Binders - Overpowered? Would you allow them?

[+1_to_hit]

Ok I'm looking for some advice.

I'm about to start a Forgotten Realms campaign based around the Lake of Steam and southern Faerun - a bit of travelling between the Shaar, the Jungles of Cult and Estagund.

Anyway I've already let the players know that I want this to be a game in which min/maxing and 'powergaming' is discouraged in favour of roleplaying and storytelling taking more of a central stage. Of course there will be combat and mechanics too.

I have one player who's dead set on playing a drow Binder from the Tome of Magic, but the 1d6 firebreath damage (per level!) that they pick up with their first vestage seems a little OTT. So what I wanted to know is if anyone has any experience DMing a group with a Binder, and any pitfalls or things to look out for, or if I should damn well just ban it due to my lack of experience with Tome of Magic?

Many thanks

[Ceaon]

Depends on what you think is overpowered. What are the other players going to play? Healbot or CoDzilla? Beatstick or Jack McQuick? Fireball-spammer or Batman?

Binders are generally considered versatile and powerful, yet not gamebreakingly so.

[Zombimode]

Binder are a GREAT class. Not broken in any direction.

The point of your concern:

The power has a 5 turn cooldown.
Even 20d6 is only 70 points of damage... which is rather not really out of line for level 20 characters (70 damage a turn is actually rather underwhelming).


or if I should damn well just ban it due to my lack of experience with Tome of Magic?

You shouldn't do that.
Just let your players play. If something seems fishy, tell them to explain and cite text passages. If its still unclear, read it yourself. Binder rules aren't very complex.

[CTrees]

Go through the spells section of the Player's Handbook and tally up how often you see 1d6 damage per level.

Binders are a well balanced, effective class. You'll be okay, unless the rest of the party is tremendously poorly optimized. For instance, my old group included a Rogue/Bard/Arcane Trickster - there are parties where everyone is so horrible that a Binder would be OP, but it's not normal.

[+1_to_hit]

So far the players have approached me with concept based ideas - i.e. the swordsman whos into fencing and rapier wielding, the ranger/archer that's being hunted for wronging his people, etc, just great concepts so far.

Yes I saw the every 5 rounds thing, and honestly couldn't decide if it was enough of a penalty or not.

I think I'll have to review the books in a bit more detail before I decide whether to allow it.

[Keneth]

1d6 points of damage per level is pitiful when compared to any other half-optimized damage dealer. Unless this is a campaign where everyone else is playing T4 (or lower) classes and disregarding crunch entirely, and you have zero experience in mitigating damage, it shouldn't pose any problem whatsoever. If it is... well, you may want to consider a different system. :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

The only thing Binders get that might be cause for concern are the online vestiges (Summon Monster and crafting stuff). Everything in ToM is fine.

1d6 per level is crap damage. Your average orc barbarian has 2d6+12 damage at level 1. 1d6 averages 3.5, so to catch up to 19 average damage, the Binder would need to be level 6, at which point the barbarian gets a second attack and now deals even more damage.

Edit: Oh, he wants to be a Drow? Yeah, he's not gonna be a problem.

[Greenish]

if I should damn well just ban it due to my lack of experience with Tome of Magic?Binder has some of the best fluff WotC ever managed to produce (coupled with solid crunch), so it'd be a shame to ban it due to lack of experience. After all, trying things out is how you get experience in the first place, and if you're that worried about it, you can tell your player that you may ask him to redo his character if it gets out of hand (which isn't likely, but then we don't know your group).

[Icewraith]

What's your definition of powergaming? Also, are there any books you're specifically disallowing?

Generally speaking, if you're not doing anything about wizards (or sorcerers, druids, clerics, or psions) you really shouldn't be banning other classes for balance reasons.

Even a newbie player armed with a Wizard with the right (Player's Handbook) spells can trivialize entire campaigns, sometimes by accident.

However, if two of the other players will be some sort of finessing fighter and some sort of archery character, depending on how well put together those characters are you may find that they are depressingly easy to outpace and make the binder look comparatively "overpowered."

You may also want to consider giving low-skill point classes like fighters some more skill points and/or skills to spend in the interaction department. It does depend on your game, but if you're running RP heavy and rolling sense motive and diplomacy or bluff often, your fighter types are going to become restless pretty quickly.

[Urpriest]

So far the players have approached me with concept based ideas - i.e. the swordsman whos into fencing and rapier wielding, the ranger/archer that's being hunted for wronging his people

So most of your party are going for characters that are going to be relatively weak in terms of roleplaying. In that case, you should definitely welcome a Binder, since the class comes built with interesting roleplay. Many Vestiges require specific behaviors, and the sheer fishiness of the character will make things interesting, as opposed to your other players playing unimaginative stuff like "every rapier-wielder ever" and "ranger on the run".

[JoshuaZ]

So far the players have approached me with concept based ideas - i.e. the swordsman whos into fencing and rapier wielding, the ranger/archer that's being hunted for wronging his people, etc, just great concepts so far.

Yes I saw the every 5 rounds thing, and honestly couldn't decide if it was enough of a penalty or not.

I think I'll have to review the books in a bit more detail before I decide whether to allow it.

This is going to depend a lot then one how the swordsman and ranger are building their characters. A warblade version of the ToM will be fine in a party with a binder, and a ranger will get along fine, the tier is only 1 away. The only issue with a binder is that some of the online vestiges give them a lot of versatility especially at higher levels. So what levels the game will play will also matter. But as long as you restrict to Tome of Magic vestiges only there shouldn't be any issue, and as long as one is below 15th level or so, the binder even with online vestiges should be fine.

[Psyren]

Definitely allow it. Binders have fun tricks and there's nothing gamebreaking about them in ToM at all. And they're a ton of fun for you, the DM, as well - check out all the cool things that happen if the player fails his binding check.

[Larkas]

Binders are really fine. They are not broken in any way out of the bat, and only get really strong at later levels and only with access to online vestiges. Besides, doing HP damage is not really optimal, and resilience against it can be very easily obtained by monsters (i.e.: just give them more HD).

Regardless, be very mindful of your party as a whole. If all the other players are getting Tier 5 characters (and it sounds like they are), the Binder will seem comparatively powerful. If that's the case, there might be a case for banning the Binder. But ban it for the right reasons, not the wrong ones. And keep in mind that, if you're banning the Binder, the Wizard, the Druid, the Cleric and the Sorcerer should be long gone by now, and the Bard should be the next one to go. Personally, I'd just let the T5 guys gestalt (retroactively) into NPC classes in case things start to get too underwhelming.

[Darius Kane]

Anyway I've already let the players know that I want this to be a game in which min/maxing and 'powergaming' is discouraged in favour of roleplaying and storytelling taking more of a central stage.
Powergaming and Roleplaying aren't mutually exclusive.

Binder is T3 without online vestiges. So no to first question and yes to second (in the title).

[Juntao112]

Ok I'm looking for some advice.

I'm about to start a Forgotten Realms campaign based around the Lake of Steam and southern Faerun - a bit of travelling between the Shaar, the Jungles of Cult and Estagund.

Anyway I've already let the players know that I want this to be a game in which min/maxing and 'powergaming' is discouraged in favour of roleplaying and storytelling taking more of a central stage. Of course there will be combat and mechanics too.

I have one player who's dead set on playing a drow Binder from the Tome of Magic, but the 1d6 firebreath damage (per level!) that they pick up with their first vestage seems a little OTT. So what I wanted to know is if anyone has any experience DMing a group with a Binder, and any pitfalls or things to look out for, or if I should damn well just ban it due to my lack of experience with Tome of Magic?

Many thanks
Fire Resistance is incredibly common among monsters and anyone who can cast Resist Energy.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I had a player briefly run a Binder in a relatively high-level, high-power campaign, and he was well behind the power curve in a party with a Crusader, basically-a-Wildshape-Ranger, Favored Soul and Sorcerer. You'll be fine.

[Psyren]

Powergaming and Roleplaying aren't mutually exclusive.

You know what he means though. It is possible (and not unheard of) for players to let their drive to be mechanically effective overshadow their roleplay - such as "forgetting" to roleplay the implications of a low ability score. (e.g. a Cha 6-8 party member that always takes the lead in party discussions because he has an outspoken player, or an Int 6-8 party member who solves all the puzzles because his player is figuring them out. Or a Wis 6-8 player who is always prudent and cautious in the face of danger, particularly when his player has metagamed the true difficulty of their opposition.)

[Story]

I've never played a Binder, but they definitely seem to be interesting from the RP perspective. Fail a CHA check and you have to make speeches whenever you get the floor.



(e.g. a Cha 6-8 party member that always takes the lead in party discussions because he has an outspoken player,

Low CHA doesn't mean that you can't be outspoken. It just means you'll tend to have trouble getting people to react favorably. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the know it all Wizard spouted off the solution to every problem regardless of charisma.

[MukkTB]

If you allow the Wizard, the Cleric, or the Druid, then no point to ban a weaker class from a splatbook. Its just not obvious to players less experienced with optimization how powerful those three are.

If you allow the Binder (without online vestiges) he will be tier 3. In practice that means that he'll outperform the ranger (tier 4) moderately, and be ahead of the fighter (tier 5).

Alternatively that player could decide to roll a wizard (tier 1) if told he cant be a binder. The wizard with very little optimization can make the fighter redundant, and clearly outshine the ranger. Of course a good wizard in this case wouldn't go that route. Instead of summoning minions that made the fighter redundant he'd spend his time buffing the fighter.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0
Read this if you want a tier discussion. It should clear some things up for you about what is and what is not overpowered.

Now your attitude on power gaming is not common on these boards. I'm not sure if you actively dislike optimization, or if you just like playing in a casual way without worrying too much about the game. In either case knowledge of optimization is still something valuable. Many players with your attitude are hostile to the knowledge of optimization. This prevents them for making informed calls such as the one you are considering. Imagine you were a car nut. You love cars because you love the feeling of being on the road. On the other hand you don't care much for mechanics. You're not interested in the mechanical discussions about cars, because the fun you feel is in visiting new places ect. You'd rather talk about trips you've taken than what kind of engine you have. Take the roleplaying VS powergaming idea to this automobile setting. You still should have a moderate knowledge about the working of the car. Can your tires handle this weather? Are there components showing wear you should replace? Is this car worth buying or is it a badly made dud? At the very least you can save yourself a lot of money doing basic repairs yourself instead of having to hire a mechanic every time something goes wrong. In short, the understanding of the system enhances the enjoyment of the system without ever having to strap an overcharged engine on board.

Now the other thing about roleplaying VS powergaming is this: Say you want to roleplay a skilled fighter or a powerful wizard. If you don't have the mechanics to back you up, you end up looking like a braggart, which was not the original goal. Some degree of optimization is required to meet roleplaying goals. A great deal of optimization on this board is about reaching these kinds of goals. We're not trying for ultimate cosmic power, because we already know how to get that. Its called Pun-Pun if you're interested.

[Greenish]

If you allow the Binder (without online vestiges) he will be tier 3. In practice that means that he'll outperform the ranger (tier 4) moderately, and be ahead of the fighter (tier 5).Well, conceivably, the warrior with the rapier could be a warblade or a swordsage, and the archery ranger could be a swift hunter. The latter does probably require some sophistication, but one of the major selling points of ToB is that you can just take what looks cool to you and still be effective.

[Edit]: Anyway, I wouldn't use "powergaming" and "optimization" interchangeably.

[RagnaroksChosen]

How much system mastery does the player have? Ive seen some strong builds hit my table.. Mostly do to my ignorance.. But none of them had that breathe weapon vistage, btw.

If you are uncomfortable with it, or hesitant, just tell the player if he plays one and you feel it is overpowered then he will have to re-roll.

I can tell you though, unless he knows how to build a binder he is gonna have it a bit rough until about 5th level I think. When you get to bind the heal one. Some GM's can get frustrated with that one.
I would suggest you look through the vistages and find ones you have issue with, post a list here, and we can explain how powerful they are and what you should be careful off. I can say that most of the vistages are not that bad.

Don't let him use the online ones... they are pretty bad :(

[JaronK]

Overpowered is a relative term. Binders are about high middle overall, but what's the makeup of the rest of the party? If you state that, we can tell you how well Binders stack up to that.

JaronK

[winter92]

Since you noted a focus on roleplaying, you could adopt a rule from my DM. He had no problem with the abilities of Binders (they're really not unreasonable given that they're shackled to a binder chassis), but wanted to increase the flavor of the class. Basically, he smoothed the save DCs against the vestiges (they vary from trivial to pretty hard) so that there would be more failed saves, and made their signs either harder to surpress or impossible to surpress. This seems to be a really solid approach RP-wise: the signs are a handleable handicap with disguise person and the like, and the vestige influences are mostly pretty safe and fun to roleplay - even when they would cause a major problem like a party death, they can be ignored at the cost of a -1 to everything until the vestige is expelled.

tl;dr Binder power is reasonable, but you can handicap and make them more fun in roleplay with save and sign tweaks.

[JoshuaZ]

A nice thing you can also do which reduces a binder's power slightly and makes for interesting plot hooks: They get access to some set of vestiges, but other vestiges are more obscure. So if they want to use say an online or a Dragon magazine vestige they need to go on a quest to find the seal or something similar.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Generally speaking, if you're worried about overpowered characters, fear the player more than the class.

[Mithril Leaf]

Generally speaking, if you're worried about overpowered characters, fear the player more than the class.

This is a wonderfully insightful way to phrase it. Kudos.

But yeah, Binders are good. Not broken good, but overall good. To me they feel like a nice magical counterpoint to the warblade and crusader, with large amount of ability to go all day. If you've got all warforged or necropolitans who are a Crusader (they can heal with some strikes IIRC), a Warblade, a Binder, and a Factotum (which technically has spells per day, but inspiration points refresh per encounter), you could probably have them adventure continuously. Maybe blessing of the godless for easy cheap healing.

[Jon_Dahl]

Once, I had a player who played a binder. It wasn't that bad at all. Not overpowered, but certainly not weak.

[Wings of Peace]

Lets take it to the extreme and assume a maxed roll every time at level 20 for 120 damage. Divide that by the five rounds the character won't be using that ability and you have 24 damage per round. I'm not saying your player won't use it as his main method of damage dealing, but if he does, I'd be more worried about him under performing the rest of the party than I would be of him out performing them.

[Spuddles]

So far the players have approached me with concept based ideas - i.e. the swordsman whos into fencing and rapier wielding, the ranger/archer that's being hunted for wronging his people, etc, just great concepts so far.

Yes I saw the every 5 rounds thing, and honestly couldn't decide if it was enough of a penalty or not.

I think I'll have to review the books in a bit more detail before I decide whether to allow it.

It's fire damage.
It has a reflex save for half.
It is once every 5 rounds, which changes its damage per round, at say level 10, to about 7. 7 Damage per round. Not outstanding. Even if it was every round, 10d6 (average 35, reflex for half) fire damage at level 10 isn't super stupendous. A rogue or barb should be doing about that much damage every round without trying too hard.

So if it's that one little thing that's giving you pause, it oughtn't. The most abusive stuff rarely comes with d6s.

But as a poster above put it- fear the player, not the class. If the player isn't really out to build overly powerful characters, Binder isn't going to accidentally break the game. He may overshadow the other characters if they are just rogue/fighter/ranger builds due to Binders having a pretty random, though useful, collection of abilities.

[+1_to_hit]

Thanks for all your replies. Whilst I don't have the time to respond individually to all of you - I can say that I am grateful for all your contributions.

I've read a bit more of ToM and decided to allow the Binder. You are quite right that there are lots of role-playing opportunity to be had with the class.

As for the powergaming vs roleplaying - of course I understand the two aren't mutually exclusive. But I was just expressing as I have done to my players that I want this to be a 'mature' campaign - and by mature I don't mean that there won't be humor, more that the players are just as responsible for creating an amenable gaming environment as I am. All have agreed that if they want to do lots of min/maxing and attempt to break the encounters or the game world fundamentally - then they should not join my table.

[Grod_The_Giant]

All have agreed that if they want to do lots of min/maxing and attempt to break the encounters or the game world fundamentally - then they should not join my table.
Then you should have no worries. Enjoy your campaign!