Profane Vow

[Immabozo]

So, I had another thread, which has since died, where I was home brewing feats, mostly for amusement, but I did come up with one I thought was really good and wanted to get feedback on that specific one. Also if I can get help improving a few points, I would appreciate that (you'll spot the holes).

(Modeled after the 7 deadly sins)

Profane Vow

Prerequisites: any non-good

Special: after taking your first Deadly Vow, with increasing chance for every vow you take, an Underworld's Favored on his Profane Quest (described below) may show up to attempt to kill you.

Further, you must align yourself with and of the Demon Princes (The Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, Juilbex, or Yeenoghu) or one of the Underworld deities (Karaan, Ballaster, The Patient One, Scahrossar, The Xammux, or Yeathan) and gain bonuses depending on which one you align yourself with and the difficulty and potential reward for the Profane Quest granted by each will differ from one to the next.

(I need help on this point, I do not know enough about D&D lore to come up with all this)

However, the most difficult to align yourself with, with the greatest bonuses, and the greatest potentials but the greatest difficulty, is the overdeity of all nine layers of hell, the Abyss and all other lower planes. You must succeed on a DC 50 Knowledge (religion) check to discover her name and a DC 55 diplomacy check to gain her Profane Quest.

Her Profane Quest will be the most difficult, the longest, but the most potentially rewarding, granting up to (after overthrowing) taking the throne of any existing Greater Deity.

Effect: Allows one to take the Seven Deadly Vows. Also, if one has one or more of the Seven Deadly Vows, one begins to acquire bits of the Underworld's Favored template, when one has all of the Seven Deadly Vows, he or she gains the entirety of the Underworld's Favored template. This template grants:
- Fire resist 2 per Deadly vow, all Seven Deadly Vows grants immunity to fire
- Unholy or negative energy damage is reduced by 1 per Deadly Vow, all Seven Deadly Vows grants immunity to unholy or negative energy damage and instead heal 1/2 the damage
- DR 1 per Deadly Vow/holy (3 Deadly Vows grant DR 3/Holy, 6 Deadly Vows grants DR 6/holy), all Seven Deadly Vows grants DR 15/holy and +7
- SR 15 + 1 per Deadly Vow, all Seven Deadly Vows grants SR 35
- All stats +1 per Deadly Vow, all Seven Deadly Vows grants all stats +10
- +1 to attack and damage per Deadly Vow, all Seven Deadly Vows grants +10 to attack and damage
- +1 to Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive and Knowledge (religion) per Deadly Vow, all Seven Deadly Vows grants +10 to Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive and Knowledge (religion).
- All Seven Deadly Vows grants the SLA to, only once, call forth whichever of the Princes of Hell or evil Deities you have aligned yourself with, and petition to be granted a Profane Quest, the result of which may vary from person to person, but may include becoming the Lesser deity of Sin, a demon lord under the prince controlling part, or all, of his army in his name, ruling a rival demon lord's realm, etc. You must succeed on a DC 50 Diplomacy check success of which grants said quest which must consist of no less than obtaining profane artifacts for the Prince that advances his power over his plane and/or advances his position in his ever changing battle with the other princes of the other layers of hell, defeating another Underword's Favored (the more of the Seven Deadly Vows, the higher this feat is looked upon), and culminating in the overthrow and defeat of the current holder of the position or throne you wish to take. This should be a very difficult Profane Quest.

An example of the difficulty of just part of this Profane quest should be the death of the Underwold's Favored and his adventuring party, from which they must claw their way back to the material plane from the ninth layer of hell, numerically in order, to the prime material plane, accessible only from the first layer of hell where you continue on the other tasks to complete the quest.


Deadly Vow of Envy

Deadly Vow of Gluttony

Deadly Vow of Greed

Deadly Vow of Lust

Deadly Vow of Pride

Deadly Vow of Sloth

Deadly Vow of Wrath


Prerequisites: Profane vow, must have engaged and beaten into unconsciousness or submission, at least three people who have provoked you, such as a man who, according to you, is flirting with your woman, a man who has spilled his beer on you or a woman who talks back, or anyone who makes a slighting comment about your mother.

Special: If you fail a diplomacy or intimidate check by 10 or more, you must attack, even if it is using unarmed or non-lethal damage, to teach them a lesson. If you loose this fight, the effects of a Lesser Geas are put upon you to seek revenge in one fashion or another.

Effect: Gain Power attack as a bonus feat and must always power attack for greater than 3.

[Sgt. Cookie]

So, Vow of Wrath is, paraphrased from Frankie Boyle, "Power Attack with extra gay stuff". Not really worth it, to be honest. Maybe if it doubled the damage or made it easier to crit or anything to make it better than Power Attack.

Also, just so you know, only Humans and Strongheart halflings can take all the feats, perhaps if Profrane Vow gave you one of the others, it might be worth it.

[Xuldarinar]

To bring up an interesting point, what type of feat would this count as?

If we count them as general then heres something for you.

Vasharan (BoVD), a race of inherently evil humans, short of taking flaws or levels in generic classes, could not obtain all of them. Their bonus feat must be a vile feat. Other human races, many can take any feat as a bonus feat, can take all of them.

[Immabozo]

So, Vow of Wrath is, paraphrased from Frankie Boyle, "Power Attack with extra gay stuff". Not really worth it, to be honest. Maybe if it doubled the damage or made it easier to crit or anything to make it better than Power Attack.

Also, just so you know, only Humans and Strongheart halflings can take all the feats, perhaps if Profrane Vow gave you one of the others, it might be worth it.

Well, each feat is also +2 fire resist, reduce negative and unholy damage by 1, SR 16 at the first vow, +1 after that, all stats +1, +1 DR/holy, +1 attack and damage, +1 to diplomacy, bluff, sense motive and knowledge (religion) with a but jump in all the bonuses from vow 6 to 7. THAT is worth a feat.

So, essentially, Vow of Wrath is -1 to hit, +5 damage, DR 1/holy, +skills, SR 16 (assuming it's the first one) Fire resist 2, reduce negative energy or unholy damage by 1.

With setting you up for getting all that much better, AND you have Power Attack to boot. It is totally a worth a feat.


To bring up an interesting point, what type of feat would this count as?

If we count them as general then heres something for you.

Vasharan (BoVD), a race of inherently evil humans, short of taking flaws or levels in generic classes, could not obtain all of them. Their bonus feat must be a vile feat. Other human races, many can take any feat as a bonus feat, can take all of them.

It is supposed to be an epic level template. Can you imagine all those bonuses on a character at level 15? The character would be disgusting. DR 15, +10 all abilities, +10 to hit and damage, SR 35, immunity to fire, immunity to and healed by unholy and negative energy damage, +10 to bluff, diplomacy, sense motive and knowledge (religion), unless I am very off on my estimation, that is all set for an epic level campaign.

[Xuldarinar]

It is supposed to be an epic level template. Can you imagine all those bonuses on a character at level 15? The character would be disgusting. DR 15, +10 all abilities, +10 to hit and damage, SR 35, immunity to fire, immunity to and healed by unholy and negative energy damage, +10 to bluff, diplomacy, sense motive and knowledge (religion), unless I am very off on my estimation, that is all set for an epic level campaign.

Normally, it would require epic levels to take all of them. your talking about 18th level for all, if someone gains a bonus feat at 1st level. If I wanted to take all of them though, fast:

Race: Human (or one of a couple other races)
Class: Warrior 4 or Expert 4
Flaws: any 2


Human grants 1 bonus feat, as do some other races. Both the Warrior and Expert classes grant bonus feats, in this case at 1st, 2nd, and 4th.
You may start out with up to 2 flaws, gaining a bonus feat for each.
And you gain a feat at 1st and 3rd level.

Feats known at each level
1st: 5
2nd: 6
3rd: 7
4th: 8


For this with spell casting

Race: Human
Class: Spellcaster (arcane or divine) 6
Flaws: any 2

Feats known at each level

1st: 5
2nd:5
3rd: 6
4th: 6
5th: 7
6th: 8



Without flaws

Race: Human
Class: Warrior 6

Feats at each level

1st: 3
2nd: 4
3rd: 5
4th: 6
5th: 6
6th: 8

Without flaws, with spell casting

Race: Human
Class: Spellcaster (Arcane or Divine) 8


Feats at each level:

1st: 3
2nd: 3
3rd: 4
4th: 5
6th: 7
8th: 7
9th: 8


Ignoring generic classes: With flaws and racial bonus feat (level 12), With flaws but without racial bonus feat (level 15). Without flaws but with racial bonus feat (level 18), Without either (level 21).



To cut out any abuse, perhaps add the following to the feats:

Special: You may not take this feat as a bonus feat.
or
Add the [Epic] Descriptor to the feats.

Either of these would guarantee the full effect at least being for epic levels only. Though, another thought for a thing to add is:

Special: After taking one of these feats, you may exchange a previously gained feat for another Deadly Vow.



Also. How about a feat, to go with the theme, that reflects the concept of the Unforgivable Sin?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Well, each feat is also +2 fire resist, reduce negative and unholy damage by 1, SR 16 at the first vow, +1 after that, all stats +1, +1 DR/holy, +1 attack and damage, +1 to diplomacy, bluff, sense motive and knowledge (religion) with a but jump in all the bonuses from vow 6 to 7. THAT is worth a feat.

In fact it's worth far more than a feat (the stats from one feat alone are equal to 6 epic feats for the ability bonuses alone, yet grant far more than that since they have tons of other abilities), and is far more complicated than any feat has a right to be. I really thing that putting these in feats is compressing far to much into the feat system: it wasn't designed to support this sort of modular system, nor this level of interconnected power.

I won't comment more at this point in time because you're attempting to use the feat subsystem in a way it isn't intended to be used. I think you'd have better luck either making your own subsystem for these vows, turning them into a Prestige Class of sorts, or making sure that each feat is self-contained, and can be taken without the "primer" feat Profane Vow.

If you're stuck on making them feats, I'd mimic the feats from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Make Profane Vow similar to Sacred Vow, and then make the other feats require that. Don't make them increase in strength based on how many you have: the only feats that do that do so with small, subtle bonuses, and even that isn't a particularly good design trend for feats.

[Immabozo]

Normally, it would require epic levels to take all of them. your talking about 18th level for all, if someone gains a bonus feat at 1st level. If I wanted to take all of them though, fast:

...

Ignoring generic classes: With flaws and racial bonus feat (level 12), With flaws but without racial bonus feat (level 15). Without flaws but with racial bonus feat (level 18), Without either (level 21).

To cut out any abuse, perhaps add the following to the feats:

Special: You may not take this feat as a bonus feat.
or
Add the [Epic] Descriptor to the feats.

Either of these would guarantee the full effect at least being for epic levels only. Though, another thought for a thing to add is:

Special: After taking one of these feats, you may exchange a previously gained feat for another Deadly Vow.

Also. How about a feat, to go with the theme, that reflects the concept of the Unforgivable Sin?

I like the Unforgivable Sin idea. I'll have to work on something like that.

I saw the abuse you are talking about, but wasn't sure how to fix it. However, I think Djinn_in_Tonic is right


In fact it's worth far more than a feat (the stats from one feat alone are equal to 6 epic feats for the ability bonuses alone, yet grant far more than that since they have tons of other abilities), and is far more complicated than any feat has a right to be. I really thing that putting these in feats is compressing far to much into the feat system: it wasn't designed to support this sort of modular system, nor this level of interconnected power.

I won't comment more at this point in time because you're attempting to use the feat subsystem in a way it isn't intended to be used. I think you'd have better luck either making your own subsystem for these vows, turning them into a Prestige Class of sorts, or making sure that each feat is self-contained, and can be taken without the "primer" feat Profane Vow.

If you're stuck on making them feats, I'd mimic the feats from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Make Profane Vow similar to Sacred Vow, and then make the other feats require that. Don't make them increase in strength based on how many you have: the only feats that do that do so with small, subtle bonuses, and even that isn't a particularly good design trend for feats.

I am curious about the subsystem, how would you work something like that?

I think you are right on the Prestige Class. Perhaps the bonuses should go to the PrC and then completely re-do the Profane vow and Seven Deadly Vows. I see what you are saying about the "bonuses for number of feats you have" thing. after typing that out, it is far too strong. I do like the PrC idea.