Schism and spells

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay, so I've got a multiclass Psion (Telepath) theurge1.

He's got Manifester level 11 (manifester class level 7 + Practised Manifester) and Schism, which allows him effectively Manifester level 5 for Schismed powers and purely mental actions. He's got Eschew Materials (a house-rule replacement class feature for one of the Wizard level 1 class features (it could have been either, he's swapped out both Scribe Scroll and Summon Familiar.)).

So then, through his Schism he could theoretically cast spells with it, provided they are purely mental actions. With magic/psi transparency, extrapolating, he could use up to level 3 spells (same as the powers he could manifest). If then, I gave him Silent and Still Spell, that would thus allow him the ability to cast 1st level spells (higher if they only have one component, like say level 2 Dimension Hop's purely verbal component)) through his Schism.

This would theoretically, then allow him to throw reasonably useful utility spells on top of his normal actions; e.g. the aforementioned Dimension Hop or something like Inflict Light Wounds2 (he's Undead) on himself every round as an another option to just using it for his powers.

Does this sound like a reasonable?

(Admittely, I first followed this line of though because I'd forgotten Practised Manifester and was thinking he could only Schism 1st level powers which aren't that useful.)



1Actually a Psion 1/Archivist 1/Wizard 1/MT 3/ Cerebremancer 3/Psychic Theurge 3 (PrC requirements have been houseruled to allow entry at level 3) if we want to get specific, but that's neither here nor there. (And no, before anyone suggests it (again...!) I'm not going to use Erudite and I'm aware there may be better ways to optimise this. He's a Bad Guy and I'm trying NOT to overwhelm the PCs.)

2Again houserules have buffed the Cure/Inflict lines to the point they actually matter as in combat healing (to at maximum CLs 3 /5+3D8 /10+5D8 /15+7D8 /20+10D8 /15+7D8 /30+10D8 / 35+13D8/ 40+15D8) on the basis that they should be healing/dealing at the very least the sort of damage that attack spells of the same level are inflicting...

[Psyren]

Your schism can indeed cast Still Silent spells on your behalf, as well as use SLAs, use supernatural abilities, contemplate your navel, issue mental commands (including command thoughts, such as to activate a dorje), regain your focus, anything that you would only need a mental standard action to do.

Your caster level for these spells will actually be unaffected by Schism's typical -6 reduction. This is because the reduction only applies to "powers manifested with your power point reserve" - spells, even purely mental ones, do not use your power point reserve and thus are not subject to this additional limitation.

Your villain's various levels are as follows:

1) Manifester level 11 (Psion 1, Cer 3, PT 3, PM +4)
2) Arcane CL 7 (Wiz 1, MT 3, Cer 3, no mention of Practiced Spellcaster)
3) Divine CL 7 (Arch 1, MT 3, PT 3, no mention of Practiced Spellcaster.)
4) Schismed ML 5 (-6 reduction)
5) Schismed Arcane CL 7 (see above, purely mental only)
6) Schismed Divine CL 7 (see above, purely mental only)

[Aotrs Commander]

Your schism can indeed cast Still Silent spells on your behalf, as well as use SLAs, use supernatural abilities, contemplate your navel, issue mental commands (including command thoughts, such as to activate a dorje), regain your focus, anything that you would only need a mental standard action to do.

Your caster level for these spells will actually be unaffected by Schism's typical -6 reduction. This is because the reduction only applies to "powers manifested with your power point reserve" - spells, even purely mental ones, do not use your power point reserve and thus are not subject to this additional limitation.

Your villain's various levels are as follows:

1) Manifester level 11 (Psion 1, Cer 3, PT 3, PM +4)
2) Arcane CL 7 (Wiz 1, MT 3, Cer 3, no mention of Practiced Spellcaster)
3) Divine CL 7 (Arch 1, MT 3, PT 3, no mention of Practiced Spellcaster.)
4) Schismed ML 5 (-6 reduction)
5) Schismed Arcane CL 7 (see above, purely mental only)
6) Schismed Divine CL 7 (see above, purely mental only)

Interesting...

By the same wording logic, then, a Silent, Still, Eschew Materials spell would still provoke an AoO (or require defensive casting) on that basis, because it's a spell, not a power. (Unless it was ever stated anywhere that such a spell doesn't provoke normally, though the PHB seems quiet on the matter after a quick glance - Rules Compendium maybe?)

(The NPC does have Practised Spellcaster for both spell caster classes, by the by.)

I think that's a reasonable trade off, then. (After all, silent/still/eschew materials doesn't by any means invisible! And I am of the "casting a spell males all the cool shiny lights like in Baldur's Gate etc" school...)

(Also might be the sort of nasty little trick I was aiming for with this combination!)

[Psyren]

By the same wording logic, then, a Silent, Still, Eschew Materials spell would still provoke an AoO (or require defensive casting) on that basis, because it's a spell, not a power. (Unless it was ever stated anywhere that such a spell doesn't provoke normally, though the PHB seems quiet on the matter after a quick glance - Rules Compendium maybe?)

Powers, componentless spells and SLAs provoke AoO normally; the XPH (and MM, I believe) have a fluff line about you being distracted momentarily while activating them. Only supernatural abilities do not provoke, as they do not require any concentration at all.



(The NPC does have Practised Spellcaster for both spell caster classes, by the by.)

Then revise both arcane and both divine caster levels in my previous post to 11.



I think that's a reasonable trade off, then. (After all, silent/still/eschew materials doesn't by any means invisible! And I am of the "casting a spell males all the cool shiny lights like in Baldur's Gate etc" school...)

(Also might be the sort of nasty little trick I was aiming for with this combination!)

Your targets can also identify such spells by:
1) Seeing their effects (including after the fact, by reading its aura with Detect Magic or similar)
2) Making a saving throw vs. a spell you've cast (whether or not you needed verbal or somatic components to cast it.)

See the Spellcraft skill entry for details.

[Vaz]

Using your Build, you'd have ML11, so ML5, and through transparency, CL5. A Still Silent Spell is +2 Spell slots; which as a Wizard 7 means he can cast 2nd level spells as a Mental Action.

If he had some Alternate Form (Hengeyokai from the Dragon Update?) and took Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species which is essentially free Silent and Stilled spell then he could easily do it with 4th's.

If I'm reading Affinity Field correctly, you can use Schism to Affinity Field Inflict on yourself, thereby damaging everyone within range as some form of Damage Over Time.

[Psyren]

Using your Build, you'd have ML11, so ML5, and through transparency, CL5.

Transparency wouldn't apply to Schismed non-powers in this case. This is because Schism is so specific in what the reduction applies to, and thus trumps the general transparency rule. (This is similar to other psionics-specific effects, like Catapsi; Catapsi doesn't prevent spellcasting for instance.)

[Vaz]

According to transparency in the XPH it states if it affects powers it affects spells. Using that same rule would stop AoO as well. There is no breach in the General rule here.

[Aotrs Commander]

Powers, componentless spells and SLAs provoke AoO normally; the XPH (and MM, I believe) have a fluff line about you being distracted momentarily while activating them. Only supernatural abilities do not provoke, as they do not require any concentration at all.

That's what I thought, then. Jolly good! Cheers.


According to transparency in the XPH it states if it affects powers it affects spells. Using that same rule would stop AoO as well. There is no breach in the General rule here.

I'm willing to go with Psyren on this (it is, I'll grant you, a point, that could be debated - there's a bit of RAI vrs RAW there, I think), on the basis that it means that Schismed powers have the big advantage that they don't provoke, whereas as Schismed spells would.

It's basically giving the Schism spells a completely free Quickened Power (with the only "cost" being reduced level-based effects, which are fairly minimal in comparison to spells because of augments taking that role.)

Plus, as it doesn't provoke, (if the display is suppressed) there is no reason that the PCs might even know a power had been activated!

The other thing is that (as usual, written without thinking about transparency!) as written, the restriction on ML affects the level of powers you can throw as well as your augmentation and level-based stats, whereas caster level would only do the latter (and potentially puts you in a position where you could be throwing spells below their minimum caster level if you don't have Practised Spellcaster). Which is a bit messy for me (something I'd not considered until now, even with my own interpretation in the OP.)

[Vaz]

I've played a game where they use "Psionics is different"; using the Diminished Effect. It means a Dragon is no longer Instagibbed by not having Spell Resistance against Cranial Deluge say; but Cranial Deluge is a better counter than a Disintegrate or whatever.

It's more fun, and a little "right tool for the job" and lowers the abilities of Casters.

I will note that in the game, StP Erudites were told to go where the sun don't shine.

[Psyren]

According to transparency in the XPH it states if it affects powers it affects spells. Using that same rule would stop AoO as well. There is no breach in the General rule here.

I know what the transparency rule is. I also understand the source of your confusion. The issue is that Schism, by RAW, only reduces the ML of powers that require access to your power point reserve.


Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is.

If a pure psion or other manifester uses Schism, and uses their second mind to activate a psi-like ability, supernatural ability, or any other technique that does not use their own power points, the reduction in ML won't apply. You can even use power points from an item (such as a cognizance crystal, or the points stored in a psicrown) and not be subject to the reduction by RAW.

Which brings us to transparency. Transparency works by substituting "spell" wherever you would see "power" in a given power's entry, as well as the reverse in a spell's entry, because transparency considers them to be equivalent. The problem arises from the phrases "power points" and "power point reserve" - the default Vancian spell system has no equivalent for these. This is why, again, powers like Catapsi and Bestow Power do not help or hinder spellcasters in any way, even under full transparency; there is simply no translation under the system for what these powers do. Bestow Power won't restore spell slots to a wizard, and Catapsi won't prevent a cleric from casting spells.

Because there is no equivalent for "power point reserve," that phrase would remain unchanged in a substituted Schism entry. So you would end up with: "Your second mind can cast spells using your power point reserve, but only as if your caster level were six lower than it is."

So if you cast any spells using your power point reserve, they would indeed be cast at -6 CL. But there are no spells in the game that do this.

To take advantage of this loophole, however, you need spells that are purely mental - still and silent, with no material component to manipulate (or one already in hand.) This cuts down on what can be done with this trick.