Bluffing, feinting and being fabulous

[Azif13]

First of all, hi to all. I'm a huge fan of the order of the stick and I've been playing role games for a long time now, but never registered in the forums. All that cahnged today, while I was googling for ideas for my new character and found a thread here about the Improved Feint feat being s**t and stuff like that. Just happens I thought Improved Feint would be great for my character!

I will explain. Some friends an I decided to start a Pathfinder campaign (as I didn't find a subforum for Pathfinder I'm putting this thread in general discussion of RPG). The game is settled in a large city where the PC's are part of the city's elite guard. The city is ruled by the Circle of Wise Men, who rule the university and the Chancellor who is the head of the army (and my ultraboss for a matter of fact). My PC in particular is also a professor at the university, so the Wise Men are also my bosses. Another player and I came to the idea of getting Lawful Evil characters and do a little politics so we can achive the higher states of the city and rule and all that.

Therefore I wanted a PC with high Charisma, so I started with the idea of playing a Cleric, then Sorcerer, but finally I decided to be a Rogue of the charlatan archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/charlatan), maximizing bluff, diplomacy, intimidate and the likes. I enjoy really much the idea but I'm trying to decide how can I contribute to combat. I've been thinking of multiclassing to Shadowdancer or Assassin, but the idea I've liked the most is to be only rogue and be specialized in feint combat or something like that. We start at level 5 and the other characters are a human gunslinger, a human flow monk (specialized in tripping), a cooker dwarf (a class invented by our GM) and a cleric/wizard (which is my conspirator collegue). More or less this is what i have:

Half-Orc Rogue Charlatan 5

Str 12
Dex 16 (15+1 level 4 characteristic upgrade)
Con 12
Int 13 (I put the 13 in Int in order to get combat expertise)
Wis 12
Cha 18 (16+2 for being half-orc)

Sneak Attack +3d6
Natural born liar (form the charlatan archetype)
Evasion
Uncanny Dodge
Grand Hoax (I get Rumormonger at level 3 for being a charlatan)
Rogue Talents: Finesse Rogue, Underhanded

Feats: Combat expertise, improved feint, skill focus: Bluff

Skills:
Acrobatics 5 (+11)
Bluff 5 (+15)
Climb 1 (+5)
Diplomacy 5 (+12)
Disable Device 1 (+7)
Disguise 2 (+9) (in case I want to become an assassin)
Escape artist 1 (+7)
Intimidate 5 (+14) (I get a +2 for being half-orc, which is cool)
Knowledge (local) 5 (+11) (I get (I get a +2 'cause I got City-raised as an alternate racial rule)
Perception 5 (+11) (I get a +2 'cause I got Bestial as an alternate racial rule)
Sense Motive 5 (+9)
Sleight of hand 5 (+11)
Stealth 5 (+11)

The idea in combat is feinting and then sneak attack (as you may suppose) and out of it being deceitful in general and killing thanks to underhanded.

I'd like to know what do you think or if you come up with another idea regarding being fabulous (this is having high charisma). Thanks beforehand.

PD: I hope I've expressed myself well enough, It's been lots of years of learning english but it's still not my mother tongue (mother tonge? you say it that way? the translation to spanish is like that at least XD).

[ArcturusV]

Well, I haven't mucked around with PF much. In 3.5 terms, which I hear PF is based upon after all... :smallbiggrin: I wouldn't be looking towards the Assassin as something you want to be. Disguise is good to have regardless. Even if PF doesn't use Skill Synergies, the skills still are related. A bluff can make a good disguise better. A good disguise can make a good bluff better.

Just remember to fast talk a lot. Don't give NPCs a chance to back talk you. Don't take interruptions. Act like someone who's in a hurry, or is more important than who you are in fact talking to. Or someone who isn't worth talking to if you want to avoid notice, and if they try to talk to you just bow and scrape and such away from them.

As for mechanical stuff? Just wouldn't suggest the Assassin class. There's not a lot of good classes for that sort of thing. I kind of like the Ninja Spy due to Thousand Faces (Alter Self at will), still progressing sneak attack, and some useful extra abilities. Though most of it's "extra abilities" are also more about being a different type of rogue than you are. Things like being able to always take 10 on any Acrobatics and (In PF probably Athletics?) roll. Or being able to jump up to your check result distance even if normally you wouldn't be able to move that far.

I actually have done Ninja Spy into Shapechanger PrC before. It's kinda fun. Though not optimal obviously. But a one level dip into Shapechanger (need a way to change your shape, thus the Ninja Spy's Thousand Faces, a Polymorph spell you can cast, whatever), gives you a 3/day Wildshape into Small or Medium animals. Which has proven very useful to me. Not for combat purposes for but scouting purposes. Turn into a dog, lurk in an alleyway, listen to your marks without them even knowing it. You pick up some clue that you can then use to bluff them more effectively... things like that.

[Azif13]

Thanks for the roleplaying tips, it gives me something to think about...:smallbiggrin:

Now you say all about disguise and the ninja spy I remeber another PrC:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/master-spy

Which is quite cool too.

The matter is still what's the best way for this character to act in combat. The improved feint feat could be a good idea and only requires 2 feats, I wont like to be useless in combat, I've had other characters like that and becomes boring with time.

[ArcturusV]

It all depends. I mean Improved Feint is good, if you can arrange the one on one. If you cannot arrange the one on one, you typically don't need it because it's pretty easy to set up Flanks. And flanking an enemy gives you the Sneak Attack, which is what you are looking for primarily.

Now, since you DO have intimidation, you should be able to game it out with your DM to arrange your "duels". Or with bluff. This isn't strictly a rules as written sort of thing. It's a "Player is doing something logical" sort of thing.

Like imagine your character. You got your blade out, you're looking across the battlefield at the enemy group you happened upon. You pick out your "mark". Then you decide you're going to one on one him. You throw out an intimidate check to ensure this is what happens.

You know, something of a threat like, "I want to spill your guts all over the pavement. It will give me... joy. And I like my jollies. I really do. It's not a smart man who gets between me and my joy. Then I'm forced to find out, better sources of Joy from the person who robbed me... uglier, slower, more painful sources. So you can feel free to help out your little friend here... but is it worth it? Do you want to remain in agony for days while I extract every last ounce of sweet agony out of you, to the point where you cannot remember what a lack of pain is? If so... step up. I got enough for both of you."

Just doing something simple like that. A) DMs love it when you actually do something like that instead of say "I roll intimidate so no one else except my target wants to fight me". B) It gets you the one on one fight, where Improved Feint is useful. C) If you do well on the Intimidate it might even make the other enemies Shaken, which your team will appreciate.

[Etrivar]

Well, If you're looking to specialize in feint, no-one does that better than the Invisible Blade, out of Complete Warrior. Gives you sneak attack, lets you bleed opponents, lets you take ten on feints, and eventually lowers feinting to a free-action.

If you do want to go that route, do be sure to talk to your DM about getting those utterly ridiculous prerequisite feats waived or replaced though.

[Azif13]

You know, something of a threat like, "I want to spill your guts all over the pavement. It will give me... joy. And I like my jollies. I really do. It's not a smart man who gets between me and my joy. Then I'm forced to find out, better sources of Joy from the person who robbed me... uglier, slower, more painful sources. So you can feel free to help out your little friend here... but is it worth it? Do you want to remain in agony for days while I extract every last ounce of sweet agony out of you, to the point where you cannot remember what a lack of pain is? If so... step up. I got enough for both of you."

Simply love it. Thanks for all the roleplaying hints, it will be of good use. I think I will go with more or less what I have, I think I will enjoy very much this character :smallbiggrin:

Regarding the invisible blade, It does not appear in the PF SRD and our DM only allows us to use whatever appears there, which is a shame 'cause I do like that class :smallfrown:

[Flickerdart]

Really? You think that spending two of your three feats on feinting is "great"? You sacrifice your move action for the round in order to have a chance of having your next attack be a sneak attack. It is well known that rogues are most effective when they have many attacks, and you're throwing all of that away to use Improved Feint instead of making a full attack.

Feinting in combat might be a cool concept, but its mechanical implementation is so dodgy that against enemies that could be described with a straight face as competent, it's useless.

[Azif13]

This is precisely why I am asking for other options. Also, I don't think my PC will be fighting a lot and I will fight alone most of the time due to the kind of campaign, what's more I won't be doing 2 attacks until level 8. Nevertheless I keep asking for other options in case they're better, I just can't think of another, I don't really want to expend lots of feats in combat, that's why just 2 seem good to me.

[ArcturusV]

Well, usually in 3.5 (Not sure about Pathfinder), the thing for most rogues to go is causing the Flatfooted status to enable Sneak Attacks. This can be done a few ways as I recall. Harder to pull off ones being things like Invisibility. However the "go to" for guaranteeing Sneak Attack is usually using Marbles (Arms and Equipment Guide) as you can spread them around cheaply and any enemy inside a square with marbles is considered flat footed. Honestly it's a little comical. But that's probably the Ideal Way. If you're alone and can't count on someone setting up a flank, obviously.

The other is the Shoot and Scoot, where you use cover and concealment, stealth skills, and ranged attacks hopefully within 30' to set up Flatfooted status because they don't know you're there.

I presumed the feinting thing was a matter of choice on your part. That you wanted to go with some Rakish character, Errol Flynn stuff, etc.

But ranged and "Shoot and Scoot" tends to be the most reliable way for a solo artist to do it, that isn't going to get a DM to facepalm as you count on cartoon physics from Marbles or the like to do it for you. Frankly I find it... almost strange, that the weapon of choice for most Rogues is a Short Bow (For Shoot and Scoot) myself. But that's because instead of thinking "Sneak Attack" I tend to think of the ability by it's old name "Backstab".

Yes, Flicker has a point in that feinting is less ideal. But it's also not dependent on Gear. And yes, it does prevent a Full Attack. But you think, hey, level 20 Rogue (To use the most extreme example), you probably would get what from a Full Attack?

1d6+5 Magic Item x 3 (For Archery), or 1d6+3ish for Str, +5 for Magic Weapon, +5 for Power Attack (As you're not proficient with two handers you wouldn't get the more favorable style) x3 attacks.

So roughly you're talking 25.5 for Archery, and 49.5.

Or Feint to set up a Sneak Attack in melee, got 1d6+10d6 Sneak Attack +3 str, +5 Magic Weapon, +5 Power Attack, x1.

For roughly 51.5.

Of course the math might get off with non-standard stuff, particular weapon enchantments. Two Weapon Fighting if you sucked up the feats for it, would better impact the Feint than the Full Attack.

Of course the full attack WITH Sneak Attack is the best, obviously. For a rough average of +105 damage. But it's harder to set up a full round sneak attack as a solo artist short of the Shoot and Scoot method.

Then again, if PF doesn't allow Ranged Sneak Attacks, that isn't viable at all.

[Azif13]

In fact, it does allow ranged sneak attack, but I think the shoot and scoot thing does not fit very well with the setting and my PC, I don't know, just don't feel it. I like the marbles thing, it could be something to help, as a second option or something like that. Talking about two-weapon fighting, I could take Greater Feint, which causes the target of a faint to be flat-footed for a whole round and Two-Weapon Feint to use the first (with the greatest attack modifier) of my full round attacks to feint, then I will have the rest of the attacks to hit with sneak attacks. In total it will be 4 feats and I'll just forego one of my attacks. Does not convince me but It could be an option.

EDIT: the bad thing about this method is that I won't have greater feint 'till level 9

[Flickerdart]

If a level 20 rogue can't guarantee himself sneak attacks, he should maybe have been playing a different class.

[Azif13]

Flickerdart, what options do you suggest?

[Abemad]

You could take quickdraw, along with some of the skill tricks in complete scoundrel that renders an opponent flat-footed, also rather sub-optimal, but the style fits, and it is better than improved feint...
You should consider combat panache from players handbook II, its a combat style feat that requires ranks in perform, bluff and intimidate - perfect fit ;)

[Azif13]

Combat panache sounds very interesting, but I'm not able to find it, could you explain it to me? Thanks :smallredface:

[ArcturusV]

Well, it's a Tactical Feat, not a Combat Style feat. But I don't care for it much myself. A lot of the weaknesses of the Feint, it takes up move actions, with even more stringent requirements.

Basically it gives you three combat maneuvers.

One is, if an enemy hits you, you can then next time your turn comes up use a Bluff vs Sense Motive check as a move action. If you succeed you can spend a swift action at the start of that enemy's next turn, forcing them to make a melee attack against another target in a square they currently threaten.

Which is neat, and probably the best use of it. Conditionally. You'd think. But realistically the only time you could use that ability is when the enemy is formation fighting (Something I rarely see DMs use), or if you are surrounded, in which case you're dead meat anyway.

The second ability is... even less useful. It allows you to, if you get hit for 10 or more damage by an attack, try to play dead. You drop prone, then make a Bluff Check vs Sense Motive. If successful, you can, later in the same round, you can pop up from prone with no AoO, and stab him with him being Flat Footed, you can only do this once per encounter.

Problems with this? A, regardless of success or failure you're prone. If you fail that means you got in a bad position. B, you can only do this once per encounter, which is less than optimal. C, you have to hope your target is still in melee range when your character's turn comes up which may not be the case since they think you're dead (And thus if they had a move action, probably moved away). And D, it only works if your initiative is lower than your enemy's. It only works during the same round. If you went first, you can't use it.

The third is a glower. If you hit someone for at least one damage, you can then make a move action against them to make an Intimidate Check, if successful, your enemy you hit gets a penalty to attack rolls against you equal to your Charisma modifier. You can only effect one enemy at a time with this, but you can change targets by doing the process on someone else.

Now the downside with this? Well, because you need to hit someone, and in the same round, use a Move Action to glower, this means that you must be within at least 5' of melee range against your enemy to use it. And it takes up your entire turn to do this. And it's dubious just how good the miss chance would be for you. Sure if you got 18 Cha, it's a -4 to Attack you. But that's not exactly the same as "20% less chance to hit you" necessarily.

Basically, it's some kinda.. eh... stuff. I wouldn't recommend it. Considering you're going for sneak attacks nothing in that Tactical Feat really helps you out too much. The most useful one is one that's also limited to your opponents being able to hand you the conditions for it. That and it still needs you to get hit, which as a Rogue is generally something to avoid.

[Azif13]

I understand. Then, as I see it, I have three options: 1) Beg to Asmodeus for having always a mate in order to gain flanking (which is slightly difficult considerating that my principal ally is a spellcaster and that I care much abotu being alone and attacked). 2) Geting the improved feint feat, but it turns out it's a s**t 'cause I spend a move action and I also lose my full attack action so I do less damage (considering that I won't get 2 attacks/round 'till level 8 that's 3 levels of no advantage). 3) Getting de two-weapon feint feat so I can waste my first attack on the round in feinting and still have the other attacks (the number of attacks will be the same as I have one extra attack for fighting with 2 weapons, but I'll lose my higher modifier to attack which is lame). The downside of this is that I won't be able to do ir 'till level 9 and I will waste 4 feats on it.

In conclusion it seems that I am a little bit ****ed up.

[Azif13]

BTW thank you very much ArcturusV, you're helping me a lot.

[ArcturusV]

Well if you can get your DM to allow you to convert some PrCs from 3.5 to Pathfinder, there are some classes that reduce Feints to Free Actions (And generally require Improved Feint to take), which makes it more worth it. I know Invisible Blade was mentioned. I believe there were two in Stormwrack which did it as well. Probably a lot more that I can't necessarily think of at the moment.

[Unusual Muse]

I worked up a Feint-based sneak attack build not too long ago. I was really excited about it until I actually got it into play, and it turned out to not be much fun at all, because of the whole action economy problem with feinting. As others have stated, feinting is cool in theory and crappy in practice.

Sneak Attack is better optimized through flanking, using feats such as Vexing Flanker, Backstab, Deft Opportunist, Adaptable Flanker, Sneak Attack of Opportunity, Stand Still, etc.

[Azif13]

I'll ask my gm. In which manual can I find the classes you're mentioning?

Unusual Muse, I see the same problem as you do, but watching my team mates I can see tat I won't get flanking very often :smallfrown:

[ArcturusV]

Scarlet Corsair from Stormwrack: Mastering Perils of Wind and Wave. Starts on page 65.

Least ideal wise, Scarlet Corsair is fairly close to your original idea. You get Improved Feint for free when you take level 1 in it, so you don't have to burn a feat on it. At level 3 of Scarlet Corsair you get Feint as a free action every 2d4 rounds. At level 7 of Scarlet Corsair you get it as a free action every 1d4 rounds. You get a free dodge action if you're on board a ship, which may or may not matter. At level 5 you can make an intimidate check to make everyone Shaken within 30 feet of you for Charisma Bonus rounds. And at level 9 of it you can sacrifice 2 sneak attack dice to inflict Shaken on an enemy with no max duration.

... so they are constantly terrified until you kill them. I find it funny that it would allow me to spare an enemy and thus leave them shaken until the day they die.

That was the one I was thinking of. I was for some reason thinking Legendary Captain got some bluff related stuff going on as well but it doesn't. I don't know WHY I thought that either. Maybe I was thinking of the PD Legendary Captain who gets a bluff related ability.

[Azif13]

I like that idea a lot, I'll try to convince my GM to adaptate the class to PF and doing it less... pirate :smallbiggrin: I think it might be the best for the kind of character I was thinking of.

[Psyren]

Flickerdart, what options do you suggest?

There aren't many (or perhaps any) in Pathfinder-only. (Incidentally, I find "Pathfinder-only" to be pretty silly. The system was designed for you to use 3.5 material, reflexively banning all of it is just hamstringing yourselves for no good reason.)

3.5 has tricks to make feinting worthwhile - such as Invisible Blade as was suggested (provided you ignore the errata - it changes feinting from a free action to a swift, preventing multiple feints per round), or a Ring of Blinking + Seeking arrows. My personal favorite is to use the Surprising Riposte feat (DotU), which renders a feinted enemy flat-footed for a whole round rather than your next attack, With this, you can use even an errataed Inivisible Blade again, as your swift-action feint will still enable a whole round's worth of sneak attack. Or better yet, be a Psychic Rogue - now you can feint as a move action, except by converting your swift to a move using the Hustle power - which again frees you up to full-sneak-attack.

The problem is that NONE of the above tactics are available in PF-only. PF assumes that rogues spend most combats flanking; if you want to maximize your sneak attack any other way, you'll need 3.5 material.

[Azif13]

The PF feat Greater improved feint does the same as the feat you're mentioning. I see 2 problems with the invisible blade:

1) the feat requirements are, for what I want, quite excessive, i don't really think I'll need the point blank shot and the far shot with the concept of my PC.

2) I won't benefit from a free action feint till level 5 invisible blade, which is more or less character level 11, moreover, the ability I get at level 3 that allows me to feint as a move action will be useless, as I would have alredy acquire the improved feint feat.

I mentioned above that one way to ensure me a full complet round of sneak attack was getting combat expertise, improved feint, greater improved feint, two-weapon fighting and two weapon feint. But still, these are too many feats to spend in one single combat maneuver, and I don't really want to have that many combat feats, as I'm not combat oriented. Maybe improved feint is underrated, but all the problems we're mentioning with it won't come to game until I'm level 8 or 9 (it depends on getting the master spy PrC or not: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/master-spy). I don't think we will get past level 10 or 12 and I just want to ensure that I'm not useless in one-to-one combat, so I think my only option is the improved feint (of course I'm open to suggestions, that is why I'm asking).

Anyway, thank you all for your help ^^

PD: I'm getting the invisible blade inormation from here:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Invisible_Blade_%283.5e_Prestige_Class%29

[Azif13]

I don't think this class gets very well with my character concept, it is quite funny, though: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/red-mantis-assassin