Pathfinder Wizard Optimization

[Story]

I've recently been invited to play in a Pathfinder game. I will start at level 7, and I'm planning to play an Elven Wizard. While I've read a lot about 3.5, I'm completely new to Pathfinder, and there seem to be a lot fewer guide on the subject.

The first question is what to do with Arcane Bond. +4 initiative is nice, but it might be awkward carrying around a scorpion everywhere, and the dinosaurs are even worse. A bonded item would be thematic, but Treantmonk's guide recommended against it. Is Spellbonded any good?

The next question is school: Conjuration and Transmutation were king in 3.5, but Transmutation was heavily nerfed, and I'm not sure how useful Conjuration will be in Pathfinder. Especially since they don't use a battlegrid. It looks like the DM just guesses who can attack who in the battle, so battlefield control might get complicated. I'm thinking about specializing in Divination so I can get the Forewarned ability.

Next is feats: I have no idea what to pick here, as I'm under the impression that Pathfinder changed all the feats, even the ones that are similar to Core feats.

Lastly what spells should I take? It looks like the only spells in common with 3.5 are the Core spells, and most of them were nerfed.


Oh one other thing - is there any equivalent to Necropolitan in Pathfinder? I'd like to play one, but the DM already ruled out 3.5 material. I figure there probably isn't, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

[Squirrel_Dude]

On Schools:
Conjuration is still awesome in Pathfinder with
- Acid spells for direct damage
- The Summon Monster Line for flexibility
- The Cloud Line and Create Pit Line for easy battlefield control
A fun story about the power of create pit and the uselessness of oozes. The problem with things like Verdurous Oozes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/oozes/ooze-verdurous/verdurous-ooze-greater) is that they don't have a climb speed and have terrible reflex saves. And you can already see where this is going. It's not just possible for a 3rd level create pit spell to completely remove a CR11 creature from combat, it's more than likely. Yes, that means that you have the power at level 5 to ONE SHOT an encounter 6 levels above your entire party.

God I love that spell line.
- Teleportation spells for easy travel

Transmutation is still good with
- Polymorph (nerfed from being borked in 3.5 but still useful)
- The Buff spells are great, with eagle's spendor/bull strength/etc. and stuff line stoneskin in here.
- Flying is cool too :smalltongue:

Illusion is probably the most versatile of the schools to specialize in because of the shadow subschool of spells that is has.

Divination is decent because the foresight school is hilarious with it's +half your level to initiative and always acting in surprise round power. Also, wizards are kind of expected to see the future, so this should be your thing anyway. :smallwink:

Evocation and Enchantment are still probably the worst 2, with Necromancy not being that great either.

As for feats: Same general rules. Improved Initiative is good because going first is good. Spell Focus in your favorite school is probably a good idea,.Augment Summoning is nice if you want it. Spell specialization is awesome.

[Arbane]

Scorpion's not bad - just keep it in a pocket and feed it once a day.

I will admit to a personal dislike to to Compsognathus, on the grounds that nobody should have a familiar they can't pronounce. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

Specialization:
Divination specialization with the Foresight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination/foresight)-variant gives you the strongest powers. Conjuration with the Teleportation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/conjuration/teleportation) variant is probably your second best option. Conjuration obviously still has the best spells, doubly so with Polymorphs gutted.

3.5 vs. PF Differences:
Not much changed. Your Concentration (casting stat) is better (max Int even more; Elves are great especially as are Humans) but Concentration DCs are harder at times. Your spells are the same as ever tho Glitterdust and Grease are kinda worse as well as the Necromancy rays (Conjurations still worth preparing, tho Bullseye Lantern + Pyrotechnics beats Glitterdust for blinding nowadays so Glitterdust is a second rate blind but still counters invisibility). Rays are kinda not worth it that long. Polymorphs aren't as good but everything else is more or less the same. Infinite cantrips tho not that important on 7th level. Don't forget to put skillpoints into Fly, of course.

Of note, Summon Monster spells are insanely much stronger in PF than in 3.5. You can get e.g. Shadow Devil to spam Telekinesis, or a Succubus, with SMVI whereas in 3.5 those are SMVIII-level stuff. Succubus actually has level appropriate save DCs from the list. Also, there are good outsiders that can heal on the list so the Druid's shtick of summoning healbots is now moved to Wizards. Do everything even more!

Race:
Races have variants. Elf (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf) has Fleet-Footed (take Arcane Focus you don't want the Initiative boost) and potentially Darkvision (it's not like Dazzled hurts a Wizard much anyways) as interesting options. The favored class bonus for extra uses could be interesting for the Prescience rolls of the Foresight variant too since those uses burn really fast and it's a great ability; Conjuration's Teleportation isn't necessary as often so probably not worth bothering about. It's worth noting that with Concentration off casting stat and extra HD on class and HP from Favored Class and Greater False Life (Empowered if desired), Con isn't nearly as necessary as in 3.5.

As mentioned, Favored Class bonuses probably go to HP if you don't go with extra uses (I usually go with HP; plenty of uses from Int) since in PF, magic item Int bonuses give you extra skill points so you'll have 'em to spare.

Human variants aren't that interesting, but the base chassis is as solid as ever, doubly so with +2 Int. Between Elven Magic, Immunities, Darkvision, Fleet-Footed and Dex > Con (better in PF), Elves are probably stronger but either is fine.

Build:
Straight Wizard or Wizard/Loremaster are both okay. Not much else of interest. My Arena Wizard was Wizard 10/Loremaster 1 (for UMD) for instance.

Traits:
Definitely pick Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage). Second one can be an Initiative boost or adding some skill to your class skill list (the +3 bonus is real nice). Magical Lineage goes well with e.g. Dazing Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/dazing-spell-metamagic) on big AOE (say Fireball) but in general, well, surely you can think of use for free mini Arcane Thesis, right?

Familiar:
Pick one up. Go Improved ASAP. PF Improved Familiar list is superb: Lyrakien Azata (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/azata/azata-lyrakien) and Faerie Dragon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-faerie) in particular are amazing (note that as a Sorcerer, Faerie Dragon can use Wands without UMD and Scrolls with CL checks; give it Additional Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits) for Magical Knack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack) and Practiced Spellcaster as feats if you wish to improve it through e.g. Psychic Reformation; tho Practiced Spellcaster has yet to be printed for PF so you'd have to 3.5-ify it).

Oldies like Imp and Quasit are still fine too, but Pseudodragon is mostly eclipsed by Faerie Dragon (both are telepathic, Faerie Dragon's breath > Pseudodragon's poison and Faerie Dragon is a Sorcerer to boot).

[Squirrel_Dude]

^^^
I would also recomment Tiefling or Samsaran for races to play a wizard as. Tiefling has a decent set up, but you'll want to grab a bunch of alternate racial traits with them as well.


Doru Divs are another one to look at if you're a CN/NE/CE caster.
- Detect Good/Magic constant & See in Darkness
- Invisibility at Will
- Telepathy

Imps are also nice
- Detect Good/Magic constant & See in Darkness
- Invisibility at Will


On feats: The arcane discoveries in Ultimate Magic are awesome. Here are some standouts:

Opposition Research: By completing strenuous studies, you have broken through the mental barriers that made it hard for you to prepare spells from one of your opposition schools. Select one wizard opposition school; preparing spells of this school now only requires one spell slot of the appropriate level instead of two, and you no longer have the –4 Spellcraft penalty for crafting items from that school. You must be at least a 9th-level wizard to select this discovery. I don't think I need to explain why this is awesome.


Immortality (Ex): You discover a cure for aging, and from this point forward you take no penalty to your physical ability scores from advanced age. If you are already taking such penalties, they are removed at this time. You must be at least a 20th-level wizard to select this discovery.Yeah... apparently immortality is now only a feat away.


Golem Constructor: You have learned the art and craft of creating a single type of golem (such as stone golems or iron golems). When creating a golem of this type, you count as having the Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Craft Construct feats. You must meet all other construction requirements for the golem as normal. You may select this discovery multiple times. Each time you select this discovery, it applies to a different kind of golem. You must be at least a 9th-level wizard to select this discovery.Some people like it when their familiars are low-level sorcerers and their companions are a cleric 2 levels behind them. I prefer it when my companions have magazine-fed cannons for arms. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-cannon)

[Hendel]

As mentioned above, I have seen the Create Pit line of spells totally control a battlefield. If they happen to fail the initial reflex save, they are down in a pit ten to thirty feet deep with a DC 25 Climb check needed to get out of it. At low levels, that is great. At higher levels, it is wonderful for dropping armored minions down it like crazy. That is before you add the spikes, acid, or hungry features of later spells.

I am not a huge fan of Treatmonk's guide as I find myself disagreeing with him on a lot of issues. I do think the Arcane Bond is a good route. It always feels like I have that one Ace up my sleave in case I forgot to memorize something that I end up needing. I like to go with a ring or something that is harder to get away from me than say a staff or wand (just look at Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter to see the downfalls of those items).

Familiars are a good choice, but the DM's that I know often use the R2D2 rule. R2 only gets blasted when he tries to get involved and take control of a situation. Other times he can just walk around with blaster shots going over his head (or dome) all day. Many will not worry about attacking a familiar or even have them make a saving throw, unless they are holding a wand and using UMD to activate it every round or such. So, my familars have been more for show than actually battlefield usefullness.

The basic feats are the same for the most part as in 3.5 edition. The Pit line of conjuration spells gives a use to Spell Focus Conjuration other than just as a stepping stone to Augmented Summoning. I differ from Treatmonk in that I like the Craft Item feats. A 3rd level wizard could successfully craft a Tome of Clear Thought given the cash and the time. I know that is an extreme example and many will say that it only costs a little more to buy one, but the feats are very useful. This is especially true if the DM is tight on purchasing of items, but free on time and such.

I would really suggest to NOT multi-class as I feel that Pathfinder rewards single class characters more than any other game system. Even wizards may benefit from feats they may pick up based on wizard level versus caster level. What 20th level wizard would not pick up Immortality for the price of a feat?

Just my two humble coppers!

[Eldariel]

Familiars are a good choice, but the DM's that I know often use the R2D2 rule. R2 only gets blasted when he tries to get involved and take control of a situation. Other times he can just walk around with blaster shots going over his head (or dome) all day. Many will not worry about attacking a familiar or even have them make a saving throw, unless they are holding a wand and using UMD to activate it every round or such. So, my familars have been more for show than actually battlefield usefullness.

This is mostly a matter of familiar positioning TBH; they can fight in combat just fine and if you give them Mage Armor and False Life they tend to be fairly durable too (they'll often have higher AC than you've got). Use the party so that they don't get attacked and let their Improved Evasion and high AC take care of the rest.

Keep on your person as necessary. I've got a Cat with my PFSociety Wizard (low level) and he handles most of the menial tasks.

[Hendel]

This is mostly a matter of familiar positioning TBH; they can fight in combat just fine and if you give them Mage Armor and False Life they tend to be fairly durable too (they'll often have higher AC than you've got). Use the party so that they don't get attacked and let their Improved Evasion and high AC take care of the rest.

Keep on your person as necessary. I've got a Cat with my PFSociety Wizard (low level) and he handles most of the menial tasks.
I agree with you 100%!

I sure do miss Share Spell from 3rd edition where we would both get Mage Armor, Shield, etc. Now I have to pick and choose.

I do not want to derail this thread but on the subject of familiars, I tried to have my familiar aid another on a check and my DM claimed that he was using my ranks so I could not "double-dip" like that. I felt that it seemed to be a good use of a familiar, ie a class feature of mine. Any thoughts?

[Story]

If I'm doing item creation, won't I need the Hedge Magician trait?

Anyway, I'll have to look into how PF does item crafting. It seems they changed all the XP costs to gold, and there's no more XP is a river either.


Edit: Wait, they just got rid of the XP cost, added a Spellcraft check, and that's it? It seems like there's no reason not to craft everything you can now.

[Squirrel_Dude]

It only decreases the cost by 5%. If you're really into crafting I guess its' fine, but the cost isn't the biggest problem with crafting, and never was. The problem is the time it takes you to complete your work and slowing down the campaign.

[Hendel]

If I'm doing item creation, won't I need the Hedge Magician trait?

Anyway, I'll have to look into how PF does item crafting. It seems they changed all the XP costs to gold, and there's no more XP is a river either.


Edit: Wait, they just got rid of the XP cost, added a Spellcraft check, and that's it? It seems like there's no reason not to craft everything you can now.

Yep, it is just a matter of time and money. If you are in a campaign where you always seem to be on the clock, the craft feats are not as useful. If your DM allows down time as you settle into the village or start building a keep, then they are great.

Edit: Of course you can always work on them for a couple of hours a day in camp, it just takes longer.

[Karoht]

I'm personally rather fond of these guys as familiars.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kami/kami-shikigami

They are very well built for staying out of trouble, and if they need to get into trouble, the ability to throw just about anything is awesome. Give them a bag of hammers, daggers, caltrops, alchemical goodies, whatever.
Or, in your down time prepare some of the Symbol of X spells, or even Exploding Runes. This guy can lob them into combat for you, while you still cast. Extremely handy synergy.
No, I am not recommending the Exploding Runes cheese tactics, just have the little guy throw one per round and no more. How best to detonate it becomes your puzzle to solve.

[Eldariel]

I agree with you 100%!

I sure do miss Share Spell from 3rd edition where we would both get Mage Armor, Shield, etc. Now I have to pick and choose.

I do not want to derail this thread but on the subject of familiars, I tried to have my familiar aid another on a check and my DM claimed that he was using my ranks so I could not "double-dip" like that. I felt that it seemed to be a good use of a familiar, ie a class feature of mine. Any thoughts?

It works just fine. It inherits your skill ranks; they're not the same ranks. Your familiar merely knows the same stuff you do so of course it can help you with e.g. crafting.

[Story]

One other thing is that the campaign seems to be pretty deadly and undead heavy. In the session I observed, one PC got one shotted by a charging zombie with a +1 Frost something ax, and the party later woke up surrounded by six wights.

[Blyte]

if you go item creation wizzy I suggest human for the +1 feat or dwarven for the alternate favored class option. Also be certain to take a "valet" archetype familiar.

if you are open to sorcerer I have a great blasty build you might be interested in. at 7th level it is pretty sweet.

also I highly recommend you purchase the group a battle mat and some dry erase markers. playing without one is lame, especially for a squishy and ESPECIALLY for a caster.

[Eldariel]

One other thing is that the campaign seems to be pretty deadly and undead heavy. In the session I observed, one PC got one shotted by a charging zombie with a +1 Frost something ax, and the party later woke up surrounded by six wights.

Rope Trick should help a tad. Stacking HP, high Initiative and Perception would also be fairly key; might be worth keeping Keen Senses and getting a trait to bring Perception in class. Those combined with Alertness from having Familiar nearby and Familiar's own rolls result in fairly substantial Perception even without high Wisdom.

Also, of course, Darkvision is a godsent and the party needs to bloody learn to set a guard. And yeah, a good bundle of Divination specials and battlefield control seem in order. Tho yeah, Axe Criticals can be nasty. Definitely keep Necromancy in undead-heavy environments and consider getting some Charisma; Command Undead is quite the spell.

[Squirrel_Dude]

One other thing is that the campaign seems to be pretty deadly and undead heavy. In the session I observed, one PC got one shotted by a charging zombie with a +1 Frost something ax, and the party later woke up surrounded by six wights.A charging zombie? Aren't zombies always staggered and can only take a move or standard action?

Eh, probably just one of the 5 varieties of zombies.

[Story]

They specifically can charge.


Staggered (Ex)

Zombies have poor reflexes and can only perform a single move action or standard action each round. A zombie can move up to its speed and attack in the same round as a charge action.

[Squirrel_Dude]

They specifically can charge.Excuse me while I go derp somewhere else.

[Eldariel]

A charging zombie? Aren't zombies always staggered and can only take a move or standard action?

Eh, probably just one of the 5 varieties of zombies.

You can also charge as a standard action for your movement (as opposed to twice your movement) if you're limited to a standard action each turn regardless of what you are. Has funky interaction with pounce in that you can full attack after this charge by RAW but not as a normal attack (since you don't have the full round action to full attack).

Relevant rule (originally in 3.5, transferred to PF unchanged):
Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Charge):
"If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn."

[Saidoro]

Eldariel is right about almost everything, but he's a bit off on the build. Collegiate Arcanist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/magaambyan-arcanist) is good to the point of being competitive with some of the better 3.5 PRCs(it's no "first 3 levels of incantatrix" or "red wizard with leadership", but it's definitely up there.), and three levels in Mage of the third eye (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/arclord-of-nex) will let you grab whichever of the divination or conjuration school powers you didn't start with scaling at your caster level instead of your wizard level.
Also, item creation feats are even better than they were, get some.

I would really suggest to NOT multi-class as I feel that Pathfinder rewards single class characters more than any other game system. Even wizards may benefit from feats they may pick up based on wizard level versus caster level. What 20th level wizard would not pick up Immortality for the price of a feat?
Immortality really isn't relevant to a character's party-based problem solving ability, it's great for the character but does absolutely nothing whatsoever for the player unless the rest of the party is also immortal.

If I'm doing item creation, won't I need the Hedge Magician trait?

Anyway, I'll have to look into how PF does item crafting. It seems they changed all the XP costs to gold, and there's no more XP is a river either.


Edit: Wait, they just got rid of the XP cost, added a Spellcraft check, and that's it? It seems like there's no reason not to craft everything you can now.
The main application of hedge magician is making your DM cry by crafting magic items in your spare time and then selling them for profit, and Souldrinker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/souldrinker) is a better option if you want to do that. It's a good trait, especially compared to all of the add a class skill ones but it's hardly compulsory.
You are correct about being able to craft everything, I recommend doing so if your DM gives you any amount of down time.

[Story]

Taking Collegiate Arcanist means I'll lose the 1/2lvl initiative bonus as well as the +1hp per level, right?

It looks pretty interesting (mostly a variety of spontaneous casting abilities), but it's hard to tell if it's worth it.


As for item crafting, there will be plenty of downtime during the campaign. Unfortunately, the DM ruled that you can't ignore spell prereqs, so no early tome crafting for me.

Also, we're apparently not starting with traits. Would taking Additional Traits for Hedge Magician be a good idea? I'm thinking Warrior of Old (+2 init) for the second trait.