Giant Octopus and Grappling

[Mirakk]

Okay, in the entry for Giant Octopus, it says that the creature's full attack is 8 Tentacles and a bite attack.

On a successful tentacle strike, the octopus can make a free grapple check to establish a hold and can constrict.

However, the problem is, that in the grapple rules it states that a creature gets only its base attack bonus' iterative attacks as its maximum number of grapple checks it can make. There's no provisions for having multiple limbs as natural weapons.

I believe this means that the octopus can actually only make 2 of these grapple checks in a given round, and that the remaining tentacles must only bludgeon its foe. The idea here is that it would get many chances to hit, but only two chances to hold on. Additionally, as soon as you establish a grapple with Improved Grab, you effectively end your full attack and lose the rest of your tentacle attacks. If you have a remaining grapple check left over for the round I suppose you could use one more grapple-related action after that, but it effectively gimps you right there.

However, I think with this interpretation the octopus is almost more viable as a striker than a grappler, and certainly not worth the CR 8 rating.

Am I interpreting this correctly? It appears the person who wrote this was drunk.

[Fyermind]

Am I interpreting this correctly? It appears the person who wrote this was drunk.

Welcome to the monster manual. If you are the DM, you can probably fix this in the case of the Octopus. If you aren't, ask your DM about it.

[Shining Wrath]

I will be interested in what the playground makes of the Giant Octopus, because our party druid just gained the GO as a Wild Shape option, and yes, we know of Air Breathing as a 3rd level spell.

For example, we have played that the full attack of a bear completes before the Improved Grab is resolved. So, claw-claw-bite, and if any of the claws hit, grapple check.

What makes no sense to me is that the grapple rules don't allow creatures with bite to do so after a grapple. If a Dire Bear pulls you to its chest, it ought to be able to bend down and commence Operation Nom.

[hamishspence]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling


If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Activate a Magic Item
You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require spell completion activation. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item.

Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

[Urpriest]

To add to this: the Octopus gets 8 tentacle attacks, so 8 chances to grapple. The restriction on the number of grapple checks you can make in a round only applies while you are grappling, not while you are trying to establish a hold.

Once you succeed on one of the checks, you indeed lose your other attacks (I'd probably rule that attacks at the same bonus with the same weapon are simultaneous, but that would be a houserule). But your target is grappled, so you've sacrificed damage for control. You also deal an extra 2d8+6 from Constrict, since you succeeded at a grapple check.

On later turns, each successful grapple check deals tentacle damage plus 2d8+6 constrict damage. With two attacks a round from BAB that's 4d8+2d4+22, for 45 average damage if both checks succeed (check bonus +15), as opposed to 66.5 if all tentacles and bite hit with a full attack (+10/+5 to hit). You're giving up roughly a third of your potential damage for great single-target control and improved chance to hit. That's what grappling is supposed to do. Grappling isn't supposed to increase your damage, it's only niche builds like Black Blood Cultists that can manage that.

[Greenish]

If you wanted to grapple and flail around with tentacles, you could swap the octopuses feats around to get Multigrab and Improved Multicrab from Serpent Kingdoms. They reduce/remove the penalty to grapple with just one limb.

[Keld Denar]

There is the slight point of contention that the rules for grappling occur in the PHB, the book for PLAYERS. One could potentially conclude from this that there should have been alternate grappling rules for monsters in the MM or the DMG, but that those rules never made it. Notice how nearly all of the rules in the PHB seem to revolve around humanoid creatures with few-to-no natural attacks and class levels that grant BAB.

I dunno. I've looked extensively at the grapple rules and I can't help but feel like there should have been an alternate set of grapple rules printed for non-humanoids somewhere. It was probably omitted because grappling was already dang complicated.

Just my own ramblings from someone who's spent way too much time reading stat blocks and parsing the information found within.

[TuggyNE]

There is the slight point of contention that the rules for grappling occur in the PHB, the book for PLAYERS. One could potentially conclude from this that there should have been alternate grappling rules for monsters in the MM or the DMG, but that those rules never made it.

Keld. Are you suggesting that in an alternate universe, there could have been arguments combining primary source and grappling rules? :eek:

[CaladanMoonblad]

To add to this: the Octopus gets 8 tentacle attacks, so 8 chances to grapple. The restriction on the number of grapple checks you can make in a round only applies while you are grappling, not while you are trying to establish a hold.

Once you succeed on one of the checks, you indeed lose your other attacks (I'd probably rule that attacks at the same bonus with the same weapon are simultaneous, but that would be a houserule). But your target is grappled, so you've sacrificed damage for control. You also deal an extra 2d8+6 from Constrict, since you succeeded at a grapple check.

On later turns, each successful grapple check deals tentacle damage plus 2d8+6 constrict damage. With two attacks a round from BAB that's 4d8+2d4+22, for 45 average damage if both checks succeed (check bonus +15), as opposed to 66.5 if all tentacles and bite hit with a full attack (+10/+5 to hit). You're giving up roughly a third of your potential damage for great single-target control and improved chance to hit. That's what grappling is supposed to do. Grappling isn't supposed to increase your damage, it's only niche builds like Black Blood Cultists that can manage that.

I agree on the 8 attempts, but I dunno, the rest doesn't fit my conception of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea; A colossal sized creature is not likely to suddenly use ALL of its tentacles to keep grappling the same opponent. I envision a giant octopus with 3 or 4 sailors flailing around in the air, striking with cutlasses etc. The simple fact that a tentacle is covering a grappled sailor would mean that the giant octopus really could not attack the same grappled opponent with all attacks. In a way, it's better for each tentacle to act independent of the others (as implied by the individual hit points in the entry) as it pulls the grappled opponent in for a bite attack (and hopefully snack time as the giant octopus pulls off meat snack after meat snack from the PC's sailing vessel... Mmmmmm, Yum!)

Perhaps the designers did not really think through the ramifications of the grapple ability all the way through for size differentials beyond a bonus, but that does not mean GMs need to leave common sense at the door for this sort of encounter.

[hamishspence]

You can "count as not grappling" at a -20 penalty (if you have the right trait).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab

So, a giant squid can grapple an easy target with one tentacle, and keep lashing out with the rest of its tentacles, move at full speed with the target in its grip, etc.

[Fouredged Sword]

The multigrab feat line will do this for you. Or houserule the Snatch feat to work with tentacles, as really it should.

[hamishspence]

I might rule that some squid (and maybe octopi as well?) do piercing damage as well as bludgeoning with their tentacles. Colossal Squid in real life have massive hooks inside their suckers.

Not least because it allows them to attack to full effect underwater, instead of -2 to hit and half-damage.

[Urpriest]

I agree on the 8 attempts, but I dunno, the rest doesn't fit my conception of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea; A colossal sized creature is not likely to suddenly use ALL of its tentacles to keep grappling the same opponent. I envision a giant octopus with 3 or 4 sailors flailing around in the air, striking with cutlasses etc. The simple fact that a tentacle is covering a grappled sailor would mean that the giant octopus really could not attack the same grappled opponent with all attacks. In a way, it's better for each tentacle to act independent of the others (as implied by the individual hit points in the entry) as it pulls the grappled opponent in for a bite attack (and hopefully snack time as the giant octopus pulls off meat snack after meat snack from the PC's sailing vessel... Mmmmmm, Yum!)

Perhaps the designers did not really think through the ramifications of the grapple ability all the way through for size differentials beyond a bonus, but that does not mean GMs need to leave common sense at the door for this sort of encounter.



You can "count as not grappling" at a -20 penalty (if you have the right trait).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab

So, a giant squid can grapple an easy target with one tentacle, and keep lashing out with the rest of its tentacles, move at full speed with the target in its grip, etc.

As pointed out, if a monster is really humongous they can totally hold someone in only one tentacle at a -20 penalty. A Giant Octopus isn't all that big. It's only Large, really about the same size as the largest real-life Octopi, and none of them can wave around a human in one tentacle. A Giant Squid on the other hand has a +29 grapple, while a Kraken has a +44, so even at -20 your average sailor is pretty much screwed.


The multigrab feat line will do this for you. Or houserule the Snatch feat to work with tentacles, as really it should.

Snatch doesn't help with the whole "penalty for using just one bodypart to hold the opponent" thing, though, and it's pretty thoroughly designed for flying creatures.


I might rule that some squid (and maybe octopi as well?) do piercing damage as well as bludgeoning with their tentacles. Colossal Squid in real life have massive hooks inside their suckers.

Not least because it allows them to attack to full effect underwater, instead of -2 to hit and half-damage.

I would be more likely to house rule that they count as tail attacks for purposes of that table. I think there are a few squidlike creatures that get piercing on their tentacles, so I would avoid making it general.

[hamishspence]

That's why I suggested that only some types of squid should.

Giant Octopi are Large- but they can be advanced to Huge size and up to 24 HD.

And I could see some DMs advancing them even more- this octopus:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html

looks to be in the Colossal size range.


Snatch doesn't help with the whole "penalty for using just one bodypart to hold the opponent" thing, though, and it's pretty thoroughly designed for flying creatures.

Ground creatures could still have it though.

I don't think it makes much sense underwater- though I could see a creature on the surface, hurling its target up to 60 ft.

I'd probably rule it as working like Falling damage- so no damage for being hurled 10-20 ft, 1d3 nonlethal for 30 ft, 2d3 nonlethal for 40 ft, 1d6 lethal for 50 ft, 2d6 lethal for 60 ft.

[Urpriest]

That's why I suggested that only some types of squid should.

Giant Octopi are Large- but they can be advanced to Huge size and up to 24 HD.


Yup, and even at the lowest edge of Huge (13HD), the guy is already packing +26 to grapple, which is going to be hard to resist for your average sailor even with a -20 penalty.

[ddude987]

This is quite humorous to me, but just this week this exact scenario happened. I, playing a druid, turned into a giant octopus and the DM had to make up rules as to how the grappling worked. He reversed the rule that up to four people can grapple the same target to be I could grapple four people at a time. I could only use extra tentacles to attack foes I was not grappling and I was only allowed one grapple check to do constrict damage.
One question though, Urpriest mentioned with BAB you can make two grapple checks to constrict. How is this? I thought natural weapons don't get iterative???

[mattie_p]

One question though, Urpriest mentioned with BAB you can make two grapple checks to constrict. How is this? I thought natural weapons don't get iterative???

Here's how. Remember, grappling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling) is special.


If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

[Gotterdammerung]

There isn't anything in the rules that say once you succeed on a grapple you lose all of your other attacks.

Where is this coming from?

[mattie_p]

There isn't anything in the rules that say once you succeed on a grapple you lose all of your other attacks.

Where is this coming from?

Because Grappling is Special.


When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

Permitting the "Attack your Opponent" option to take the place of an attack action also permits one to "Cast a Spell" as an attack action, per the rules of grappling.

In order to not lose your full attack, one needs Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab), in order to be considered not grappling while successfully grappling an opponent.

[Gotterdammerung]

Because Grappling is Special.



Permitting the "Attack your Opponent" option to take the place of an attack action also permits one to "Cast a Spell" as an attack action, per the rules of grappling.

In order to not lose your full attack, one needs Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab), in order to be considered not grappling while successfully grappling an opponent.

The underlined phrase is modifying the previous sentences "some of these actions..."

It doesn't say anything in the grappling rules about robbing the rest of your attacks for the round. In fact, it gives you rules on how to handle the rest of your attacks in the round. You don't need any special abilities or rules to get the remainder of a full attack while in a grapple.

[hamishspence]

Problem is, the moment you succeed at a grapple, you are considered "grappled". A grappled creature has limitations.

The rules are gone into, in more detail, here:

Grappling Part 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a)
Grappling Part 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a)
Grappling Part 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050315a)
Grappling Part 4 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a)

Mind you, from Part 2, a case could be made:

When you begin your turn involved in a grapple (no matter who started the grapple), you have several options, as noted on pages 155-157 in the Player's Handbook. Here's a review, with a few additional comments.

that if you don't begin your turn grappling, your remaining attacks are still usable.

[Essence_of_War]

If you wanted to grapple and flail around with tentacles, you could swap the octopuses feats around to get Multigrab and Improved Multicrab from Serpent Kingdoms. They reduce/remove the penalty to grapple with just one limb.

Little freudian aquatic humor there, Greenish? :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Little freudian aquatic humor there, Greenish? :smalltongue:Someone, somewhere, has given That Damn Crab Multigrab and Imp. Multigrab as bonus feats. In honour of all the PCs that have met their end (two by round) in the pincers of this vicious beast, I have dubbed the feat Improved Multicrab, and so shall it ever be known henceforward! No, of course it wasn't a typo, that would mean I make errors, and that's just crazy talk.

[Mirakk]

Someone, somewhere, has given That Damn Crab Multigrab and Imp. Multigrab as bonus feats. In honour of all the PCs that have met their end (two by round) in the pincers of this vicious beast, I have dubbed the feat Improved Multicrab, and so shall it ever be known henceforward!

lol, yes!

I approve of this message.

Also, thanks for all the feedback on this, it's confirmed that I read most of it correctly, but Hamishspence brought up an excellent point about that first turn possibly resolving your attacks as normal as the remainder of a full attack action. I'd like to hear what more of you think about this in particular.