Effectiveness of Magic Items in combating class tiers

[Chaosvii7]

I just wanted to see what you all thought of the idea of DMs offsetting the tiers by giving lower tiers more physical resources to offset the magical resources available to higher tier characters, in the form of equipment, particularly magic items.

Particularly, if you could draw on experiences you recall from BEFORE you read/realized the tier system. There's no pressing matter to it or anything, I just want to see what you all think, being reasonably minded gamers who have an understanding of the system finer than a good number of players.

[Big Fau]

Prior to the Tiers thread's existence, there was a lot of talk that you could do anything with UMD. I stand by that ideology. Given enough access to magic items every class from Commoner to Warblade is capable of rivaling a Sorcerer, if only in sheer game-breaking potential.

[Flickerdart]

Spells are power, and more money can buy you more spells. The feat Apprentice (Spellcaster) gets you UMD in-class, and then you can get wands and scrolls and stuff.

It is important to note that this particular method affects the tier system in exactly zero ways - if a fighter attempts to bolster his own power by imitating wizards, he's not suddenly a good fighter, he's just a bad wizard. In the low levels you can at least buff up and then break faces, but in the mid and high levels, hitting stuff til death as a combat tactic begins to be useless in the face of powerful and broad-reaching SoD/SoL spells. And if someone wanted to play a wizard, they would just write "wizard" on their character sheet.

The alternative - that low tiers use their extra cash to buy better magic swords and armours and all those nifty 3/day items from the MIC - is even worse, because a good fighter is still worse off than a bad wizard. I invite you to read through some of the Monkday and Fighter Friday threads in the archive, and note how much of the discussion is "I get <esoteric item a> to overcome <spell q>" and how much is "and then I hit him with my sword/fists and he dies". As the levels go up, you have to play the spells game, because the game expects you to have answers to level-appropriate effects.

[Gazzien]

I... um... well, I think that they're useful, and good for the beatsticks, but the tiers somehow don't seem to bother our group much. -shrugs-

It's probably just an unspoken Gentleman's Agreement, but hey. It works anyways. The melee do tend to get more loot though, IC-determined. They need the gold for their extra equipment (sword/offhand/armor vs armor).

[Man on Fire]

As the levels go up, you have to play the spells game, because the game expects you to have answers to level-appropriate effects.

Or you can have GM who designs challenges appriorate to his party.

[Flickerdart]

Or you can have GM who designs challenges appriorate to his party.
There are so many problems with this line of thinking that I'm not even going to go into them. "It's not broken because the DM can fix it" is an exceptionally irritating fallacy.

[Man on Fire]

There are so many problems with this line of thinking that I'm not even going to go into them. "It's not broken because the DM can fix it" is an exceptionally irritating fallacy.

Good that it wasn't what I said. No, it's not broken because DM can fix it. But if it is broken, DM can fix it or simply not use it. And smart DM would remember that.
And honestly - what is wrong with having your DM remember what his player can do when he designs the ecounters? Only an idiot will throw a monster that required specific way, that not a single member in the party can acess, to beat at the party. Unless he doesn't want them to beat it, of course.

[thatryanguy]

Good that it wasn't what I said. No, it's not broken because DM can fix it. But if it is broken, DM can fix it or simply not use it. And smart DM would remember that.
And honestly - what is wrong with having your DM remember what his player can do when he designs the ecounters? Only an idiot will throw a monster that required specific way, that not a single member in the party can acess, to beat at the party. Unless he doesn't want them to beat it, of course.

I believe the issue isn't that of the entire party being unable to accomplish specific tasks, but that certain members who happened to choose lower tier classes are less capable of participating than higher tiers. OP wants to know what people think about giving the lower tier characters better gear to provide them more options/better chances.

Personally, I've never enjoyed playing casters in my group, because they have/use pretty well all the books, and expect people playing casters to have as strong a familiarity with all spells, and how they can be used/abused as they have. It's way too easy to cripple a caster if you're building them for flavor rather than OP-ness. As such, having magic items to offset the lack of capabilities has been something I've always appreciated. It inspires more creativity, and makes games more interesting, than just running a fighter who has the choice of "If there's a bad guy, I hit stuff" or "If there's no bad guy, I don't hit stuff"

[Flickerdart]

Personally, I've never enjoyed playing casters in my group, because they have/use pretty well all the books, and expect people playing casters to have as strong a familiarity with all spells, and how they can be used/abused as they have.
Is that also not true of items, though? What is the difference between book-diving for spells and book-diving for gear?

[thatryanguy]

Is that also not true of items, though? What is the difference between book-diving for spells and book-diving for gear?

The spell-caster's player gets to choose what spells they want, whereas the DM gets to decide what items the group gets, and balance encounters based on what they have.

[Karnith]

The spell-caster's player gets to choose what spells they want, whereas the DM gets to decide what items the group gets, and balance encounters based on what they have.
I object to this on two accounts. First, when I DM, I make sure that my players understand that they need to run by any spells that they learn/use by me, and generally they get clear guidelines on what is and is not allowable with those spells (i.e. "Celerity and its variants are banned," "abuses of polymorph etc. are not allowed," "I am not allowing wish to perform any of the 'greater effects,' and it cannot be used to create magic items," and so forth). Casters should be limited on what spells they can choose at anything but the highest op-levels, given the plethora of stupid spells that exist. EDIT: On reflection, I doubt that's what you meant, especially if you think that it's appropriate for non-casters to depend on DM generosity for their items. Carry on.

Second, giving casters free rein over what spells they can use while limiting mundanes to equipment they pick up is just pointlessly penalizing noncasters, especially since the game assumes magic marts. Spells > items, generally.

[Flickerdart]

The spell-caster's player gets to choose what spells they want, whereas the DM gets to decide what items the group gets, and balance encounters based on what they have.
Or you can go to a store. The gp cap for item availability by the rules is something like 250k for a planar metropolis; even in a regular city I think it's 60k.

[Shining Wrath]

I think the problem is that higher-tier characters also get more benefit from loot. The more flexible you are, the more ways you have to use loot.

Giving fighters things that let them occasionally emulate a spell caster just makes them fighters with poor casting abilities.

[Karnith]

Or you can go to a store. The gp cap for item availability by the rules is something like 250k for a planar metropolis; even in a regular city I think it's 60k.
Large cities (12,001+ people) have a cap of 40,000 gold, and it's 100,000 gp for a regular metropolis, which should be more than adequate to procure gear at anything but the highest levels.

[Greenish]

The spell-caster's player gets to choose what spells they want, whereas the DM gets to decide what items the group gets, and balance encounters based on what they have.I'll rather sell off that random +X longsword (it's usually a longsword) of [Element] Burst and buy stuff that's useful for me, which usually means pretty specific (like "+1 Everbright Aquatic Dwarvencraft Elven Courtblade with Triple Weapon Capsule Retainer", or cablespool, rope, bug repellant, fur clothes, armor insulation, Talisman of the Disk, Shadow Cloak of Resistance, Boots of Agile Leaping and Translocation, Third Eye Clarity…)

Well, the point is, there are lots of items from lots of places, so if the DM has to find and implement everything, either that's a huge add on his/her workload, or you'll miss on cool minor stuff and possibly on vital defenses.