Cookies, also a potential Caster Nerf Bat.

[Regal Kain]

Ok, so first let me pre-cursor all of this in bold large text one moment. :: Grabs bigger marker.::

Feel free to critic, let's keep the hate to a minimum. And feel free to give input, we're not trying to slam anyone, or anything with this idea. Just trying to bring a bit of balance to our campaign

Thank you for reading that, that being said, let me get to the idea at hand, as I said, we came here for constructive criticism, and to ask GITP's opinion, mostly cause you guys are awesome and can figure out weak points in something faster then any other board I know of.

We were debating how broken Casters can be in the right-hands, the problem with this really, comes in, that three of us at the table are familliar with D&D, it's mechanics etc and know quite a few powerful spell combos to make them really bad. Two of our players have no idea, they play for the fun and don't optimize at all. We were worried that if we ran an Epic level campaign, these two would die horribly to casters so we came up with an idea to "balance" casters in some way.

A new skill (Everyone is considered to have it as a class skill, we're also re-working skill points for alot of the classes that don't get many.) called Spell Bulwark, this is a passive skill (You don't roll it) it plays off of your Con (In the case you have no Con score, it plays off of Wisdom, or Cha for the undead who have that feat.) it gives you SR per rank in it. This is where it gets funky, we were debating making it so SR applies to everything, yes everything, healing, arcane, divine all of it.

For now let me break it down in a more organized fashion.:
Full Transparency (Psion and Spells are interchangable in all ways so SR works for Psionic abilities)
Spells, Spell-Like Abilities, Supernatural Abilities that emulate spells, extraoridinary abilities that emulate spells.
Psionic abilities as above.
New Material to make gear out of, called Aegis. Aegis:
The material is treated with spells and a special substance to increase it's resilience to magic, and psionic power.
Increases Arcane failure chance by 50%, adds a 15% failure chance on all other forms of spells/spell-likes as per above. This cannot be lowered or removed by things such as the feats Armored Mage etc, Aegis is a material, as such you cannot have a Mithril Aegis item to lower it.
Increases the ACP penatly by -1, -2, -3 for Light, Medium and Heavy armor respectively. Lowers the dex bonus from armor by 1, 2 and 3 the same as ACP.

Gives you SR equal to twice the armor amount granted by the armor. (Fullplate would give you 16 SR PAdded would give you 2) This does not increase as you boost your enhancement bonus on the gear (A +3 Fullplate doesn't give you 22 SR, it's still 16). Shields apply it different, a shield grants 10 SR, a Tower shield grants 15 SR. Light weapons made of Aegis grant 5 SR, Normal weapons grant 10 SR.

The cost for this material is the same as adamantine, the weight increases by half again. (Fullplate weighs 75LBs)

This doubles the price for enhancements on whatever it is placed on. (So a +1 Flaming Aegis Long Sword, would be 19,115. 3K from Aegis, 16K from Enhancements)

To give a quick example of what we had in mind as we were theory-crafting.
Dwarven Paladin! Has an 18 Con so it's a +4, is Level 10, so he has 13 ranks in Spell Bulwark, is using Aegis Full Plate, with an Aegis Tower Shield.
This grants him a total of 45 SR (10 Ranks, 4 Con, 16AFP, 15 Towershield)

A Wizard also 10th level, has 18 INT (Though we thought it was pretty low, we were keeping it at the same level) his roll to pierce SR at this point is only 14+ 1d20, in otherwords he'll never pierce this Dwarf's SR except with a Natural 20. Unless he has feats to pierce SR.

This SR is a double-edged sword though, because if a Cleric tries to heal his Dwarven Paladin friend, he has to pierce his buddies SR, the Paladin whenever he tries to say, Turn Undead, or Smite Evil etc, has a 15% chance of his powers failing him. So he is an amazing Mage Slayer, he's relatively much slower then an agile fighter, it's going to make him bankrupt to put any real enhancements on his gear.

We'd like input, and my apologies if this is an incredibly bad idea and you guys see a bucket of flaws when you read it. That's why we brought it here afterall. We'd like to see if we can make it so that Casters have to try to effect others with their spells.

Edits: Fixing Typoes

[Urpriest]

SR already applies to Cure Light Wounds and the like. Are you planning to apply SR to things that it doesn't already apply to? Because most spells that don't allow SR do so because they harm the target indirectly, which is going to make it next to impossible to make a mechanic that applies SR to them without it being silly. ("My opponent was buffed with Haste? The caster has to roll SR against me, otherwise I they don't get their extra attack!")

Where did you get the numbers for various SR values on Aegis stuff? They seem high, and don't seem correlated with anything in particular.

[Karnith]

So, can you elaborate what you mean by "SR applies to everything?" Are you giving all spells SR: Yes, are you just referencing that players with Spell Resistance will have to deal with it, or what?

Related to the above, if you're using the standard D&D rules on spells and spell resistance, I'm not seeing much of a defense against spells that don't allow spell resistance. Spells with SR: No are usually pretty high on casters' list of favorite spells.

Also, if a fighter-type uses Aegis gear, it's going to bankrupt him pretty quickly, which will make it difficult for him to get the other necessary gear (items of true seeing, flight, teleportation, freedom of movement, etc.), so they will probably have to choose between being immune to spells (that allow spell resistance), or between being able to engage the enemy.

[Zero grim]

Hmmm, adding a huge amount of spell resistance (which apparently stacks) would stop a lot of casters from directly effecting other characters but if this is designed to balance out epic or high level play its too much money for a simple solution for the casters part.

all casters have to do is not target the super dwarf or whatever else directly, in the same way you are intended to fight Golem's, either buff yourself up so you are a better combatant then the dwarf or just surround him with walls of force/lift the ground he's standing on into the sky/Teleport away and ignore his 20ft move speed.

the balancing tool for spell casters in my opinion is use magic device, this allows anyone who has spent time training and a bit of gold cast any spell from any list without much restriction. (at high levels money is meaningless when your more powerful then anyone who would stop you from robbing merchants)

eventually it would also be cheaper for a necklace of anti magic field that triggers on a command word (118,800g), this also would also stop mages from buffing themselves near you or by trying to stop you with most battlefield control.

Magic is powerful, but never rely on a power source that can be defeated by bestow curse almost permanently (whenever you are in a quite place a bee will appear and sting you)

[Regal Kain]

More it was just theory-crafting last night, yes we intend to apply SR to all things.


("My opponent was buffed with Haste? The caster has to roll SR against me, otherwise I they don't get their extra attack!")

I could see that RAW would imply things like this, but the Opponent would have to roll any ACF (They don't impose an SR upon themselves.) the spell effects their being, their actions past that effect the enemy. Though I'll have to think of a way to word it so things like this aren't misleading etc thanks.


The intention was to stop some of the crazy stuff that can happen later on with chained powerful spells etc, and to make it so Mageslayers can exsist.

The values are relatively high (Albeit for FullPlate and a Tower Shield) due to making it so you can have a reasonable amount of SR later on in levels.

Edit: We've already agreed no getting an item that gives you a +20 competence bonus on SR, or a +5,10,15,3 etc. Has to be ranks and Aegis made gear.

[SilverLeaf167]

Giving everyone very high SR (as in, unreasonably high in that example you gave, though it's a pretty extreme one) doesn't really fix casters at all. Most self-respecting wizards, for example, should already have a large repertoire of spells that simply ignore SR, like most Conjuration spells. All this would do is
a. make any spellcaster that doesn't want to over-optimize himself totally useless
b. annoy the hell out of party-friendly casters who want to focus on buffs
Also the skill would be unreasonably strong on monsters, which typically have way more HD than casters of equivalent level have CL. Not only that, but skills can be very easily buffed in general.

I don't think it's a good idea. A little better with lower numbers, maybe, but still, making the stronger classes useless in turn doesn't really help the game balance.

EDIT: Swordsage'd on some things.

[Regal Kain]

So, can you elaborate what you mean by "SR applies to everything?" Are you giving all spells SR: Yes, are you just referencing that players with Spell Resistance will have to deal with it, or what?

Related to the above, if you're using the standard D&D rules on spells and spell resistance, I'm not seeing much of a defense against spells that don't allow spell resistance. Spells with SR: No are usually pretty high on casters' list of favorite spells.

Also, if a fighter-type uses Aegis gear, it's going to bankrupt him pretty quickly, which will make it difficult for him to get the other necessary gear (items of true seeing, flight, teleportation, freedom of movement, etc.), so they will probably have to choose between being immune to spells (that allow spell resistance), or between being able to engage the enemy.

SR will appliy to everything, even spells that normall don't allow SR to apply to them. I realize that yes you are going to go bankrupt, that's the balance in it, we could make it so enhancement bonuses aren't doubled, but that it feels like it's to easy an option for fighters.


Hmmm, adding a huge amount of spell resistance (which apparently stacks) would stop a lot of casters from directly effecting other characters but if this is designed to balance out epic or high level play its too much money for a simple solution for the casters part.

all casters have to do is not target the super dwarf or whatever else directly, in the same way you are intended to fight Golem's, either buff yourself up so you are a better combatant then the dwarf or just surround him with walls of force/lift the ground he's standing on into the sky/Teleport away and ignore his 20ft move speed.

the balancing tool for spell casters in my opinion is use magic device, this allows anyone who has spent time training and a bit of gold cast any spell from any list without much restriction. (at high levels money is meaningless when your more powerful then anyone who would stop you from robbing merchants)


Albeit yes, the caster could just wall of force around him, levitate him up and ignore him. That being said, you didn't kill your enemy, just stopped him from getting to you for awhile.

The UMD thing, makes it so everyone is a caster, something else we were trying to avoid, we realize caster beats caster, we were trying to get away from some of that idealology.

[Zero grim]

Killing your enemy is very rarely the only solution to a problem, if the dwarf is charging to fight you and you imprison him underground under a mountain you used epic magic to make, or even just teleport some boulders on top of him, he might not be dead but he's defeated.

if your trying to beat casters without being casters yourself then your stuck with master work gear made from aegis, anything above that and your just getting casters to make your gear better, primarily D&D is a game about magic, trying to "balance" how magic works with mundane or low magic means in D&D I find is harder then just playing in a non-magical game to begin with.

The main problem I think most people would have with the SR approach is that instead of making mage's have to try harder to overcome it, your just making non mage's have to pay out the nose for magical protection that also hinders them.

perhaps instead have wild magic in effect at all time (manual of the planes 14) there could be an all powerful lich that has cursed the world to feel his wrath and the party could have to undo this calamity, it would impact spell casters in a way that is already excepted by the rules and would hinder your non casters at all.

[ahenobarbi]

Sounds like a trap. This would stop many (not all, it's possible to make caster level extremely high) spellcasters from influencing you directly. But huge cost would also make it harder for you to do anything to caster. While caster can lock you somewhere. And return next day with methods to finish you without direct magic (call some f(r)iends).

[Regal Kain]

Perhaps, but you don't really have to have everything you own made out of Aegis, keep a healthy balance there you know? Wizards can also get a few feats etc to get higher and better Spell Pen.

[Urpriest]

More it was just theory-crafting last night, yes we intend to apply SR to all things.

I could see that RAW would imply things like this, but the Opponent would have to roll any ACF (They don't impose an SR upon themselves.) the spell effects their being, their actions past that effect the enemy. Though I'll have to think of a way to word it so things like this aren't misleading etc thanks.

Ok, then give me an example. Tell me a spell that doesn't apply SR now that would apply SR under your rules.


The values are relatively high (Albeit for FullPlate and a Tower Shield) due to making it so you can have a reasonable amount of SR later on in levels.


High is potentially fine. What I'm asking is, where did you get those specific numbers?

[Regal Kain]

Ok, then give me an example. Tell me a spell that doesn't apply SR now that would apply SR under your rules.

It's not so much a specific spell scenario, it's more saying it applies to all spells/spell-likes etc stops people from finding a spell in some splat book I've never heard of and going "But it doesn't allow spell resistance! " from happening, because SR applies to everything.



High is potentially fine. What I'm asking is, where did you get those specific numbers?


And those specific numbers are off the top of my head in the thirty minutes or so we talked about it last night.

[Urpriest]

It's not so much a specific spell scenario, it's more saying it applies to all spells/spell-likes etc stops people from finding a spell in some splat book I've never heard of and going "But it doesn't allow spell resistance! " from happening, because SR applies to everything.


You misunderstand my question. Are there any spells, that you are currently aware of, that this would apply to? Can you give an example? I want to understand what you mean by this rule, because clearly it doesn't actually apply to every spell whatsoever.

As for the numbers, I'd try to balance them on the idea that a character who puts effort into this should be able to resist casters of their level some set percentage of the time, increasing based on how much effort they put in. Try to figure out how much resistance you're aiming for, then adjust Aegis numbers to that.

[Grimm2769]

Example spell; one of the Orb of X spells that if I am remembering correctly are a touch attack with no save and no SR. this spell SR system would make it apply even to spells like that. Numbers I would say are arbitrary at the moment and being used as part of a test for crunching the effects and may be scaled up or down depending on results. goal is to make casters actually have to try to hit people not just chain spells with fell or the various other things. Big thing would also be DM will be moderating this to keep it from getting truly out of hand and to avoid RAW and RAI issues, seeing as with the base game he/she already has to sort that out.

Also I would assume as always that a creature with SR can take a Standard Action to lower it for a specific spell.

I think the balance should be where optional SR makes it so that caster are still very strong yet if setup correctly you can actually try to take on a caster at epic levels with a non-caster and stand a solid chance at beating them. Or even at just close to 20. Cause let's be honest here. 9th levels spells, epic level spells, and even 5-8th level spells are what make most solid casters tier 1 and everyone else a cute joke. Not to say MM or even regular 0-4th levels spells aren't as good. just focusing on the higher ones.

[Keneth]

There is no healthy balance between SR that is helpful and SR that is a hindrance, you either stack it high or you forget about it. A lot of the spellcasters' arsenal isn't subject to SR and most of the buffers' spells are, so you're effectively crippling yourself more than you're trying to stop the casters.

You want to nerf spellcasting? Make the casting time of (most) spells take 1 round per spell level and give the casters some semi-effective standard action options (like basic eldritch blast). It won't stop longer lasting buffs that are pre-cast but it makes all in-combat spellcasting tactical and dramatic. This also means the spellcaster is pretty much precluded from doing anything other than moving while they're casting, which doesn't sit well with some people, but our group didn't have any problems with that. It's easy to drop some black tentacles and then clean up the floor if it's a standard action, but when you're choosing between black tentacles (4 rounds), shifting sand (3 rounds), web (2 rounds), or entangle (1 round), it's a different matter entirely.

I've literally seen dozens of "how to fix spellcasters" threads and everyone's got an opinion on how it should be done. All or none of them might work to a point, depending on the group. But the simple fact is, you can't fix the spellcasters with a simple patch or two, even if they're drastic, you would need to rebuild the class system from the ground up.

[navar100]

Admit to yourself you hate magic already and play some other game.

[Regal Kain]

You misunderstand my question. Are there any spells, that you are currently aware of, that this would apply to? Can you give an example? I want to understand what you mean by this rule, because clearly it doesn't actually apply to every spell whatsoever.

As for the numbers, I'd try to balance them on the idea that a character who puts effort into this should be able to resist casters of their level some set percentage of the time, increasing based on how much effort they put in. Try to figure out how much resistance you're aiming for, then adjust Aegis numbers to that.

Oh my apologies, off the top of my head? Say Acid Fog, creates fog akin to a solid fog spell, but also does 2d6 acid damage to each creature within it (Per round if IIRC) It doesn't allow SR, or a Saving Throw, now with this SR in place, obviously your SR doesn't stop the effects of the fog itself ( obscuring vision for instance) but does stop the damage of the fog. If that makes sense. Another example is Acid Splash, or Acid Orb, forget which it's called, a tiny spell that only does like 1d4, or 1d3 of acid damage, but doesn't allow for SR

I'll admit the numbers aren't hard-balanaced at present, this is more theory-crafting and once I have the other issues ironed out a bit more, I'll take and actually sit down and try to get solid SR values for everything.


Numbers I would say are arbitrary at the moment and being used as part of a test for crunching the effects and may be scaled up or down depending on results. goal is to make casters actually have to try to hit people not just chain spells with fell or the various other things. Big thing would also be DM will be moderating this to keep it from getting truly out of hand and to avoid RAW and RAI issues, seeing as with the base game he/she already has to sort that out.

Also I would assume as always that a creature with SR can take a Standard Action to lower it for a specific spell.

I think the balance should be where optional SR makes it so that caster are still very strong yet if setup correctly you can actually try to take on a caster at epic levels with a non-caster and stand a solid chance at beating them. Or even at just close to 20. Cause let's be honest here. 9th levels spells, epic level spells, and even 5-8th level spells are what make most solid casters tier 1 and everyone else a cute joke. Not to say MM or even regular 0-4th levels spells aren't as good. just focusing on the higher ones. Pretty much this, exactly.

You can lower the SR from your ranks of Spell Bulwark (That being training, natural resilience or toughening etc against spells that you know how to shift and manipulate.) I don't imagine it'd make sense to allow you to do that for armor, but we'll work on that as well, as that might make more sense.

The point of it, is, so that Wizard's do have a bit more penalty then they do presently, and have things to actually worry about. Top that off with the fact this would (hopefully) make Wizards think a little more outside the box when handing a problem, or trying to deal with a situation.



You want to nerf spellcasting? Make the casting time of (most) spells take 1 round per spell level and give the casters some semi-effective standard action options (like basic eldritch blast). It won't stop longer lasting buffs that are pre-cast but it makes all in-combat spellcasting tactical and dramatic. This also means the spellcaster is pretty much precluded from doing anything other than moving while they're casting, which doesn't sit well with some people, but our group didn't have any problems with that. It's easy to drop some black tentacles and then clean up the floor if it's a standard action, but when you're choosing between black tentacles (4 rounds), shifting sand (3 rounds), web (2 rounds), or entangle (1 round), it's a different matter entirely.

I actually like that way of working things, albeit you'd have to re-write the better part (Or all) of the spell list to take into account for things like this. (You'd also have to re-work alot of magic items I'd imagine, especially if they emulate some form of spell that takes X more rounds to cast now.) Otherwise you'd fall into the UMD trap I think.


There is no healthy balance between SR that is helpful and SR that is a hindrance, you either stack it high or you forget about it. A lot of the spellcasters' arsenal isn't subject to SR and most of the buffers' spells are, so you're effectively crippling yourself more than you're trying to stop the casters.


What spells are you talking about in this Arsenal that aren't subject to SR? This idea was more to make it slightly easier for the martial classes to get SR, and to try and patch over any loopholes for people finding a spell or two that allow for now SR. Though I can agree it is a hinderance, that's partially the point, if you want to tra-la-la your way through a wizard's fireball, or ray spell, or X you have to realize you are hurting your buffer's ability to help you mid-fight.

[Regal Kain]

Admit to yourself you hate magic already and play some other game.

This was kind of the "hate" that I wanted to avoid. I don't hate magic at all. I dislike the balance in the game currently that weighs it so if you aren't a caster at high levels, you are more or less useless. I enjoy D&D because it has alot of material to work with, it has alot of concepts in it that are interesting, but if you have a wizard in the party that plays well, and knows what they are doing? Right now there's nothing to stop that wizard from running the entire party and show, except another Caster, then your fighters, monks, barbarians etc feel more or less useless.

Of course that's my opinion, please don't assume I hate magic, it's quite the opposite, I just want to see it balanced so it's not broken.

Edit: Sorry for the double-post! ^_^

[Urpriest]

Example spell; one of the Orb of X spells that if I am remembering correctly are a touch attack with no save and no SR. this spell SR system would make it apply even to spells like that. Numbers I would say are arbitrary at the moment and being used as part of a test for crunching the effects and may be scaled up or down depending on results. goal is to make casters actually have to try to hit people not just chain spells with fell or the various other things. Big thing would also be DM will be moderating this to keep it from getting truly out of hand and to avoid RAW and RAI issues, seeing as with the base game he/she already has to sort that out.

Ok, so let's say we're talking about the Orb line. The Orb line is a line of spells that creates a mundane glob of material which is then tossed at a target, much like Glitterdust. Hail of Stone is basically the same concept, just rocks rather than elemental stuff or glitter. So you probably have to apply SR to the damage from Hail of Stone, or the blinding from Glitterdust.

Those are still relatively straightforward to visualize, but only because damage isn't something anyone visualizes, and the blinding from Glitterdust is a will save so everyone thinks it's magical anyway. So apply it to something else.

What about Blizzard? There are lots of spells that create snow. If they offered SR, what would it mean if the caster failed to pierce SR? Could you walk through the snow as if it wasn't there? Would you fall through it?

What about a Wall of Iron? A Wall of Iron can fall on people to deal damage, just like Hail of Stone. It's also a wall of solid iron. Does resisting that mean you can walk through the wall? If not, why is it falling on you any different?

Suppose that someone makes the iron from Wall of Iron into a ball, then dumps it on you. Does it still offer SR? What about if it is Fabricated into a sword? Is there some sort of time limit?

Once you start allowing SR for things that don't allow SR, the rules get silly. This is because, bizarrely enough, the spells that allow SR are chosen because they happen to be the spells that make sense allowing SR.

Edit:

Oh my apologies, off the top of my head? Say Acid Fog, creates fog akin to a solid fog spell, but also does 2d6 acid damage to each creature within it (Per round if IIRC) It doesn't allow SR, or a Saving Throw, now with this SR in place, obviously your SR doesn't stop the effects of the fog itself ( obscuring vision for instance) but does stop the damage of the fog. If that makes sense. Another example is Acid Splash, or Acid Orb, forget which it's called, a tiny spell that only does like 1d4, or 1d3 of acid damage, but doesn't allow for SR

Ok, see, the problem here is that you're viewing damage as somehow more magical than the other effects of the spell. What makes the acid damage special, as compared to the visual impairment?

[Regal Kain]

Ok, so let's say we're talking about the Orb line. The Orb line is a line of spells that creates a mundane glob of material which is then tossed at a target, much like Glitterdust. Hail of Stone is basically the same concept, just rocks rather than elemental stuff or glitter. So you probably have to apply SR to the damage from Hail of Stone, or the blinding from Glitterdust.

I had originally looked at Glitterdust as well and thought "Would the blind be effected by SR" unfortunately that's where it gets exceptionally complicated, because depending on interpretation it could be ruled eithier way, same with hail of stone.


What about Blizzard? There are lots of spells that create snow. If they offered SR, what would it mean if the caster failed to pierce SR? Could you walk through the snow as if it wasn't there? Would you fall through it?

To be honest? This is exactly why I asked GITP, because many of oyu here are far more knowledgeable then I am when it comes to spells, etc. And you're absolutely right in this case. Blizzard for all intents and purposes, effects an area and the area then does damage. Which is a good thing to raise, in this case. You're probably right SR wouldn't matter, nor should it.

I'd imagine that is a case for the DM to actually sit down and look at the spell being cast and make a judgement call, once again, this makes it so Wizards are thinking outside the box.


What about a Wall of Iron? A Wall of Iron can fall on people to deal damage, just like Hail of Stone. It's also a wall of solid iron. Does resisting that mean you can walk through the wall? If not, why is it falling on you any different?
Once again, a creative use of a spell some wouldn't think to use in that way, and once again you're right. SR wouldn't logicially make sense to apply here.
Though the Reflex save might help you, it's doubted if you're in a giant suit of anti-magic armor that's not helping you much, more reasons I asked for help to make this semi-feasible and working.


Once you start allowing SR for things that don't allow SR, the rules get silly. This is because, bizarrely enough, the spells that allow SR are chosen because they happen to be the spells that make sense allowing SR

The problem with this? The rules are already silly, incredibly so when you actually sit down and look at them closely or RAW. Which is why some things are just so very broken. While I agree this doesn't help that point to a large degree, I'm trying to get some of the effects cut down a bit. Obviously this will take alot of effort on the part of a DM to determine which spells, and spell effects actually are effected by SR

Edit:

Ok, see, the problem here is that you're viewing damage as somehow more magical than the other effects of the spell. What makes the acid damage special, as compared to the visual impairment?

Admittedly you're right here, again this is going to be based on interpretation, and a bit of the DM making the choices ahead of time. Or better wording in the new SR's description.

Edit 2: Thinking on this for a few minutes more, maybe SR "should" work that way in alot of areas. Or! SR from armor doesn't stack for non-damaging effects when applying Spell Bulwark, Spell Bulwark does apply for certain things, let's take Acid Fog again, the SR from Aegis and Spell Bulwark applies when effecting the damage dealt (The Wizard would only roll onc eint his case.) However only Spell Bulwark effects the visual or immobilizing effects of the spell, you see through the magical fog, or your body isn't effected by the magic, Aegis can simulate some form of protection, but not raw talent as it were.

[Keneth]

I actually like that way of working things, albeit you'd have to re-write the better part (Or all) of the spell list to take into account for things like this. (You'd also have to re-work alot of magic items I'd imagine, especially if they emulate some form of spell that takes X more rounds to cast now.) Otherwise you'd fall into the UMD trap I think.

We just took it on a spell-by-spell basis, usually no additional ruling was needed, but there are some spells that were exempt from the general rule (such as feather fall which remained an immediate action) and quite a few of the lower level spells (mostly evocations) were buffed to compensate for the changes. Magic items worked in the same manner as spells, i.e. it took 1 round per effective spell level for them to "charge". Problems arose mostly with supernatural abilities and items that produce effects that don't emulate spells. Those were either left as-is and were highly valued (or feared) or, in rarer cases, given a longer activation time. It was fun and without a myriad of spell effects on the battlefield, combat rounds went by faster, so waiting for the spell to finish casting wasn't such a terrible ordeal.

[Urpriest]

Since so many spells apply environmental effects, maybe it would be better for mundane-types to get something to overcome the effects of spells, rather than using Spell Resistance-style mechanics. Perhaps high Spot checks let you see through concealment, while high Balance lets you move at full speed on more difficult terrain or through things like Solid Fog. Perhaps certain weapon materials can let you make an extra attack against a wall while moving, so that you can crash through a wall and still get to the enemy and attack them. This would also help these characters deal with obstacles that you typically need casters to help with.

[navar100]

This was kind of the "hate" that I wanted to avoid. I don't hate magic at all. I dislike the balance in the game currently that weighs it so if you aren't a caster at high levels, you are more or less useless. I enjoy D&D because it has alot of material to work with, it has alot of concepts in it that are interesting, but if you have a wizard in the party that plays well, and knows what they are doing? Right now there's nothing to stop that wizard from running the entire party and show, except another Caster, then your fighters, monks, barbarians etc feel more or less useless.

Of course that's my opinion, please don't assume I hate magic, it's quite the opposite, I just want to see it balanced so it's not broken.

Edit: Sorry for the double-post! ^_^

Multiple opponents, spread out/attacking in different directions. Wizard cannot defeat them all.

Bad guys do make saving throws.

As DM don't metagame. The bad guy attacks the fighter because the fighter is in his face with a pointy stick. Don't think "This PC has no class ability whatsoever to force this bad guy to stay where he is by game mechanics so I'm just going to ignore him."

Have more than two combats a game day. Eventually spellcasters aren't going to run out of spells, a good thing, but they need to learn to conserve. A wizard does not need to cast Knock or use a wand charge. Just let the rogue take care of it and use that spell slot for something else and buy a different more useful wand. It's ok to have a scroll or two as back up in case the rogue isn't with you for whatever reason.

You don't need to change how spellcasting works.

[Urpriest]

Multiple opponents, spread out/attacking in different directions. Wizard cannot defeat them all.

Melee won't help with that either, since melee sucks at multi-target damage.


Bad guys do make saving throws.

They also have AC. Difference is, there are 3 saving throws, and only one AC. You can pick their weak saving throw, Fighters can't pick the weak AC because there's only one.


As DM don't metagame. The bad guy attacks the fighter because the fighter is in his face with a pointy stick. Don't think "This PC has no class ability whatsoever to force this bad guy to stay where he is by game mechanics so I'm just going to ignore him."

Yes, I'm sure the guy waving around a pointy stick is going to be way more threatening than the Large guy also waving a pointy stick and decked out in intimidating symbols and shiny auras (Cleric) or the bear/dinosaur/whatever (Druid) or the Fiendish Tiger/wall of fire (stuff thrown out by the Wizard). Basically, being intimidating and in-your-face is not something that melee is any better at than magic, so melee doesn't get to say "well at least I tank".


Have more than two combats a game day. Eventually spellcasters aren't going to run out of spells, a good thing, but they need to learn to conserve. A wizard does not need to cast Knock or use a wand charge. Just let the rogue take care of it and use that spell slot for something else and buy a different more useful wand. It's ok to have a scroll or two as back up in case the rogue isn't with you for whatever reason.


Knock is for the sort of locks you need a rogue for, times when you need to unlock a door silently and quickly and when doing so won't alert the entire complex anyway due to the ensuing combat. It's actually pretty difficult to come up with times that that's needed any more than once per adventure. Most doors, you just kick them down, something the Cleric is fine at.

[chaos_redefined]

1) If they are that spread out, then spells like Wall of Stone/Force/etc... break the combat into bits. So... problem solved?

2) Yeah. And sometimes they fail them. And some spells don't allow them. What's your point?

3) As of about 5th level, magic is essential to a party. A lot of enemies have spell-like abilities. They aren't ignoring the fighter because "there's no class feature to make me fight him". They are ignoring the fighter because that guy over there is freaking dangerous, and everyone knows it. Furthermore, making them attack the wizard drains the wizard of precious spells/day, because he needs to do things like cast mirror image and displacement.

4) When playing a caster, I regularly go for four combats a day, and still am doing a good job in the majority of them. I don't know where this "Wizards can only go for 2 combats per day" thing comes from, but it is a load of crap.