wizard/loremaster gian two free spells?

[isildur]

When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of loremaster to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.

By RAW, the answer is no. But i find this F&Q

D&D Main FAQ
I can’t find any information about how many spells prestige class spellcasters know. I am going on the presumption that those that gain bonus spells per day of their existing class (such as loremaster and spellsword) do not automatically add additional spells to their spellbook as they gain levels.

They do add spells to their lists. For example, a wizard/loremaster gains 2 spells for her spellbook when using a loremaster level to increase spellcasting. A sorcerer/loremaster would learn more spells as well. Adding spells to your spellbook or personal repertoire is part of spellcasting.

Although this FAQ is for 3e, 3e and 3.5e use exactly same phrase for loremaster(archmage, fatespiner ...etc). Then i think 3.5e wizard/loremaster also gain two free spell. Is it correct?

[Andreaz]

Consensus is no. A wizard doesn't have a list of spells known. It has a list of spells it can cast and can prepare any spell from a spellbook they understand (which may be any and all of them, just a few spellcraft checks away)

[Nich_Critic]

I don't know, I've always taken for granted that advancing your spellcasting as a wizard meant that you get your two free spells.

[Kish]

I see no reason for that rule to have changed between 3.0ed and 3.5ed, unless some source indicates that it has. So yes, a wizard/loremaster would gain two new spells on gaining a loremaster level.

[Waker]

My ruling is no, they don't get the extra two spells. The part where it says a Wizard gets free spells when leveling up is listed under spellbook, separate from the actual description of their spellcasting. And as Andreaz pointed out, they don't have spells known, just what spells are in their spellbook.

[ahenobarbi]

My ruling is no, they don't get the extra two spells. The part where it says a Wizard gets free spells when leveling up is listed under spellbook, separate from the actual description of their spellcasting. And as Andreaz pointed out, they don't have spells known, just what spells are in their spellbook.

Wizard have spells know. Check glossary at the end of PhB (entry for
"known spell", it may be non-ogl so I'm not quoting).

So wizard should get new spells for advancing in Loremaster.

EDIT: Checked that I'm quoting possibly non-ogl material, removed the quote.

[Andreaz]

Wizard have spells know. Check glossary at the end of PhB (entry for
"known spell"). "For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks".

So wizard should get new spells for advancing in Loremaster.That statement is not helpful because they can read any spellbook, not only those they own. They also not only can lose spells known that way, they also regain them. Or can know them twice.

[Kish]

That statement is not helpful because they can read any spellbook, not only those they own. They also not only can lose spells known that way, they also regain them.

...Yes, and? Is "unable to be lost/unable to regained" some part of your definition of "known spell"?

Is this argument over RAW (which seems, by that FAQ, to be pretty unambiguous) or over house rules?

[ahenobarbi]

That statement is not helpful because they can read any spellbook, not only those they own. They also not only can lose spells known that way, they also regain them. Or can know them twice.

Loremaster doesn't care about any of that. All that matters is the fact that wizards get spells known for taking levels in wizard.

[CaladanMoonblad]

I'm sorry, walk through how you interpreted the Loremaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm)spell level and spells gained as the opposite of how I read it?

It seems fairly unambiguous to me that Loremaster gets the 2 new free spells each level that a wizard normally enjoys, unlike most arcane prestige classes.

[isildur]

I'm sorry, walk through how you interpreted the Loremaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm)spell level and spells gained as the opposite of how I read it?

It seems fairly unambiguous to me that Loremaster gets the 2 new free spells each level that a wizard normally enjoys, unlike most arcane prestige classes.

When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), Someone thinks wizard has no "spells known" then wizard can't get free spells.

[CaladanMoonblad]

When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), Someone thinks wizard has no "spells known" then wizard can't get free spells.

Why would someone think a wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard) has no "spells known" list? Every arcane NPC I've seen published by WotC has a spells known listing, and the SRD equates the sorcerer's spells known with spellbook because both descriptions are under "Spells." These sections reference each other as well such as "unlike a sorcerer or bard..."in terms of spell preparation.

[JoshuaZ]

When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), Someone thinks wizard has no "spells known" then wizard can't get free spells.

I've generally ruled thought that they do, but it is ambiguous. One thing to note is that in Pathfinder they've ruled that it does not (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/loremaster). Honestly wizards have enough stuff as is, that it really isn't that big a deal to say they have to go search for spells or the like. The effort involved ins't that high in almost any setting where wizards are viable.

[ahenobarbi]

When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), Someone thinks wizard has no "spells known" then wizard can't get free spells.

Someone should check glossary in PhB for definition of "known spell".

[ahenobarbi]

I've generally ruled thought that they do, but it is ambiguous.

How is this ambiguous? Wizard spells known are clearly defined. By the definition wizard clearly gains spells for taking a level in wizard class. So clearly the wizard should gain the same number of spells known for advancing in Loremaster.

You might houserule that wizards don't get spells known for taking levels in PrCs. But official rules clearly say something different/

[isildur]

Why would someone think a wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard) has no "spells known" list? Every arcane NPC I've seen published by WotC has a spells known listing, and the SRD equates the sorcerer's spells known with spellbook because both descriptions are under "Spells." These sections reference each other as well such as "unlike a sorcerer or bard..."in terms of spell preparation.

Because wizard need spell book to prepare spell. Sorcerer knows their spells by heart. But i agree with your idea.

[ArcturusV]

I think where the confusion comes from, is that A) The FAQs are often not really correct, or contradict themselves. And B) How the same ability is ruled on classes that are meant for Wizards specifically rather than any arcane caster.

I mean compare the Elf Paragon for example:


At 2nd and 3rd level, an elf paragon gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in wizard. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic feats, and so on). This essentially means that she adds the level of elf paragon to her level in wizard, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If an elf paragon has no levels in wizard, this class feature has no effect.

Now... this is the one time I can think of a class that specifically advances Wizard casting, and can't be used for Bards, Sorcerers, etc, as well. Which kind of suggests the "And spells known" is boilerplate on the ability so that Sorcerers and Bards can continue to get new spells. Because that's the only way they could get new spells.

Note as well that the Wizard "Two spells" is not actually linked to their Spellcasting ability in the class ability section. It's a totally different ability related to their Spellbook. Which also leads to the suggestion that RAW it doesn't trigger, as the usual boiler plate says "Advances Spellcasting and Spells Known". Or "Advances Spells Per Day, and Spells Known" which are both specific references to tables/abilities in classes.

But in the end? It doesn't really matter unless you are running a campaign where the DM is trying to power cap Wizards. That simple. A wizard can still research spells for his book. Copy spell books, copy scrolls, etc. They don't really need those 2 spells per level from their Spellbook ability. The only time that's really relevant (Not like Wizards aren't typically flush with wealth to buy spell scrolls, books, or spend on research), is when the DM is telling you that you cannot find spellbooks, scrolls, and automatically fail your research.

[isildur]

I think where the confusion comes from, is that A) The FAQs are often not really correct, or contradict themselves. And B) How the same ability is ruled on classes that are meant for Wizards specifically rather than any arcane caster.

I mean compare the Elf Paragon for example:



Now... this is the one time I can think of a class that specifically advances Wizard casting, and can't be used for Bards, Sorcerers, etc, as well. Which kind of suggests the "And spells known" is boilerplate on the ability so that Sorcerers and Bards can continue to get new spells. Because that's the only way they could get new spells.

Note as well that the Wizard "Two spells" is not actually linked to their Spellcasting ability in the class ability section. It's a totally different ability related to their Spellbook. Which also leads to the suggestion that RAW it doesn't trigger, as the usual boiler plate says "Advances Spellcasting and Spells Known". Or "Advances Spells Per Day, and Spells Known" which are both specific references to tables/abilities in classes.

But in the end? It doesn't really matter unless you are running a campaign where the DM is trying to power cap Wizards. That simple. A wizard can still research spells for his book. Copy spell books, copy scrolls, etc. They don't really need those 2 spells per level from their Spellbook ability. The only time that's really relevant (Not like Wizards aren't typically flush with wealth to buy spell scrolls, books, or spend on research), is when the DM is telling you that you cannot find spellbooks, scrolls, and automatically fail your research.

Reasonable idea, but there are other class that doesn't use that phrase. Eldrich Knight.

Spells per Day

From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an eldritch knight, she must decide to which class she adds each level of eldritch knight for the purpose of deter

Maybe it's a just mistake or something, or Eldrich Knight is only designed for wizard.

[ArcturusV]

Well, it's an example of what I was talking about. The Eldritch Knight doesn't actually require Wizard. It requires just 3rd level Arcane Spells. So Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard in Core, are all applicable options. Of course it means Sorcerers and Bards are shafted because they don't get Spells Known.

Then again, this could also be something where the FAQ is technically correct, but mostly because someone at WotC went, "you know... lets just throw them a bone. Why make it more difficult than it has to be?"

Or just a case of bad writing. Well, unclear writing, on either the part of Unearthed Arcana which mentions the example I listed or on the standard boiler plate from the DMG that got ported over to other arcane spell casting PrCs.

I can't say for certain myself. As a DM? I probably wouldn't give the wizard the free spells. They're usually already picking PrCs that are strictly better than wizards. They can just consider it something of a tax to have to shell out cash (Or adventure) for new spells at that point. They're already getting a great deal on top of what they have.

[Aasimar]

They don't.

Gaining 2 new spells per level is a wizard class feature.

Loremaster grants spellcasting progression, but no other feature of the base spellcasting class.

I'm sure I've seen it as errata or FAQ somewhere...

Ah:


When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/loremaster

So, since a wizard is not a spontaneous caster...

[isildur]

They don't.

Gaining 2 new spells per level is a wizard class feature.

Loremaster grants spellcasting progression, but no other feature of the base spellcasting class.

I'm sure I've seen it as errata or FAQ somewhere...

Ah:



http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/loremaster

So, since a wizard is not a spontaneous caster...

Pathfinder is not 3.5e.

[Aasimar]

Ah, I completely missed that.

Seems to make sense though.

[Aasimar]

Also seems to match up, though not quite as cut and dry.

From the Wizard class: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard

Spellbooks

A wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own.



From the Loremaster Prestige Class:

Spells per Day/Spells Known

When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

I'd be tempted to rule that the pathfinder understanding is the intended one. Spells known (if applicable) would refer to spontanous casters, who would otherwise never gain spells. The Spellbook is a different class feature of a wizard.

[ahenobarbi]

@Aasimar:

1. Wizards get 2 spells known for getting level in wizard (see definition of known spells in Glossary of Players Handbook and Wizard class description).

2. Loremater gets spells known as if it gained level in earlier spell casting class.

So Wizard / Loremaster gets 2 new spells known for taking a level in Lore master.

[Aasimar]

The loremaster only gains spells known 'if applicable' I think that refers to spontanous spellcasters, who only have that mechanism of gaining new spells.

Wizards gain it through their spellbook ability, which is not the same as their general spellcasting ability.

[KillianHawkeye]

This is one case where the RAW is just wrong IMO. Let the wizards have their 2 spells a level! Not every DM is generous with scrolls and enemy spellbooks.

Besides, copying a spell takes like a whole day or something. That's ridiculous. Not every campaign allows that much spare time.

[Carth]

known spell:A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.

Anything that advances spells known, depending on the wording, could trigger a wizard getting new spells known.

[ahenobarbi]

The loremaster only gains spells known 'if applicable' I think that refers to spontanous spellcasters, who only have that mechanism of gaining new spells.

Wizards gain it through their spellbook ability, which is not the same as their general spellcasting ability.


But "gaining spells known for gaining a level" definitely is applicable to wizards.

[Aasimar]

Is it?

They do gain spells known, but as a separate function from their casting progression.

I'll agree that a case can be made for it in 3.5, but I hardly think it's a slam dunk.

In this case, I'd probably go with 'Sure, if the GM thinks it's ok.' But he'd be equally justified in deciding that a Loremaster had to make do with found spells and spells independently researched.

[ahenobarbi]

Is it?

They do gain spells known, but as a separate function from their casting progression.

I'll agree that a case can be made for it in 3.5, but I hardly think it's a slam dunk.

Loremaster text doesn't say that it must be described as part of spellcasting ability.


In this case, I'd probably go with 'Sure, if the GM thinks it's ok.' But he'd be equally justified in deciding that a Loremaster had to make do with found spells and spells independently researched.

Yup, DM can rule either way. But question was "what are rules on the subject" not "which makes mores sense" (and here a lot depends on the group).

[HunterOfJello]

I think a remember a thread a while back where it was established that wizards don't gain new spells from levels in prestige classes by RAW. However, wizards gaining new spells known has always been controlled by DMs since DMs decide which scrolls are found, readily available, and how much gp a party has to spend on such things.

I think that most DMs and groups have the wizard gain 2 free new spells known at level up in appropriate prestige classes because they either haven't studied the RAW specifics or recognize that it would just be a 'Wizard GP Tax' to enforce no free spells at level up.

[ahenobarbi]

I think a remember a thread a while back where it was established that wizards don't gain new spells from levels in prestige classes by RAW.

I hear that forums agreed on that but I don't understand why. As far as I can tell RAW clearly says otherwise.