E6 Infinite Cantrips

[Yogibear41]

Would having a feet in E6 that required Sorcerer 6, that allowed said sorcerer to cast an infinite number of cantrips in a day be Overpowered?

If so what Shenanigans am I missing?

If not would it be OP at an earlier level? Don't want a magic user to have to resort to a crossbow when he can cast 1d3 damage magic spells(acid splash!!), crossbow maybe better but, the magic seems more flavor appropriate.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

It could effectively allow infinite first level spells, via Versatile Spellcaster, depending on how the feat was worded.

[Fates]

Eh, things like that are iffy to say the least. Certain spells can be horribly abused that way (IE Material-Eschewed Launch Bolt), and even assuming no abuse, it's probably way too powerful for a single feat. Maybe if the feat let you cast a single cantrip at will, and could be taken multiple times.

[Jeff the Green]

As long as you disallow silly things (like the aforementioned Eschew Materials launch bolt) and abusive things (like the aforementioned infinite level 1 spells), it should be fine. Actually, Pathfinder does this for free, and it's a pretty well liked feature.

[Kamai]

I'd watch out for Prestidigation and Detect Magic as at-will spells. Prestidigation because of some of the crazy stuff you can pull off with it, and Detect Magic at-will can really dilute what your classic trapfinder brings to the table (as well as plots that need magic to be hidden, say a charmed/dominated leader). Otherwise it should be fine, but more problematic if you extended it to something like the Favored Soul (or other divine spontaneous).

[Wookie-ranger]

It is a Pathfinder standard and I incorporate it in most games where I can. Barring obvious abusive strategies to get more higher level spells, it is not very overpowered.
Most of the 0-level spells are not combat relevant after about level 5; and if you can use it in a clever way more power to the player.
If the players are not actively trying to cheat the system and/or break the game there is no harm in it.

BUT:
One thing to keep in mind is the setting. Low level casters are wide spread even in low-magic campaigns. Can those also cast infinite cantrips? are the PCs special? How will this affect society as a whole?

[Erik Vale]

I actually have an Idea for a PF/3.5 Character that dips into one non-arcane spellcasting class [Like druid, then gaving natures boon/something else I can't remember to increase effective druid level] while picking up magical training [dnd] for 3 Wizard cantrips [and possibly precocious aprentice for a single level 2 of cheese], and then going into psion, for a ridiculously huge amount of level 0 powers at will, ranging from damage to utility. May not be as powerful as a warlock 6, but just as endurent.

Actually, it would be best to think of it as a warlock. A Warlock will be more powerful and just as endurent at the end, but will have less versitility while it waits to pick up extra invocation feats, perhaps call it a teir to for the adaptability, but lacking the punch of other classes. [IMO, Warlock jumps a teir in high end E6 games.]

[Amnestic]

I'd watch out for Prestidigation and Detect Magic as at-will spells. Prestidigation because of some of the crazy stuff you can pull off with it, and Detect Magic at-will can really dilute what your classic trapfinder brings to the table (as well as plots that need magic to be hidden, say a charmed/dominated leader). Otherwise it should be fine, but more problematic if you extended it to something like the Favored Soul (or other divine spontaneous).

Bear in mind that Dragonfire Adepts can choose to have at-will Detect Magic from 1st level, while this wouldn't come online, for single-classed Sorcs only, until 6th.

In fact, via the Extra Invocation feat, it could come out to the same cost - one feat at sixth level. Sorcs get more cantrips of course, but DFAs also get Identify at will as well, which is a first level spell and arguably a hell of a lot more handy to have.

[PersonMan]

[...]Detect Magic at-will can really dilute [...] plots that need magic to be hidden, say a charmed/dominated leader).

If the entire plot is based on "PCs don't use Detect Magic" then I think there's a problem.

Easiest solution? Have the leader's court wizard or equivalent have Detect Magic up when the party comes in or examine them with it, and dispel/have them dismiss any active spells they have up. If someone starts casting in the room, stop them. There are perfectly good reasons for doing so (if you walk in with a magic aura, you could be someone else in disguise, an assassin, etc.) and it shuts down the problem without tipping them off.

[Slipperychicken]

If the entire plot is based on "PCs don't use Detect Magic" then I think there's a problem.

Easiest solution? Have the leader's court wizard or equivalent have Detect Magic up when the party comes in or examine them with it, and dispel/have them dismiss any active spells they have up. If someone starts casting in the room, stop them. There are perfectly good reasons for doing so (if you walk in with a magic aura, you could be someone else in disguise, an assassin, etc.) and it shuts down the problem without tipping them off.

Court Wizard could cast Misdirection a few times a day, Extending some of them.

Also, Dominate doesn't work in E6, short of extreme cheese. It's a 4th level spell. And it's hard to keep a Charm up the whole time -even if you're 6th level and Extend it to be 12 hours, you still need the King to fail two saves a day.

[JeenLeen]

I like the idea. I don't think I could get my DM to approve it, but I really liked it when I played Pathfinder.

I can't think of any sorcerer spells that would make it overpowered, especially at level 6. Just check the spell list thoroughly and explain that it won't work for anything easily abused.

Note if you allowed something similar for clerics:
I noticed that Pathfinder does not have level 0 spells that cure HP. There's a level 0 spell that heals 1 HP. If you don't ban it with this rule, that lets a cleric give the party infinite healing per day, out-of-combat. For E6, especially at low levels, this could be considered overpowered.

I guess if you had a party of mostly warforged, he could do the same if there's a similar Repair spell... but at level 6, that may be okay.

Pathfinder does still give you the spells that give a +1 bonus (Resistance, for example), so I don't think there's a problem with that. Just don't get annoyed if the PCs, by default, recast it every time it wears off. (I forget if the sorc/wiz list has spells that do such things.)

[supermonkeyjoe]

Even detect magic isn't that powerful at-will if you read the rules, for one you have to maintain concentration (a standard action each round) for 3 rounds per 60' cone to actually figure out what's magical and it can be blocked by any number of things.

Since pathfinder made all cantrips/orisons at-will you may want to have a look at those to see how they managed the balance of those, IIRC most of them are unchanged.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The only 0-level spells I can think of where this would be an issue are cure minor wounds and create water. I allow infinite 0's in most games I run, with the caveat that if people start abusing it somehow I'll take it away, and it's worked fine.

On a tangentially related note, how do you abuse launch bolt?

[Deadline]

Would having a feet in E6 that required Sorcerer 6, that allowed said sorcerer to cast an infinite number of cantrips in a day be Overpowered?

If so what Shenanigans am I missing?

If not would it be OP at an earlier level? Don't want a magic user to have to resort to a crossbow when he can cast 1d3 damage magic spells(acid splash!!), crossbow maybe better but, the magic seems more flavor appropriate.

Seems to be a reasonable feat. I'd treat it as a Reserve Feat, to avoid the Versatile Spellcaster Shenanigans. Something like:

Magic in the Blood [Reserve]
Prerequisites: Able to spontaneously cast 1st level arcane spells.
Benefit: As long as you have at least one 0-level spell slot available, you may use any of your 0-level spells known as a spell-like ability, at will.

[Hylas]

On a tangentially related note, how do you abuse launch bolt?

I believe it has to do with launching colossal sized arrows and then using Eschew Materials to make it cost nothing, as the arrow is a material component.

[Lapak]

I don't see it as being a problem, barring (possibly) the already-mentioned Cure Minor Wounds.

If you're concerned about it eliminating non-magical options for spellcasters completely, I suppose you could make it so that casting 0-level spells when you've already run dry on slots is a full-round action, to simulate the fact that it takes a little more effort to dredge up that energy from scratch. But it sounds like giving casters to option to eliminate non-magical actions may be what you're going for in the first place. :smallbiggrin:

[NM020110]

Seems to be a reasonable feat. I'd treat it as a Reserve Feat, to avoid the Versatile Spellcaster Shenanigans. Something like:

Magic in the Blood [Reserve]
Prerequisites: Able to spontaneously cast 1st level arcane spells.
Benefit: As long as you have at least one 0-level spell slot available, you may use any of your 0-level spells known as a spell-like ability, at will.

It might be a good idea to specify cantrips from the sorceror progression, lest another caster dip sorceror for this.

[Deadline]

It might be a good idea to specify cantrips from the sorceror progression, lest another caster dip sorceror for this.

Given how costly (in E6) it would be for another caster to dip a level in sorcerer for this feat, I'm not sure why it would be a big deal. And yes, I'm well aware of the possibility of "OMG LOLZ INFINITE HEALZ!" out of combat, but in this day and age where a veritable buffet of curative magics are available, is this even an issue?

There's a reserve feat for healing that does the same thing, albeit only up to half the recipient's hp.

[Flickerdart]

Resistance at-will saves you 1000gp on a Cloak of Resistance, but by 6th level you'll probably spring for a +2 cloak.

[Deadline]

Resistance at-will saves you 1000gp on a Cloak of Resistance, but by 6th level you'll probably spring for a +2 cloak.

And you'd have to cast it every minute to keep it up all day (it has a duration of 1 minute, not 1 minute/level, 1 minute). Odds are good that will mean at least one of your in combat actions will be wasted.

And it has a verbal and somatic component. So you'd be muttering and fidgeting almost constantly. That would probably make it difficult to carry on any sort of conversation.

And you wouldn't be able to have it active while you were sleeping.

But other than that, sure, you could save yourself a little bit of gp.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would up the prereq to spontaneously casting 2nd level spells, and add in language that says that you can, as a spell like ability, cast any level zero arcane spell you can spontaneously cast.

This opens it up to all spontaneous casters of arcane spells like bard and beguiler, and removes the risk of dipping.

[Flickerdart]

And you'd have to cast it every minute to keep it up all day (it has a duration of 1 minute, not 1 minute/level, 1 minute). Odds are good that will mean at least one of your in combat actions will be wasted.

And it has a verbal and somatic component. So you'd be muttering and fidgeting almost constantly. That would probably make it difficult to carry on any sort of conversation.

And you wouldn't be able to have it active while you were sleeping.

But other than that, sure, you could save yourself a little bit of gp.
Spending three seconds every minute of conversation to do a spell isn't that much of a burden, but yes, sometimes combat will happen just as the previous one runs out (10% odds). But if you have to choose between a Cloak of Resistance +1 and, say, a Healing Belt, then spell is better than nothing.

[Deadline]

I would up the prereq to spontaneously casting 2nd level spells, and add in language that says that you can, as a spell like ability, cast any level zero arcane spell you can spontaneously cast.

This opens it up to all spontaneous casters of arcane spells like bard and beguiler, and removes the risk of dipping.

*shrug* It works for those casters now, but I'll be the first to admit that it probably needs modification. It was an off the cuff effort to fit the OP's wishes.

Were this for a regular game, I'd up the prereq a bit. But since this is an E6 game, and dipping it would require you to give up 1/6th of the levels you will ever get, I didn't see a reason for it to be too restrictive.

But yeah, specifying that it only works for Arcane spells is probably necessary.


Spending three seconds every minute of conversation to do a spell isn't that much of a burden, but yes, sometimes combat will happen just as the previous one runs out (10% odds). But if you have to choose between a Cloak of Resistance +1 and, say, a Healing Belt, then spell is better than nothing.

I disagree with the level of burden, but I suppose that's a matter of personal taste. And it's possible that the spell expires in later rounds of combat. This being an E6 game, combat is not guaranteed to be over in 1 round, even if you are a Wizard.

[Andreaz]

Except for metamagic abuse, infinite cantrips is not really an issue. They're amazing fun and the combat advantages are few enough no one cares and gets obviated in two or three levels at most.

I absolutely love it, but it doesn't have the mechanical impact to justify charging you for it.

[Flickerdart]

This being an E6 game, combat is not guaranteed to be over in 1 round, even if you are a Wizard.
A victorious general first wins, and then goes to war, whereas a poor general first goes to war and then expects to win. :smallsmile:

[Yogibear41]

Feat will only be for arcane casters not divine so no infinite spammable heals. And besides clerics can still wear heavy armor and pick up a mace to smack you with it should they run out of spells, I just dislick the guy with robes haveing to carry around a crossbow as a backup weapon...

[Deadline]

A victorious general first wins, and then goes to war, whereas a poor general first goes to war and then expects to win. :smallsmile:

"Where the f*** did that come from?" - Sun Tzu as an adventurer in D&D, after a 7-round combat with an Invisible Stalker. :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

"Where the f*** did that come from?" - Sun Tzu as an adventurer in D&D, after a 7-round combat with an Invisible Stalker. :smallwink:
Sun Tzu said, "To lift an autumn hair is no sign of great strength; to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight; to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear."

[ericgrau]

Well I imagine you'd roll a d10 to see how many rounds are left. I'd give it a 60-70% chance of lasting through the most important part of the fight anyway, and a 90% chance of being at least partly useful.

I think detect magic at will is more powerful than people are thinking though. If you concentrate on it all day long, then at medium to high level it becomes "detect significant foe" (even if invisible), "detect half the good traps" and so on. Sure it doesn't tell you exactly where a mobile target is or what it is, but it keeps you from ever being surprised and then you can buff up, pop more significant divinations, etc. Heck that's the main flaw of other divinations: not knowing when to pop them. Now you do. That's cwazy.

Most people who play pathfinder don't try to abuse it though or if they do it immediately gets house ruled. But it's a rather gaping flaw otherwise. It's far from world shattering, but it's way too strong for a cantrip. Once everyone starts using it, including monsters, all kinds of magical concealment become a joke. Such as rope trick. And the problem I have with ignoring it or house ruling it away is that it prevents legitimate uses that are balanced by the cost, like permanency. Or a sorcerer expending 3-6 uses to be on high alert.

OTOH any cantrip that you don't keep up all day is 100% not broken. I mean you could do the same thing with a 375 gp wand.

[mattie_p]

Sun Tzu said, "... to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight..."

More proof (as if any was needed) that Sun Tzu never played 3.5

[Slipperychicken]

More proof (as if any was needed) that Sun Tzu never played 3.5

You could just imagine the guy badgering his DM for whether the enemies were resting on their spears or not, and other shenanigans.


DM: "Okay, it looks like the Orcs greatly mistrust their Bugbear allies. They appear to be in a heated, contentious argument and ignoring the gate. What do you do?"

Sun: "I sit at east with my friends."

DM: :smalleek:

[Flickerdart]

If anyone played 3.5, it was the author of the Thirty-Six Stratagems. I give you:
Loot a burning house;
Take the opportunity to pilfer a goat;
Borrow a corpse to resurrect the soul;
Feign madness but keep your balance;
If all else fails, retreat.

[Wookie-ranger]

Note if you allowed something similar for clerics:
I noticed that Pathfinder does not have level 0 spells that cure HP. There's a level 0 spell that heals 1 HP. If you don't ban it with this rule, that lets a cleric give the party infinite healing per day, out-of-combat. For E6, especially at low levels, this could be considered overpowered.

I don't see the problem.
Dread Necromancer with the 'Tomb Tainted Soul' feat can do at all day long...


If you DM is really that scared about 0-level spells make it a feat per spell.
"
Infinite magic.
Choose one 0-level spell that you know and can cast. You can use this spell as a spell-like ability once per round.
"

Alternatively ask your DM if you can make a custom eternal wand with a 0-level spell that works 12 times a day (or something like that)

[W3bDragon]

My 2 cents on the matter.

Firstly, the primary concern with infinite cantrips is endless out of combat healing. I actually don't agree with others that cite other examples of infinite healing to make their case. Just because there are some corner cases that get infinite healing, doesn't mean you should approve a feat that allows it with no strings attached. Not everybody plays in the same manner, and what would be inconsequential for some is game breaking for others.

Secondly, since your problem isn't that wizards don't get enough cantrips, but that wizards should always be able to throw some magic around instead of firing a crossbow, then I would point you in the direction of Reserve feats.

I would just make a small modification to the reserve feats. For example, Fiery Burst requires that you have at least a 2nd level spell in reserve. I would change that so the caster can use the feat even if he doesn't have any fire spells left, or any spells for that matter, but the damage defaults to one die of damage. The same can be applied to the other reserve feats.

That way, you fix what you dislike about casters running out of cantrips without actually messing with the cantrips themselves.

[PersonMan]

I don't see the problem with infinite healing. It just means that the party rests when the casters are out of spells...which they already do.

More resources on interesting things, less on healing? I don't have a problem with that.

[Darrin]

Other than Versatile Spellcaster and cure minor wounds, are there any other ways to break infinite cantrips? (I don't really consider launch bolt all that breakable.)

For Versatile Spellcaster, just houserule that it doesn't work with 0-level spells.

Cure minor wounds has several fixes: remove it entirely (Pathfinder), cap it at 50% (Vigor draconic aura), or establish a daily limit per creature (1-3 HP should be sufficient).

[Fouredged Sword]

Limit it to arcane, and make them SLAs, and limit them to a set selection determined at the time the feat is selected (maybe casting stat of cantraps).

Now you can't trade the slots up, can't metamagic them, and the only arcane healer is bard and bard does not get cure minor wounds, so no unlimited healing.

The worst thing someone will do is use some of the limited meta-spell like ability feats to quicken three acid splashes a day.