Are liches worth the LA?

[RedDragons]

The classic age old question...


are liches worth the LA?

[SowZ]

Short answer: No.

[ArcturusV]

Slightly longer answer:

You generally do not want anything that, as a primary caster, will slow down your casting. I mean consider that people generally consider it RARELY worth it to enter a PrC with 8/10 Spellcaster Progression unless it gives you a huge, huge benefit.

And that's just losing two levels out.

Your power is directly based on how fast you can go up the spell levels. So anything that slows it down, much less a huge LA template, is not a great idea.

I mean it doesn't matter if you're immune to Stunning (Though Necropolitan could be worth it as its' not LA, just a level lost), or have a +8 to Spot or something. Your power is your spells, pure and simple.

[SowZ]

Slightly longer answer:

You generally do not want anything that, as a primary caster, will slow down your casting. I mean consider that people generally consider it RARELY worth it to enter a PrC with 8/10 Spellcaster Progression unless it gives you a huge, huge benefit.

And that's just losing two levels out.

Your power is directly based on how fast you can go up the spell levels. So anything that slows it down, much less a huge LA template, is not a great idea.

I mean it doesn't matter if you're immune to Stunning (Though Necropolitan could be worth it as its' not LA, just a level lost), or have a +8 to Spot or something. Your power is your spells, pure and simple.

An argument could be made that it is worth it on a Fighter because of all the defense, (regenerate from the dead, +5 AC, d12 HD with no con allows you to dump Con, fear aura, poison-mind effecting-polymorph immunity,) and the secondary natural attack/paralyzing touch. Though most of these things could be replicated by magic items with less investment then 4 levels. And without a way to apply another stat than Con to HP, you will take a huge Hit Point loss. And -4 BAB is pretty devastating, so I still say it's a raw deal, (also a RAW deal, I suppose.)

It is irrelevant though since you must be a caster. And no way is the benefit worth four caster and casting progression levels.

[ArcturusV]

Now a quasi-related question, as I'm digging through things and pondering:

Is the "Monster Classes" for Undead from Libris Mortis worth it?

[RedDragons]

Hmm secondary question..


Anyway to cheapen how much the Phylactery cost

[SowZ]

Now a quasi-related question, as I'm digging through things and pondering:

Is the "Monster Classes" for Undead from Libris Mortis worth it?

There are very few monster classes that are worth it. Are any of the LAs lower than the Hit Dice you have to take in Libris Mortis?

That being said, if you love the concept of one, (shoot if you love the concept of a lich!) go for it. Unless you have a high OP party, you should be fine. An 11th level Lich Wizard will still be very useful in the average 15th level party, for example. In fact, I might even encourage it for game balance.

[Chilingsworth]

Sure lich is worth it... if and only if you lichify yourself after you've gained 9th level (or better yet, Epic) spells. Then you can spellstich yourself for added funsies. :smallbiggrin:

Another way lich can be worth it (that overlaps with the former): 20th level dread necromancer.

[ArcturusV]

Well, other than the Vampire none of them are LA classes. Wights are LA: -, same with Ghouls, Ghasts, Mummies. Vampires have LA +8, and an 8 level progression.

So... weird. That's why it's hard for me to really judge. I mean I suppose if I could find a DM willing to let me run a Wight or something I might see with the on the table experience. But I never have. So I was pondering.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That being said, if you can get at Lich without the LA (dread necromancer, death master, walker of the waste for dry lich) you will find it to be a fairly useful template overall.

[SowZ]

Well, other than the Vampire none of them are LA classes. Wights are LA: -, same with Ghouls, Ghasts, Mummies. Vampires have LA +8, and an 8 level progression.

So... weird. That's why it's hard for me to really judge. I mean I suppose if I could find a DM willing to let me run a Wight or something I might see with the on the table experience. But I never have. So I was pondering.

Well, Wights have 4 LA built into the progression. You lose four HD, which means at least one less feat, one less ability adjustment, a massive hit to BAB, (you will have half the BAB of an equivalent level commoner, for comparison,) and bad hit points. Yes, your HD are d12, but you only get four of them. It is the equivalent of getting d6s every level for ten levels with a Con of ten. Your HP could be worse, but it is still bad.

Yeah, the class has feats and ability bumps. But those don't replace the feat/ability point lost because of HD penalties since the bonus feats are in lieu of real class features. You also lose out of Skill points. You could have fewer skill points than a fighter eventually.

So, compared to a fighter:

You lose: 4 BAB, 5+Con mod Fortitude, 2 Reflex, 4 feats, an ability adjustment, 18+Conx8 Hit Points, 4 Hit Dice, an ability point, availability of Fighter Bonus Feats

You gain: +4 Cha, +2 Wis, +2 Str, a bad slam attack, energy drain, create spawn, +1 Will, +4 Natural Armor

Extra: Undead traits. Over all, the benefits probably outweigh the negatives unless you could afford all the good stuff in magic items. Still, there are other ways to get undead.

When it looks like the class might be losing out to the Fighter, there is a problem.

Not to mention bad saves, (losing four levels is a big hit to saves.)

[RedDragons]

Hmm true to all of the above, but I will be taking the Good,Lich selection from Monsters of Faerun, which basically is like Immunity to turning from Good/Neutral clerics , water walking, animate undead at will.


Or go the Baelorn route , and fully ignore the need of a buying myself a Phylactery and project myself for miles around, and cast spells all willy nilly.



---ontop of the normal lich stuff---

[Waspinator]

Well, one cheesy answer would depend on the length of the current campaign. If you know you're not going to have time to level up much more, you might as well go lich.

[Golden Ladybug]

Its very stylish, even if its not particularly good mechanically.

However, if you can persuade your DM to let you stretch the rules ever so slightly, you can technically become a Lich by taking Craft Wondrous Item and meeting the Caster Level with a SLA, and taking the Magical Training feat (PGtF). And if they're really crazy, you might be able to convince them to allow you to take Faerie Mysteries Initiate to get Int to HP.

Swashbuckler's can pick up SLAs with their Daring Stunt ACF, and get Int to damage... this might have some potential :smallamused:

[lord_khaine]

Now a quasi-related question, as I'm digging through things and pondering:

Is the "Monster Classes" for Undead from Libris Mortis worth it?

They are not worth it powerwise compared to just taking PHB classes or races, because the lost HD is just to big of a loss.

[The Viscount]

Now a quasi-related question, as I'm digging through things and pondering:

Is the "Monster Classes" for Undead from Libris Mortis worth it?

Usually not. The worst offendor on that list is the Ghoul/Ghast class. The class is 8 levels long and only gives you 4 HD, so effective LA +4. In the very same book the gravetouched ghoul template is presented, a template with LA +2. The only thing you lose is stench, which isn't really that great


Hmm secondary question..


Anyway to cheapen how much the Phylactery cost

Easiest way I know of is Dread Necromancer 20. Free Phylactery.

[Story]

If you want to play Undead, just go Necropolitan. All the fun of undead traits with no LA or RHD.

LA is pretty much never worth it on a caster, unless you can buy it off, and even then, buyoff is only practical for LA+1 or 2.

[Icewraith]

Also: Gestalt
(If you can take the LA on one side)

[Keneth]

1) Use Pathfinder templates
2) Suffer no LA (but face tougher challenges)
3) ???
4) Win the game

LA is about as retarded as XP penalty for multiclassing.

P.S.: Take Dodge in order to avoid rulebooks.

[KoboldCleric]

Your power is directly based on how fast you can go up the spell levels. So anything that slows it down, much less a huge LA template, is not a great idea.

I mean it doesn't matter if you're immune to Stunning (Though Necropolitan could be worth it as its' not LA, just a level lost), or have a +8 to Spot or something. Your power is your spells, pure and simple.

Xykon (and probably V) disagrees with you (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html)

[Story]

P.S.: Take Dodge in order to avoid rulebooks.

You mean Midnight Dodge, right? Surely you wouldn't suggest actually taking regular Dodge?

Also, Xykon is an idiot and OOTS is about as far as you can get from optimized anyway.

[Toy Killer]

I've played a Wight before. While Admittedly, we weren't power gaming to any degree, I was still pretty much on par with the rest of the party. It was a sandbox game, and as long as you play 'corrupt genie' with orders given to the wight spawns and give the player an option not to raise spawns standard, it's pretty fun.

[elonin]

The monster progression classes in LM advance BAB and saves to some degree. so even if it is the same number of levels as the LA it is a better deal.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The Monster Classes do let you play things you normally would not be able to. Being a mohrg just once is cool. If you just want to be undead gravetouched ghoul is an excellent template.

[Keneth]

You mean Midnight Dodge, right? Surely you wouldn't suggest actually taking regular Dodge?

Dodge gives you a flat +1 dodge bonus in PF. If you're snatching templates from there, you might as well pick up the updated Dodge as well. :smallbiggrin: