9th Level Spell Trick?

[Zelkon]

I've heard about this, specifically in discussions of the Mystic Thurge. What's the deal? How does it work?

[Urpriest]

I've never heard that particular phrase before. What's the context?

[mattie_p]

Could it be something like the cheat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272096)?

[Zelkon]

No, the trick where you can get higher spell slots at level 1, going all the way up to nine. This way, you can qualify for MT at level 3 with wizard1/cleric1 and this trick. I've heard it brought up a good deal before, and might have even seen an explanation awhile back.

[Aegis013]

I know it has something to do with Naenhoon Illumians, but honestly, I don't know the details of this particular trick. It's mentioned in this Theurge handbook. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224999)

[Raimun]

I've heard of it but I can't remember it. I just didn't pay it much attention since I don't think that any GM would allow it to work.

I mean seriously, the whole idea is ridiculous.

[Urpriest]

No, the trick where you can get higher spell slots at level 1, going all the way up to nine. This way, you can qualify for MT at level 3 with wizard1/cleric1 and this trick. I've heard it brought up a good deal before, and might have even seen an explanation awhile back.

There are lots of different ways to do things like that. Usually, it involves Versatile Spellcaster, coupled with some way to Heighten spells. If you search for Versatile Elven Generalist you'll find a particularly egregious example. The techniques use some combination of Versatile Spellcaster to combine lower level slots into higher level ones, Heighten to actually have higher level spells one can cast (namely Heightened lower level spells), and various Heighten-boosters like Earth Spell and Sanctum Spell and sources of unconditional spells known like Domain Wizard and the Necrotic Cyst line to gain actual higher level spells known. It all depends how the relevant people read the text involved.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are plenty of ways to get early entry into mystic theurge, but don't forget you need the max skill ranks of a 3rd level character to qualify.

Spells:

Illumian with the Krau sigil and the feat Improved Sigil: Krau makes two of your 1st level spells count as 2nd level spells (one for each class). The Krau sigil also fixes your caster levels similar to Practiced Spellcaster, for both classes.
Sanctum Spell is a +0 spell slot metamagic feat that makes the affected spell count as one level higher per Heighten Spell, but only inside your designated sanctum. It has the reverse effect on spells cast with it outside your sanctum, without affecting the spell slot to cast it, so you could spend a 4th level slot to cast a 4th level spell that counts as a 3rd level spell for DCs and whether or not a Lesser Metamagic Rod can affect it and whether it can be put in a Spell Storing weapon.
Earth Spell is a feat in RoS that requires Earth Sense and Heighten Spell, and makes it so your Heightened spells are counted as +1 spell level higher and increases their caster level, but only when you're standing on stone or unworked dirt.
There are probably a dozen more, but the above are the most noteworthy due to their ironclad RAW support and ease of use.


Skill ranks:
Take a Minor Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) (or intermediate/major if desired), and take your Bloodline level(s) after your 1st character level and before your 2nd character level. A 1st level character needs to gain 1,000 xp to gain a level. When you gain that level, you get a bloodline level which does not actually increase your character level, so you still count as a 1st level character. You need another 1,000 xp to gain your next level, if that one is also a bloodline level then you can repeat that as often as necessary. This way every bloodline level only costs you 1,000 xp instead of an entire character level, and each bloodline level increases your max skill ranks as though it was a character level, plus it increases your caster level and a few other things.

Cleric 1/ Bloodline 1/ Wizard 1 can go into Mystic Theurge when you combine it with one of the above early entry methods, as long as you use your Wizard skill points to finish getting all of its required skill ranks. That bloodline level doesn't count toward your character level, so at Mystic Theurge 1 you'll be a 3rd level character. You'll sometimes be a level behind the rest of the party, so you'll get more xp per encounter and eventually that 1,000 xp deficit will disappear.

[Zelkon]

I know it has something to do with Naenhoon Illumians, but honestly, I don't know the details of this particular trick. It's mentioned in this Theurge handbook. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224999)

I had the same luck.

[Pickford]

Could it be something like the cheat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272096)?

Sha'ir are Arcane casters, that doesn't work at all.

Zelkon: There is no way to gain higher spell slots than class progression. You can make spells function at higher levels (Effective spell level), but this garners no spell slots.

[Spuddles]

Sha'ir are Arcane casters, that doesn't work at all.

Zelkon: There is no way to gain higher spell slots than class progression. You can make spells function at higher levels (Effective spell level), but this garners no spell slots.

Extra Slot shenanigans can do it. If you can cast a 2nd level spell as a 4th using Sanctum Spell & Earth Spell, you can pick up Extra Slot for a 3rd level spell slot, despite not having any actual 3rd level slots. You can now use that 3rd level slot to cast 5th level spells, get Extra Slot again, all the way up to 9ths.

Really feat intensive, though.

[TuggyNE]

Really feat intensive, though.

That's why WotC, in their infinite wisdom, published heroics and embrace/shun the dark chaos.

[Darrin]

Elven Generalist/Domain Wizard is the "trick" I believe you're referring to. I'm trying to track down who came up with it first, but not having much luck.

Start with an elf wizard, take the Elven Generalist racial substitution level, and the Domain Wizard ACF from Unearthed Arcana.

[Note: There is some argument over whether this is possible. Elven Generalist has a requirement that says "This substitution feature replaces the standard wizard's ability to specialize in a school of magic." Domain Wizard says you "cannot also be a specialist wizard". This essentially boils down to "you trade away your ability to specialize" and "you must not be a specialist". Some people argue that you can only trade away your ability to specialize once, and thus you can't become a Domain Wizard. Others argue that based on the RAW wording, these are two different requirements and thus compatible. It all comes down to a "DM's Call" wether or not they allow this (and most sane DMs won't).]

You need two feats: Versatile Spellcaster, and something that will let you cast spontaneous spells, such as Alacritous Cogitation or Magical Training (Sorcerer). Since elves only get one feat to start with, you need a Flaw to get a second feat at 1st level. Again, this is subject to DM Fiat.

Once you have all that, you can start the chain:

1) Versatile Spellcaster allows you to trade two of your 1st level spell slots for the ability to cast a 2nd level spell you know. Once you can cast 2nd level spells, Domain Wizard gives you a 2nd level spell known, and a 2nd level spell slot to prepare it in. Elven Generalist also gives you a "floating slot" of the highest spell level you can cast, in this case a 2nd level spell you could prepare.

2) Take your 2nd level spell slots from Domain Wizard and Elven Generalist and use Versatile Spellcaster to trade them for a 3rd level spell. Domain wizard provides you with a 3rd level spell known, and a 3rd level slot to prepare a spell. Since you can now cast 3rd level spells, the Elven Generalist slot reappears as a 3rd level spell slot.

3) Rinse and repeat until you have two 9th level spell slots. Since you presumably only know one 9th level spell (from your domain), you can prepare it twice. (Bloodline feats or Heighten Spell might expand your spell selection somewhat.)

[Note: The wording on when these spell slots become available is extremely murky, and hinges on the interpretation that Versatile Spellcaster triggers all the benefits associated with the ability to cast a higher level of spells. Most sane DMs will probably argue that only gaining wizard class levels gives you the ability to cast higher level spells as per the "Spells Per Day" table, as well as the benefits that go along with that. I also have some doubts that the Generalist slot is able to appear and be traded away multiple times.]

As you can see, there are multiple arguments on why this should or shouldn't work, but it all boils down to what kind of rules shenanigans your DM is comfortable with.

[AmberVael]

Elven Generalist/Domain Wizard is the "trick" I believe you're referring to. I'm trying to track down who came up with it first, but not having much luck.

I think it may have been dextercorvia- at the very least, he's the first person I saw use it.

[Callin]

all of that hinges on IF you actually know a spell even though you are too low of a level to cast it.

I as a DM would say no. Even as a player and loving to do this I dont believe that.

[Darrin]

I think it may have been dextercorvia- at the very least, he's the first person I saw use it.

Ah, here's dextercorvia's post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9) in January 2011. I'll see if I can find any evidence it was mentioned earlier than that. If not... then I'd like to propose we call this trick "Dexter's Ladder".

[Urpriest]

all of that hinges on IF you actually know a spell even though you are too low of a level to cast it.

I as a DM would say no. Even as a player and loving to do this I dont believe that.

You aren't too low level to cast it, though. You can cast spells of that level (via Heighten or whatever), so clearly you are of high enough level to cast spells of that level.


Ah, here's dextercorvia's post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9) in January 2011. I'll see if I can find any evidence it was mentioned earlier than that. If not... then I'd like to propose we call this trick "Dexter's Ladder".

I think he called it Jacob's Ladder, actually.

[Darrin]

I think he called it Jacob's Ladder, actually.

Nope. That's a term Doc Roc used with Dragonsblood Pool, from this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137447) here, trick #6 in the first spoiler.

[Urpriest]

Nope. That's a term Doc Roc used with Dragonsblood Pool, from this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137447) here, trick #6 in the first spoiler.

Hmm, interesting. I suppose I associated it with the old ToS era, without knowing where precisely it came from.

[Callin]

You aren't too low level to cast it, though. You can cast spells of that level (via Heighten or whatever), so clearly you are of high enough level to cast spells of that level.


Huh? Explain Please Somebody.


My Argument is here.

Versatile Spellcaster

( Races of the Dragon, p. 101)

[General]

You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher.
Prerequisite
Ability to spontaneously cast spells,
Benefit
You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.


A Domain Wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she is able to cast it.

You dont "know" it before you are able to cast that level of spell. So you cant use Versatile Spellcaster to prepare the spell to even start the loop.

[AmberVael]

Huh? Explain Please Somebody.

You dont "know" it before you are able to cast that level of spell. So you cant use Versatile Spellcaster to prepare the spell to even start the loop.

The trick does not rely on Domain Wizard to get its initial higher level spells. It uses Versatile Caster + Heighten Spell to cast spells of a higher level, which then grants them the new Domain Wizard spell level, which (when combined with Elven Generalist) gives them enough spells per day to raise their top spell level again with the same trick, which grants them another Domain Wizard spell level...

And so on straight up to level 9 spells.


Edit: I believe there may be other methods than using Heighten spell, but I am pretty sure that the original trick included it, because it is a lot more solid that way.

[Urpriest]

Huh? Explain Please Somebody.


My Argument is here.




You dont "know" it before you are able to cast that level of spell. So you cant use Versatile Spellcaster to prepare the spell to even start the loop.

Hmm...Darrin's explanation of the trick lacks Heighten. That version probably assumes that if your ability to cast 2nd level spells is distinct from whether or not you know any 2nd level spells that you might cast. If you find that dubious, take a flaw and pick up Heighten. You now can use Versatile Spellcaster to cast 2nd level spells since you know first level spells and can use Heighten to make them into 2nd level spells. So you can cast 2nd level spells, which starts the ladder.

[Callin]

So the wiz prepares his spells for the day, 2 first level spell slots to prepare 1 first level spell heightened to 2nd level, since he already knows it he can do that through Versatile Spellcaster.

Then initiate the loop?

that way makes sense and was left out. i was just goin off of what was there.

[Pickford]

Extra Slot shenanigans can do it. If you can cast a 2nd level spell as a 4th using Sanctum Spell & Earth Spell, you can pick up Extra Slot for a 3rd level spell slot, despite not having any actual 3rd level slots. You can now use that 3rd level slot to cast 5th level spells, get Extra Slot again, all the way up to 9ths.

Really feat intensive, though.

And really impossible even if you accepted Sanctum or Earth Spell as actually changing a spell. Feats are gained at level up.

Neither Sanctum nor Earth spell actually change the base spell however. If applied to a 1st level spell, you can now cast a 1st level spell that acts as a 2nd level spell, you can't cast a 2nd level spell. So you don't know a higher level spell ever, you always know the base spell and are modifying it 'act' higher. There's a world of difference there.

[HunterOfJello]

The trick is further explained in the thread where it was proposed. I originally disagreed with how the original trick was set up, but later changed my opinion on further examination. However, there were multiple other issues with the entire thing. I'm not going to get into it all and I don't remember all of it, but it's all in the locked thread out there somewhere.

I tried searching for the thread, but couldn't find it. I posted in the thread multiple times, but IIRC it got past 10 pages and got into people being rude, so it was eventually locked down.

[Darrin]

Hmm...Darrin's explanation of the trick lacks Heighten.

dextercorvia's original post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9) did not include Heighten. He addresses this specifically with, "Fortunately you learn your domain spells as soon as you would be able to cast them."

From the text of Domain Wizard:

"A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it."

Conjuration domain is tempting, which would allow you to cast gate. Find some way to increase your caster level by at least +1 (Coatl Feather?), and you can call a mirror mephit (CL2 = control up to 4HD). Tell it to use its simulacrum SLA to create an efreet, then command the efreet to follow all of your instructions as if you were its creator. Then use one of your three wishes to get back the 1000 XP you just lost for casting gate. Use the other two to start chain-gating Solars or ascend to Pun-Pun or whatever.