Beastland Ferocity [SpC] will work Regeneration.

Beastland Ferocity is level 1, and lasts minutes per level, so one casting should be enough to last the whole fight. But if you suspect otherwise, you can bring multiple castings, or else extend it.

Regeneration converts most damage to non-lethal. Beastland Ferocity lets you keep fighting while in negative HP. Arguably, it should let you keep fighting even if you've taken non-lethal damage in excess of HP, no matter how much non-lethal you have taken.

Add on Energy Resistance to whatever energy your Regeneration is vulnerable to for maximal protection (usually acid and fire).

Drifts of Shalm and Bloodsnow has already been mentioned.

Look up Kuo-Toa Skin in stormwrack. Gives you escape bonus for getting out of Grapple.

Freedom of Movement lasts minutes/level and takes Grappling out of the equation altogether. Heart of Water can also help, but is much shorter FoM, lasting only rounds/level.

[sleepyphoenixx]

some more ideas:

Greater Luminous Armor (BoED) +8 AC, -4 to hit in melee

Heart of Earth (CM) swift action Stoneskin

Spiritjaws (SpC) 2d6 force damage and a free grapple attempt every round, uses your BAB + WIS mod

Arctic Haze (Frost) & Faerie Fire (Core) Concealing fog + frost damage

Primal Instinct (DrM) +5 Initiative

Also, using Enhance Wildshape you can shift into the Ironthorn (Sandstorm)
+15 Nat AC, 15ft reach, DC23 Fort Paralysis Poison on grapple

[Need_A_Life]

AFB, but...
Inflict conditions on him that force him to either suffer or spend time using and then recovering IHS, such as blinding him (Blinding Spittle or Blindness/Deafness), Stinking Cloud, Cloudkill, or sending him running for the hills (any effect that inflicts the Frightened or Panicked conditions).

As a Druid you're simply a spellcaster, who happens to be great in melee. Rob him of his actions, drain his ability scores, blind him, grease him if he frenzies, entangle him and when he's beaten and battered, having run out of frenzy/rage and has to make do with manoeuvres mimicking your lower-level spells you then move in for the kill.

The worst possible thing you can do is approaching this fight like one melee combatant against another; that introduces the concept of fair-play to the thing and in a fair fight you'll be playing with a handicap.

[Flickerdart]

The dwarf gains no bonuses against a MoMF shaped like a troll, because Wild Shape is based on Alternate Form, which does not change your type.

[Turk Mannion]

Thanks to everyone for the replies, there are some great ideas here.

I agree that the key will be to keep him off-guard with conditions that he either has to resolve or deal with.

Part of my strategy will be dependent on how long I have to buff before combat. There are several great spells that I could cast before the action starts, but it may be a spur of the moment combat, depending on the story and how it evolves.

[Green Leviathan]

I'm not all that familiar with MoMF, but don't they get get assume (ex) abilites later then 2nd lvl?

[Venger]

I'm not all that familiar with MoMF, but don't they get get assume (ex) abilites later then 2nd lvl?

you are correct, but that's what the spell "enhance wild shape" is for. since OP can cast 4th lvl druid spells, he can just cast it in the morning when he wild shapes (since it's got a 1 minute casting time) and then just have it up all day, which is how he can attain the ex abilities of his wild shapes.

spike growth is an important BFC spell that will really destroy his ability to charge you, and at 7th level, you get 7 20 foot squares, so you can ring yourself, him, or both (depending on your relative positions) with the spikes if you feel so inclined since I assume like most frenzied berserkers, he has no ability to fly.

boreal wind should keep him at a distance, and even if he's a dwarf, he should still have trouble making that save since he's only medium. that'll let you blast the hell out of him without even getting near him (680feet) but I assume that due to the rules of sportsmanship, as you've mentioned earlier, that you won't be interested in this

as mentioned by others, in straight up melee, you'll probably lose fast since while regen helps you against normal attacks that are smaller and broken up over a few rounds, FBs excel at dealing enormous damage in one round, which your regen won't be able to help with.

since war troll is unfortunately off the table for a few more levels, vanilla troll, tiger, dire lion, or ankylosaurus are all good alternative choices if you don't stick with cave troll.

[Green Leviathan]

Wow, i can't believe i've never seen that spell before. It would probably be banned in the groups i play with. who needs to play a troll with a HD and LA when you can just be a lvl 7 druid :smallannoyed:

[awa]

your missing the obvious answer here why are you standing on the ground where he can hit you.

don't play his game sit up in the air summon a swarm on him if i recall correctly he attacks the nearest enemy which is the swarm which is also immune to his damage.

alternatively just blast him with touch attacks

[elvengunner69]

Just wondering you took MofMF to turn into a troll? Personally I would have went Druid 9 and just wild shaped into a Dire Lion with Produce Flame, Claws of the Bear, Barkskin, Greater Magic Fang, etc.

You could pack a lot of damage on him each round -- could even summon some animals unless you are prohibited. Great Eagles to flank him, wolves to trip him...all while you rip him to pieces as a Dire Lion.

[Greenish]

your missing the obvious answer hereNot missing, just ignoring on purpose.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Just wondering you took MofMF to turn into a troll? Personally I would have went Druid 9 and just wild shaped into a Dire Lion with Produce Flame, Claws of the Bear, Barkskin, Greater Magic Fang, etc.

You could pack a lot of damage on him each round -- could even summon some animals unless you are prohibited. Great Eagles to flank him, wolves to trip him...all while you rip him to pieces as a Dire Lion.

From an optimization standpoint there is actually no good reason to ever go MoMF as long as Enhance Wildshape is on the table.

You get plant and elemental form automatically, aberration is just 2 feats away, Dragon Wild Shape beats MoMF Dragonshape hard thanks to access to supernaturals... and thats just wildshaping.

But it's not always about power, and MoMF is more than enough power for most games. It's a flavor choice.

[elvengunner69]

From an optimization standpoint there is actually no good reason to ever go MoMF as long as Enhance Wildshape is on the table.

You get plant and elemental form automatically, aberration is just 2 feats away, Dragon Wild Shape beats MoMF Dragonshape hard thanks to access to supernaturals... and thats just wildshaping.

But it's not always about power, and MoMF is more than enough power for most games. It's a flavor choice.

I get that -- but he is wondering how to defeat this Dwarf and a Druid 9 is much better than a Druid 7/MofMF 2. Personally the only prestige class that makes sense to me for a Druid is War shaper and only for a 2 lvl dip (to get Morphic immunities (can't be crit'd), boost to claws and at lvl 2 basically a built in bulls str, bears endurance for battles you might not have time to cast those before it gets nasty.

[lord_khaine]

Blinding Spittle (SC). Ranged touch attack (with a -4 penalty), target is blinded, *no save*.

The solution is here, just keep him blindet though the fight, and then continue poking him with a longspear til he either dies or runs of out frenzy.


Beastland Ferocity is level 1, and lasts minutes per level, so one casting should be enough to last the whole fight. But if you suspect otherwise, you can bring multiple castings, or else extend it.

Regeneration converts most damage to non-lethal. Beastland Ferocity lets you keep fighting while in negative HP. Arguably, it should let you keep fighting even if you've taken non-lethal damage in excess of HP, no matter how much non-lethal you have taken.


And i would say this will work as well, so i guess tecnicaly you could instead just keep this up, and beat him at his own game by simply refusing to die?

[sleepyphoenixx]

I get that -- but he is wondering how to defeat this Dwarf and a Druid 9 is much better than a Druid 7/MofMF 2. Personally the only prestige class that makes sense to me for a Druid is War shaper and only for a 2 lvl dip (to get Morphic immunities (can't be crit'd), boost to claws and at lvl 2 basically a built in bulls str, bears endurance for battles you might not have time to cast those before it gets nasty.

You get uncrittable anyway by level 9 with the "Heart of X" series.
Being dispelled is not much of a fear if you can get a few CL increases (Bead of Karma, Ankh of Ascension, Magic Tattoo, etc.).

Morphic Weapons depends heavily on DM ruling and how many additional weapons you can shift since the boost from
a +1 size increase doesn't really match up to the casting you're missing out on.
That said, i like Warshaper too :)

Another dip i really like is 2 levels of Swordsage at level 7 & 8 for a few really nifty utility maneuvers like Shadow Jaunt, Mountain Hammer,
Cloak of Deception and the 3 save boosters along with WIS to AC

It's not like you can't afford to make flaver choices as a Druid.
I actually think you should unless your playing in a campaign where you need every drop of power you can get your hands on.

On Topic: I think you have pretty much everything you need.
No matter how smart or tactically savvy the DM is, a Frenzied Berserker doesn't have all that many options :P

[Venger]

Wow, i can't believe i've never seen that spell before. It would probably be banned in the groups i play with. who needs to play a troll with a HD and LA when you can just be a lvl 7 druid :smallannoyed:

it's vulnerable to being dispelled, has a 1 minute casting time, eats up your fourth, and doesn't last if you switch to something else and back.

even if this spell didn't exist, why on earth would you want to play a troll?


your missing the obvious answer here why are you standing on the ground where he can hit you.

don't play his game sit up in the air summon a swarm on him if i recall correctly he attacks the nearest enemy which is the swarm which is also immune to his damage.

alternatively just blast him with touch attacks

OP is willingly handicapping himself since he's fighting a much less dangerous opponent:


For RP reasons, turning into a bird and simply raining fire down on him is not an option. Yes, I could defeat him, but it does not solve the reason for the duel. This has to be physical combat, although spells are permitted (control/buff/healing)

[Green Leviathan]

I've never actually played a troll before, i just always wondered what it would be like to play a character with regeneration (not fast healing) on all the time. i couldn't find anything lower lvl then troll w/ a LA. i'm sure there is but it's always been something i've wanted to try but never do because of how high the LA & HD are.

that said. yea, druid is better.

[Greenish]

I've never actually played a troll before, i just always wondered what it would be like to play a character with regeneration (not fast healing) on all the time. i couldn't find anything lower lvl then troll w/ a LA.Human with Troll Blooded feat (Dragon #319).


that said. yea, druid is better.They usually are.

[Turk Mannion]

Original Poster here. I was so slammed last week that I was not really able to answer any questions or join the conversation, but I did pop in for the posts.

I want to thank everyone who provided feedback, suggestions, tips and ideas. They were invaluable in themselves, as well as helpful in creating a strategy for the fight itself. Since everyone was so helpful, I wanted to make sure I came back to let you all know how things went. The fight went down last Friday night and it could not have gone much better.

First, I found out that the enemy combatant was NOT a frenzied berserker. He did have rage ability and he was a part warblade, but I do not know more than that. He fought with two weapons (dwarven war ax and hand axe) and wore a breastplate. I know he had DR, but not the amount or source. The DM would not tell me more since he was likely to return at some point (which he did at the end of the session….).

My Battle Plan
I was told very pointedly that if I engaged in straight-up melee, that I would get my ass handed to me, even in cave troll form, which had been my go-to as a Druid 7/MMF 2. So my plan came in three parts: Control the battle field with spells; Occupy him with summoned creatures or animal companion so I had time to buff; Debuff him until he was weak enough to engage in melee.

My Spell List

1st: Crabwalk, Entangle, Obscuring Mist x2, Sandblast x2
2nd: Blinding Spittle x2, Burrow, Bite of the Wererat
3rd: Blindsight, Primal Instinct, Alter Fortune
4th: Bite of the Wereboar, Conjure Ice Beast IV


Scenario
The combat area was a 40’ radius circle in the woods, no obstructions or difficult terrain. Intentionally exiting the area would result in a defeat. Each combatant, as part of the agreement, had Mage Armor cast on them prior to combat (yes, this was more advantageous to me in no armor, but something that I had done every day, so it was considered part of my routine). I also had another PC cast Stalwart Pact on my in secret, known only to him and no other party member, combatant or bystander. I started in human form with my brown bear animal companion at my side.

Round 1
We started about 15’ apart. We tied initiative rolls, but his dex was higher, so he went first. He struck me with two blows, for about 26 hp damage. My bear then stepped up and struck him, then succeeded on a grapple check. This was unexpected, but allowed me to cast Obscuring Mist. I then swift shaped to my surprise form – cave ankylosaurus (with a +17 Natural Armor. The DM just about came out of his skin at that one, but we continued). I then moved away, but stayed in the mist.

Round 2
The dwarf escaped the grapple and struck the bear, doing some pretty good damage to it. The bear struck back and succeeded on another grapple. I cast blindsight and moved again to the side, remaining in the mist.

Round 3
The dwarf failed to escape the bear’s grapple. The bear, in turn, did a bit of damage to the dwarf, but was not able to get much through his damage reduction. I remained in place and cast burrow on myself, to give me a safe means of escape or movement if the mist was dispersed or I had to regroup. At this point, my rolls have been really good and the DM has been rolling pretty poorly. I have managed to accomplish the first three spells while only taking some damage.

Round 4
The dwarf escapes the grapple and lands some significant damage on the bear. The bear misses on its attacks and fails to grapple. I begin casting Conjure Ice Beast IV (full round action) and get a bit closer to the combat (not sure why….).

Round 5
The dwarf kills the bear and moves toward me to attack. Stupidly I have stepped to the edge of the mist and he can see me, although with a miss chance. He swings and misses, luckily not interrupting the spell. On my turn, the spell goes off and I summon two dire wolf constructs (Summon Animal III list) with the engulf ability. They immediately go for engulf and succeed. I cast Bite of the Wererat, wanting some additional boost to AC and dexterity to counter the penalty for blinding spittle, which is likely going to be my next move.

Round 6-13
While the construct is doing small amounts of ice damage to the dwarf, he is trying to escape for a few rounds and is rolling extremely poorly. He then decides to simply sit there and use his healing belt to heal up and counteract the stomach damage. In the meantime, I cast Bite of the Wereboar and Crabwalk, change into Cave Troll form and prepare to engage in final melee combat.

Round 14-20
He escapes the construct and turns invisible with a potion. With blindsight, I can still see him and charge. Here is where I start rolling poorly. Miss with my claws and bite, despite major buffs. We then go back and forth, attacking each other. With buffs, natural armor and items, my AC is at 42, so he needs a 20 just to hit. He does so once and manages almost 20 more damage. But, although I am missing several attacks, I am hitting enough and doing enough damage to whittle him down. Finally, in round 20, he drops to negative HP. Unsure if he is feigning, I back away, and he bleeds out. After watching for a few rounds, I drag him out of the Obscuring Mist and call for assistance from the other party members and NPC’s that were monitoring the combat.

Resolution: In summary, I beat him pretty soundly. The DM was a bit peeved about my shape change form, since I had never used it before, but acknowledged that my choices were sound and the strategy worked. I had plans to use Sandblast to stun him, getting him to drop his weapons, then grabbing them and burrowing underground, leaving them there. Luckily, I did not have to use it, nor did I ever use Blinding Spittle, which I thought would be a sure one. My rolls were very good in the beginning and the animal companion and constructs served their purpose much better than I ever anticipated, giving me time to create a scenario to my benefit.