Help determine spell level for a custom spell

[meto30]

Hello fellow GITP forum-goers, I'd like your help in determining the spell level and other details for the following custom spell.

Tiro, either conjuration or evocation depending on how I eventually decide to fluff it, arcane (sor/wiz) spell, standard action.

Summons (or creates) a number (which depends on caster level) of pre-loaded rifles that disappear after 1min/clvl or right after use, whichever comes first. Rifles are considered magical for overcoming DR, but are otherwise mundane.

The two things I'm trying to decide is the level of the spell, and the equation by which the number of rifles will be given. I want it to scale with clvl, that much is certain, and I'd want to cap the scaling at clvl=10, assuming the spell level is lower than 4.

My initial idea is 1, as basically whoever is casting this spell is either a reload mechanism for a platoon of riflemen, or is wasting a round creating weapons she'd need to use in a seperate turn, which in my reasoning is weak enought that it doesn't warrant a high spell level. I also placed the appropriate number of rifles at 1 rifle at clvl 1 and one additional rifle per every two additional clvls, capping at 5 rifles (clvl 9). What do you think?

EDIT: The rifles I'm refering to are muzzle-loaded rifles that were used in the Napoleonic era.

[Zero grim]

Hello fellow GITP forum-goers, I'd like your help in determining the spell level and other details for the following custom spell.

Tiro, either conjuration or evocation depending on how I eventually decide to fluff it, arcane (sor/wiz) spell, standard action.

Summons (or creates) a number (which depends on caster level) of pre-loaded rifles that disappear after 1min/clvl or right after use, whichever comes first. Rifles are considered magical for overcoming DR, but are otherwise mundane.

The two things I'm trying to decide is the level of the spell, and the equation by which the number of rifles will be given. I want it to scale with clvl, that much is certain, and I'd want to cap the scaling at clvl=10, assuming the spell level is lower than 4.

My initial idea is 1, as basically whoever is casting this spell is either a reload mechanism for a platoon of riflemen, or is wasting a round creating weapons she'd need to use in a seperate turn, which in my reasoning is weak enought that it doesn't warrant a high spell level. I also placed the appropriate number of rifles at 1 rifle at clvl 1 and one additional rifle per every two additional clvls, capping at 5 rifles (clvl 9). What do you think?

EDIT: The rifles I'm refering to are muzzle-loaded rifles that were used in the Napoleonic era.

Well muskets from DMG so a grand D12 of damage with no bonuses, this would be higher then the most damaging first level spell I can think of, so for me this sounds like a second level spell, its got range, it can bypass magical damage reduction and it progresses like magic missile.

If you were using different stat's for the muskets then id think it could go up or down about 1 level.

[Keneth]

It depends entirely on what kind of firearm system you are using. In Pathfinder, a typical rifle is a 1d10, x4 touch weapon which would amount to about 29 points of damage at 5 rifles assuming each one hits and possibly over the course of several rounds. That's roughly comparable to Acid Arrow, so it would be level 2. If you make this evocation [force], and the rifles are just force constructs for 1-5 bullets which fire automatically, it would still put the spell in the level 2 category unless you raise the number of rifles to 1/caster level (max 10) in which case it would probably hit the bottom of level 3 tier.

[Shining Wrath]

This spell does create 5 weapons and 5 people get to aim and fire separately. E.G., three rounds drop the enemy mage, then the other two go into the enemy archer.

I think 3.

[Gazzien]

Considering that it doesn't make you automatically proficient with the rifles (unless I failed reading comprehension), I say level 2.

[meto30]

The system's 3.5, with quite a list of homebrew rules to be frank but there's only one rule which we need to be aware of and that's that in our campaign, firearms resolve against touch AC while in the first range increment, as in PF.

I'm using the DMG version for dmg, d12 x3.

The spell does not make the caster proficient with rifles at all. Firearms are considered exotic weapons in our campaign and thus you must burn a feat to use it proficiently.

Other than the fact that they're magically created, the rifles are completely mundane, that is, they have to be aimed and fired by someone, they have misfire chance (this was also imported from PF), gunpowder is prone to water, any effect that protects against normal missiles protect against the bullets, etc. Also, the spell merely creates the rifles, and confers on the caster no special ability to retain or manipulate them - normally, the rifles would just fall on the ground after being summoned/created.

This spell is more or less an attempt at recreating the signature rifle moves of Mami Tomoe from the Puella Magi Madoka Magica anime, by the way, if you get the reference.

[Keneth]

Yeah, that way it's pretty much a 2nd level spell of the same caliber as Acid Arrow, as I mentioned earlier.

[kabreras]

Really for me its level 1 max...

Riffles dont float or anything, it produce them and they fall on the ground so you have to burn actions to pick them, to fire them and you are not even proficient with them... huge drawback to me even with the D10 damages

Look like a level 1 spell that i would never take to me

[ArcturusV]

I'd call it level 1. Mechanically it's very similar in what it'd do to a spell from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Lantern Eyes or something? I can't recall the name. I do remember the spell effectively gave you Laser Eyes. Which you could fire multiple times based on Caster Level (But never more than once per round).

Which is effectively what this would do. It's SLIGHTLY better in that if you had a bunch of people without weapons ready, at higher levels it could arm a peasant rabble mob to all fire at once. But considering real "At the Table" application this is basically going to be the wizard having a bunch of Rifles at his feet which he can pick up and fire, one per round. Which is exactly what said Lantern Eyes/Light or whatever its name was, actually does.

It would therefore probably become a level 1 spell who's greatest use is, like Magic Missile, to higher level casters who can Metamagic it up a lot. But still isn't the most effective option.

[Keneth]

Lantern Light deals 1d6 points per ray as a ranged touch attack with short range and includes an abstinence component. That averages at about 35 damage over the course of 10 rounds at level 20. The proposed spell deals 1d12 points of damage as a ranged touch attack with a x3 critical and to a maximum of 5 rifles. That averages to about 33 damage over the course of 5 rounds at level 9 with the potential to arm 5 individuals. It also makes use of all feats (if any) tied to firearms, albeit potentially incurring a -4 non-proficiency penalty (which on a touch attack isn't saying much). Its field use is indeed equivalent to, if not worse than, a 1st level spell and would be better served as self-firing musket, but spells, like most things in D&D, are sorted based on their relative power and potential. If you're going to make it a 2nd level spell though, having the guns float in front of you so that you can grab them as a free action (rather than picking them up as a move action), is well within the limits of a 2nd level spell can achieve.

I would only consider it a 1st level spell for a class like the Pathfinder Spellslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/spellslinger) or any other gun-toting spellcaster.

[meto30]

As a side information, this link (http://cfile8.uf.tistory.com/media/153410484D39797034BA2F) shows the spell's intended use in combat; the part where the blonde character summons/creates rifles. The part where she uses them (gun-kata style) is where her feats and her class abilities come in.

The fact that any effect that prohibits use of ranged weapons (such as the protection against arrows spell) also affects the summoned rifles was the primary reason I initially thought of Tiro as a first level spell.

Summing up your insightful guidance on the matter, it seems Tiro becomes second level when we focus on the potential damage output and becomes first level when we focus on the utility and applicability of the rifles. The second-level spell I'm using as reference however, the scorching ray, seems vastly superior to Tiro in both sheer damage output and ease of use at the field; if I'm to upgrade Tiro to 2nd lvl (or create a seperate spell, perhaps 'Tiro II'), what would make the spell on par with other spells in the level?

There is indeed an additional spell I have designed where the rifles don't fall to the ground but rather float in the air and fire en masse by themselves (Pallatola Tempesta), and I'm thinking of placing that as a third level spell, using volley rules from HoB.

[kabreras]

So definitly level 1.

Burns a lot of actions after the summon and you cant even fire one the round you cast the spell or cast a spell a round you fire one of the rifles.

Level 3 for the volley is nice

[Keneth]

The second-level spell I'm using as reference however, the scorching ray, seems vastly superior to Tiro in both sheer damage output and ease of use at the field; if I'm to upgrade Tiro to 2nd lvl (or create a seperate spell, perhaps 'Tiro II'), what would make the spell on par with other spells in the level?

Alright, let's compare scorching ray with your spell. At 11th level, scorching ray fires 3 rays for an average of 14*3 = 42 points of fire damage, accounting for critical hits, assuming you always confirm, adds up roughly 15%*14 = 2 points of damage for a total of 44 points in a single round.

At 9th level your spell creates 5 rifles, dealing an average of 6.5*5 = 32.5 damage. The critical hits (again assuming all are confirmed) add up about 23%*13 = 3 points of damage to a total of about 36 points over the course of a maximum of 6 rounds.

Clearly a worse spell than scorching ray but that's the high end of 2nd level evocations. Lesser orb of X spells (standard 1st level conjuration spells) deal 5d8 points of energy damage on a single attack at 9th level, averaging at 23 points of damage, slightly more than magic missile but require a ranged touch attack.

We've already done the comparison with the lower end of 2nd level conjuration spells (acid arrow), so let's skip that. Judging from the video clip you posted, the rifles are perfectly positioned and Tomoe has no trouble dual-wielding them. She also draws the first rifle straight into her hand. So let's apply this to the spell: The conjured rifles should be at hand's reach, possibly circling around the caster which would allow you to move on subsequent rounds, as well as allowing you to draw one (or more) as a free action if the caster has Quick Draw. In addition, the rifles are made from super light materials, and can be treated as pistols for the purposes of handedness and the use of two-weapon fighting. Finally, in addition to the 5 rifles, next to you, one also appears in your hand and can be fired immediately at the completion of the spell. That's about a much fiat as you can get away with for a 2nd level conjuration spell, I think.

Let's see what that did for the spell. The potential damage increases by about 7 points and (with the right feats) you can reduce the time required to fire them on your own by 2 rounds. Still worse than scorching ray, but trying to outshine evocations with conjurations is what leads to broken crap like the orb spells, so that's about as much as I would allow if I were the DM.

If you wanna push it squarely into 1st level spells on the other hand, simply dropping the maximum number of rifles from 5 to 4 or 3 should do without any further fiddling.

[Gildedragon]

Level 2

There is an already existing weapon summoning spell: Summon Weapon.
It is bard/assassin 2
any light weapon and at hand

so this one has the benefit of summoning a specific (but strong) weapon and many of them. however, it doesn't put them to hand, doesn't grant proficiency, and it is a full caster's spell.

these things seem to balance out somewhat.

[Hunter Noventa]

So definitly level 1.

Burns a lot of actions after the summon and you cant even fire one the round you cast the spell or cast a spell a round you fire one of the rifles.

Level 3 for the volley is nice

Not level 1, at least level 2. PF has the spell Snapdragon Fireworks, deal 1d4 damage and dazzle with a reflex save for clvl rounds. Fun little spell, not super effective. This is a bit more powerful because of the higher damage.

[ericgrau]

That spell doesn't eat your standard every round though. That's like using a quickened or swift 1st level spell to decide the damage on a 5th level spell. It isn't even close.

Usually you'd be much much better off casting a 1st level spell 2-3 times, and usually by the 3rd spell the fight is already decided. The conservation of a spell slot or two isn't worth the reduction in damage compared to a 1st level spell. Put a feat on top of that, and this is borderline cantrip territory.

If you allow rapid fire for more than 1d12 per round, perhaps for free or via feats, then it could be bumped up slightly to match. But even then I'd consider taking other 1st level spells instead. The 1 round delay is way too much.

Perhaps if the spell were a swift action, then it could work. You get quick draw and rapid shot and get 2-3 shots per round. It's a little high for a 1st level spell but you put 4 friggin' feats into it so I'd leave it at level 1. Especially if they aren't touch attacks. Without those feats the swift version gives 1d12 per round starting right away, again paying an action each time, which is still pretty weak compared to blowing a couple magic missiles and being down 1 more spell slot. And you still need exotic weapon proficiency to do it.

[Keneth]

I understand that action economy = god, but saying a higher level spell has no business being a higher level spell just because casting several lower level spells is more effective in a generic situation, is frankly stupid (no offense meant). The spell has a job to do—it summons rifles—the damage of which is comparable to a 2nd level spell, and that's what it does. Whether you plan on using the rifles yourself and waste several rounds to produce the effect has absolutely nothing to do with the spell itself, its power is measured on its potential, not your ability to make use of it. It's like saying scrying has no business being a 4th level spell because it may or may not produce any valid results and you can clean up the whole dungeon with your 1st-3rd level spells in the hour it takes to cast it. :smallconfused:

[meto30]

Normally throughout the anime, Tomoe Mami has to wield her summoned rifles with both hands, and they are consistently shown being used as heavy clubs as well as ranged weapons (as normal for period rifles sans bayonet), so that would exclude their being lightweight. She wields her muskets with one hand in two cases (one of which is in the link I've provided above), and my guess is that she is doing so through magic. Granted, PMMM magic works very differently from D&D's as to be expected for an anime, but still that means our gun-toting mage will have to use a spell or some feat to do that as well, at least that's how I'm seeing it.

Hm, some of the spells you have given me are those I've not considered before, and yes, it does seem they seem to be on par with (or worse than!) our Tiro. Summoning less than three rifles would disallow our gun-toter to full-attack using all her bab pool + rapid shot, so perhaps dividing the spell into two (1st level, summons a single rifle straight to her hand which she fires as part of the standard action casting motion; 2nd level, summons a number of rifles which she fires in subsequent rounds) would work? Our gun-toting mage is a sorcereress, and I'd want at least one thematically appropriate spell per spell level on her spell list.

[Keneth]

Well they don't have to be very light in a literal sense. I've already suggested that they be floating around you, rather than dropping on the ground, so whatever magic is holding them up, can also negate the need to use two hands. Still, it might be somewhat beyond the scope of a conjuration spell. Then again, it's magic.

Summoning a maximum of 3 rifles would already make it a 1st level spell, but if you're gonna make a separate 1st level spell, it should be a swift action to cast, as eric suggested, and even then it falls on the lower end of 1st level spells. If it didn't do 1d12 damage, it'd be a cool candidate for a cantrip. In fact, I might steal that idea and change it so that it summons a coat pistol. :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

It does less damage than 1st level spells, much less. Otherwise you might as well say that call lightning does 50d6 damage and is way overpowered for a 3rd level spell when meteor swarm does 32d6.

Most fights are over in 5 rounds and determined in 3. If you spend 3 standard actions to do a total of 2d12 before it's only cleanup anyway then that's far far worse than any 1st level spell. Most could do more damage in 1 round, let alone worrying whether or not to blow 2-3 spells for more damage. I'd rather spend my feat to get a 1d10 repeating crossbow that's limitless and doesn't waste combat time to set up. That's why I say with a feat required it's almost cantrip territory; you're usually better off not casting anything at all. With a feat it needs to do better than a delayed 1d12 per round to even reach 1st level, or you really are better off with a crossbow.

Here's a possible spell description:

Summon Rifles
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: One summoned loaded rifle per level
Duration: 1 round / level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: None

The spell summons one loaded muzzle-loaded rifle per caster level. The rifles arrive in a circle pointed down and planted in the ground around you in your square. If the ground is hard such as stone, the rifles instead fall flat. Assuming they are planted, they may be drawn by you or anyone in an adjacent square like a sheathed weapon, for example using the quickdraw feat, as part of a move action or two at once with the two weapon fighting feat. The rifles each contain a single shot which deals 1d12 damage with a x3 crit multiplier. They are exotic weapons.

At your option up to two of the rifles may instead appear in your hands, provided that they are not carrying something else.

The spell is typically used by fighter/wizards, or to resupply a small platoon who already expended their first shot.

[ArcturusV]

You know, reading that... I realize that at level 1, it would do absolutely nothing. Meaning that it's power level isn't exactly all that high compared to level ones anyway. You'd cast the spell. It has a 1 round duration. Before you can act again they'd disappear. It's only useful if you're arming some adjacent ally who can pick it up and fire it. Which is a very narrow use. And likely anyone who would want a single shot rifle who is adjacent to you has a better option in hand for them.

Now at higher level, sure, it gets better. But like Lantern Light it's a spell I don't expect would see common use. Though it might get used for Metamagic Stacking.

[ericgrau]

Actually because of the long casting time you get 1 round of use at level 1 because the spell doesn't begin until your next turn. If the casting time were reduced then an extra round of duration would be nice.

[Hyde]

I figured this was a madoka question, though I wouldn't describe anything Tomoe Mami does in PMMM as "throughout" :smallwink:.

Personally, she uses her rifles pretty frequently with one hand that a 2-handed wielding seems more likely the result of careful aiming. She's shown to be pretty accurate and precise even 1-handing the things, though.

I'd say it summons 3 rifles +1 per three caster levels. They can be used one-handed, and are in a position prepped for use, so that a character with quick draw could use them in a full round attack with no problems. I like it as a second level spell, since it's more or less entirely utility, and gives a character pseudo-haste (i.e. your extra action from haste every round can only be used for reloading your gun).


Frankly, the whole concept works better as a class feature, where you can start adding things like +1 bonuses and special features to the rifles you summon, a la like five class features in Pathfinder, most notably the paladin.

...I'm gonna go ahead and turn this into a class now, if no one else had done it yet.

[meto30]

Well, I did make her waste a standard action summoning rifles she'd need to use in a different turn precisely to recreate Mami's bane in PMMM; she is capable when she is prepared against what she's facing, but if anything happens abruptly and she doesn't have a contingency against it, well, episode 3 happens. The very fact that she needs to spend at least 2 rnds to do any damage is central to her weakness, in my vision of her.

I did make her a sorceress instead of a seperate class on her own because I wanted my players to be able to train her into a more capable all-round caster; yes, my campaign's Mami is an NPC. Causing all sorts of headaches for the players in the party because all of them like Mami as a character
and they all know how episode 3 ended. My take on Tomoe's uncanny accuracy with the rifles was "magic", though, not inherent skill or attribute. Besides, if Homura improved her attirbutes overall with magic, why not Mami?