Name of Book for current plotline

[doctor23]

Perhaps this has already been done and if so please point me in the correct direction. I was just wondering if anyone had any theories on what the next book will be named based off of what we have seen of the plot. My own theories revolve around something to do with fathers since we have now met Elan and Haley's fathers and Durkon has gotten a new "father". I was just seeking other thoughts.

[SaintRidley]

Blood, Sweat, and Tears/Tiers (one or the other, both have been suggested) is a favorite of mine.

[quasit]

"The empire strikes (Whatever) " where (whatever) rhimes with back.

[What'sThatThing]

"The empire strikes (Whatever) " where (whatever) rhimes with back.

The Empire Strikes Malack?

[Rogar Demonblud]

I've seen "Book of Blood" mentioned, since it plays on multiple themes here.

[Gift Jeraff]

Blood, Sweat, and Tiers
Episode V: The Linear Guild Strikes Back
The Not-So-Final Frontier
Sprawlin' Desert Tools
No Cure for the Empire Reds
War n' PCs
Don't Split the Party...Again
Start of Tarquin
Strips, Nales, and Draketooth Tales

[Ted The Bug]

I really hope it's not a Star Wars pun/reference.

Blood, Sweat and Tears is probably my favorite suggestion so far.

[FlawedParadigm]

A Tale of Two Pities
The Craven
A Middesert's Night Scream
In the Deserts of Sadness
Of Dice and Men

[dps]

The Grand Illusion.

All in the Familicide.

[SavageWombat]

Blood, Sweat, and Tears/Tiers (one or the other, both have been suggested) is a favorite of mine.

While I like this as a reference and as a pun, the term "Tiers" is not actually a D&D reference in any way, nor is it a reference to the comic, but simply a fan term used for game discussion. So I'm against it, I guess.

Edit: unless someone makes a reference to the tiers of the ziggurat at some point.

[Gift Jeraff]

While I like this as a reference and as a pun, the term "Tiers" is not actually a D&D reference in any way, nor is it a reference to the comic, but simply a fan term used for game discussion. So I'm against it, I guess.

Edit: unless someone makes a reference to the tiers of the ziggurat at some point.

Tier envy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0764.html)

[Mike Havran]

One Thousand and One Frights.

[Torrasque]

Strips, Nales, and Draketooth Tales

hah, that one is actually quite funny :)

[hamishspence]

So far, the books have had the outline of a character on the cover, who has a major plot arc in that book.

Dungeon Crawling Fools- Elan (discovers he has a brother, is betrayed)
No Cure for the Paladin Blues- Roy, who learns to stand by the rest of the party- and is now committed to stopping Xykon for better reasons.
War & XPs- Haley- who learns to stop keeping secrets unnecessarily
Don't Split the Party- V, who learns where the quest for "ultimate arcane power" can lead to.

(Durkon we see on the cover of On The Origin of PCs- where we see his prophesy.)

If the trend is continued- maybe it will be Belkar on the cover- and his character arc being learning to empathise with others, and be a better party member?

[Pheldagriff]

Familiy Affairs
or
Death in the Family

[y2kyle89]

Sand Trap
Duned to Failure

[Procyonpi]

My favorites are definitely "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" and "The Empire Strikes Back"

[XxXU2XxX]

I noticed many people are misspelling the pun.

The name of the book would be Blood, Sweat, and Tiers.

Blood, Sweat, and Tears is the exact Churchill quote.

[Procyonpi]

I noticed many people are misspelling the pun.

The name of the book would be Blood, Sweat, and Tiers.

Blood, Sweat, and Tears is the exact Churchill quote.

I actually explicitly didn't spell it tier's although I've seen it that way. Tiers is really more of an internet optimization reference than a DnD reference, and ruins some of the emotional impact. Meanwhile, "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" is plenty punny to me as it's already a triple reference:

1. The Chuchill quote
2. The empire names
3. Blood (family ties, vampires) Sweat (desert), and Tears (death of Durkon).

That seems plenty clever to me, and teirs just seams too cutesy.

[Red_Lava]

5d10 Shades of Grey

[Kish]

No "tier" references in the titles of OotS books, please OotS gods. :smallsigh:

The current storyline has actually shown less genuine moral grey than any of the prior ones. Lots of, "This villainous character is kind of grey...PSYCHE! He's actually as black as Xykon!"

[Friv]

So far, the books have had the outline of a character on the cover, who has a major plot arc in that book.

Dungeon Crawling Fools- Elan (discovers he has a brother, is betrayed)
No Cure for the Paladin Blues- Roy, who learns to stand by the rest of the party- and is now committed to stopping Xykon for better reasons.
War & XPs- Haley- who learns to stop keeping secrets unnecessarily
Don't Split the Party- V, who learns where the quest for "ultimate arcane power" can lead to.

(Durkon we see on the cover of On The Origin of PCs- where we see his prophesy.)

If the trend is continued- maybe it will be Belkar on the cover- and his character arc being learning to empathise with others, and be a better party member?

That would make sense.

This arc opened with a "Belkar learns a little, but not enough" in the desert, and if it closes out with him as well he'd be the right choice for a cover. Then the seventh cover could be Count Durkula, rounding it out for Kraagor's Gate.

Are there only seven books currently planned? Has the Giant discussed that at all?

I'm guessing some kind of Blood joke is going to be in there; this is the Empire of Blood, and the Malack and Durkon stuff is a big deal.

Is there a way to make a good pun out of Blood Relations?

Blood Revelations?

[Zherog]

Meanwhile, "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" is plenty punny to me as it's already a triple reference:

1. The Chuchill quote
2. The empire names
3. Blood (family ties, vampires) Sweat (desert), and Tears (death of Durkon).

That seems plenty clever to me, and teirs just seams too cutesy.

It's also the the name of a 70s Jazz / Rock band. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood,_Sweat_%26_Tears)

[Fish]

The Vampire Strikes Back.

[hamishspence]

Are there only seven books currently planned? Has the Giant discussed that at all?

Commentary in DStP suggested no more than seven compilations of online strips, since it was phrased as

"there will definitely be less compilation books forthcoming than have already been published, if you count this one."

though it also said "that's the plan"- so the plan might change.

[Olinser]

I, Vampire (or I, Halfling)
A Gallon of Blood and a Drop of Sweat
Heir to the Empire
Tarquin Rising
Mr Scruffy Goes To The Desert
Vamp My Cleric
CONTINENT's Next Top Dictator (not sure of the name of the continent)
Family Matters
An Undeath In The Family
Keeping Up With The ELANFAMILYNAME's (Not sure if Elan actually has a last name)
Dictating With The Stars

[SowZ]

No "tier" references in the titles of OotS books, please OotS gods. :smallsigh:

The current storyline has actually shown less genuine moral grey than any of the prior ones. Lots of, "This villainous character is kind of grey...PSYCHE! He's actually as black as Xykon!"

OOTS already does reference Tiers.

[rgrekejin]

I really do like "Blood, Sweat, and Tiers". But I'm sure I'll be delighted with whatever it ends up being.

[Olinser]

Thought of a couple more, my last post was getting a little long:

Tarquin and Son (or Tarquin and Sons)
My Two Sons
So I Adventured With A Mass Murderer
Lizard Meets Dwarf
Till Undeath Do We Part
Legally Bard
THIS...IS...TARQUIN!!! (or THOG!!)
How I Met My Father
A Game Of Bones
The Vampire Diaries (may have to be The Vampire Journals to avoid copyright)
Sons Of Anarchist
Little Dictatorship On The Desert
Lost in Desert
It's Always Sunny In The Desert (or In The Dictatorship)

[gorocz]

I actually explicitly didn't spell it tier's although I've seen it that way. Tiers is really more of an internet optimization reference than a DnD reference, and ruins some of the emotional impact. Meanwhile, "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" is plenty punny to me as it's already a triple reference:

1. The Chuchill quote
2. The empire names
3. Blood (family ties, vampires) Sweat (desert), and Tears (death of Durkon).

That seems plenty clever to me, and teirs just seams too cutesy.

You could argue that your 2nd and 3rd points are the same and the first puts them together. Tiers would add the DnD reference (class tiers, they are even debated here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0764.html) and yet we see Tarquin, a 5th tier class (probably) take the whole Order practically by himself) while keeping the above references, when pronounced, similiarly to the other books, which have a real life reference turned into a pun by a DnD term:

You take "Paladin" (as they are central to the plot of the book), they wear blue colors and make the Order unhappy for the most of the book (Miko) => Blues => you take something that contains the word "Blues" (no cure for Summertime Blues, a line from a song) and turned into a reference by substituting the DnD term for one of the words => No Cure for Paladin Blues

Same goes for the rest of the books (On the Origin of PCs - On the Origin of Species, War and XPs - War and Peace, etc.)

Making a good pun is obviously much more complicated if you wanted to do it on purpose, usually such things come accidentally but the reason I like the books' titles is that they reference both DnD and real life. When I first saw the title "Blood, Sweat and Tiers", I actually thought it was something The Giant announced because it was so in line with the theme of the naming of the previous books and the themes of the current plotline...

[Olinser]

You could argue that your 2nd and 3rd points are the same and the first puts them together. Tiers would add the DnD reference (class tiers, they are even debated here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0764.html) and yet we see Tarquin, a 5th tier class (probably) take the whole Order practically by himself) while keeping the above references, when pronounced, similiarly to the other books, which have a real life reference turned into a pun by a DnD term:

You take "Paladin" (as they are central to the plot of the book), they wear blue colors and make the Order unhappy for the most of the book (Miko) => Blues => you take something that contains the word "Blues" (no cure for Summertime Blues, a line from a song) and turned into a reference by substituting the DnD term for one of the words => No Cure for Paladin Blues

Same goes for the rest of the books (On the Origin of PCs - On the Origin of Species, War and XPs - War and Peace, etc.)

Making a good pun is obviously much more complicated if you wanted to do it on purpose, usually such things come accidentally but the reason I like the books' titles is that they reference both DnD and real life. When I first saw the title "Blood, Sweat and Tiers", I actually thought it was something The Giant announced because it was so in line with the theme of the naming of the previous books and the themes of the current plotline...

It's a lot simpler than that. "No Cure For The Paladin Blues" is a pun on "No Cure For The Summertime Blues", a song by Eddie Cochran.

[Kish]

OOTS already does reference Tiers.
Yes, I am aware of the single joke in one panel that indicates Rich is familiar with the Internet concept and does not consider it off limits for jokes.

Does that in some way modify anything I said?

[Olinser]

Yes, I am aware of the single joke in one panel that indicates Rich is familiar with the Internet concept and does not consider it off limits for jokes.

Does that in some way modify anything I said?

I believe he misread your initial post whining about "No tier references in the OOTS books" to be a statement saying, "There are no tier references in the OOTS books", and was proving you wrong.

[Haleth]

Just Deserts. :P XD

[gorocz]

It's a lot simpler than that. "No Cure For The Paladin Blues" is a pun on "No Cure For The Summertime Blues", a song by Eddie Cochran.


You take "Paladin" (as they are central to the plot of the book), they wear blue colors and make the Order unhappy for the most of the book (Miko) => Blues => you take something that contains the word "Blues" (no cure for Summertime Blues, a line from a song) and turned into a reference by substituting the DnD term for one of the words => No Cure for Paladin Blues


I said that. The song's name is "Summertime Blues" (also covered by The Who, for example) and "'cause there ain't no cure for the summertime blues" is a line from it...

[doctor23]

Many good suggestions. I'm really liking All in the Familicide

[Procyonpi]

Heir to the Empire


Is that a Timothy Zahn reference?

Also, how I met my father was kinda clever.

[Gift Jeraff]

Just Deserts. :P XD

Or Unjust Deserts. :smalltongue:

[Procyonpi]

You could argue that your 2nd and 3rd points are the same and the first puts them together. Tiers would add the DnD reference (class tiers, they are even debated here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0764.html) and yet we see Tarquin, a 5th tier class (probably) take the whole Order practically by himself) while keeping the above references, when pronounced, similiarly to the other books, which have a real life reference turned into a pun by a DnD term:

You take "Paladin" (as they are central to the plot of the book), they wear blue colors and make the Order unhappy for the most of the book (Miko) => Blues => you take something that contains the word "Blues" (no cure for Summertime Blues, a line from a song) and turned into a reference by substituting the DnD term for one of the words => No Cure for Paladin Blues

Same goes for the rest of the books (On the Origin of PCs - On the Origin of Species, War and XPs - War and Peace, etc.)

Making a good pun is obviously much more complicated if you wanted to do it on purpose, usually such things come accidentally but the reason I like the books' titles is that they reference both DnD and real life. When I first saw the title "Blood, Sweat and Tiers", I actually thought it was something The Giant announced because it was so in line with the theme of the naming of the previous books and the themes of the current plotline...

I'll notice you didn't mention Don't Split the Party or Dungeon Crawling Fools, which aren't puns at all. Using "tiers" instead of "tears" just strikes me as a bit too cutesy considering the relatively dark (in comparison to the other books) content, and probably at least half the reader base wouldn't get the joke (plenty of people read the strip who don't play DnD, and most casual players aren't familiar with the concept of class tiers).

[Olinser]

Is that a Timothy Zahn reference?

Also, how I met my father was kinda clever.

Yes it is. Tarquin has made a number of Star Wars jokes and puns and whatnot - if the book title involves Tarquin, I'd be surprised if it DIDN'T include a Star Wars pun.

[gorocz]

I'll notice you didn't mention Don't Split the Party or Dungeon Crawling Fools, which aren't puns at all. Using "tiers" instead of "tears" just strikes me as a bit too cutesy considering the relatively dark (in comparison to the other books) content, and probably at least half the reader base wouldn't get the joke (plenty of people read the strip who don't play DnD, and most casual players aren't familiar with the concept of class tiers).

Yeah, you got me there... Dungeon Crawlin' Fools would be justifiable because it's the first one. Don't Split the Party...I'm guessing the theme of the book was too strong.

I guess you're right about the dark theme. If I look at it, DStP was also very dark (Roy being dead, V's deal with the devil (and demon and daemon), etc.), so that might've been the reason for the lack of pun in title. It is DnD themed though - rule #1 (or #2, depending if the DM rule is #0 or #1) - Never Split the Party.

Blood, Sweat and Tears just doesn't have anything to do with DnD, I'm guessing that was my main problem, not the lack of pun...

[Kish]

Despite what a number of people seem to think, Tiers is not an official D&D term. It's entirely possible to play D&D for decades without reading what people say about it on the Internet and have no concept of what "D&D Tiers" mean when you first see it used.

So even if an explicit D&D reference was required, changing Tears to Tiers would not be it. Dungeon Crawlin' Fools is set in a dungeon, Don't Split the Party is about the long split in the party, No Cure for the Paladin Blues is about paladins, the color blue, and Miko depressing the Order. Do you think the current story is about the power differential between fighters and wizards? Sticking "Tiers" in the title would just be a weird non-sequitur.

[FlawedParadigm]

I'll admit it's clever, mostly on-theme, and chances are anyone who likes a WEBcomic which they are ordering off the INTERNET can probably Google up "tiers" if it confuses them. If the book actually gets named "Blood, Sweat, and Tiers" and they Google that, I'm sure by then it'll point them to this very forum if it doesn't already and they'll have the wit explained to them in short order.

Of course I still like "Of Dice and Men" (although I think Knights of the Dinner Table used that at some point, I may be misremembering) and "A Tale of Two Pities", and I'd like to think those are objective likes, but I did suggest them, sooooo...

[Kish]

What would the two pities be?

[Zerter]

Despite what a number of people seem to think, Tiers is not an official D&D term. It's entirely possible to play D&D for decades without reading what people say about it on the Internet and have no concept of what "D&D Tiers" mean when you first see it used.

So even if an explicit D&D reference was required, changing Tears to Tiers would not be it. Dungeon Crawlin' Fools is set in a dungeon, Don't Split the Party is about the long split in the party, No Cure for the Paladin Blues is about paladins, the color blue, and Miko depressing the Order. Do you think the current story is about the power differential between fighters and wizards? Sticking "Tiers" in the title would just be a weird non-sequitur.

Official D&D term? Can you quote the persons that called it that? Because what I seem to read is that people suggest it is a D&D term, which it is. It is also a explicit D&D reference.

[JackRose]

Lays of Ancient Gnome?

(There's not actually a gnome in here prominently, (unless Belkar gets vamped and it's revealed that all gnomes are actually just vampire halflings)) but Lays of Ancient Rome contains the poem Horatius, which begins

Lars Porsena of Clusium
By the Nine Gods he swore
That the great house of Tarquin
Should suffer wrong no more.

[Kish]

Official D&D term? Can you quote the persons that called it that?

Couldn't resist. Here:

Because what I seem to read is that people suggest it is a D&D term, which it is.

Now. Again. Do you think the current story is about the power differential between fighters and wizards? Or are you just looking for something with a "D&D term" in it, actual references to the events chronicled therein being somewhere between optional and irrelevant?

Edited to clarify: I am not suggesting Rich can't, or even necessarily won't, put an Internet term in the title of one of his books. I am saying that "there has to be a D&D term"->"so if he's thinking of Blood, Sweat, and Tears he'll change Tears to Tiers" is a broken line of reasoning.

[rgrekejin]

Couldn't resist. Here:

Kish, you seem to be confused about the meaning of the word "Official". Is "Tier" a term you'll find in the glossary of the player's handbook? No. Is it a term that that many D&D players use? Absolutely.


Now. Again. Do you think the current story is about the power differential between fighters and wizards? Or are you just looking for something with a "D&D term" in it, actual references to the events chronicled therein being somewhere between optional and irrelevant?

...I've noticed that you've left "War and XPs" off of your list of examples in your previous post, probably because it contradicts the argument you're trying to make here. Unless you're somehow arguing that people gaining or losing XP was critical to the plot of the Battle of Azure City arc, your argument falls to pieces. It was a cute title that was more or less descriptive of the contents of the book and involved a pun-y D&D term. Would "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" be a semi-accurate description of the events of the current arc? Certainly. The Empires of Blood, Sweat, and Tears are all in play. The Order is presently undergoing an incredibly trying experience. Both of those aspects work for "Blood, Sweat, and Tears". Is "Tiers" a commonly used D&D term (and it is, regardless of your own inexplicable personal distaste for it) that sounds like "Tears" and could be substituted for it to pun-y effect? Why yes, I believe it is.

[Sime]

Sands of the father.

[Zerter]

Okay, so apparantly no one used official anywhere but you :smallsmile:.


Now. Again. Do you think the current story is about the power differential between fighters and wizards? Or are you just looking for something with a "D&D term" in it, actual references to the events chronicled therein being somewhere between optional and irrelevant?

I am going to go with... neither :smallwink:.

[Kish]

...I've noticed that you've left "War and XPs" out of your list of examples, probably because it contradicts the argument you're trying to make here.

You know...I wouldn't have expected the immediate accusation of intellectual dishonesty from you.

Yes. There is one title where the direct and obvious reference to the events is in the part of the title that links it to a classic novel, not the part that links it to D&D. And, perhaps, I'll be the only person on this forum to find it both surprising and disappointing if Rich names the next book "Blood, Sweat, and Tiers." Meh.

[rgrekejin]

You know...I wouldn't have expected the immediate accusation of intellectual dishonesty from you.

You're right, that was unfair. I apologize.

Edit: Now that I think about it, so was the line about you inexplicably disliking the "tier" terminology. I'm all sorts of snippy and accusational today, aren't I? :smallsigh:

[Peelee]

No "tier" references in the titles of OotS books, please OotS gods. :smallsigh:

Despite that how late in the game I am for this thread, I would very much like to second this.

[Olinser]

You know...I wouldn't have expected the immediate accusation of intellectual dishonesty from you.

Yes. There is one title where the direct and obvious reference to the events is in the part of the title that links it to a classic novel, not the part that links it to D&D. And, perhaps, I'll be the only person on this forum to find it both surprising and disappointing if Rich names the next book "Blood, Sweat, and Tiers." Meh.

From the sounds of it... pretty much, yes, you will be the only one that doesn't think it's a great name.

Honestly from the tone of your argument it really sounds like you play a low-tier character in D&D, and whenever anybody tries to tell you it is underpowered you get defensive and claim there are no character tiers.

[Peelee]

Honestly from the tone of your argument it really sounds like you play a low-tier character in D&D, and whenever anybody tries to tell you it is underpowered you get defensive and claim there are no character tiers.

Thank you for posting this, actually, because this is exactly the reason I wish I never knew about the Tier system. The group of friends I have who game - and it is a large enough number that we have had several different campaigns with several different people - are all alike in on way; we play to have fun. Not to powergame or min/max and try to get away with everything under the sun. If a player wants to run a pure Fighter build at 17th level in a party with a pure Wizard, Druid, and Cleric, and has fun, nobody has any issues. From the tone of your argument, you would just constantly tell the Fighter that he is an underpowered class, which serves no purpose other than to try to get him to stop having fun. We play D&D because it is a roleplaying fantasy game where we can do anything we want. If all we wanted to do all day was blast away with the biggest gun we have, there's tons of FPS on consoles for that.

[rgrekejin]

Thank you for posting this, actually, because this is exactly the reason I wish I never knew about the Tier system. The group of friends I have who game - and it is a large enough number that we have had several different campaigns with several different people - are all alike in on way; we play to have fun. Not to powergame or min/max and try to get away with everything under the sun. If a player wants to run a pure Fighter build at 17th level in a party with a pure Wizard, Druid, and Cleric, and has fun, nobody has any issues. From the tone of your argument, you would just constantly tell the Fighter that he is an underpowered class, which serves no purpose other than to try to get him to stop having fun. We play D&D because it is a roleplaying fantasy game where we can do anything we want. If all we wanted to do all day was blast away with the biggest gun we have, there's tons of FPS on consoles for that.

You know, the funny thing is, this is the way my group works, too. We presently consist of a druid, a cleric, a wizard, a scout, a warlock, and a dragon shaman, all of whom are at 15th level and woefully unoptimized. But the tier system just doesn't bother me the way it bothers you, maybe because everyone I play with understands that it's a concept that only matters for certain playstyles, and ours is not one of the ones that it matters for.

...that being said, though, since I have an immediate and vitriolic reaction to people suggesting that playing a martial adept is the only viable way to play a mundane combatant, perhaps I've been too hard on those who wish to not see "tiers" in a book title. I know that I'd be irked if Tarquin turned out to have levels in one of those silly martial adept classes.

[SavageWombat]

From the sounds of it... pretty much, yes, you will be the only one that doesn't think it's a great name.

Honestly from the tone of your argument it really sounds like you play a low-tier character in D&D, and whenever anybody tries to tell you it is underpowered you get defensive and claim there are no character tiers.

No, he's not the only one. And it's not because of the quality of the pun - we just hate the "tier" concept. For exactly this attitude. Personally, I think it ruins the hobby.

It may be "irrational", and I'm sure Kish would agree - but it's hardly "inexplicable".

[Olinser]

Thank you for posting this, actually, because this is exactly the reason I wish I never knew about the Tier system. The group of friends I have who game - and it is a large enough number that we have had several different campaigns with several different people - are all alike in on way; we play to have fun. Not to powergame or min/max and try to get away with everything under the sun. If a player wants to run a pure Fighter build at 17th level in a party with a pure Wizard, Druid, and Cleric, and has fun, nobody has any issues. From the tone of your argument, you would just constantly tell the Fighter that he is an underpowered class, which serves no purpose other than to try to get him to stop having fun. We play D&D because it is a roleplaying fantasy game where we can do anything we want. If all we wanted to do all day was blast away with the biggest gun we have, there's tons of FPS on consoles for that.

Wrong. I don't particularly care what a character plays - as long as they UNDERSTAND the ramifications of their decision.

If somebody wants to play a pure Fighter, more power to them. If they try to claim that they're playing the Fighter because he's just as powerful as a pure Wizard.... we're going to have a problem.

You can play to have fun and still be able to acknowledge that some characters are simply underpowered. Most campaigns are rendered pretty boring by everybody playing a Munchkin every time.

Most of the time that is the purpose of having pre-built characters for a campaign - so that you have a fairly balanced party that isn't too overpowered (or underpowered).

The difference lies in acknowledging that your character is underpowered and having fun anyway - and pretending that they are just as powerful as top-tier characters.

Most players that make the argument you have all share a key factor: they can never admit that the character they are playing is, in fact, underpowered.

Hell I've done it more than once myself. I love to troll lower level League of Legends games playing AD Sona. It's a blast to win playing that build - but I would never try to claim that it is anywhere but a bottom-tier build.

[Peelee]

You know, the funny thing is, this is the way my group works, too. We presently consist of a druid, a cleric, a wizard, a scout, a warlock, and a dragon shaman, all of whom are at 15th level and woefully unoptimized. But the tier system just doesn't bother me the way it bothers you, maybe because everyone I play with understands that it's a concept that only matters for certain playstyles, and ours is not one of the ones that it matters for.

That hits the nail on the head. I will say I never heard of the tier system before visiting this site, and the only times I have come across it are when people are complaining about someone being too low-tier in a high-tier party (usually this is actually people who are the high-tier characters complaining about their low-tier friend!), or otherwise accusatory or inflammatory ways. It has given me a great dislike of the Tier system as a whole.

[Peelee]

Wrong. I don't particularly care what a character plays - as long as they UNDERSTAND the ramifications of their decision.

If somebody wants to play a pure Fighter, more power to them. If they try to claim that they're playing the Fighter because he's just as powerful as a pure Wizard.... we're going to have a problem.

You can play to have fun and still be able to acknowledge that some characters are simply underpowered. Most campaigns are rendered pretty boring by everybody playing a Munchkin every time.

Most of the time that is the purpose of having pre-built characters for a campaign - so that you have a fairly balanced party that isn't too overpowered (or underpowered).

The difference lies in acknowledging that your character is underpowered and having fun anyway - and pretending that they are just as powerful as top-tier characters.

Most players that make the argument you have all share a key factor: they can never admit that the character they are playing is, in fact, underpowered.

Hell I've done it more than once myself. I love to troll lower level League of Legends games playing AD Sona. It's a blast to win playing that build - but I would never try to claim that it is anywhere but a bottom-tier build.

Again, all you seem to care about in this matter is power. You give off the impression that only power = fun. If I'm underpowered and someone like you confronts me about it, yes, I'd admit it. I just don't care. I don't run underpowered things to troll others. I run them because I like the fluff, the potential aspects it opens up for roleplaying in the DM's world, and I want to see how I can play around in that world. Not to troll people, but because that's how I want to play.

[SavageWombat]

Not to mention the assumption that "low-tier" characters are underpowered, instead of realizing that the power-gamed "high-tier" characters are overpowered. Look at the way the game designers (the poor doomed fools) intended that the game be played, and you realize that the wizards and priests of the world were meant to be equals to the fighters and paladins - but the more options you give for character tweaking, the greater the effect on the most-tweakable classes.

Summary: if you don't play the game that way, you don't have the problem. Tiers come solely from excessive min-maxing.

[Olinser]

Again, all you seem to care about in this matter is power. You give off the impression that only power = fun. If I'm underpowered and someone like you confronts me about it, yes, I'd admit it. I just don't care. I don't run underpowered things to troll others. I run them because I like the fluff, the potential aspects it opens up for roleplaying in the DM's world, and I want to see how I can play around in that world. Not to troll people, but because that's how I want to play.

You see that because that's what you WANT to see.

I have not once claimed that you shouldn't play lower-tier characters. I have stated outright that a game where you only have Munchkins (min-maxers of the worst sort) is incredibly boring.

The difference is that I acknowledge those characters are less powerful - and have fun playing them anyway. You seem hell-bent on trying to disprove the fact that they aren't as good.

Is the difference enough that only top tier characters are viable? Of course not!

You just can't admit that some characters are not as powerful as others. It's a fact of life - in a game with as many classes and races, some of them are going to be better than others. Have fun with it anyway - but DON'T try to claim that they are all equal.

[Zerter]

This thread is getting a bit derailed. Not that I care :D.

From my experience the people that are extremely sensitive about stuff like tiers are the same people that don't allow you to play a earth Kobold because it's in UA and therefore powergaming. Tiers are nothing but a concept that can help you to understand the system. Any emotional attachment to it is really more about you.

I have never heard the term at the gaming table, but I wish I did. The more uneducated the DM or the player, the more likely the balance between characters is out of whack or a lot of options are off the table for no good reason. Sure you can have good sessions with huge intra-party differences and limited options, but just read these forums to understand neither contributes to the goodness of those sessions.

[Peelee]

You see that because that's what you WANT to see.
*snip*
You just can't admit that some characters are not as powerful as others. It's a fact of life - in a game with as many classes and races, some of them are going to be better than others. Have fun with it anyway - but DON'T try to claim that they are all equal.

Fun fact - I never once claimed they were all equal, In fact, if I may quote myself,
If I'm underpowered and someone like you confronts me about it, yes, I'd admit it. I just don't care.
You did claim that all munchkin-run games would get old fast. You also said you love playing (i assume some underpowered type) in League of Legends, because you love trolling people when you win as that.

D&D isn't a game that you win. You like to play to win and troll people. Good for you. I don't. I don't care if I am the most effective member of the party. I don't care if I don't get any kills in any of the battles we fight. I don't care if I'm a Fighter who takes the Leadership feat, has 18 DEX, and throws every skill point I can into maxing out the cross-class Diplomacy so I can try to start my own guild, all the member of which are completely inneffectual against the Ghost we're trying to defeat. I care about having fun with it, by playing the way I want to play. You advocate the Tier system, and keep trying to tell me I am wrong in some way because I don't. Except if I have fun the way I play, and everyone else at the table does as well, there is nothing wrong with it.

[FlawedParadigm]

What would the two pities be?

Pick a couple. There's been plenty in the last 208 strips since the last book. For me, it's the full impact of Familicide and what's happened to Durkon. I'm sure you could find your own pair amidst the various tragedies in this book.

[Olinser]

This thread is getting a bit derailed. Not that I care :D.

From my experience the people that are extremely sensitive about stuff like tiers are the same people that don't allow you to play a earth Kobold because it's in UA and therefore powergaming. Tiers are nothing but a concept that can help you to understand the system. Any emotional attachment to it is really more about you.

I have never heard the term at the gaming table, but I wish I did. The more uneducated the DM or the player, the more likely the balance between characters is out of whack or a lot of options are off the table for no good reason. Sure you can have good sessions with huge intra-party differences and limited options, but just read these forums to understand neither contributes to the goodness of those sessions.

Yeah, I agree, lets go back to guessing names.

I hereby propose Romance of the Three Guilds (Team Evil is the third one).

Or perhaps, "Tarquin's Art Of War" or "The Art of War" by Tarquin

[SavageWombat]

You see that because that's what you WANT to see.

I have not once claimed that you shouldn't play lower-tier characters. I have stated outright that a game where you only have Munchkins (min-maxers of the worst sort) is incredibly boring.

The difference is that I acknowledge those characters are less powerful - and have fun playing them anyway. You seem hell-bent on trying to disprove the fact that they aren't as good.

Is the difference enough that only top tier characters are viable? Of course not!

You just can't admit that some characters are not as powerful as others. It's a fact of life - in a game with as many classes and races, some of them are going to be better than others. Have fun with it anyway - but DON'T try to claim that they are all equal.

But, you see, in other threads we've got people claiming that one character should automatically have been able to defeat another SOLELY on the basis of their respective tiers. As if this ruins the verisimilitude of the comic or something.

What you're saying is "I know I'm playing a weak character, but it's all for fun". Whether you mean it or not, this statement enables the people who think that other players who don't optimize ruin their game.

What you should be saying is "There's nothing wrong with playing any kind of character". Don't encourage the min-maxers in their belief that their play-style is superior. Fight for a post-classial society. I had a dream that one day, in the Redmountain hills, the players of wizards and the players of bards will roll dice at a table of mutual appreciation.

[FlawedParadigm]

I'd like to third the "please take the argument about tiers elsewhere" notion. I start avoiding main comic threads when it crops up in those and avoid any thread that sounds to be about how unoptimised anyone in OotS is. Let's leave this to the discussion about titles please? :)

[Peelee]

I'd like to third the "please take the argument about tiers elsewhere" notion. I start avoiding main comic threads when it crops up in those and avoid any thread that sounds to be about how unoptimised anyone in OotS is. Let's leave this to the discussion about titles please? :)

I've been one of the loudest voices in that argument, and I have to agree.

While I love Timothy Zahn and every one of his books that I've read, "Heir to the Empire" is a word-for-word rehash title of his book, and I don't see Elan being the heir to Tarquin's Empire, or Durkon being the heir to Malak's. As much as I love the original and any references to it, I don't see this one working.

[Olinser]

Or perhaps:

A Chaotic Good Bard in a Lawful Evil Court (play off of A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court).

[Ftep]

Although "Blood, Sweat, and Tiers" doesn't sound likely to me, I think it's most probable that the title will involve the word "blood" in some way. The bulk of the story has taken place in the Empire of Blood, Elan and Haley's blood ties have been explored further, and now the business with Durkon.

A while back, I was thinking "Just Deserts" or "Unjust Deserts" were likely titles, but now I'm expecting blood. Lots and lots of blood.

Or maybe just something about fathers, since that also applies to Elan, Haley, and Durkon now. I dunno.

[gorocz]

Sands of the father.

You know, earlier today I was thinking about common phrases containing the word father (because, as mentioned, fathers have been a big theme), Sins of the father actually came to my mind but for some reason I didn't think of this... Seems so obvious in hindsight :smallbiggrin:

Random thought: All's Quiet on the Western Cont. :smallsmile:

[FlawedParadigm]

Oooh, Through My Father's Lies (instead of eyes.) Bonus points in that in some way, all three of the major fathers are liars.

[TheYell]

Chomp Those Monkeys

[Olinser]

Oooh, Through My Father's Lies (instead of eyes.) Bonus points in that in some way, all three of the major fathers are liars.

Oh man, I like that one!

[Kish]

Oooh, Through My Father's Lies (instead of eyes.) Bonus points in that in some way, all three of the major fathers are liars.
I doubt the title will include a plot spoiler for the contents; we weren't meant to know right away what a liar Tarquin is.

[FlawedParadigm]

I doubt the title will include a plot spoiler for the contents; we weren't meant to know right away what a liar Tarquin is.

Could just as well refer to Haley's father, although we're not meant to know right away that's who it is, either. Even the first mention of him is as a liar.

(Are there actually people who order the books without having read the strips first anyhow? I mean I assume there's at least a few, but are we talking even 1% here?)

[Zerter]

(Are there actually people who order the books without having read the strips first anyhow? I mean I assume there's at least a few, but are we talking even 1% here?)

I could imagine a few scenarios which see this come to play. One could buy the comic for a D&D-playing friend. No need to even have read the comic for that to happen. One could borrow the book to a fellow party member in order to convince that member of the greatness that is OoTS. I am guessing it is a minority that reads the book without having read the comic, but a sizable minority.

[Kurald Galain]

Of Dice and Men

I like this one!

[Kish]

Avoiding the "tier" debate by request, each of the previous books has had a title which refers to the specific contents in some way, unless I'm forgetting one again. War and XPs may not have had a focus on XPs but it certainly had one on war.

So I do not expect "Of Dice and Men" or any similar "it's a D&D pun that could work for any random collection of OotS strips" to be chosen as a title.

[rgrekejin]

War and XPs may not have had a focus on XPs but it certainly had one on war.

So I do not expect "Of Dice and Men" or any similar "it's a D&D pun that could work for any random collection of OotS strips" to be chosen as a title.

This is my expectation as well. One of the reasons I suspect that "Blood, Sweat, and Tiers" has so much support is because it is one of the few good suggestions that actually matches the current plot arc exclusively. But the vast majority of the suggestions so far have all involved Tarquin's role as Elan's father or the Empire of Blood. I suppose the book title could just as easily make a pun about illusions or paranoia or something.

[SavageWombat]

This is my expectation as well. One of the reasons I suspect that "Blood, Sweat, and Tiers" has so much support is because it is one of the few good suggestions that actually matches the current plot arc exclusively. But the vast majority of the suggestions so far have all involved Tarquin's role as Elan's father or the Empire of Blood. I suppose the book title could just as easily make a pun about illusions or paranoia or something.

It's also a little too literal, since the Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears have been directly referenced. But I agree it sounds more like a title than many of the other suggestions.

I agree that the idea of including Blood (the empire, the fathers, the familicide, the vampire) is so strong a theme that it begs to be in the title. I just need to think of a different pun to use with it.

[hamishspence]

Don't Split The Party wasn't a punny name- maybe this one won't be either.

[FlawedParadigm]

So I do not expect "Of Dice and Men" or any similar "it's a D&D pun that could work for any random collection of OotS strips" to be chosen as a title.

I don't expect any fan suggestion to be chosen by Rich for anything ever in the first place. Just having fun.

[hamishspence]

I don't think it's "fan suggestions" so much as "attempts to figure out what sort of name The Giant would choose".

[Fish]

Maybe I'm the only one who sees "tiers" as the levels in the ziggurat/step pyramid thingy. You know, tiers... of a large structure. It could work.

[rgrekejin]

Don't Split The Party wasn't a punny name- maybe this one won't be either.

...Don't Split the Party wasn't punny?

[Ralph]

All You Need Is Blood?

[hamishspence]

...Don't Split the Party wasn't punny?

Not according to this post:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7195040&postcount=12

[Porthos]

...Don't Split the Party wasn't punny?

Nope. Rich made a point to say that he didn't want to be pigeonholed into having to have a literary pun in a title. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7210767&postcount=120)

Mind, I still would have really liked A Tale of Two Parties. :smalltongue:

[rgrekejin]

Not according to this post:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7195040&postcount=12

Huh. I always thought that it was using the 70's-slang version of "split", and that the title was an exhortation to the reader, meaning something like "Don't Split (leave) the Party (the story) (things are just about to get interesting)." It actually took me a while to realize the D&D-related aspect of it.

[Olinser]

Thought of a new great one, "Blood Ties".

Covers both the blood and the family aspect!

[Ron Miel]

Bloodline
Fatherland
Thicker Than Water
The Empire Strikes Bard

[Kokomo]

Here are a few ideas I had fun with. Some... don't really work as titles, but it was fun. The object of the exercise was fun!

Plays on famous titles:
Blood and Sandworms
Fathering Heights
Tried and Prejudiced
Snatch Arrows and the Art of Empire Maintenance
Durkon Quixote
Punishment and Punishment

Other:
Major Scale
Continental Grift

And for the hypothetical Thieves' Guild prequel book:
Sketches by Bozzok

Apologies in advance if these have been made before.

[Unkillable_Cat]

A Bloodline in the Sand

References Durkon's current predicament, the current setting and the family connections of Elan/Nale/Tarquin and Haley/Ian. Also hints at the 'stand' that the OOTS will have to make against both the Linear Guild and Team Evil at Girard's Gate.

[Solse]

Huh. I always thought that it was using the 70's-slang version of "split", and that the title was an exhortation to the reader, meaning something like "Don't Split (leave) the Party (the story) (things are just about to get interesting)." It actually took me a while to realize the D&D-related aspect of it.

In fact, one of WotC's D&D slogans is "Never Split the Party".

[Aolbain]

The Empire Strikes Bard

Yep, definitely that one.

[Prospero7]

Blood, Sweat and Fears

Tears or Fears? (Yeah, I just really dated myself with that one...:eek:)

[hamishspence]

I don't know what it will be called- but I predict it will have Belkar on the cover, a spine colour in some way associated with him (maybe pale green compared to Snips Snails & Dragon Tales's dark green) and make a point of his evolution.

Since each book has done this so far. Dungeon Crawling Fools was Elan, Paladin Blues was Roy, War & XPs was Haley. Don't Split the Party was V. The prequel book Origin of PCs was Durkon. That just leaves Belkar.

[Olinser]

I don't know what it will be called- but I predict it will have Belkar on the cover, a spine colour in some way associated with him (maybe pale green compared to Snips Snails & Dragon Tales's dark green) and make a point of his evolution.

Since each book has done this so far. Dungeon Crawling Fools was Elan, Paladin Blues was Roy, War & XPs was Haley. Don't Split the Party was V. The prequel book Origin of PCs was Durkon. That just leaves Belkar.

What? This book has been much more about Elan than anybody else. Belkar is a distant second.

How are you thinking Dungeon Crawling Fools was about Elan? It didn't really focus on any of the party. With Roy's dad popping in and out, and following him as he tries to keep the party together, it was much more Roy-focused than Elan.

[hamishspence]

Elan was on the cover, and Elan met his twin brother, who tried to kill him- and yet despite this- he saved him, and had him sent to jail.

[Olinser]

Elan was on the cover, and Elan met his twin brother, who tried to kill him- and yet despite this- he saved him, and had him sent to jail.

Everybody else is on the cover too, Elan doesn't even stick out... and Roy had much more history and exposition than Elan. Hell, the reason they're in the dungeon in the first place is because of Roy's blood oath.

[hamishspence]

Elan's outline, I mean.

Look on the Shop page, you'll see each book has a large line drawing of a character on it.

[toughluck]

I'll notice you didn't mention Don't Split the Party or Dungeon Crawling Fools, which aren't puns at all. Using "tiers" instead of "tears" just strikes me as a bit too cutesy considering the relatively dark (in comparison to the other books) content, and probably at least half the reader base wouldn't get the joke (plenty of people read the strip who don't play DnD, and most casual players aren't familiar with the concept of class tiers).
Of course Don't Split the Party is a pun. Splitting the party in RPG sense is just one level. Split is also a word for leave, especially if quickly and unexpectedly -- you can read the title as Don't Leave the Party.
Dungeon Crawlin' Fools is a different case and I'd be hard pressed to find the pun in there, but it's the first book, so I guess Rich was still trying to find his own style.
(Okay, I guess I might have been ninja'd a few times over, but I didn't see anybody commenting this title further.)

[hamishspence]

(Okay, I guess I might have been ninja'd a few times over, but I didn't see anybody commenting this title further.)

I did point out earlier that The Giant has stated in a post that it's not a pun.

[Kish]

Of course Don't Split the Party is a pun.
Even though the author and person who chose that title said otherwise?

[FlawedParadigm]

Even though the author and person who chose that title said otherwise?

Let's not let a little thing like facts get in the way of interpretations.

[toughluck]

It's not a surprise that I was ninja'd after all.
FWIW, I am interpreting Rich's statement as confirmation that it's not a pun on a title from classic literature, so as not to fall into that conceit.
However, it's still a pun in the broader definition of it being a language joke with a double meaning. "Don't Split the Party" simply doesn't work as a title if it didn't have a double meaning.

As for the current book, I think "All You Need Is Blood" works incredibly well. Or how about "Conquer and Rejoin"?

[Peelee]

Durkon Quixote


While I think this one is unbelievably unlikely, I'm in love with it.

[Kish]

"Don't Split the Party" simply doesn't work as a title if it didn't have a double meaning.
Quite a bold claim.

[toughluck]

Quite a bold claim.

Maybe, I've been wrong before.

[Procyonpi]

Maybe, I've been wrong before.

Well considering Rich has Explicitly said (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7195040&postcount=12) it isn't a pun...

[toughluck]

Well considering Rich has Explicitly said (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7195040&postcount=12) it isn't a pun...
It really seemed like an off-hand response to somebody stating that it's a pun on something specific, like a title of a book or song.

Since there's a double meaning to the title, it's still a pun by definition, even if it was purely accidental on Rich's part (which I doubt).

[Kish]

I wish you much luck finding a title no forumite can read a pun into.

[gorocz]

Let's not let a little thing like facts get in the way of interpretations.
Can I sig this quote? :smallbiggrin:

On topic of DStP:
It's not a pun if the etymologies are connected. Leave a group as in divide it into two parts => split.

[FlawedParadigm]

Can I sig this quote? :smallbiggrin:

On topic of DStP:
It's not a pun if the etymologies are connected. Leave a group as in divide it into two parts => split.

Have at it. :smallbiggrin:

[Porthos]

It really seemed like an off-hand response to somebody stating that it's a pun on something specific, like a title of a book or song.

Since there's a double meaning to the title, it's still a pun by definition, even if it was purely accidental on Rich's part (which I doubt).


Funny thing: "A Tale of Two Parties" was on my list of possible titles, but I felt like I had gone to the "pun on classic literature" well a few too many times. Three out of five books was starting to be a pattern. Better to reference something else, like conventional D&D wisdom.

Now maybe it can work on more than one level. And maybe Rich didn't fully express his reasonings for chosing that title, and gave only a partial answer.

But then we get into Authorial Intent vs Death of the Author territory. And no one wants that 15 page discussion, do they? :smalltongue:

[Stabbey]

Even if it's not funny, or punny, and even though it's a direct reference to the three empires, I like Blood, Sweat, and Tears the best. It fits the themes in the book perfectly.

The blood ties between Elan and Haley and their parents, the Empire of Blood, the vampire attacks.

Sweat because the desert is hot, because people are working hard or are nervous about various things... (okay this one is a bit weak)

Tears for many things - Haley and Elan trying to deal with their parents, the resistance being crushed, Tsukiko dying at the hands of the wights she loved, and Durkon's death.

In just four words that title ties it all together and says so much more.

[Kaurne]

Themes of the plotline (so far) IMHO:

-Family/Blood (the relationships between characters, the Empire of Blood, and the Vampires)
-Lies/Deception (The lies both Haley's and Elan's parents have told them, Girards method for defending the gate, and the secrets the Order has kept from each other and the reader*)
-Sand/Time (The desert for the first, but 'time' has also been an increasing feature of the plotline. Belhars time is almost up, There's a race against time for the Order to reach the Gate, prompted by the short time they had until Xykon retrieved his phylactery... and the knowledge that, with only two gates left, the endgame is fast approaching)
-Despair/Tears (The parties despair at the death of Durkon, Tsukikos despair at being betrayed [a minor one, but still], Haley's and Elan's despair at realising that they are completely estranged from, and now opposed to, their fathers; that they have had to give up on their blood [another one] relatives to be with their surrogate family in the Order.

* This admittedly hasn't paid off yet, but I have a feeling it will do. Elan hasn't offered any details about his plan to defeat his father, and deliberately keeps it from the reader and from Roy. While the former is, according to storytelling conventions, a good way to ensure success, the Giant may subvert this; possibly by having it go wrong because Elan kept it from Roy.

At the same time, Vaarsuvius not coming forward to the Order about his/her debt and how he/she caused Familicide may still have grave consequences, particularly if the Fiends get control for the time he/she owes as suggested.

I might have missed a couple, but this strikes me as the main four. With this, Blood, Sweat and Tears is looking like the best solution, because it ties everything together.

In fact, there are two extra things that support this. One is that Sweat and toil are soimewhat appropriate here. This book not only involves the Order literally sweating in the heat, but also forcing them to work harder than ever before; from Roys dragged-out brawl with Thog, to Vaarsuvius's fight with Zz'Dtri, to Durkons desperate tussle with Malack, to the Guild overall in their two confrontations on and in the ziggurat against a team that has them beaten in terms of raw power, while one of their strongest members is missing. The most recent strip (881) shows how Roy is almost breaking under the strain.

The other [this is probably me reading too much into it] is the fact the title links in to the historical ciscumstances of that speech. When Churchill gave that speech, the Fall of France was just beginning; the Allies were about to lose one of their main members to the enemy, and be forced into a desperate retreat at Dunkirk, after a significant period where, although the enemy had managed to gain victories, it has inflicted no significant defeats on the allies, and one of its main successes (the defeat of Norway) damaged it a great deal, while its opening move resulted in (unexpectedly) a war starting that it did not intend (The invasion of Poland)

Lets compare that to the Order's history. Xykons invitation of the Order to the Gate resulted in the first long term opposition to his plans to seize the gates; the analogy isn't perfect, because the German victory in Poland was more significant than what Xykon got, but still.

Then, in the battle for Azure City, we see Xykon massacre the forces defending the gate, easily destroy 'one of the strongest bastions of good on the plane' and kill his most persist foe (Roy) similar to how Hitler to Norway despite French and British opposition, and force a leadership crisis in Britain. Despite this, the action brought Xykon no major long term advantage (he didn't get the gate) and he couldn't keep his momentum up; the Order regrouped, if not stronger than ever then at least more determined, and under the leadership of a wiser Roy. The result of the whole mess with Gobbotopia and the phylactery has cost Xykon one of his trump cards; phylactery regeneration in a safe area.

Which brings us to the Fall of France, which is the point we are at now in the story. The Allies went from a position of (apparent) strength to one of apparently near defeat very quickly. They lost one of their key members while their enemies waxed in power, and things looked hopeless.The best they could do was a hasty evacuation.

Let's look at the Order. One member is incapacitated; one has been turned to the side of the enemy, and one is likely to die soon. At least one member of the Order, is, I think, unlikely to remain by the end of the arc, and it may well be Durkon, who is perhaps the solid core around which the Order is built.

At the same time, prospects for defending the gate don't look good, especially against both the Linear Guild and Team Evil. The Order's best chance is, as many have said, perhaps to blow this gate and make a run for the next; while it may not be as crushing a defeat as they could suffer, it certainly isn't a victory.

This links in with how Churchill famously said, after Dunkirk, that 'we must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations.' The Order isn't looking at victory any more; its looking to deny any significant victory to its opponents, because there can be no success now.

The Order may be facing its Dunkirk moment, which makes the 'Blood, Sweat and Tears' title even more appropriate. 'Through my Fathers Lies' is second by quite a way, and 'Sands of the Fathers' an even more distant third.

Now I know that I'm overanalysing with the comparisons to the Second World War, and that previous book titles haven't had that much depth (although they certainly have had some depth). But the book does seem, to me, to be getting much more serious, much darker in tone and more... not adult, but perhaps deeper.

The stakes are high, time is running short, the Order has faced its toughest battles, lost some of its members in various ways and is coming apart at the seams, and its enemies both outnumber them and drastically outgun them, even as fallout from the Order's own actions has removed what chances they had of gaining new allies.

What better way to illustrate this than with a title that is not a pun, is multi-layered in references to the material, and is also quite dark? The title 'Blood, Sweat and Tears' fits the book perfectly.

Of course, now that we've all decided that, Rich probably won't use it :smalltongue:

But that's just my (admittedly rather long) thoughts. I think too much anyway.

[Ron Miel]

Just Deserts
The Guilt Trip
Hot Enough For Dune.
Looking For Girard In All The Wrong Places
The Search For Draketooth.

[Gift Jeraff]

I could see a blood-related title being saved for a Nale/Tarquin prequel. Such a book would still have strong family and vampire themes, and Nale's rebellion occured after the transition from Lord Tyrinar the Bloody to the Empress of Blood. Plus a play on bloodline would double as a reference to the Linear Guild.

[Porthos]

I could see a blood-related title being saved for a Nale/Tarquin prequel. Such a book would still have strong family and vampire themes, and Nale's rebellion occured after the transition from Lord Tyrinar the Bloody to the Empress of Blood. Plus a play on bloodline would double as a reference to the Linear Guild.

If there is ever a Linear Guild/Team Tarquin prequel book, I still think it should be called A Brief History of Crime. It's just too great of a title not to be used, IMO.

Sure, that was the title people proposed before Tarquin entered the picture. But I think it still fits.

[Gift Jeraff]

If there is ever a Linear Guild/Team Tarquin prequel book, I still think it should be called A Brief History of Crime. It's just too great of a title not to be used, IMO.

Sure, that was the title people proposed before Tarquin entered the picture. But I think it still fits.

Heh, that is a good title. And I'd say it fits even more now that we know Nale's backstory specifically involves conspiracy and treason, and not just leaving home when he got old enough.

That also reminds me of the "Sands of Crime" title I've seen suggested for Book 5, though that was well before the blood themes became even more prevalent with the Draketooth Clan and vampirism.

[Porthos]

Heh, that is a good title. And I'd say it fits even more now that we know Nale's backstory specifically involves conspiracy and treason, and not just leaving home when he got old enough.

I can't claim credit for it, sadly.

What I can claim credit for though, is getting fairly close to predicting what the cover of Book Four would look like. I was off on a coulple of things, but I felt it was close enough. :smallsmile:

[Rogar Demonblud]

Lays of Ancient Gnome?

(There's not actually a gnome in here prominently, (unless Belkar gets vamped and it's revealed that all gnomes are actually just vampire halflings)) but Lays of Ancient Rome contains the poem Horatius, which begins

Lars Porsena of Clusium
By the Nine Gods he swore
That the great house of Tarquin
Should suffer wrong no more.

Macauley is rolling in his grave.

The line is, "Lars Porsena of Clusium, by the SEVEN Gods he swore". Rich in sibilants, and one of the better opening lines I've ever read.

[quasit]

Why not "Simpathy for the evil"? Looking at Belkar's character development, Tarquin juggling with his villany and family ties, Durkon's vampirehood and stuff seems fit :smalltongue: