Building a Bahamut Themed PC using the Bahamut-Themed PrCs [3.5 FR]

[Tokuhara]

I know that Vassal of Bahamut and Platinum Knight aren't known for their power or optimization options, but I am interested in playing a purist Bahamut-Themed PC with as much Bahamut as can be jammed into the build as humanly possible.

So here's the rules, and the prerequisites:

Race: Must include Dragonborn of Bahamut. IDC which of the three aspects are used, but my thing is that the "base race" should have some good options available to it. No LA if at all possible.

Class: Some form of dragon theme that has to be somewhat viable at level 3. Must include both Vassal and Platinum Knight. Try to use at least one of the Dragon-themed ACFs for it.

Houserules: We are allowed anything from 3.5, 3.0, and Dragon material are allowed. Races are proficient with any racial weapons (Orcs gain orc shotput, Goliaths get their great crossbows, etc.). We are allowed 2 flaws and 2 traits and have a 28 PB from all 8's.

Setting: We are starting off in the Far North, heading to the furthest north point on the map to save some priest.

[CIDE]

The three best options I've personally seen for Dragonborn are the water orc, Mongrelfolk, and Warforged (or incarnated warforged for shenanigans with stacking addtional templates on). I don't know if there's more out there but those three seemed to have the best synergy and the most bang for your buck.

I'm not familiar enough with the two Bahamut themed classes to help you out beyond that though.

[Tokuhara]

As for Dragonborn, I know that the norm is Water Orc/Mongrelfolk, but neither of these strike me as "Bahamut's Personal Bad Mutha."

I had almost thought Skarn from Incarnum, seeing as how they are a half a step from Dragonborn as it is.

[Rethmar]

Lesser Aasimar Dragonborn Paladin/Cleric or Crusader seems fun. Combination of celestial and dragonborn could result in perhaps silver or gold scales.

Stat wise it'd just be an overall +2 Wis, Cha, and Con, with a -2 to Dex.

Perhaps choose the Heart aspect for the breath weapon, not out of optimization, just for the idea. Though I suppose if you wanted to fly, the Platinum Armor would be light enough to allow you to do so.

Dragonborn paladin substitution acf, Rebuke Dragons cleric acf are both themed to fit, though not super good.

Overall, I think it has a lot of fluff for holy dragon, so maybe his/her life dream is to become one of the seven protectors of Bahamut, presuming an opening became available.

[Nightgaun7]

If you don't want a Water Orc, try using one of the Races of the Dragon subspecies.

[Tokuhara]

Lesser Aasimar Dragonborn Paladin/Cleric or Crusader seems fun. Combination of celestial and dragonborn could result in perhaps silver or gold scales.

Stat wise it'd just be an overall +2 Wis, Cha, and Con, with a -2 to Dex.

Perhaps choose the Heart aspect for the breath weapon, not out of optimization, just for the idea. Though I suppose if you wanted to fly, the Platinum Armor would be light enough to allow you to do so.

Dragonborn paladin substitution acf, Rebuke Dragons cleric acf are both themed to fit, though not super good.

Overall, I think it has a lot of fluff for holy dragon, so maybe his/her life dream is to become one of the seven protectors of Bahamut, presuming an opening became available.

Hmmm.... Lesser Aasimar Dragonborn (Likely either Heart or Mind). Kinda sexy. I just imagine a Dragonborn with scales of white gold (for those not in the know, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_gold#White_gold) is white gold, made by alloying gold with a "white" metal, like Nickle or Platinum. Speaking of which, why isn't there a Nickle Dragon, or for that matter a Zinc Dragon? What about a Chromium. Explain please???)

I'm iffy on Paladin/Cleric or Crusader (though if my arm were twisted, I'd lean to Crusader) because of pure and honest casting loss (Vassal has its own spells available to it.), though I see why this is a good choice.

And more/less, I was aiming for the fluff of the Platinum Cadre (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Platinum_Cadre), who are ultra-BA servants of Bahamut. These guys make Tiamat's talons soil their armor in fear, and make women want them and men wish they were them. These guys make the Purple Dragon Knights look like wimps.

[LeshLush]

I've sometimes thought about using Platinum Knight to build a gish based around Paladin and either Sorcerer or Shugenja. It wouldn't be optimized, but it might be fun.

[Tokuhara]

Hence me wanting to be as Bahamut-y as possible. Basically, if the fluff isn't in most of the crunch, I'm not doing it right.

[Waker]

Speaking of which, why isn't there a Nickle Dragon, or for that matter a Zinc Dragon? What about a Chromium. Explain please???)

Dragon 356 introduced Chromium, Cobalt, Iron, Nickel and Tungsten Dragons.

[Vaz]

Dragonborn Raptoran Dragonfire Adept - Breath Weapon, Flight, Darkvision amd Blindsense.

I'd look at it like DFA 5/Vassal 5/Platinum 10

[Tokuhara]

Dragonborn Raptoran Dragonfire Adept - Breath Weapon, Flight, Darkvision and Blindsense.

I'd look at it like DFA 5/Vassal 5/Platinum 10

Slight issue: Vassal requires +7 BAB.

So if you wanted to do this with a Paladin base, it'd look like this:

Lesser Aasimar Dragonborn (Heart or Mind) Dragonborn Paladin 7 (taking levels 4&5, skipping 1)/Vassal 5/Platinum 5/Dracolyte 3

as just the bare bones. The issue lies in the fact that Vassal's earliest entry is 8th level and it's exalted.

[Gwendol]

Dragonborn silverbrow human bard (with dragonfire inspiration)/paladin/etc

[Tokuhara]

Dragonborn silverbrow human bard (with dragonfire inspiration)/paladin/etc

Bardadin is limited as well (+7 BAB prerequisite for Vassal)

[Gwendol]

No matter, you can still get IC through "From smite to song" and the purple dragon knight PrC (try to get it to stack with paladin, for some reason that was lost in the update).

[Vaz]

Slight issue: Vassal requires +7 BAB.

So if you wanted to do this with a Paladin base, it'd look like this:

Lesser Aasimar Dragonborn (Heart or Mind) Dragonborn Paladin 7 (taking levels 4&5, skipping 1)/Vassal 5/Platinum 5/Dracolyte 3

as just the bare bones. The issue lies in the fact that Vassal's earliest entry is 8th level and it's exalted.

In that regards... Yeah, don't bother. Unless you can get 5/5 Casting at 16th-20th then don't bother. It's bad enough it doesn't progress existing casting, and that's one of the Vassal's Strengths. The two are fairly counter-intuitive, and Bahamut himself would look down from up high at the character, and remove the Dragonborn Template for being so utterly useless.

[Tokuhara]

In that regards... Yeah, don't bother. Unless you can get 5/5 Casting at 16th-20th then don't bother. It's bad enough it doesn't progress existing casting, and that's one of the Vassal's Strengths. The two are fairly counter-intuitive, and Bahamut himself would look down from up high at the character, and remove the Dragonborn Template for being so utterly useless.

Well, here's what each gets that's kinda hot:

Vassal: Platinum Armor (a chainmail shirt that gets +8 AC with everything else chain shirts get? Awesome!), Shared Trove (money as a class feature??? Kinda sexy), Bonus feats (slightly limited list, but they're free. Can't Complain), Spellcasting (again, limited, but useful), Proficiencies (yes, Vassal gives you the same proficiencies as Paladin 1)

Platinum Knight: Platinum Scales (free natural armor. Not bad really), Bahamut's Grace (Hi. Free Second Divine Grace that explicitly stacks.), advances spellcasting (limitedly, but hey. If you are a paladin, it's nice)

Dracolyte: Prestige Domain (need I say more?), 10/10 casting advance (umm... Why do no optimizers use this?)

[Vaz]

1; Armour can be got by other means. You either want the High AC, in which case, you don't build for having high Dexterity, or you want High Dex, in which case you don't get Armour.

2; Money, it's good it's based off Character Level, I like that. However, it takes up valuable time to get to that level; with ECL8 entry, you gain 10*100 PP, 12*100 PP, and 15*100 PP; which cannot be spent frivolously. This is GM adjudication, but it does say upgrading your kit is fine. However; 37000 GP is not exactly a huge amount. It's 1 magic item, or by that stage, a +1 enchantment on your weapon. Not to mention finding someone who'll take that denomination, OR someone who'll trade that denomination for a lesser amount without the exchange rate killing you.

3; If you want Bonus Feats, a Fighter does it for you.

4; Spellcasting is the classes strength. However, it's only a half caster, and its late access means worthwhile Divine casting advancement classes are typically of lesser use than if you took them straight away. It's no Ur-Priest.

5; Proficiencies; nothing wonderful, as non-standard entry is later access for you, and consequently not in the design brief for needing the proficiencies.

6. Scales, a stackable NAB is good.

7. Divine Grace x2, sure it's good.

8. 1/2 casting progression is useless combined with the late entry.

9. Requiring two useless feats (Requiring Charisma), 4 unrelated Skills which don't synergise particularly well (which to optimize require Con, Int and Charisma), a valuable rank wasted in Speak Language (for optimization), a 3rd useless bonus feat, a Wyrmling Dragon that will not increase in power during the length of a typical campaign, immunity to Magical Sleep and Paralysis is good, but far too late on, gains senses far too late on. A summon adult dragon as a capstone? That's fairly decent, but Dragon Ally Greater does the same, but better (up to 27 HD, rather than 20ish); at the cost of XP, but that's easily got around by the levels you're participating at.

[Fouredged Sword]

Cleric 4 / Crusader 2 / PRC paladin 2 gets you to BAB +7.
5th level cleric casting and 2nd level maneuvers / stances, divine grace, lay on hands, turn undead, and a mount you can upgrade to a drakensteed through a feat.

Now this sounds like a good baseline. Lesser Aasimar Dragonborn with the mind aspect sounds good.

If you can get your turning up to level 8 (you have 6 native) you should take the fire domain. This will let you have a pair of wyrmling brass dragons to follow you around through rebuking (they have the fire subtype). If you can get it to 10, also take the earth domain for a pair of copper wyrmlings as well.

They can use magic items and spell activation items very well as they can bypass most UMD as they have native spellcasting from the sorcerer/wiz list. Give them some nice wands or scrolls. They can also fetch, roll over, and light things on fire. Very nice pets. Between the two you have willsave vs sleep or fortitude vs slow. Low save DC, but having them lean out of your backpack and spray an area is nice for discouraging mooks or fishing for a bad save.

There. You are a holy dragon, who worships a dragon, riding a dragon horse, with four dragon minions.

[Tokuhara]

1; Armour can be got by other means. You either want the High AC, in which case, you don't build for having high Dexterity, or you want High Dex, in which case you don't get Armour.

2; Money, it's good it's based off Character Level, I like that. However, it takes up valuable time to get to that level; with ECL8 entry, you gain 10*100 PP, 12*100 PP, and 15*100 PP; which cannot be spent frivolously. This is GM adjudication, but it does say upgrading your kit is fine. However; 37000 GP is not exactly a huge amount. It's 1 magic item, or by that stage, a +1 enchantment on your weapon. Not to mention finding someone who'll take that denomination, OR someone who'll trade that denomination for a lesser amount without the exchange rate killing you.

3; If you want Bonus Feats, a Fighter does it for you.

4; Spellcasting is the classes strength. However, it's only a half caster, and its late access means worthwhile Divine casting advancement classes are typically of lesser use than if you took them straight away. It's no Ur-Priest.

5; Proficiencies; nothing wonderful, as non-standard entry is later access for you, and consequently not in the design brief for needing the proficiencies.

6. Scales, a stackable NAB is good.

7. Divine Grace x2, sure it's good.

8. 1/2 casting progression is useless combined with the late entry.

9. Requiring two useless feats (Requiring Charisma), 4 unrelated Skills which don't synergise particularly well (which to optimize require Con, Int and Charisma), a valuable rank wasted in Speak Language (for optimization), a 3rd useless bonus feat, a Wyrmling Dragon that will not increase in power during the length of a typical campaign, immunity to Magical Sleep and Paralysis is good, but far too late on, gains senses far too late on. A summon adult dragon as a capstone? That's fairly decent, but Dragon Ally Greater does the same, but better (up to 27 HD, rather than 20ish); at the cost of XP, but that's easily got around by the levels you're participating at.

1. Well, for a PC who would normally wear a chain shirt, it's actually not bad (it's on par with some of the heavy armors, but better)

2. Again, it's not bad. Sure, a DM may shaft you at first chance, but it's money for a class feature.

3. The feat selection isn't as vast as Fighter, but it grants you 9 Exalted Feats as choices, so not bad.

4. No denial there. I was saying that the fact it opens up a spell list is actually nice.

5. The only caveat for that is Pathfinder Chronicle's Holy Warrior Cleric ACF (trades domains for Full BAB, d10 HD, and proficiency in deity's weapon), in which losing two levels for the Proficiencies, Armor, and the Trove isn't a bad trade at all.

6. yes

7. yes

8. +5 BAB, 4 ranks 2 okay skills, and using 1 modifier in INT to learn Draconic and 1 bad feat. How is this Late Entry?

9. So 2 meh feats, some skills that honestly a caster should grab if they're on their list (Know: Arcana & Religion, Concentration), and a whole 1 skill point/2 points INT used to get a language (made up for by Human). The features aren't amazing, but the Level 1 ability (Glory/Domination Domain for free) is nothing to sneeze at. It's a free domain, and two domains that in and of themselves aren't bad at all.

[Venger]

Well, here's what each gets that's kinda hot:

Vassal: Platinum Armor (a chainmail shirt that gets +8 AC with everything else chain shirts get? Awesome!), Shared Trove (money as a class feature??? Kinda sexy), Bonus feats (slightly limited list, but they're free. Can't Complain), Spellcasting (again, limited, but useful), Proficiencies (yes, Vassal gives you the same proficiencies as Paladin 1)

Platinum Knight: Platinum Scales (free natural armor. Not bad really), Bahamut's Grace (Hi. Free Second Divine Grace that explicitly stacks.), advances spellcasting (limitedly, but hey. If you are a paladin, it's nice)

Dracolyte: Prestige Domain (need I say more?), 10/10 casting advance (umm... Why do no optimizers use this?)

vassal of bahamut

the platinum armor's not bad. 13kgp is awfully nice, and you can explicitly use it to bulk up your equipment. so that's cool

the feat list isn't awful. you're a melee type, so you'll have power attack already, so you can nab imp bull rush for shock trooper.

platinum knight:

natural armor is nice indeed.
remember though: that bahamut's grace only applies against evil dragons

as far as spellcasting goes, I always try to have half-casting prcs progress 10 lvl casting. so if you wanted some platinum knight, advance vassal of bahamut's casting, that way you can actually finish its 10 level progression. its list is actually pretty good.

dracolyte does have full casting. it has average ba, bumps you down to a d8, is very awkward to get into, and gives little in the way of class features. these are reasons it sees litttle to no use in optimized play.

that said, if you wanted to shoehorn in 5 levels of dracolyte so you can have your own toothless, no one would criticize you for that. taking toughness really sucks, so see if your DM will allow you to have improved toughness count for prereqs (gives 1 hp per HD instead)

what kind of breakdown did you want? of the three classes you've mentioned, vassal gives the most and best class features. since your con doesn't really do anything per se, and you just get a bunch of hp from it. in that case, may I suggest shadow cloak paladin 6 (requires you be a gnome, so enjoy that bump to con) fighter 1 or something for the bonus feat

so how does shadow cloak pally6/ftr1/vassal 3/dracolyte 5/vassal 8 suit you?

[Arc_knight25]

I have done a character that was a devote follower of Bahamut. I started off as a Aasimir Paladin then at level 3 I took the feat devote Performer so I could begin to level as a bard. Through the campaign I got a chance to work in his transformation to become a dragonborn. I was lucky to have a leanient DM who then allowed me to prestige into Dragon Disiple dispite already having the dragonblood subtype from being a Dragonborn and for my breath weapon increases in Dragon Disciple he allowed me to have Breath weapon Feats.

My final build was 7 Paladin/3 Bard/10 Dragon Disciple

I had alot of fun with this character. Gaining alot of Stat bonues with the levels in dragon disciple.

I took some varients as well

Paladin - Underdark Knight instead of gaining a special mount.

Bard - Hymn of Healing and Hymn of Fortification I took as well I beleive so my music was alittle more useful out of combat.

Again was alot of fun

[Venger]

I have done a character that was a devote follower of Bahamut. I started off as a Aasimir Paladin then at level 3 I took the feat devote Performer so I could begin to level as a bard. Through the campaign I got a chance to work in his transformation to become a dragonborn. I was lucky to have a leanient DM who then allowed me to prestige into Dragon Disiple dispite already having the dragonblood subtype from being a Dragonborn and for my breath weapon increases in Dragon Disciple he allowed me to have Breath weapon Feats.

My final build was 7 Paladin/3 Bard/10 Dragon Disciple

I had alot of fun with this character. Gaining alot of Stat bonues with the levels in dragon disciple.

I took some varients as well

Paladin - Underdark Knight instead of gaining a special mount.

Bard - Hymn of Healing and Hymn of Fortification I took as well I beleive so my music was alittle more useful out of combat.

Again was alot of fun

glad you had fun with your character, he sounds like a blast.

however, dragon disciple only forbids being a halfdragon, not having the dragonblood subtype from being dragonborn, so you were never breaking any rules.

[Tokuhara]

vassal of bahamut

the platinum armor's not bad. 13kgp is awfully nice, and you can explicitly use it to bulk up your equipment. so that's cool

the feat list isn't awful. you're a melee type, so you'll have power attack already, so you can nab imp bull rush for shock trooper.

platinum knight:

natural armor is nice indeed.
remember though: that bahamut's grace only applies against evil dragons

as far as spellcasting goes, I always try to have half-casting prcs progress 10 lvl casting. so if you wanted some platinum knight, advance vassal of bahamut's casting, that way you can actually finish its 10 level progression. its list is actually pretty good.

dracolyte does have full casting. it has average ba, bumps you down to a d8, is very awkward to get into, and gives little in the way of class features. these are reasons it sees litttle to no use in optimized play.

that said, if you wanted to shoehorn in 5 levels of dracolyte so you can have your own toothless, no one would criticize you for that. taking toughness really sucks, so see if your DM will allow you to have improved toughness count for prereqs (gives 1 hp per HD instead)

what kind of breakdown did you want? of the three classes you've mentioned, vassal gives the most and best class features. since your con doesn't really do anything per se, and you just get a bunch of hp from it. in that case, may I suggest shadow cloak paladin 6 (requires you be a gnome, so enjoy that bump to con) fighter 1 or something for the bonus feat

so how does shadow cloak pally6/ftr1/vassal 3/dracolyte 5/vassal 8 suit you?

Hmm...

Well, minus the imagery of the Lesser Aasimar Dragonborn, it's actually pretty hot. Perhaps a Favored Enemy Dragonborn Paladin 6/Fighter 1/Vassal 3/Dracolyte 1/Knight 5/Vassal 4 riding a Drakkensteed?

[Venger]

Hmm...

Well, minus the imagery of the Lesser Aasimar Dragonborn, it's actually pretty hot. Perhaps a Favored Enemy Dragonborn Paladin 6/Fighter 1/Vassal 3/Dracolyte 1/Knight 5/Vassal 4 riding a Drakkensteed?

so, you don't want shadow cloak racial sub levels?

I only suggest it because killing a juvenile red dragon by yourself at level 7 as a martial character is almost impossible. hips might give you a fighting chance. by knight, I assume you mean platinum knight

the glory domain is rather mediocre, especially since you're trading away turn undead for smite evil dragons, and since bless weapon's already on your list (as a 1) and searing light's already on your list as well. disrupt undead 1/day isn't that great, and holy smite's pretty lackluster too, since dragons have rather good will saves. since that's all you're gaining from dracolyte (along with a caster level) and it's costing you a feat slot for toughness and a point of BA, I'd recommend against it.

another level of vessel of bahamut there also boosts spells and BA, doesn't cost a feat, and gives you another 8k via your shared trove ability.

drakkensteeds are cool, more power to you to ride one