Another reason for Elan to go into Cleric.

[ReaderAt2046]

So a lot of people have been suspecting that Elan will finally start taking Cleric of Banjo levels now that Durkon is gone. Other people have wisely pointed out that given how many Bard levels he has, he'd actually get better healing by continuing to take Bard. However, there's something Clerics get that Bards don't, which could be very powerful in this situation: Turn Undead. The party don't currently have any turners, and they're going up against an enemy who uses a lot of zombies as mooks. Furthermore, Turn Undead is based on Charisma, which Elan has plenty of. With just a single level of Cleric, Elan can pretty reliably zap a dozen-plus zombies per turn, and he'd get seven or eight tries a day. Very worth a Cleric splash.

[SaintRidley]

You don't know much about the mechanics of Turn Undead, do you? Turn Undead as a first level cleric would be utterly useless at Elan's level. He could zap up to 5 HD in one go, on average running around 2-3 HD in zapped undead. In essence, dipping cleric for Turn Undead would make him contribute less to the party in all capacities.

[ReaderAt2046]

No, I just looked up the rules. First he has to roll a turning check. This is 1d20+Cha, and he has at least +4 natural Cha, so that's an average of 13-14, enough to let him turn 2-HD undead at first level (which would include zombies and skeletons). Then he rolls for turning damage, which works out to 2d6+5, which is a minimum of 7 and an average of 12 HD turned per action. Again, first level.

[suszterpatt]

No, I just looked up the rules. First he has to roll a turning check. This is 1d20+Cha, and he has at least +4 natural Cha, so that's an average of 13-14, enough to let him turn 2-HD undead at first level (which would include zombies and skeletons). Then he rolls for turning damage, which works out to 2d6+5, which is a minimum of 7 and an average of 12 HD turned per action. Again, first level.
In other words, he'd fail his turning check about 1 out of 3 times (rolling 9 or below), wasting his standard action for the round. Even assuming a very generous 9 turns per day, that's maybe 36 HD of undead per day. Roy and Belkar can do that much damage in 3 turns, tops.

[SaintRidley]

Sorry, missed an article there. A 5 HD undead as his biggest hit. Of course, Elan would only have one cleric level, so all zapping an undead creature would do would be to make it run away for a minute. He'd need twice as many cleric levels as the undead has HD to actually destroy them. Meaning he'd need 4 levels in cleric before he could destroy a single zombie commoner.

[theNater]

No, I just looked up the rules. First he has to roll a turning check. This is 1d20+Cha, and he has at least +4 natural Cha, so that's an average of 13-14, enough to let him turn 2-HD undead at first level (which would include zombies and skeletons). Then he rolls for turning damage, which works out to 2d6+5, which is a minimum of 7 and an average of 12 HD turned per action. Again, first level.
Given that Roy can defeat 25 HD worth of mummies with a single attack, I don't find this particularly impressive. However, with Elan's family, he'd probably be happier working his way up to Project Image so he can hang out with a twin who isn't evil.

[Dr.Epic]

So a lot of people have been suspecting that Elan will finally start taking Cleric of Banjo levels now that Durkon is gone. Other people have wisely pointed out that given how many Bard levels he has, he'd actually get better healing by continuing to take Bard. However, there's something Clerics get that Bards don't, which could be very powerful in this situation: Turn Undead. The party don't currently have any turners, and they're going up against an enemy who uses a lot of zombies as mooks. Furthermore, Turn Undead is based on Charisma, which Elan has plenty of. With just a single level of Cleric, Elan can pretty reliably zap a dozen-plus zombies per turn, and he'd get seven or eight tries a day. Very worth a Cleric splash.

I think the meatsheild with the +5 undead-harming sword is going to be far more effective than someone with one level of cleric and a penalty to wisdom.

[Clericzilla]

snarky comment

You know what, no I better not.

Elan as a cleric? No just no...

[FlawedParadigm]

Okay, looking over the class and level geekery thread, I'm pretty much convinced that aside from Vaarsuvius multi-classing and not doing anything to prevent getting behind in caster level, there's no worse thing anyone in the party could do than have Elan take a level of Cleric.


He doesn't have enough Wisdom to get any Cleric spells at all.
+0 to BAB
His turning ability would not work on anything that Haley couldn't already melee to death unarmed at her level.
Turn Undead in general has been spectacularly useless in this comic, aside from perhaps some off-screen turning in the Battle for Azure City. Oh, and spoiler: Azure City still lost.
He has no use for the additional armour proficiency because he can't wear any without kicking his Dashing Swordsman abilities in the groin.
In short, Elan would get nothing from a Cleric level EXCEPT the "would never actually matter" turning, and the ability to use a few additional magic items without a Use Magic Device check because he'd technically have some more spells in his class spell lists, even if he'd never have to Wisdom to actually cast any. Of course if he has ranks in UMD, this is pretty much a useless bonus too.


So sorry, no, it's not a very good idea at all. Belkar is the only person who might get less use from a Cleric level. Roy taking a Cleric level would be significantly better in that he'd at least be able to cast some spells, albeit with a cruddy caster level. Actually since Roy's gotten pretty much everything he'd ever want from Fighter (actually that's been true since level four), Cleric levels would vastly improve him from here on out. Two problems though; he's agnostic, and he considers being a single-class Fighter like his grandfather a point of pride.

[B. Dandelion]

Roy taking a Cleric level would be significantly better in that he'd at least be able to cast some spells, albeit with a cruddy caster level. Actually since Roy's gotten pretty much everything he'd ever want from Fighter (actually that's been true since level four), Cleric levels would vastly improve him from here on out. Two problems though; he's agnostic, and he considers being a single-class Fighter like his grandfather a point of pride.

I was wondering why no one had raised the idea of Roy going into cleric instead of Elan. It was odd to me that after the deva had specifically pointed out that Roy had the stats to be a decent cleric, the board discussion completely passed over him to focus instead on the character who would specifically be terrible as a cleric.

I didn't think it was too likely, both because of the reasons you already mentioned (Roy isn't particularly religious and he's happy to be single-classed), and because there are other ways in which to address this particular gap in the Order besides somebody multiclassing. But if somebody had to do it, it makes sense it'd be the person we're told would be good at it, and I think Roy would bite the bullet if he had to.

[Yendor]

I think the meatsheild with the +5 undead-harming sword is going to be far more effective than someone with one level of cleric and a penalty to wisdom.

I think the bard with a +3 rapier and mediocre combat skills would be more effective against undead than a first level cleric.

[NerdyKris]

Given that Roy can defeat 25 HD worth of mummies with a single attack, I don't find this particularly impressive. However, with Elan's family, he'd probably be happier working his way up to Project Image so he can hang out with a twin who isn't evil.

Which he can already do with his current illusion abilities, complete with audio.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Given that Roy can defeat 25 HD worth of mummies with a single attack...

In a single round, but not a single attack I don't think. It was drawn as one sword-swing, but pretty sure he used Great Cleave (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Great_Cleave).

[theNater]

Which he can already do with his current illusion abilities, complete with audio.
But can that illusory twin cast spells? That's obviously important because of...reasons.

Yeah, I got nothing.:smallredface:

In a single round, but not a single attack I don't think. It was drawn as one sword-swing, but pretty sure he used Great Cleave (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Great_Cleave).
I was trying to talk opportunity cost; Roy being able to use one of his attacks for the round on the mummies and then being able to use the rest of them on other targets, while Elan would only be using Turn Undead as his only offensive action for the round. Of course, I totally forgot that Roy would still get to use the cleaved attack on whatever other target he was after, so it actually doesn't cost him even one attack.

I need to learn not to post while I'm tired, apparently.

[dps]

Hm. What about Haley as a cleric? You could almost say it was forshadowed--they told Malack she was converting to the worship of Thor (granted, that was a lie, but...).

[Gorm_the_DBA]

I'm sure there's a Cleric specialization, ala Dashing Swordsman, which allows the player to substitute Charisma for Wisdom...

Call it "Televangelist"...

[JusticeZero]

Belkar as cleric: This is me taking the biggest dump since Belkar assigned his Wis stat.:smallannoyed:
Elan as cleric: "HEY GUYS! I GOT A FOUR!"
No. Just.. no. If Elan started taking all Cleric levels now, he would start to be able to fill the hole in their abilities sometime in the Epic levels.
The same is true of Roy, though Roy would get more out of it from a minmax standpoint. Except for the fact that Roy is totally non-religious. I dont see him going for any other Core classes other than Fighter. Some PRC maybe, but he won't get the midlevel spells they need from any of those that I know of.

On the other hand, Haley can, with the aid of a few magic sticks, use all of the spells that are showstoppers for them to be without, and toss them out like candy.

You know who else gets those spells? Paladins. Like all those guys in blue that they've been working with. Break Enchantment, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm) Death Ward, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm) and Restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) are the three spells they've been needing to rely on the most. Those are all available to a level 14 Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm).

Elan can learn Break Enchantment as a BARD spell as soon as he gets his next one if he wanted to, and the rest require seven levels of Cleric to get access to.

Or, y'know, a Rogue with ranks of Use Magic Device. :haley:

[dps]

I'm sure there's a Cleric specialization, ala Dashing Swordsman, which allows the player to substitute Charisma for Wisdom...

Call it "Televangelist"...

Actually, I think thats the Favored Soul PrC, or at least it's close to it. It was mentioned in another thread I think. The problem is, it would take several levels in it before Elan would get the spells that the Order will be needing. But then, that's the problem with any of them multi-classing to cleric--they'll need more than one level to get the really good stuff.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Or, y'know, a Rogue with ranks of Use Magic Device.

Or a bard with UMD, say one with a maxed CHA to begin with. Really, Haley's far better off using her bow than anything else.

[Kish]

Or a bard with UMD, say one with a maxed CHA to begin with.
...but few skill points due to an Intelligence penalty, and, unlike Haley, no established ranks in Use Magic Device.

[Snails]

Elan can already cast Mass Cure Light Wounds, which will vaporize weak undead, annoy strong undead, and help his friends -- all at once. Another level of Bard means another casting per day.

That far outstrips anything he could do with a cleric level, unless he has some very clever build that exploits Turning feats to gain further advantage from his high Cha bonus. Even such a build is more likely to help a melee specialist.

Elan is also probably only one level away from 15th level bard when he will gain Inspire Heroics (he has had 13 levels of bard for a while). That would be useful and in keeping with both his and other PC's personal growth within the Order. A level or three in Cleric cannot compete with that.

[Snails]

...but few skill points due to an Intelligence penalty, and, unlike Haley, no established ranks in Use Magic Device.

UMD is ab-sol-friggin' fabulous with good planning. Given that we have never seen Elan attempt to use such a skill, it is a good guess he never will -- even if it would be a reasonable character development wrinkle for Elan.

[Dr.Epic]

I think the bard with a +3 rapier and mediocre combat skills would be more effective against undead than a first level cleric.

Isn't Elan's rapier Keen?:smallconfused:

[FlawedParadigm]

Isn't Elan's rapier Keen?:smallconfused:

Yeeeees...although that's notoriously useless when discussing Elan's ability to deal with undead which are, by default, immune to critical hits, since they are considered to have no vital points to strike - which is really only credibly true with incorporeal undead, as corporeal undead still have joints and such, even if they don't require functioning organs to continue being mobile.

But I digress. Point is, Keen isn't really worth mentioning in this particular discussion. :tongue:

[Alias]

...Two problems though; he's agnostic,

That word doesn't mean what you think it means. Gnosticism is the question of knowledge, or proof, of divine phenomena. This includes belief in an afterlife.

An agnostic doesn't believe you can prove divinity exists. A gnostic believes you can.

Roy has been in the afterlife. The afterlife is demonstrably provable in the OOTS world. Roy in particularly cannot be an agnostic because he has experienced and remembers the very thing being an agnostic would require him to not believe in.

[multilis]

You know who else gets those spells? Paladins. Like all those guys in blue that they've been working with. Break Enchantment, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm) Death Ward, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm) and Restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) are the three spells they've been needing to rely on the most. Those are all available to a level 14 Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm):
So in other words they need to find a Miko bone, Rez her, and have her admit she made a mistake, slaughter some goblins and feed some orphans to become Paladin again. With Belkar soon not breathing and not for this world, last birthday cake, the main conflict with OOTS will be gone.

Why settle for an ordinary Paladin when you can get one that defeated entire OOTS and also Redcloak in a 1 on 1 battle! ;P

[FlawedParadigm]

That word doesn't mean what you think it means. Gnosticism is the question of knowledge, or proof, of divine phenomena. This includes belief in an afterlife.

An agnostic doesn't believe you can prove divinity exists. A gnostic believes you can.

Roy has been in the afterlife. The afterlife is demonstrably provable in the OOTS world. Roy in particularly cannot be an agnostic because he has experienced and remembers the very thing being an agnostic would require him to not believe in.

Gnosticism doesn't apply either, because that's a different belief regarding the balance or lack thereof between spirituality and materialism. I suppose I technically should have said "Roy is ambivalent in matters regarding deities because he believes that so long as he doesn't directly offend them, they'll leave him alone", but I didn't feel like being that technical or typing that much. So I just said "agnostic" because that word has acquired the connotation of meaning something similar to that, regardless of its denotations.

I hope you feel wasting time arguing these pointless semantics has contributed to the discussion.

[Alias]

I hope you feel wasting time arguing these pointless semantics has contributed to the discussion.

Ignorant people who misuse terms annoy me. Willfully ignorant people who insist on their misuse after being corrected is a major pet peeve of mine.

Gnosticism can refer to a Christian sect which has all but disappeared, but that wasn't the form of the term I was referring to. I was referring to the more modern use of the term in theological and philosophical discussion - the knowledge question, which is also referred to as gnosticism.

I find it amusing that you try to demean me by saying I'm being overly concerned with semantics while hypocritically and simultaneously being overly semantic yourself in insisting that a term ('gnosticism') only has one definition. It does not.

The term 'agnostic' is not a euphemism for atheist, though many misuse it that way.

Roy isn't agnostic, he's apatheistic. He knows they're there, he just doesn't care.

You can have the last word and even hurl a few more insults if you like. I'll not be responding further.

[F.Harr]

So a lot of people have been suspecting that Elan will finally start taking Cleric of Banjo levels now that Durkon is gone. Other people have wisely pointed out that given how many Bard levels he has, he'd actually get better healing by continuing to take Bard. However, there's something Clerics get that Bards don't, which could be very powerful in this situation: Turn Undead. The party don't currently have any turners, and they're going up against an enemy who uses a lot of zombies as mooks. Furthermore, Turn Undead is based on Charisma, which Elan has plenty of. With just a single level of Cleric, Elan can pretty reliably zap a dozen-plus zombies per turn, and he'd get seven or eight tries a day. Very worth a Cleric splash.

Would that interfer with him being a dashing swordsman? And would he have to give up the rapier for a hammer?

[F.Harr]

I'm sure there's a Cleric specialization, ala Dashing Swordsman, which allows the player to substitute Charisma for Wisdom...

Call it "Televangelist"...

That's an idea.

[FlawedParadigm]

Ignorant people who misuse terms annoy me. Willfully ignorant people who insist on their misuse after being corrected is a major pet peeve of mine.

Gnosticism can refer to a Christian sect which has all but disappeared, but that wasn't the form of the term I was referring to. I was referring to the more modern use of the term in theological and philosophical discussion - the knowledge question, which is also referred to as gnosticism.

I find it amusing that you try to demean me by saying I'm being overly concerned with semantics while hypocritically and simultaneously being overly semantic yourself in insisting that a term ('gnosticism') only has one definition. It does not.

The term 'agnostic' is not a euphemism for atheist, though many misuse it that way.

Roy isn't agnostic, he's apatheistic. He knows they're there, he just doesn't care.

You can have the last word and even hurl a few more insults if you like. I'll not be responding further.

If I wanted to demean or insult you personally, I'd do it. I have a number of infractions for not being the least bit subtle. What I attacked was your desire to nitpick something that was ultimately utterly unimportant. You even went so far as to say you did it for personal reasons, as if this were your board and you had a right to decide what is and isn't posted. Furthermore, all your points have been entirely hypocritical, since you were the one insisting agnostic had only one definition (which isn't true) and ignore also connotations (which is puerile.) Well, that is, the points which didn't have any basis in reality whatsoever. No one claimed, stated, implied, or elsewise in any way suggested agnosticism was a euphemism for atheism.

By all means, keep your silence. I assure you, I won't miss anything you have to say.

[Kish]

Would that interfer with him being a dashing swordsman? And would he have to give up the rapier for a hammer?
It seems doubtful that the Dashing Swordman prestige class has some kind of actively negative interaction with cleric levels.

Clerics are proficient in all simple weapons. Durkon used a warhammer either out of personal preference, or because it was Thor's favored weapon (each deity has a favored weapon). It seems unlikely that Banjo has a favored weapon of "warhammer"; even if Banjo has a favored weapon that isn't "rapier" even though his sole worshiper and the person who's making all this up is a Dashing Swordman (Elan is quite capable of sabotaging himself by going, "Banjo's favored weapon is...the kukri! I don't actually know what it is but it has a cool name!"), clerics are not required to use their deity's favored weapon.

[Snails]

Would that interfer with him being a dashing swordsman? And would he have to give up the rapier for a hammer?

In 3.5, there are usually no such issues. 3.5 Clerics are only limited to certain weapons because they start with proficiency in the "pretty good" list of weapons. There is nothing stopping a cleric from learning to fully use any of the better martial weapons -- it will cost them a feat just like anyone else. (Or cost a level in Fighter or somesuch, if giving up casting ability is actually acceptable.)

[ReaderAt2046]

It seems doubtful that the Dashing Swordman prestige class has some kind of actively negative interaction with cleric levels.

Clerics are proficient in all simple weapons. Durkon used a warhammer either out of personal preference, or because it was Thor's favored weapon (each deity has a favored weapon). It seems unlikely that Banjo has a favored weapon of "warhammer"; even if Banjo has a favored weapon that isn't "rapier" even though his sole worshiper and the person who's making all this up is a Dashing Swordman (Elan is quite capable of sabotaging himself by going, "Banjo's favored weapon is...the kukri! I don't actually know what it is but it has a cool name!"), clerics are not required to use their deity's favored weapon.

Given this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html), I'm pretty sure Banjo's sacred weapon is the banjo (Presumably if you have Weapon Proficiency: Banjo, you don't take the improvised weapon penalty).