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Minwaabi
2013-03-18, 03:42 PM
I got the opportunity to play some DnD at my last house, but the guy with all the books moved. I liked the experience and the game in general and I'm thinking of actually going out and getting some guidebooks/source materials. Which do people prefer DnD 3.5 or Pathfinder or some other system? I've heard DnD 4.0 is terrible and Pathfinder seems quite a bit cheaper than DnD (I'd probably go with a PDF version). I like the high fantasy type game and I prefer a focus on RP, but a good system to back it up is important in my opinion. Eventually I would like to maybe DM as well.

Any thoughts? Suggestions?

SowZ
2013-03-18, 03:59 PM
I got the opportunity to play some DnD at my last house, but the guy with all the books moved. I liked the experience and the game in general and I'm thinking of actually going out and getting some guidebooks/source materials. Which do people prefer DnD 3.5 or Pathfinder or some other system? I've heard DnD 4.0 is terrible and Pathfinder seems quite a bit cheaper than DnD (I'd probably go with a PDF version). I like the high fantasy type game and I prefer a focus on RP, but a good system to back it up is important in my opinion. Eventually I would like to maybe DM as well.

Any thoughts? Suggestions?

D&D 4.0 isn't horrible. It does what it was designed to do well. Regardless, if you are RP heavy and liked 3.5 you may not like 4e. Its spell/ability descriptions are not open ended, so using them out of combat is tough. Not to mention few social mechanics. That may or may not matter to you, some players prefer that to be solved sans dice. I prefer 3.5, but 4e isn't terrible.

You may want to try out the 5e playtest and see how you like it. It has some crazy balance problems and odd design choices, but so does 3.5, and 5e is being worked on/fixed to rebalance some stuff. I doubt it will be balanced, but I bet it will be fun and no worse than 3.5 or PF in that regard. They have some clever mechanics and there will likely be more options/tactics in combat than most of the core classes in 3.5.

Plus, it will be the current game so more material will be in development and finding a group shouldn't be hard. And what they have so far is free.

Also worth checking out is Legend. It is based on 3.5, though heavily altered. May want to read through it and see what you think. It is pay what you want, so drop 4 bucks and pick it up in PDF if you'd like.

Yora
2013-03-18, 04:09 PM
The best reason to pick Pathfinder is to already be familiar with it or D&D 3rd Edition.

If you want to learn something new, I think it's not so great, since it has so many details and options that you don't really "need" to run a game. It's a huge amount to read and takes quite some time to learn well.

holywhippet
2013-03-18, 04:17 PM
For every system you'll get players who like it and players who don't. 4th edition has the benefit of being the most balanced of all editions - none of the classes really stand out as being better than the rest. The trade off is that all of the classes kind of work the same. Each has their at will, encounter and daily powers which is unlike earlier editions where fighters could use their abilities whenever they wanted two while spellcasters had a limited number of castings until they rested.

I've said before: the good thing about 4th edition is that it removes a lot of that crazy tricks and imbalances of 3rd edition, the bad thing about 4th edition is that it removes a lot of that crazy tricks and imbalances of 3rd edition.

Maquise
2013-03-18, 04:20 PM
What decided it for me is that all (or at least most) of Pathfinder's content can be found for free on their srd, so you don't actually have to pay in order to play, unless you want their adventure paths/campaign setting.

magwaaf
2013-03-18, 10:27 PM
pathfinder base and 3.5 mixes well. if something is in both then use the pf version.

Gavinfoxx
2013-03-19, 02:59 PM
Also worth checking out is Legend. It is based on 3.5, though heavily altered. May want to read through it and see what you think. It is pay what you want, so drop 4 bucks and pick it up in PDF if you'd like.

Second Legend. However, it is completely free... but you can still donate if y ou want.

http://www.ruleofcool.com/
http://www.ruleofcool.com/get-the-game/
https://s3.amazonaws.com/det_1/Legend.pdf <-- this is the actual link to it!
http://www.ruleofcool.com/donation-thresholds/ <-- some bonus content
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47651526/LCGb.html <-- an online character generator

I would consider Pathfinder 3.55, Trailblazer 3.60, Fantasycraft 3.70, and Legend 3.75, as far as the 'number of things fixed' goes...

Other good things to do is use mutants and masterminds 2e to write up D&D-esque characters, a la:
http://greywulf.net/2011/06/03/mutants-and-dragons-third-edition/

Fantasycraft is found here:
http://www.crafty-games.com/node/348

Trailblazer is found here:
http://badaxegames.com/

Good luck!

Again, if free content is important, LOOK UP LEGEND!! It is, as far as I can tell, superior in all ways to Pathfinder.

WhatBigTeeth
2013-03-19, 08:32 PM
I'm a big fan of the Fantasycraft game Gavinfoxx mentioned.

But between 3.5 and PF, I think Pathfinder has a lot going for it, especially for beginners:

Its free rules are more comprehensive.
Its rules are generally cleaner than 3.5's.
It has continuing support and modules/adventure paths that are usually quite entertaining.
I think that it's safe to say its core classes are more interesting than 3.5, and they're usually where new players start.


PF's major drawbacks are that it does have a lot of the same problems as 3e (casting classes are just overwhemingly more versatile than non-casting classes), and that it has a less overwhelming amount of *stuff*, especially prestige classes and a couple of the once-obscure subsystems that have gained pretty broad fan followings among the people who still talk about 3e half a decade since it's left print.

But the difference between 3e and PF isn't too big, odds are you'll be shipping contents one way or another, and I think it'd be more reasonable to use the cheaper, cleaner ruleset as a default than to shell out $50 for a 3e PHB, just to translate summoners and alchemists back into PF.

QuidEst
2013-03-21, 03:25 PM
I enjoy Pathfinder immensely. You may want to mix the official Paizo SRD and d20pfsrd.org, though. D20pfsrd is great, but when it comes time to pick your feats, there's just way too much there. Guides are also useful for figuring out how to be at least competent with a class.

OverdrivePrime
2013-03-21, 03:39 PM
I was a huge 3.5 partisan, but my game group and I have successfully moved 100% over to Pathfinder in the past year. It's a lot of fun, and with the excellent online support, it's fast and easy to quick look up a rule you're unfamiliar with.

Over and above that, I really like what Paizo is doing as a company, and I make a point to buy my stuff from them when I'm in the market for physical products.

It really depends on the kind of game you want, however. Do you guys like modern horror? Do you like Lord of the Rings style fantasy? Cyberpunk? Space battles? There are hundreds and hundreds of game systems out there, and at least six of them are pretty good.

Stubbazubba
2013-03-21, 09:23 PM
I can also say between those two, Pathfinder is probably more worth getting into for these reasons:

Easier to get into, with most all the rules for free on the SRD
Still being supported by its company, so new stuff (adventures, supplements, etc.) is still coming out, i.e., it's still exciting

As far as quality-wise, they're largely equally hit-and-miss; PF makes some half-hearted fixes in some places, but then inadvertently makes other things worse. I think they were more focused on getting it out there than making it wonderful.

However, beyond those two choices, I would also recommend Legend, as it's more clear-cut and a superior game, though it's still riddled with issues.

If you want LotR/the Hobbit-style games, I highly recommend The One Ring by Cubicle 7, it does a great job of capturing the essence of adventure stories with no overt magic.

Besides that, there are also simpler rules systems out there that might be of interest, if learning 300 pages of rules sounds a little overkill. I admit I don't know any good fantasy rules lite games that I've played to recommend, but someone here is bound to know of some good ones.

Happy gaming!

Hendel
2013-03-21, 10:11 PM
I would suggest Pathfinder.

I see it as what 4th edition should have been. It fixes some of the issues that 3.5 had and it is in general a really good system.

I would suggest you keep it simple and just start with the Core rules and maybe some of the hardbound supplement books. One issue I had with 3.5 was there were so many supplements that it was impossible for the game designers to see how everything will interact with everything else and the munchkins out there go to town.

Pathfinder has started off simple and built up slowly. Yes, they are getting a lot more supplements, but that is inevitable as that is how they make more money. Still, it is not to the scale of 3.0 and 3.5 in my opinion.

It also makes playing a single class character so much more worth it than 3.5 ever did.

evil-frosty
2013-03-21, 11:30 PM
I enjoy pathfinder a lot after being 3.5 player for most of my playing, also another point in favor of pathfinder is most of the material for it is free online at the prd which is maintained by paizo.

MirddinEmris
2013-03-21, 11:55 PM
I'll second Fantasy Craft here. It's a bit different from classical d20 games, but in a good way. It brings many possibilities to RP heavy groups (Reputation, Favors, Subplots, social mechanics etc.) and it's much more forgiving than 3.5 or PF - you can build suboptimal character here, but difference wouldn't be crippling like in 3.5 (basically, you can build character basing on fluff of the classes and feats and he'll be playable) and it's much more balanced in a way that everyone can contribute (balance here calculated on PC vs NPC principle because building NPC is different from building PC, btw NPC builder here is a gem).

On top of that, it's very customizable in many ways, from campaign creation (with this system you can play everything from LotR and SoIaF to Faerun and Great Wheel) to character and gear creation (group of 5 Human Soldiers would look more like Five Deadly Venoms and not like Clone Wars) . Also on the of-site there are point based constructors and guidelines to create your own classes and origins (species, talents and specialties) and there are plenty of fan created stuff already.

So, yeah, it's pretty much my favorite d20 system)

Stubbazubba
2013-03-22, 06:20 AM
I just looked at the preview and several reviews for Fantasy Craft, since I've heard lots and lots about it over the past few years, and I can tentatively recommend it, as well, at least, as much as someone who's just looking into things can recommend. It's closer to 3.5 than Legend is, and promises to deliver more on the holistic fantasy adventure with more depth than 3.5 does. I will definitely pick it up next time I see it for sale.

Yora
2013-03-22, 07:29 AM
I see it as what 4th edition should have been. It fixes some of the issues that 3.5 had and it is in general a really good system.

While I personally prefer Pathfinder as the best system for me that is out there, I would rather say "it fixes a few issues that 3.5e had, leaves most completely unadressed, and created a bunch of new ones".
It's not bad, but overall, it's not better and not a fix.

The difference is that Pathfinder is in print and less cluttered, because there a fewer books. And pretty much all abilities, spells, and creatures are openly accessible online even if you don't have the books.

Mighty_Chicken
2013-03-22, 09:46 AM
Pathfinder is much more flavorful than 3.5. Also, ironically Pathfinder would be more like a "pure breed third edition", while 3.5 (kind of unconciously) kept a lot of second edition in it.

While second edition is also awesome, Pathfinder feels more complete and finished to me. No, I don't mean imbalances or overcomplicated rules. Pathfinder has many of those. But the game feels smoother.

Combat maneuvers rules are better, and all classes are funnier. If there is any particular thing you dislike (for example, I don't like the new Domain powers for clerics), just rule it out.

Paizo also has better insight for funny/useful player options than Wizards ever did. Just check the Advanced Player and Advanced Race guides (which are free online)... The worst problem about 3.5 isn't its bugs, it's that some aspects of gameplay are bland. So in the most important factor - making mechanics fun - Pathfinder is superior to 3.5.

Frankly, the only reason I see to not play Pathfinder is if you're too much used to 3.5. But if you and your guys are rusty, it may be even easier to learn Pathfinder than to relearn 3.5.

People are talking so much of this Fantasy Craft thing I'm getting really curious about it :)

MirddinEmris
2013-03-22, 10:38 AM
People are talking so much of this Fantasy Craft thing I'm getting really curious about it :)

I always found it strange that FC isn't as popular as it should be :)

Frosty
2013-03-22, 10:45 AM
Pathfinder doesn't require nearly as much system mastery and optimizing-fu as 3.5, thanks to the relative lack of prestige classes and the plethora of Archetypes. You don't need to multiclass all over the place as a non-caster like you did in 3.5

Mighty_Chicken
2013-03-22, 11:48 AM
I always found it strange that FC isn't as popular as it should be :)

Maybe because the PDF costs 30 bucks? :/

Frosty, their success with using Archetypes rather than Prestiges isn't just because it's easier to keep your character powerful/relevant. It's all about adressing player option/customization with simple and fun and flavorful rules. To the majority of RPG gamers, simplicity, fun and flavor are more important than anything else.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2013-03-22, 12:53 PM
I made a blog post addressing this exact issue. You may want to check it out.

http://ultimatejosha.blogspot.ca/2013/03/getting-into-dungeons-dragons.html

MirddinEmris
2013-03-22, 01:58 PM
Maybe because the PDF costs 30 bucks? :/

Whaaaaa?.. 0_0 That's wrong, i paid a sum about this for a hardcover with a delivery.

But even in this case - still worth it, you have my word on it)))

Hendel
2013-03-22, 02:04 PM
Maybe because the PDF costs 30 bucks? :/

Frosty, their success with using Archetypes rather than Prestiges isn't just because it's easier to keep your character powerful/relevant. It's all about adressing player option/customization with simple and fun and flavorful rules. To the majority of RPG gamers, simplicity, fun and flavor are more important than anything else.

It looks like $9.99 for the Core Rulebook pdf to me at Paizo and remember that it is both Player's Handbook and DM Guide in one.

paddyfool
2013-03-22, 02:33 PM
I'll fourth (fifth?) the backing of Fantasy Craft.

Among the perks that haven't been mentioned here:
- easy NPC generation for the GM;
- good support from the build team on the forum discussion boards;
- out of the core rulebook alone you can play as things like a dragon, a troll, or a fire giant from level 1 if you want to without throwing the power balance.

The downsides:
- it's not well-known, so you'd basically all be learning it de novo (although for groups other than yours, where people may have played other games in the same lineage, e.g. Spycraft, or Star Wars Saga, that's less of an issue)
- the core rulebook is a bit big (but then, as noted, it's basically the equivalent of the PHB + DMG + MM1 in one, i.e. all you need to get started).

One flavour thing I should mention: the default option is high cinematics, and a higher degree of narrative control (e.g. "it would be fun if this throne room had a great big chandelier hanging from the ceiling") on the part of the players than in 3.5, pathfinder, 4.0 etc. (although lower than FATE). You can easily dial these options down if you want to, however.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2013-03-22, 02:45 PM
Don't do Fantasy Craft. Its more complex than it needs to be, and many of the design decisions are rather baffling. Start with Basic Fantasy, Castles & Crusades, D&D Fourth Edition, or Blood & Treasure.

paddyfool
2013-03-22, 03:03 PM
Don't do Fantasy Craft. Its more complex than it needs to be, and many of the design decisions are rather baffling.

There are one or two complexities I've been tempted to try and make simpler alternative versions of (particularly the many different damage types). But what in particular annoyed/baffled you?


Start with Basic Fantasy, Castles & Crusades, D&D Fourth Edition, or Blood & Treasure.

Personally, 4th ed would be firmly on my "avoid" list. (I just find it boring - the options are too closed-ended). I don't know the other games you list, however.

Stubbazubba
2013-03-22, 09:34 PM
It looks like $9.99 for the Core Rulebook pdf to me at Paizo and remember that it is both Player's Handbook and DM Guide in one.

He was talking about the Fantasy Craft PDF. If that was $10 I'd buy it today.

Also, I think FC's lack of popularity has more reasons -

Low Production Values - black-and-white art, seriously? In a $30 d20 product? I don't care how nice the rules are, I feel like I'm getting scammed.
Bad Marketing - I don't think Crafty Games gets the word out on, like, any of their products, they don't have much of a presence.
Lateness of the hour - This came out in 2010, which was well after the chance that a new d20 product could really ride on 3.5's coattails to popularity. Also, recession.

cavalier973
2013-03-23, 12:28 AM
I'm a big fan of D&D 4th edition Essentials. The Slayer class in "Heroes of the Fallen Lands" is really fun, and can be built to be a really effective archer-fighter.

However, for starting out, I recommend "Microlite20" or "Microlite74". The rules are 10 pages long, and are free of charge.

You could also do "Risus", for a more humorous ruleset.

MirddinEmris
2013-03-23, 03:46 AM
He was talking about the Fantasy Craft PDF. If that was $10 I'd buy it today.

Also, I think FC's lack of popularity has more reasons -

Low Production Values - black-and-white art, seriously? In a $30 d20 product? I don't care how nice the rules are, I feel like I'm getting scammed.
Bad Marketing - I don't think Crafty Games gets the word out on, like, any of their products, they don't have much of a presence.
Lateness of the hour - This came out in 2010, which was well after the chance that a new d20 product could really ride on 3.5's coattails to popularity. Also, recession.


Art may be black and white but it's a very good quality art (not like infamous dnd art, for example) that i enjoy very much.

On other points i have to agree - quality of a product without proper marketing doesn't mean much ( Fallout 1 and 2 a good examples on this )
and Paizo siezed initiative with PF when the moment was right. Still it's a system rich with options and interesting to play.


Don't do Fantasy Craft. Its more complex than it needs to be, and many of the design decisions are rather baffling. Start with Basic Fantasy, Castles & Crusades, D&D Fourth Edition, or Blood & Treasure.

To each their own, i guess. But the thing is that you can easily play FC withou most of rules, for example if you in a simple dungeon crawl i doubt that you'll find use to things like Favors, Holdings or Contacts, BUT if you need this rules (in something like urban fantasy/court intrigue game) - you wouldn't need to invent them on your own. Most of this complex rules are optional (like it said on a rulebook) and you doesn't need them to play.

Tetsubo 57
2013-03-23, 06:39 AM
I would take PF over 3.5 10 times out of ten. I simply see it as a superior system. One option though is Radiance. It is D20 based and you only need two books. The players book alone could be used. Tons of options, one book.

Yora
2013-03-23, 07:04 AM
Better? Yes.

But not by much.

Though the new system for skill points alone is a good enough reason.

MirddinEmris
2013-03-23, 01:14 PM
PF is no more than a bunch of some homebrew rules, and not even that great rules, piled together. Never understand why should i pay for something like that when there are much better ones, and they are completely free - see Frank&K tomes for example.

Yora
2013-03-23, 01:56 PM
Well, PF is also compeltely free.