Artificer help!

[Barkos]

So is artificer a good class to choose, Can it be helpful or wasteful?

[Kelb_Panthera]

It depends on how your group plays and how skilled you are at planning ahead.

The artificer's signature ability is the ability to craft -any- magic item in the game, given the necessary time and money. Consequently, if he has the time and money to do so then he can have exactly the right spell or item to overcome any situation he knew would come up.

Basically, it's like a wizard but more-so if played to its potential.

Played more casually it's comparable to a sorcerer with wands instead of spell-slots.

[Waspinator]

A big question is how much time your character will have to craft things, since cheap magic items helps a lot. Especially if you want to go the "make a giant army of constructs" route.

[Alienist]

So is artificer a good class to choose, Can it be helpful or wasteful?

Artificer is a very complex class. Don't go for it unless you love spreadsheets.

There are numerous traps and it is easy to make bad design choices.

The ability to craft anything is pretty much completely worthless if your party has either a Wizard or a Cleric already. Simply take the other half of the Wizard/Cleric duality and you're done, since they can help you with pre-requisites.* The previous caveat applies too, in order to 'craft anything' you need to get good at twiddling mthe spreadsheet.

*The last time I mentioned this, someone nitpicked that you wouldn't be able to make Sorcerer spells, to which I just epic facepalmed.**

**I believe that Sorc only spells might exist, but can you name any? Thought so.

The ability to craft items at all is pretty much worthless compared to the standard magic mart, because it takes such an incredibly long time. Think about it, in order for this ability to be good, you have to (a) have a couple of months of downtime and (b) for some reason during those months of downtime, not be able to get to a large city. That really only works if you're trapped in the wilderness somewhere, but then where will you get the thousands of gps worth of material components? It doesn't compute.

In addition to loving spreadsheets, you need to dumpster dive as many sourcebooks as you can. If you're playing with a limited selection of spellbooks the Artificer has a corresponding decrease in potential.

The one thing that makes Artificers moderately interesting, is the ability to apply metamagic to magic items after the fact. Two of your spells do this (for scrolls and wands), and two of your class features do this too, for scrolls and wands.

Spell 1 - Level 1; Apply a single metamagic up to a two point adjustment to a spell completion item
Spell 2 - Level 3; Apply a single metamagic (with no limit) to a spell trigger item for a number of rounds
Class feature 1 - burn extra uses for metamagic on a spell trigger item (NB: if the metamagic costs 0 then no extra charges are burned)
Class feature 2 - make a ridiculously hard UMD check to apply a metamagic to the spell completion item, feature is usable a limited number of times per day

If you look at those, you should realise that to optimise it, you're probably going to need to use four (or more) different metamagic feats ... This is a huge feat tax

You can also burn xp to make single shot wands, which is interesting.

The last feature I think is kind of a stealth feature, it seems to fly under the radar of most people's analysis. It is the ability to add temporary charges to a spell trigger item, at the cost of a small amount of xp.

[Story]

The ability to craft anything is pretty much completely worthless if your party has either a Wizard or a Cleric already. Simply take the other half of the Wizard/Cleric duality and you're done, since they can help you with pre-requisites.* The previous caveat applies too, in order to 'craft anything' you need to get good at twiddling mthe spreadsheet.

*The last time I mentioned this, someone nitpicked that you wouldn't be able to make Sorcerer spells, to which I just epic facepalmed.**



It's not just Sorceror Spells. There's Druid spells, Paladin spells, Bard Spells, Runescarred Berserker Spells, Trapsmith Spells, Adept Spells, Bardic Sage spells, etc

All of those spell lists have spells that are unique or appear at a lower level than normal.





**I believe that Sorc only spells might exist, but can you name any? Thought so.



Wings of Cover, Wings of Flury, Arcane Fusion, and Greater Arcane Fusion are the most important, but there are probably others. Many Wizards would kill for access to (Greater) Arcane Fusion or Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry is an awesome blasting spell.





In addition to loving spreadsheets, you need to dumpster dive as many sourcebooks as you can. If you're playing with a limited selection of spellbooks the Artificer has a corresponding decrease in potential.


While their power does increase with more splats, Artificers are still be incredibly useful even with only Core + ECS + MiC in play. And even with other Tier 1s in the party.

They won't shine much in combat, but who can say no to having their WBL doubled? Especially when handcrafted items are the most useful items they need, and can use the MiC combining rules to be a lot more efficient.

[Alienist]

It's not just Sorceror Spells. There's Druid spells, Paladin spells, Bard Spells, Runescarred Berserker Spells, Trapsmith Spells, Adept Spells, Bardic Sage spells, etc

All of those spell lists have spells that are unique or appear at a lower level than normal.


That's nice. Actually, no, it's not. Allow me to counter-pick:
If Paladin spells were any good they wouldn't be tier 5

Anyway, the CONTEXT which in your rush to nitpick (seriously? Oh gosh, Druids have their own spell list! Why did nobody tell me!) you're ignoring ... is making wondrous items. Please name two standard wondrous items which:
(a) require spells not on the cleric or wizard's lists
(b) anybody would actually bother making (i.e. that are good)



Wings of Cover, Wings of Flury, Arcane Fusion, and Greater Arcane Fusion are the most important, but there are probably others. Many Wizards would kill for access to (Greater) Arcane Fusion or Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry is an awesome blasting spell.


Nitpicks:
Wings of Cover is an immediate, which is a classic weakness of the Artificer as compared to the 'real' tier 1 casters.*
Wings of Flurry is very situational, it can hurt your allies as well as enemies, making it a mediocre blasting spell. Flamestrike (Druid 4 (Shock! Horror! Sarcasm!)) is an awesome blasting spell.
Arcane Fusion doesn't even apply to Artificers. (Seriously? You nitpick me with a spell they can't even use?)
Presumably the Greater one doesn't work for Artificers either.

//Higher than level 20 face-palm//

*Allow me to pre-emptively nitpick your nitpick. Yes, I am aware of Wand Sheaths. However there are only so many ways that you can claim to have wands 'immediately ready', and there are greatly many more immediate spells than there are ways of holding more than one wand at a time.**

**You could shove it in a Wondrous item, with your DM's permission, but arguably this doesn't work by RAW.***

***Yes I said that to provoke you to prove that it does work by RAW. Go ahead, make my day.



While their power does increase with more splats, Artificers are still be incredibly useful even with only Core + ECS + MiC in play. And even with other Tier 1s in the party.


To really crank the handle on the Artificer, you need access to a couple of the Eberron splats.

Not having access to Magic Savant from Complete Mage (A Bard spell! Aaaaiiiieeeee! Sarcasmx2!!!) is a major nerf.



They won't shine much in combat, but who can say no to having their WBL doubled?


Not an Artificer exclusive thing.



Especially when handcrafted items are the most useful items they need,


Not an Artificer exclusive thing.



and can use the MiC combining rules to be a lot more efficient.


Not an Artificer exclusive thing.

Also, a lot more efficient than what? Someone else in the party crafting?

In this context, you are proposing a party already containing a Cleric and a Wizard will benefit from having an Artificer?

I find that claim a significant stretch. If the Cleric takes Craft Wondrous Item at level 3, and the Wizard takes Craft Arms and Armor as their bonus level 5 feat, between the two of them they can make over 90% of the things which an Artificer might actually make.

If you wanted the extra spell lists, say either Bard (mainly for skill monkeying) or Ranger (mainly for archery, which we all know is so awesome in 3.5 (Sarcasmx3!!!! The perfect hat-trick! Woooo!!)), you could play as a Bard or Ranger, and get actual class features which will contribute to the party, in addition to those spells.

[Story]

Stuff that only an Artificer can do? Well they can create Wands of Dimension Door at level 1. Good luck finding another class that can do that.

And while they aren't the only class that can craft, they can do so far more cheaply and efficiently than any other class.

[Madara]

So is artificer a good class to choose, Can it be helpful or wasteful?

On a less hostile note, the Artificer is a wonderful class to choose for helping your party. You can play a significant role buffing your allies, something that they all appretiate, and you can also have fun using whatever spells you feel like. Not to mention the real of possibilities if your DM works with you on Custom Magic Items.

If you want to argue about the mechanics, I'll just point out that Artificer is agreed on as T0 if wanted.While some may say a Wizard is just as good of a crafter, I'll point out that the Artificer doesn't have to spend their XP on crafting magic items.

[Arcanist]

I couldn't resist...

That's nice. Actually, no, it's not. Allow me to counter-pick:
If Paladin spells were any good they wouldn't be tier 5

This is inherently false because the Tier list does not care for the option of spell list that may or may not be attacked to the class, it calculates flexibility and variation during any given situation. The reason the Paladin is Tier 5 is because it is:


Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute.

You little silly billy :smalltongue:


Anyway, the CONTEXT which in your rush to nitpick (seriously? Oh gosh, Druids have their own spell list! Why did nobody tell me!) you're ignoring ... is making wondrous items. Please name two standard wondrous items which:
(a) require spells not on the cleric or wizard's lists
(b) anybody would actually bother making (i.e. that are good)

I find the Amulet of Constant Favor of the Martyr and Activated Dimension Door to be fairly nice (easily obtainable at 5th level mind you). The strength in the Artificer is to be able to craft custom magical items on the cheap. Being able to access every single list is just gravy :smalltongue:


Nitpicks:
Wings of Cover is an immediate, which is a classic weakness of the Artificer as compared to the 'real' tier 1 casters.*
Wings of Flurry is very situational, it can hurt your allies as well as enemies, making it a mediocre blasting spell. Flamestrike (Druid 4 (Shock! Horror! Sarcasm!)) is an awesome blasting spell.
Arcane Fusion doesn't even apply to Artificers. (Seriously? You nitpick me with a spell they can't even use?)
Presumably the Greater one doesn't work for Artificers either.

Applying Arcane Fusion (and Greater) to an Active Wondrous Item is perfectly fine. The Artificer can replicate the spell for the magic item creation and then use it to cast any two spells that the Artificer knows (which he knows none mind you).

Wings of Cover and Flurry are nice and useable by the Artificer (and Wings of Cover can be attacked to a Wand as well!) :smalltongue:


*Allow me to pre-emptively nitpick your nitpick. Yes, I am aware of Wand Sheaths. However there are only so many ways that you can claim to have wands 'immediately ready', and there are greatly many more immediate spells
than there are ways of holding more than one wand at a time.**

**You could shove it in a Wondrous item, with your DM's permission, but arguably this doesn't work by RAW.***

***Yes I said that to provoke you to prove that it does work by RAW. Go ahead, make my day.


Wand Chamber (Weapon or Shield): a wand chamber is a thin cylindrical slot on a handle of a weapon or the edge of a shield that can hold a single wand. When the wand is in the chamber it is considered ready and can be activated without having to drop the weapon or shield. Changing the wand in the chamber is a full-round action.


To really crank the handle on the Artificer, you need access to a couple of the Eberron splats.

Eh, not really. The Artificer works just fine in Eberron Core and adding more only makes it that much more powerful :smallsmile:


I find that claim a significant stretch. If the Cleric takes Craft Wondrous Item at level 3, and the Wizard takes Craft Arms and Armor as their bonus level 5 feat, between the two of them they can make over 90% of the things which an Artificer might actually make.

And yet the Artificer would be able to this earlier and more effectively. At 3rd level the Artificer can craft a Wondrous item using 3rd level Divine & Arcane spells while the Cleric can only use 2nd level and Divine. At 5th level the Artificer can do the same, but only more effectively then if a 3rd level Cleric and a 5th level Wizard, because he has access to 4th level Divine and Arcane spells.

At this point I'm wondering if this was all just sarcastic or not :smalltongue:

OT: Artificer is a wondrous class and Kelb pretty much got it perfectly accurate. It is my undisputed favorite class since it is effectively T3 to T0 pending on how you play it :smalltongue:


If you want to argue about the mechanics, I'll just point out that Artificer is agreed on as T0 if wanted.While some may say a Wizard is just as good of a crafter, I'll point out that the Artificer doesn't have to spend their XP on crafting magic items.

Debatable :smalltongue: If you have accesses to the Book of Vile Darkness you can use Souls and Sacrifice Gold and XP (Hopefully you remember that!)

[Madara]

Debatable :smalltongue: If you have accesses to the Book of Vile Darkness you can use Souls and Sacrifice Gold and XP (Hopefully you remember that!)

3.0, but of course, by this point we're reaching heavy cheese and may as well break out Thought Bottle and Item Familiars. :smallwink:

[Arcanist]

3.0, but of course, by this point we're reaching heavy cheese and may as well break out Thought Bottle and Item Familiars. :smallwink:

PFFT! You're an Artificer! Your Thought Bottles are filled with Champaign and your Item Familiars are diamond encrusted! :smallamused:

[Alienist]

Stuff that only an Artificer can do? Well they can create Wands of Dimension Door at level 1. Good luck finding another class that can do that.


Wand of Dimension Door at level 1???

Citation required.



And while they aren't the only class that can craft, they can do so far more cheaply and efficiently than any other class.

Artificers have no cost reductions available to them that other classes don't also have, except for the crafting pool. The crafting pool is so small as to be mostly irrelevant. E.g. at level 5 it's good for one +1 weapon. Don't spend it all at once.

[Waspinator]

Spell Storing Item is pretty cool, since you can use it to cast literally any 0-4th level spell.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

...across twenty levels, Wizards get a total of four bonus feats that can be spent on item creation feats, plus one free type of item creation (scrolls).

Artificers get five, on top of the nine feats they get for free as class features (counting only the most direct "You can build a new sort of item" feats. Saying that Artificer's aren't better than Wizards at crafting because Wizards can get the same individual bonuses is ludicrous.

Wizards: Can spend feats to learn to craft items that require Wizard spells.

Artificers: Can craft items that require *any* spells without spending feats, then get class features to make that crafting cheaper, then get class features to improve their ability to use those items, then get more feats to further improve the crafting and use of those items.

[Tvtyrant]

I believe the Trapsmith list alone is an argument in favor of Artificers.


1st: arcane sight, cat's grace, clairaudience/clairvoyance, dispel magic, fox's cunning, gaseous form, haste, knock, protection from energy

2nd: arcane eye, dimension door, lesser globe of invulnerability, resilient sphere, stoneskin, stone shape

3rd: interposing hand, break enchantment, fabricate, greater dispel, wall of stone.

[Alienist]

Spell Storing Item is pretty cool, since you can use it to cast literally any 0-4th level spell.

The problem is you have to be 8th level as an Artificer to make the item with 4th level spells.

On the other hand, today I learned that you can make infinite cantrips, for 0 xp cost. Nice.

Also, so long as people want to abuse the casting spells as "effectively one level higher", similar language exists in Spell Storing Item:

"The item becomes, in effect, a wand with a single charge"

Power Surge becomes a cheaper way to add extra charges to it, for instance. Plus Wand Mastery, yada yada.


I believe the Trapsmith list alone is an argument in favor of Artificers.


1st: arcane sight, cat's grace, clairaudience/clairvoyance, dispel magic, fox's cunning, gaseous form, haste, knock, protection from energy

2nd: arcane eye, dimension door, lesser globe of invulnerability, resilient sphere, stoneskin, stone shape

3rd: interposing hand, break enchantment, fabricate, greater dispel, wall of stone.

Not really. For instance you're only getting Fabricate one level earlier than the Artificer, which was two levels behind everybody else (except Sorcs)

Spell Storing Item in conjunction with the level 1 portion of that list is kind of cool though. At level 2, you just made the Rogue redundant. Nice.

[Tvtyrant]

Not really. For instance you're only getting Fabricate one level earlier than the Artificer, which was two levels behind everybody else (except Sorcs)

Spell Storing Item in conjunction with the level 1 portion of that list is kind of cool though. At level 2, you just made the Rogue redundant. Nice.

Fabricate is a 5th level wizard spell. Artificer can use it as a 3rd level spell, and is 2 CL faster than the Wizard to boot. So instead of getting to use Fabricate at level 9, you get to use it at level 3.

Wall of Stone is also 5th level, DD is 4th, etc.

Also, as this is an Artificer help thread. Handbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5929.0), handbooks (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872330/Artificer_Handbook_(rough_draft)), handbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11474).

[FreakyCheeseMan]

The problem is you have to be 8th level as an Artificer to make the item with 4th level spells.


...what? Where are you getting that from? ECS states that, for meeting prerequisites, the caster level of an artificer is equal to his character level +2; it explicitly states than a 3rd-level artificer could make a scroll of fireball, so it follows that a 5th level artificer could make an item with 4th level spells.

[Story]

Wand of Dimension Door at level 1???

Citation required.

Trapsmiths get Dimension Door at CL3. Since Artificers get +2CL for purposes of meeting prerequesites, they can craft a Scroll of Dimension Door at level 1. They can craft the Wand too if they get the gold somehow.

[Alienist]

...what? Where are you getting that from? ECS states that, for meeting prerequisites, the caster level of an artificer is equal to his character level +2; it explicitly states than a 3rd-level artificer could make a scroll of fireball, so it follows that a 5th level artificer could make an item with 4th level spells.

If you weren't in such a rush to correct me, you'd see that the CONTEXT of what I said was in reply to what someone said about Spell Storing Item.

Spell Storing Item is found on page 115 of the ECS. I was referring to the third sentence. Please refer to that, and I will be happy to address any further questions you have.


Fabricate is a 5th level wizard spell. Artificer can use it as a 3rd level spell, and is 2 CL faster than the Wizard to boot. So instead of getting to use Fabricate at level 9, you get to use it at level 3.

Wall of Stone is also 5th level, DD is 4th, etc.

Also, as this is an Artificer help thread. Handbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5929.0), handbooks (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872330/Artificer_Handbook_(rough_draft)), handbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11474).

That's really not how it works. A Trapsmith can't get Fabricate before character level 10, so as an Artificer you can't use that to make those items before level 8.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

If you weren't in such a rush to correct me, you'd see that the CONTEXT of what I said was in reply to what someone said about Spell Storing Item.

Spell Storing Item is found on page 115 of the ECS. I was referring to the third sentence. Please refer to that, and I will be happy to address any further questions you have.

Alright, I missed the context of that one - apologies. Can't say it changes my mind on the larger issue, but I was mistaken about the specific argument I thought you were making.

[Gavinfoxx]

Artificer is arguably the most complex class in the game. Also arguably the most powerful.

Are you up to the challenge?

[Elric VIII]

That's really not how it works. A Trapsmith can't get Fabricate before character level 10, so as an Artificer you can't use that to make those items before level 8.

CL = Caster level, not character level. A trapsmith can cast DDoor as a 2nd level spell with a caster level of 3. This means that an Artificer can make a scroll of it as a 2nd level spell when his caster level is 3. An Artificer's caster level for the purpose of creating magic items is 2 higher than his Artificer level.




To the OP, Artificer is an awesome class is it can fit into many roles. You can be:


Hoardificer - Throw legions of constructs and homunculi at enemies, and buff them all like a champ.

Meleeficer - buff your weapons (or yourself if you're a warforged), use those nice low-level spells like Wraithstrike or Rhino's Rush to be a badass.

Archeficer - similar to the above, except now you have access to all the good Rager archery spells.

Buffificer - Who need Clerics? Can you say Haste as a level 1 spell?

Blastificer - Nothing says "die" like a Twinned, Empowered, Maximized, Energy Admixtured Orb of Acid, twice per turn.

MacGyver - Alchemy, minor wonderous items, piles of nice consumables. You are like a rouge with super powers.

[Alienist]

...across twenty levels, Wizards get a total of four bonus feats that can be spent on item creation feats, plus one free type of item creation (scrolls).

Artificers get five, on top of the nine feats they get for free as class features (counting only the most direct "You can build a new sort of item" feats. Saying that Artificer's aren't better than Wizards at crafting because Wizards can get the same individual bonuses is ludicrous.

Wizards: Can spend feats to learn to craft items that require Wizard spells.

Artificers: Can craft items that require *any* spells without spending feats, then get class features to make that crafting cheaper, then get class features to improve their ability to use those items, then get more feats to further improve the crafting and use of those items.

Well, again you're shifting the argument away from where it was. This time you're moving from Cleric + Wizard + 1 feat each vs Artificer to Wizard vs Artificer.

If you want to do that, and look at it in the context of counting who gets what feats, then you have to look at the possibility of a Wizard with two level of Chameleon.

All of a sudden the Wizard has the advantage, because he can craft Schemas and other things that the Artificer doesn't get as freebies. And the Wizard still gets ninth level spells.

At risk of repeating myself: I want to correct this statement that people keep making about Artificers getting class features which make crafting cheaper. Apart from the Crafting Pool (which I have already covered), what features are those? Cite examples please.

[Edit: struck out because of RETAIN ESSENCE. I would thank the person involved for pointing that out, but last time I thanked someone for something I got an infraction because someone thought I was being sarcastic even though I was being sincere]

Also, what is the point of telling me that Artificers "get class features to improve their ability to use those items"??? I already covered that, in detail, in an earlier post in this thread.

[thriceborn]

I've seen a lot of people saying in this thread that artificers can only use wizard/cleric lists for crafting, and I haven't found that anywhere else, and I was recently playing an artificer before he died and never found anything to that effect when I was splatbook diving.

Is this a legitimate rule by WotC, or is it just a houserule? If it's a legit rule can I get a page reference, or a link to the online article. Thanks!

Also to the OP, artificers are fun, and can be played sans spreadsheets, but be prepared to have at least one page full of scrolls, and other magica etc. I ended up using a google document to keep all my stuff and general campaign notes in, it's a good option.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, Artificer, out of the gate, can make scrolls of Arcane Sight...

[Arcanist]

Wand of Dimension Door at level 1???

Citation required.


Item Creation (Ex): An artificer can create a magic item even if he does not have access to the spells that are prerequisites for the item. The artificer must make a successful Use Magic Device check (DC 20 + caster level) to emulate each spell normally required to create the item. Thus, to make a 1st-level Wand Of Magic Missile/, an artificer would need a Use Magic Device check result of 21 or higher. To create a Bottle Of Air (caster level 7th), he would need a check result of 27 or higher to emulate the Water Breathing prerequisite.


Artificers have no cost reductions available to them that other classes don't also have, except for the crafting pool. The crafting pool is so small as to be mostly irrelevant. E.g. at level 5 it's good for one +1 weapon. Don't spend it all at once.


Retain Essence (Su): At 5th level, an artificer gains the ability to salvage the XP from a magic item and use those points to create another magic item. The artificer must spend a day with the item, and he must also have the appropriate item creation feat for the item he is salvaging. After one day, the item is destroyed and the artificer adds the XP it took to create the item to his craft reserve. These points are lost if the artificer does not use them before gaining his next level.

For example, an artificer wants to retain the essence of a Wand Of Summon Monster IV that has 20 charges. Originally created (like all wands) with 50 charges, it required 840 XP when initially made, or 16.8 XP (840 ÷ 50) per charge. The artificer is able to recover the XP from the remaining charges. He puts 336 XP (16.8 × 20) into his craft reserve.

To add to this, Eternal Wands are a neat little way to spend your Craft Reserve since they can be used for the long term and broken down to trade up.

Being able to apply requirements for using the magical item is even more cheesy to the Artificer:



Item Requires Skill to Use
Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.

Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use
Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the cost by 30%.

Which by using all of these can result in a 70% (or 40%, pending how you read it) reduction in the cost to the creation of a magical item. Destroying the world isn't nice though so personally, I don't apply these types of things, but for future reference: At a 70% reduction, a 4th level wand only cost 3,150gp, 252xp and 4 days which, by cannibalizing a Wand of Magic Missile (3rd) (4,500gp) lets them JUST slide under to go through all of it without spending a lick of their own XP and leaves them with 78xp in their Craft Reserve.

This cost the Artificer all of 7,650gp and 5 days of their time at 6th level. Meaning they can get a Wand of Favor the Martyr, Celerity, you know all that good stuff. Having access to Fabricate at 2nd level is always nice as well which helps :smalltongue:

Addendum: I'd like to note that the Craft Reserve does not inherently make the Artificer a better craft, it does however make them a more risk free crafter since other crafters must use their own XP where as the Artificer can use Retain Essence and their Craft Reserve to lower the cost of the XP as required. Using the argument that "XP is a River" only weakens the stance that any other Crafter is superior to the Artificer since if XP is a River, the Artificer is farther up the River then everyone else.

[Elric VIII]

At risk of repeating myself: I want to correct this statement that people keep making about Artificers getting class features which make crafting cheaper. Apart from the Crafting Pool (which I have already covered), what features are those? Cite examples please.

It's simple, the Artificer gets more feats. That means he can spend more feats on things like Legenday and Exceptional Artisan while still taking metamagic feats. Because a Wizard/Cleric that doesn't understand Metamagic is just bad. At this point you are saying that Monks beat Wizards because they can take ranks in UMD. Sure, the Wizard can take all of those crafting feats, but the Artificer gets them and still has feats left over for important things.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Well, again you're shifting the argument away from where it was. This time you're moving from Cleric + Wizard + 1 feat each vs Artificer to Wizard vs Artificer.

If you want to do that, and look at it in the context of counting who gets what feats, then you have to look at the possibility of a Wizard with two level of Chameleon.

All of a sudden the Wizard has the advantage, because he can craft Schemas and other things that the Artificer doesn't get as freebies. And the Wizard still gets ninth level spells.

At risk of repeating myself: I want to correct this statement that people keep making about Artificers getting class features which make crafting cheaper. Apart from the Crafting Pool (which I have already covered), what features are those? Cite examples please.

So... your argument is that Artificers aren't powerful, because if the party already contains a caster that's focused on crafting, that crafter will be able to do some of what the artificer does, and if it has a very specific build, one or two things the artificer would have to buy through feats?

Sorry, but that's still a long, long way away from making the Artificer anything other than an incredibly powerful class; heck, even if your party already contained another artificer, more crafting is always a huge benefit. When the game starts, it's twice the items that can have already been made; as the game progresses, it's twice the crafting accomplished per day, from twice the pool of craft reserve/XP.

I'm sorry if you don't think that craft reserve is all that significant, but it still is a feature that reduces the cost of item crafting. Add in the fact that artificers aren't actually required to know the spells prerequisite for their crafting, that easily meets the definition of "Class features that make crafting cheaper."

Sure, the wizard gets 9th level spells - the artificer just happens to get access to them at 15th level.

[Arcanist]

Sure, the wizard gets 9th level spells - the artificer just happens to get access to them at 15th level.

Beholder Mage, Ur-Priest, Blighter, Divine Crusader, any fast progression class says that it's earlier... :smalltongue:

[Alienist]

I've seen a lot of people saying in this thread that artificers can only use wizard/cleric lists for crafting, and I haven't found that anywhere else, and I was recently playing an artificer before he died and never found anything to that effect when I was splatbook diving.


Nobody said that.



Is this a legitimate rule by WotC, or is it just a houserule? If it's a legit rule can I get a page reference, or a link to the online article. Thanks!


It appears to be your own invention.

If you're pointing the finger at me when then don't twist what I said.



Also to the OP, artificers are fun, and can be played sans spreadsheets, but be prepared to have at least one page full of scrolls, and other magica etc. I ended up using a google document to keep all my stuff and general campaign notes in, it's a good option.

Saying you don't need a spreadsheet, and then saying that you do need a document of some form to track everything in strikes me as a little bit contradictory. Yes, you can make lists of stuff in things other than spreadsheets.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Oh, and I almost forgot: Retain Essence. Artificers can recycle vender trash to increase their own crafting pool. So, yes, Artificers get class features that make crafting cheaper. You can argue the efficacy and impact of those features, but the statement itself is just a fact.

[Arcanist]

Oh, and I almost forgot: Retain Essence. Artificers can recycle vender trash to increase their own crafting pool. So, yes, Artificers get class features that make crafting cheaper. You can argue the efficacy and impact of those features, but the statement itself is just a fact.

IT'S LIKE I'M FRIKEN INVISIBLE! :smallfurious:

[FreakyCheeseMan]

IT'S LIKE I'M FRIKEN INVISIBLE! :smallfurious:

D'oh. Sorry. But yeah, you said it first.

[Arcanist]

D'oh. Sorry. But yeah, you said it first.

I'm just teasing man :smalltongue:

[Alienist]

To add to this, Eternal Wands are a neat little way to spend your Craft Reserve since they can be used for the long term and broken down to trade up.


Good point.



Being able to apply requirements for using the magical item is even more cheesy to the Artificer:


It isn't exclusive to the Artificer though, which is one of my points, a lot of the stuff that people point at Artificers and go "they can do this!" is not Artificer only.



Which by using all of these can result in a 70% (or 40%, pending how you read it) reduction in the cost to the creation of a magical item. Destroying the world isn't nice though so personally, I don't apply these types of things, but for future reference: At a 70% reduction, a 4th level wand only cost 3,150gp, 252xp and 4 days which, by cannibalizing a Wand of Magic Missile (3rd) (4,500gp) lets them JUST slide under to go through all of it without spending a lick of their own XP and leaves them with 78xp in their Craft Reserve.

This cost the Artificer all of 7,650gp and 5 days of their time at 6th level. Meaning they can get a Wand of Favor the Martyr, Celerity, you know all that good stuff. Having access to Fabricate at 2nd level is always nice as well which helps :smalltongue:


Fabricate at level 2? Citation required.
Knock at level 2 is good. Fabricate at level 2 makes me think you're breaking the rules somewhere, so I would like to see your working.



Addendum: I'd like to note that the Craft Reserve does not inherently make the Artificer a better craft, it does however make them a more risk free crafter since other crafters must use their own XP where as the Artificer can use Retain Essence and their Craft Reserve to lower the cost of the XP as required. Using the argument that "XP is a River" only weakens the stance that any other Crafter is superior to the Artificer since if XP is a River, the Artificer is farther up the River then everyone else.

No no, I'll certainly accept Retain Essence as an answer to the question "name a second class feature which improves Artificer crafting".

For most things it's a moot point, but it allows recovery of xp from magical traps (maybe that's what happened to the trappyverse, a plague of Artificers?) and possibly also things like Golems?

NB: I never mentioned the watery flowing thing. Soooooo very much not going there.

[Alienist]

IT'S LIKE I'M FRIKEN INVISIBLE! :smallfurious:

No, you're not. Check the timestamps, you'll see I was editing my earlier post to acknowledge your contribution, as well as posting to give credit where credit is due.

If it wasn't for a repeating server fart, I'd have posted much sooner.




Wand of Dimension Door at level 1??? Citation required.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Eberron Campaign Setting, Page 32
Item Creation (Ex): An artificer can create a magic item even if he does not have access to the spells that are prerequisites for the item. The artificer must make a successful Use Magic Device check (DC 20 + caster level) to emulate each spell normally required to create the item. Thus, to make a 1st-level Wand Of Magic Missile/, an artificer would need a Use Magic Device check result of 21 or higher. To create a Bottle Of Air (caster level 7th), he would need a check result of 27 or higher to emulate the Water Breathing prerequisite.


Ah, you're just talking about the normal Artificer crafting, in which case you have two problems:

(1) Artificers can't create Wands at level 1 (they don't get it until level 6)
(2) In addition to requiring the UMD roll, there are minimum levels you need to meet. That information is on the same page you quoted. A specific example (needing to be at least 3rd level to scribe fireball) is given.

NB: if for some reason you decided to emulate a Sorc's fireball instead of a Wizard's fireball, you'd need to be 4th level, since Sorcs don't get it until level 6.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

No, you're not. Check the timestamps, you'll see I was editing my earlier post to acknowledge your contribution, as well as posting to give credit where credit is due.

If it wasn't for a repeating server fart, I'd have posted much sooner.

Pretty sure that his frustrations over his lack of visibility were in response to me. >_>

[Story]

Fabricate at level 2? Citation required.
Knock at level 2 is good. Fabricate at level 2 makes me think you're breaking the rules somewhere, so I would like to see your working.



Yeah, that's incorrect. Artificers don't get Fabricate until level 3. :smalltongue:

[Arcanist]

It isn't exclusive to the Artificer though, which is one of my points, a lot of the stuff that people point at Artificers and go "they can do this!" is not Artificer only.

It's not a matter of if it is exclusive too the Artificer or not, what matter is the fact of who can get away with more, while losing less which the Artificer can do FAR more superior then any other class.


Fabricate at level 2? Citation required.
Knock at level 2 is good. Fabricate at level 2 makes me think you're breaking the rules somewhere, so I would like to see your working.

My response to this is that 2 is right next to 3 on my keyboard and my brain pooted :smalltongue: The earliest an Artificer can possibly get access to Fabricate is at 3rd level from the Trapsmith list.


No no, I'll certainly accept Retain Essence as an answer to the question "name a second class feature which improves Artificer crafting".

For most things it's a moot point, but it allows recovery of xp from magical traps (maybe that's what happened to the trappyverse, a plague of Artificers?) and possibly also things like Golems?

It has to be an item with charges (making it fairly limited) so Magic traps and Golems are right out, but like I said: It isn't about who can do what more exclusively, but who can drop the XP cost of an item the lowest (or as close to 0 as possible).

No other crafter can do this except for the Artificer and the Fleshgrafter (which is crap mind you). It's more or less a game of "Anything you can do, I can do better" (http://youtu.be/tfHBPusZg6E) :smallwink:

[Story]

Also note that while Artificer is the best at dipping obscure spell lists, it's important to know for other classes too. For example, Limited Wish can duplicate Heal thanks to the Adept.

[Alienist]

Yeah, that's incorrect. Artificers don't get Fabricate until level 3. :smalltongue:

I'm still sticking to my earlier answer:

Trapsmiths don't get Fabricate before level 10, therefore if you are emulating that requirement when manufacturing an item, you can't do it until level 8.

Of course, since it is sitting on various other caster lists as a spell they get at 9th level, you can emulate it normally at level 7 anyway, hence Trapsmith is no great advantage there.

[Alienist]

It's not a matter of if it is exclusive too the Artificer or not, what matter is the fact of who can get away with more, while losing less which the Artificer can do FAR more superior then any other class.

My response to this is that 2 is right next to 3 on my keyboard and my brain pooted :smalltongue: The earliest an Artificer can possibly get access to Fabricate is at 3rd level from the Trapsmith list.

It has to be an item with charges (making it fairly limited) so Magic traps and Golems are right out, but like I said: It isn't about who can do what more exclusively, but who can drop the XP cost of an item the lowest (or as close to 0 as possible).

No other crafter can do this except for the Artificer and the Fleshgrafter (which is crap mind you). It's more or less a game of "Anything you can do, I can do better" (http://youtu.be/tfHBPusZg6E) :smallwink:

It doesn't have to be an item with charges. Traps and Golems are fair game (assuming you upgraded from Craft Homunculus to the vastly superior Craft Construct) I think you need to reread the Artificer class from top to bottom again.

This serves as a lesson to the student (or OP in this case), the Artificer is a very tricky, rules dense class.

[Arcanist]

Also note that while Artificer is the best at dipping obscure spell lists, it's important to know for other classes too. For example, Limited Wish can duplicate Heal thanks to the Adept.

Quite right. Now as far as Artificer Optimization, I like the Alchemist Savant and the Mastery Alchemist combination. 9th level Spells in potions!? SAY WHAT?! :smallbiggrin:

But personally? I prefer the Cannith Wand Adapt since it pretty much grants you 50 action points (which grant you a 1d4 bonus to any Level, Ability, or Skill check, Saving Throw and Attack roll) at the cost of a single charge from a 0th level wand. You can also increase the bonus to 1d6 by using a higher quality wand (1st or higher). :smalltongue: Also? Cowboy :smallcool:


It doesn't have to be an item with charges. Traps and Golems are fair game (assuming you upgraded from Craft Homunculus to the vastly superior Craft Construct) I think you need to reread the Artificer class from top to bottom again.

Sorry for making an error with the example given being a charged Item so I made the association. Considering that I've had to show you lines of text from the book I believe it is you who should reread the Artificer class :smallwink: It's all good though, I don't expect either of us to be spot on ALL the time. That is why we're on a public forum so that if we're wrong someone can jump on us and correct us.

[Story]

I'm still sticking to my earlier answer:

Trapsmiths don't get Fabricate before level 10, therefore if you are emulating that requirement when manufacturing an item, you can't do it until level 8.

Of course, since it is sitting on various other caster lists as a spell they get at 9th level, you can emulate it normally at level 7 anyway, hence Trapsmith is no great advantage there.

Sorry, but that's not how the rules work. Item crafting depends only on caster level.

Think about it this way. Would you require everyone to be level 20 before they can craft scrolls of Magic Missle simply because it's possible to go Fighter 19/Wizard 1? The fact that Trapsmith requires multiclassing to get into is irrelevant: it is a seperate spellcasting class with its own spell list. Trapsmith spellcasting depends only on your Trapsmith level.

[Arcanist]

Sorry, but that's not how the rules work. Item crafting depends only on caster level.

Think about it this way. Would you require everyone to be level 20 before they can craft scrolls of Magic Missle simply because it's possible to go Fighter 19/Wizard 1? The fact that Trapsmith requires multiclassing to get into is irrelevant: it is a seperate spellcasting class with its own spell list. Trapsmith spellcasting depends only on your Trapsmith level.

The Trapsmith specifically states that it cast as the Bard does. The Bard's caster level is equal to it's class level meaning that the Trapsmith's caster level is equivalent to it's class level therefore making Fabricate's minimum caster level requirement 3 for the Trapsmith and anyone casting spells of it's list.

[Alienist]

The Trapsmith specifically states that it cast as the Bard does. The Bard's caster level is equal to it's class level meaning that the Trapsmith's caster level is equivalent to it's class level therefore making Fabricate's minimum caster level requirement 3 for the Trapsmith and anyone casting spells of it's list.

Even if we accept your premise, your number is wrong again. Trapsmith doesn't get third level spells off its list until level 5.

(Which, if we accept your premise, would make the minimum level for Artificer emulation level 3, but it would still be level 5 for everyone else)

[Story]

Uh, that's exactly what I said. Artificers get Fabricate at level 3.

The person who said level 2 earlier said it was a typo.

[thriceborn]

Nobody said that.



It appears to be your own invention.

If you're pointing the finger at me when then don't twist what I said.



Saying you don't need a spreadsheet, and then saying that you do need a document of some form to track everything in strikes me as a little bit contradictory. Yes, you can make lists of stuff in things other than spreadsheets.

It's not my own invention, but you didn't say it flat out, it was simply implied in wording, and I read it wrong.

I feel that you are being needlessly confrontational with what you're saying however, and I didn't twist what you said, I misinterpreted what you and another poster were discussing.

Spreadsheets=/=Document of somesort. A spreadsheet to tkae care of scrolls or most magic items, like wands, or any common magic item, would be asinine. Plus, you can always just... ya know, keep any weird magic items written down on your character sheet. The only reason I could see for using a spreadsheet would be a spell list, or a compilation of magic items you might not know right off the bat.

[Gavinfoxx]

Actually, you generally do need a Spreadsheet to do an Artificer, if only to calculate the costs of custom items, and calculate your gear, and the costs for things.

Remember, 1/3rd cost for mundane things, 1/6 for mundane poisons, at least 1/2 for magical things, possibly more if you have some of these feats:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7274

Also, when combining like-slotted items into a single item, multiply all but the most expensive part by 1.5x base cost, unless it is in the easy add list in the magic item compendium.

Also the various mundane benefits to the gear....

So yea, you DO need a spreadsheet, since you are stacking a bunch of different things and making dozens of different items (at least!) as you make the gear for the entire party!

[thriceborn]

Actually, you generally do need a Spreadsheet to do an Artificer, if only to calculate the costs of custom items, and calculate your gear, and the costs for things.

Remember, 1/3rd cost for mundane things, 1/6 for mundane poisons, at least 1/2 for magical things, possibly more if you have some of these feats:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7274

Also, when combining like-slotted items into a single item, multiply all but the most expensive part by 1.5x base cost, unless it is in the easy add list in the magic item compendium.

Also the various mundane benefits to the gear....

So yea, you DO need a spreadsheet, since you are stacking a bunch of different things and making dozens of different items (at least!) as you make the gear for the entire party!

See, I disagree about the always needing a spreadhseet, I can get by just fine doing the calculations well in advance, and just using a regular sheet of paper in meat space to do math on, plus it's not all that hard. And just denote any mundane benefit on your character sheet next to the item.

You really don't need a spreadsheet, just be able to use a low tech copy sheet of paper, and either your own brain or a calculator. And again, it's entirely too simple to just keep notes, and give the other party members the relevant notes to their items. You don't need a spreadsheet, you just need some form of note keeping, for lists and costs. Yeah, as far as general usefulness, a spreadsheet is easier, unless you do your prep work in class and have to use meatspace books and tech because your teacher won't let you pull out your laptop.

[Arcanist]

Even if we accept your premise, your number is wrong again. Trapsmith doesn't get third level spells off its list until level 5.

(Which, if we accept your premise, would make the minimum level for Artificer emulation level 3, but it would still be level 5 for everyone else)

I apologize, however as I said before "I'm not perfect." Meaning that the Artificer can emulate Fabricate at 3rd level (remember that +2 CL, yep! This is what it is for).

[Alienist]

I apologize, however as I said before "I'm not perfect." Meaning that the Artificer can emulate Fabricate at 3rd level (remember that +2 CL, yep! This is what it is for).

Now that we agree on the math we need to address the premise, which is incorrect because access to spells is never based on caster levels

[Story]

You keep saying that, but it doesn't make it RAW.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Everything in the Artificer text references Caster level, not actual level.

[Arcanist]

Now that we agree on the math we need to address the premise, which is incorrect because access to spells is never based on caster levels


Item Creation (Ex): An artificer can create a magic item even if he does not have access to the spells that are prerequisites for the item. The artificer must make a successful Use Magic Device check (DC 20 + caster level) to emulate each spell normally required to create the item. Thus, to make a 1st-level Wand Of Magic Missile/, an artificer would need a Use Magic Device check result of 21 or higher. To create a Bottle Of Air (caster level 7th), he would need a check result of 27 or higher to emulate the Water Breathing prerequisite.

The minimum requirement for being able to perform this (Create an Item) is based on minimum caster level and nothing else. It does not care for Spell level nor the class list all that matters is that it is a Spell that appears on a classes list. The Artificer can craft these items using the lowest possible caster level the spell would be available at and for Fabricate the lowest it would be available at would be Caster level 5 from the Trapsmith's spell list.

[Just to Browse]

Reading this thread is making me realize how underpowered any artificer I've ever written up has been.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

The minimum requirement for being able to perform this (Create an Item) is based on minimum caster level and nothing else. It does not care for Spell level nor the class list all that matters is that it is a Spell that appears on a classes list. The Artificer can craft these items using the lowest possible caster level the spell would be available at and for Fabricate the lowest it would be available at would be Caster level 5 from the Trapsmith's spell list.

Er. Not to play devils advocate, but the quoted text refers only to the skill check; if that were the only prerequisite, a 1st level artificer could make *any* item, so long as he could hit the check.

What we really need is the text for making wands...

[Arcanist]

Reading this thread is making me realize how underpowered any artificer I've ever written up has been.

Most people that play T1 classes don't really play to their most optimal level (capable of destroying the campaign for teh lulz). Those that do, will often find themselves kicked out of the table for "jerkish" behavior or bullied by the DM for making an optimal choice. To be even more blunt, such players don't get too play that much and just engage in Theorycraft on the forums; This of course does not apply to all forum goers, but those that this does apply to know who they are.


Er. Not to play devils advocate, but the quoted text refers only to the skill check; if that were the only prerequisite, a 1st level artificer could make *any* item, so long as he could hit the check.

What we really need is the text for making wands...

Perhaps I took it out of context, like I said, I don't know everything :smallconfused:


Item Creation (Ex): An artificer can create a magic item even if he does not have access to the spells that are prerequisites for the item. The artificer must make a successful Use Magic Device check (DC 20 + caster level) to emulate each spell normally required to create the item. Thus, to make a 1st-level Wand Of Magic Missile/, an artificer would need a Use Magic Device check result of 21 or higher. To create a Bottle Of Air (caster level 7th), he would need a check result of 27 or higher to emulate the Water Breathing prerequisite.

The artificer must make a successful check for each prerequisite for each item he makes. If he fails a check, he can try again each day until the item is complete. If he comes to the end of the crafting time and he has still not successfully emulated one of the powers, he can make one final check–his last-ditch effort, even if he has already made a check that day. If that check also fails, then the creation process fails and the time, money, and XP expended to craft the item are lost.

For purposes of meeting item prerequisites, an artificer's effective caster level equals his artificer level +2. If the item duplicates a spell effect, however, it uses the artificer's actual level as its caster level. Costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level or the artificer's actual level (if it is higher). Thus, a 3rd-level artificer can make a Scroll Of Fireball, since the minimum caster level for Fireball is 5th. He pays the normal cost for making such a scroll with a caster level of 5th: 5 × 3 × 12.5 = 187 gp and 5 sp, plus 15 XP. But the scroll's actual caster level is only 3rd, and it produces a weak fireball that deals only 3d6 points of damage.

I bolded, what I believe, is the relevant text. The class feature suggest that the Artificers caster level is relevant and must meet the requirements for the Items Caster level. Accordingly to replicate the item, the Item must have a minimum caster level equal to the highest level spell used for the item meaning that an Item with Mindblank and Prestidigitation, must have a minimum caster level of 17 because Mindblank is a 9th level spell.

Correct me as you would; By all means, play Devil's Advocate. :smallsmile: