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scurv
2013-03-19, 08:05 PM
OhhhhhKEY yea ahem.

So in our group we are drawing up new chars (One each this time) And Well two of the players when building took faults like Powerful enemy and hunted and Branded and things like that. Well those two seem to be upset that I decided to use that as a hook. The rest of the party thinks it has potential and is looking forward to it (Even though they are in the same slave galley) But umm yea, How Do i respond to this diplomatically? I kinda like the players even though they are in their early 20's and always a source of strife. I mean I accept that they are still in that age and I do what I can not to get to upset at the attitude.

And considering the party wanted to play chaotic neutral pirates I think it is a good setup for them to get a ship I mean yea there is the whole starting out in chains in the hold of a slave galley on their way to be sold but all they got to do is take the ship after they get out of their chains and that one is going to be done by dm fiat if need be, Although I think they should be able to roll it.

anacalgion
2013-03-19, 08:08 PM
Pretty sure you're right here. If they're going to take something that gives them an enemy, they should be looking for that enemy around every corner, not surprised when it shows up. You got pitched an underhand throw, you have every right to swing at it. Love the pirate bit too; always wanted to try something like that myself.

Grinner
2013-03-19, 08:11 PM
So...they're upset that their characters' faults are actual disadvantages?

Umm...Tell them "You don't get something for nothing." and offer them a chance to take those faults off their sheets along with whatever benefits they got from them.

Honestly, it sounds like they're just powergaming. Poorly, at that. :smallsigh:

Kaervaslol
2013-03-19, 08:13 PM
Tell them to stop acting like children, and that they have to deal with the consequences of their choices.

ArcturusV
2013-03-19, 08:13 PM
So.... Let me cut down to the core here. The situation is as thus:

Two players optionally took flaws which have logical IC consequences. Presumably for the system you are playing, this has some concrete, definite benefits. Usually mechanical based on my experiences with DnD, World of Darkness, Anima: Beyond Fantasy, etc.

And then you chose to actually make those IC consequences something they have to deal with.

And now your players are complaining because they are no longer getting Something for Nothing, but actually have to deal with the Flaw?

Except the people who didn't take the flaw are fine with it, and are looking forward to the plot hook. Thus they cannot even argue that the "DM is derailing the campaign to pick on me!"?

I don't really see them having a leg to stand on. The simple point to mention is "Hey... you picked these flaws. You knew what the flaws were. You had no problem at all gaining the compensation for your flaw. You gotta deal with the mess."

scurv
2013-03-19, 08:36 PM
@ ArcturusV
Basically yes.

Personally I think powerful enemy could very well be the empire that enslaved your people And that can get you branded and hunted quite quickly.

I just got no idea how to deal with this level of self entitlement. Personally when i take a fault like powerful enemy I WANT the dm to use it! I mean seriously How much fun could you have staying a step ahead of the Mafia/FBI Or pulling a Spartacus? Or dodging ninja's like in the jackychan animated adventures? That is the type of stuff you talk about years later. I can not remember half of my powerbuilds. But I will never forget my revenge bent assassin who had an emperor has her "Powerful Foe" I mean yea it ended poorly for her, But the party still won the last encounter and Years later we still talk about that!

ArcturusV
2013-03-19, 08:48 PM
It's a mindset I had to deal with a lot when I was playing the old World of Darkness games, particularly werewolf. I'd get someone who wanted a 10 point flaw (And thus getting quite a bit of power) for something like "Hatred: Politicians". Knowing that A) They'd never run into one, most likely. And B) They could just murder the politician and be within the bounds of their flaw, and since Werewolf was a game played in the shadowy underworld of society anyway, wasn't going to impact them.

And if I pointed out "You know, what's a pack leader, other than a Politician of a different body?" and told them they'd hate their pack leader? Oooooh. So much dissent.

It's because they define their character in different terms. Just like you (Or I) might talk about the Emperor battle. They are the sort of people who go, "Man, you remember that time my first level character in DnD had a +18 to hit, and 12 different feats?"

Because that's the source of joy they get out of it.

Now, the thing is, with something like a Powerful Enemy, using their flaw doesn't actually cripple the character. Unless their character was planning on being famous (And thus easy to track down). It's purely IC. It has no mechanical penalty against them. So they should really man up.

I think the fear is, because they are of the Optimizer Mindset, they are proscribing THEIR actions to other people even if it wasn't true. Now, if it was them, and someone else had a powerful enemy that would be going out to kill the group at will? You can be almost certain that they'd be saying "I should just slit the guy's throat in his sleep, take his stuff, and then we wouldn't have a powerfl enemy and I'd have more stuff!"

So they might be afraid that something like that would happen.

scurv
2013-03-19, 08:56 PM
Well on the practical side. If they wanted to skate out of that for free It would be a simple feat of taking the ship and saying "We sail along the coast for a year so Meh stuff it DM" But What I can not understand is. They want to play pirates. Pirates tend to attract a sort of fame and attention of powerful political and financial bodies I mean yea they might get a good 3 year run before they are tracked down But loot needs fenced, Crews need to eat,drink and talk, And quite frankly missing ships tend to leave their own clues about. Even if it is nothing more then knowing that the barbary coast is a bad place for merchant ships to go Cause they never make the next port.

MickJay
2013-03-19, 09:22 PM
When I took a Hunted flaw in oWoD: Vampire, the ST decided my character pissed off a Colombian drug cartel leader by killing his father (retired from the 'family business' and trying to repent for the life of crime by becoming a priest). After the first truckload of armed gangsters (unaware that they're dealing with something supernatural) got killed off by the pack, the next manifestation of the flaw was to be a powerful Hunter, hired by the same cartel leader - unfortunately, the campaign went on hiatus before he made an appearance. The point I'm trying to make, I think, is similar to what others said. Taking a flaw like this is 1. a great plot hook 2. source of constant 'excitement' for the group, never sure where an unexpected enemy may appear 3. something that should be used by the ST to the fullest. Make sure to keep using it until the player 'buys it off' somehow, or makes a point of resolving the whole situation. If you decided to make it part of the plot that they're being chased, the players could, perhaps, complain about it (if they expected a different type of game). If they actually chose to be hunted, but are now no longer happy about it, I'd just use it for a large story arc, explain what I'm doing, and be done with it that way.

Rhynn
2013-03-19, 09:29 PM
Well those two seem to be upset that I decided to use that as a hook. [...] But umm yea, How Do i respond to this diplomatically?

"Okay. Now, just remove the bonus [points/whatevers] you got in exchange for them..."

Generally, though, you should be working out the details for these sort of things with the players of the characters in question. (Unless the disadvantage explicitly suggests otherwise, like amnesia, etc.)

scurv
2013-03-19, 09:48 PM
House rule, Fill in the background or Its the DM's choice. Heck I even asked them about it when they handed me their sheets and one of them laughed and said he "just took it for points" The 15 cp they got from those flaws is 5 levels worth of skills. And quite frankly I got enough to do with researching naval ship building history, researching real world history to use as "inspiration" Developing half a dozen empires, Making maps and designing towns, city's, palaces. Researching terms and tactics of naval warfare To handhold someone though understanding what a powerful enemy is.

Although at this point I am going to call it that he needs to play and deal with what he made. I do not like setting precedent for this type of retcon And quite frankly for the type of campaign they requested the party would have those faults in about 5 sessions anyway

<edit> I just do not know how to deal with that level of self entitlement and i seriously need help with that please.

Friv
2013-03-19, 10:00 PM
Tell him to grow up or get out?

There's a bit of a mantra I like to repeat: "Not gaming is better than awful gaming".

TBH, I think you missed the boat, so to speak, when you let them give you undefined flaws in the first place. As soon as that happened, I would have handed the sheet back and started working on what the person's enemy is with them.

ArcturusV
2013-03-19, 10:04 PM
Well, if you're of the inclination, you can do this (And I have to one guy who I wanted to do this to anyway):

"You and me will fight for it. First guy to cry out in pain has to accept the other's point of view."

Then before they even say "Okay" I slap them so they say Ow.

"Okay, now do what I say."

Although that is LITERALLY heavy handed. But you really can't deal with Entitlement issues without being heavy handed in some fashion. Part of it necessitates you pointing out that they aren't actually entitled to anything. Which means shattering delusions. Which usually involves at least a metaphysical rock thrown through their window.

valadil
2013-03-19, 10:14 PM
two of the players when building took faults like Powerful enemy and hunted and Branded and things like that. Well those two seem to be upset that I decided to use that as a hook.

Your players are idiots. I take flaws like that precisely because I want my character to be central to a couple plot hooks.

Don't hold back on the powerful enemies. Hold back the information. The players don't have to know it was their disadvantage that brought that hook onto the players. There's going to be a villain in the game working against the players regardless.

Also, the players may whine now. But they'll feel awesome when they defeat their own personal nemesis.

Nightgaun7
2013-03-19, 10:16 PM
I think they might be resentful of the starting out in chains part.

I'm also not sure what being 20-29 has to do with it. I'm 23 and when I put a character flaw on my sheet I expect it will be used.

dps
2013-03-19, 11:46 PM
Frankly, I see little reason to be diplomatic with these morons. But, then there's a reason that 99% of my social interaction these days is over the internet.

Slipperychicken
2013-03-20, 12:41 AM
Can you give me more specifics on the manner in which you used those flaws, and their reaction to it? It may be a different problem than it appears.

Cerlis
2013-03-20, 01:16 AM
you deal with it by talking to em. Make sure that you go about it with the intent of making the game better and helping them to have fun. (this way your voice will be sincere and you dont have to fake being friendly).

Essentially treat it as if you are explaining the rules of the game to a new player (because that IS basically what you are doing). I see this as no different than someone who wants to have a really strong character , but didnt roll any stat high enough to have more than moderate strength. There are rules and limitations and the point of weaknesses and strengths is to provide challenges for the players to overcome.

tell them what you said about most pirates being famous, and being hunted by the law. Its possible they just wanted to be nameless bandits, not famous blackbeards. The idea is to work with them but make sure you are still grounded in your rules. Those flaws they took represent extra challenges their character has had to face and deal with, thus making their characters more powerful. If they want to be a bit more green(and thus not have many or any enemies) then naturally they will be less powerful and thus no flaws.

I doubt you are actually going to have these people whining "Whyyyyyyyyyyyy!" even if maybe they are disappointed. I'd also remind them that your not going to be a total badass when you start out, the point is to grow into it.

W3bDragon
2013-03-20, 02:17 AM
<edit> I just do not know how to deal with that level of self entitlement and i seriously need help with that please.

To deal with it in a diplomatic fashion, I would proceed thusly:

"Okay guys, it seems we have a misunderstanding. Some of the players thought that taking the faults (Hunted) or (powerful enemy) etc had no real effect in game, and if it did, it would get them a one-legged half dead kobold as an enemy. I'm afraid that's not the case. Though I am happy that some of you took these faults, as they add some nice plot hooks for me to work with, I have plenty of plot hooks and am not dependent on these faults to run my game. If you guys prefer, you can remove these faults and the associated bonuses, and we'll forget about the whole thing. Also, going forward, we'll be banning these faults, since you guys don't seem to like them."

Done and dusted.

Yes, I understand that retconning like that is not good for the game, but in this case, its the lesser of two evils. They don't want to be forced to deal with the downside of their selected faults, and you don't want to downplay them. Since its just at the start of the campaign, just dump the faults, ban them if needed, and move on.

Lorsa
2013-03-20, 06:40 AM
The biggest problem with those kind of flaws is that while the benefits for said flaw are only granted to one player, the disadvantages are felt by everyone in the group. When your Powerful Enemy comes knocking on your door to ruin your life, you won't be alone. Your friends (the other players' characters) will be there too. They will be expected to help you out with your problem. Thus your flaw affects everyone in the group yet you are the only one getting a benefit.

Does that seem fair to you? (said with the voice of Jubal Early, the bounty hunter from the Firefly episode Objects in Space)

MukkTB
2013-03-20, 06:51 AM
If you guys prefer, you can remove these faults and the associated bonuses, and we'll forget about the whole thing.

Most reasonable possibility. Even more amusing is if the player who liked the the plot hook asked to take the flaw.

mjlush
2013-03-20, 07:01 AM
OhhhhhKEY yea ahem.

So in our group we are drawing up new chars (One each this time) And Well two of the players when building took faults like Powerful enemy and hunted and Branded and things like that.


I've long been of the opinion that most (all?) disadvantage systems are strangely flawed.

To see what I mean first you need to think of a RPG and a Role Playing Game and the object of that game is to spend the most time in the spotlight (ie the more time you spend interacting with the GM and achieving things for good or ill the better time your have).

Now consider hunted, weirdness magnet, notorious and the like. Not only does the player get a stronger character but the GM has to dedicate game time (aka spotlight time) to resolve these traits

Now consider shy, mute, depressive, cowardice and the like. These give the player a stronger character who is less likely to get involved in the plot ie less spotlight time and less fun for the player.

Edit: Just seen Lorsa's comment about how "The biggest problem with those kind of flaws is that while the benefits for said flaw are only granted to one player, the disadvantages are felt by everyone in the group." Orthogonal to what I'm getting at, but a really good point there!

scurv
2013-03-20, 07:18 AM
The two players in question are early 20's I am thinking 23 at the oldest and Not quite from the school of hard knocks ether.

Well here is my take on it The group wants to play pirates, But they don't quite want to be an Evil group So that Means there needs to be some form of moral justifier for their actions. So Meh evil empire bent on conquest. As for starting them out in the hold of a ship in chains Well They are going to need a ship somehow and unless they truly suck at life They will take it with enough faceless npc crew to man it.

But between the self entitlement, And I think I am just going to make them cope with it or leave the party on their own. (I had a talk with my sister who has her own issues with DMing those two brats) But what I do not get is they choose two faults they would get anyway in this type of campaign and they are upset about it. I mean seriously how long can pirates function with out being noticed. Unless they go fully chaotic evil and never leave survivors and kill all women and children, And add to that they would need to never spend their loot in the known world to remain in obscurity

But as for how the flaws was used for those two, In their case their nation state was conquered by the "evil" empire and they are racially identifiable as people from that stock. As I said Blank background and I was left with the impression that they did not wish to be bothered by me in filling it out.

My self personally I want to see what the group can take in this setting I got two adults and heck my 12 year old niece who are looking forward to seeing how long they can last. And as much as I hate to say it the 12 year old deal can with unfairness better then people who are quite literally twice her age She understands the concept of adapt and overcome and dealing with the hand she is dealt.

I mean from my viewpoint they got a ship, Granted it will take a session to make it theirs, That is small and fast. Has the perk of less viability over the horizon due to a shorter mast then many of the ships. They got people explicitly they can prey on with out to much danger of crossing the chaotic evil line And quite frankly If those two can stop with the emo I can have time enough to set up ports for them to fence their ill gotten gains in and lay out some baited adventure hooks. Right now the world is shaping to be adnd 2nd edition that is dropped on a European colonial expansion backdrop. So basically they can align with the British and be hated by the Spanish (Names picked semi at random to illustrate a point, I tend to use history as an inspiration for my campaigns, but it is never in those actual historic settings)

<edit> I tend to, and in our group we all tend to depending on who is DMing award the points of those flaws when they are earned ICLY. Fair is fair. Although Sometimes the points are in skills that are earned in RP Like seamanship, navigation and the like.

Jay R
2013-03-20, 07:58 AM
Are they upset that you are using it as a plot hook, or are they upset that they started in chains?

I can understand a player who thought having an enemy meant somebody would want to put them in chains, but nonetheless expected that the enemy would have to defeat them to do so.

They asked to be hunted, but the hunt is already over, and they lost - without getting to play it.

I suspect that this is one source of the problem. The main source, of course, is that they don't realize that what you're really doing is giving them a ship.

And by the way, this isn't costing them anything. There's going to be a plot hook. This didn't add to the threat level; it merely determined who the threat would be.

----------------

Finally, I don't recommend doing this, but it's amusing to think about:

DM: OK, you're in the hold of a slave ship run by your Powerful Enemy and your Hunted -
Players: Unfair! We didn't want you to actually use those as plot hooks.
DM: No problem. OK, take those flaws off your sheets, lose the skill points, and I won't use your Enemies as plot hooks. [Character sheets adjusted.] All fixed? Let's start over. You're in the hold of a slave ship run by some complete strangers...

Lorsa
2013-03-20, 09:11 AM
The problem with that Jay, is that if using flaws as a plot hook to start the entire scenario then it isn't a flaw anymore, it's built into the campaign. Either everyone should get the extra candy for having it actually written on the sheet or none should.

And yes, mjlush, you are also right in a way, depending on how it's being played out. Some 'disadvantages' ends up stealing the focus of the game far too much in favor of someone who already have a better character.

While flaw systems are fun in theory, they often don't really play out in practice.

IF you do allow flaws though, and the players select them then you should act on them and that's that. You can't argue if your Enemy shows up to make trouble if you chose to have that Enemy yourself! I would still strongly suggest making sure everyone in the group has the same enemy though as that's how it's going to play out.

Slipperychicken
2013-03-20, 10:22 AM
The problem with that Jay, is that if using flaws as a plot hook to start the entire scenario then it isn't a flaw anymore, it's built into the campaign. Either everyone should get the extra candy for having it actually written on the sheet or none should.


Whenever I see those kinds of "stronger enemy" flaws, I assume it means the enemy is a) disproportionately strong compared to other threats, b) focus-fires that specific PC in combat, and c) is particularly ruthless (where the DM might have other monsters might tactically hold back for fairness' sake).

scurv
2013-03-20, 10:38 AM
Hunt over? naw Three members of the party will be able to blend in on the mainland. But two people the ones that choose those faults will not due to racial markings. But if we can get past the next session they will have the ship they want and can loot plunder and be hunted to their hearts content.

My issue is I am trying to deal with two young adults who are crying about having to actually contend with the flaws they choose and who think that I can somehow read their minds. Every other DM I have ever found has more or less the same rules. More dialogue=more of what you want and less DM making it up

Not that it is a bad thing to occasionally see what the DM can surprise you with. I have had fun being on the receiving end of that and having to make due somehow.

But somehow the rest of the party, my neice included Kinda figured out that in this campaign that they would be on the 10 most wanted, Ya know pirates and all that. And historically we tend to hand out the CP's when you end up with a fault such as that, well they tend to be earned in the course of rp. These players knowing that opted not to get any seamanship/navagation skills what so ever banking on that :smallannoyed:

I just got no idea how to deal with this attitude of self entitlement This campaign they are getting butthurt over having to contend with flaws they picked,That was basicly inline with the plot of the campaign anyway.
In my sisters one of them is upset that his Minotaur receives a reaction penalty. And in the earlier campaign I had The other one was upset that I would not let him have full rogue skills for disarming traps with his 13 dex, 9 int and 10 wisdom warrior. And I can not even form into sentences the drama that has erupted out of my brother in laws campaign

Jornophelanthas
2013-03-20, 11:06 AM
I just got no idea how to deal with this attitude of self entitlement

I think this is the main question, and the answers so far do not address it.

What matters is not so much WHAT you say to them, but HOW you say it. Speak calmly and in a neutral tone. Let them know that you want to understand what they are upset about (even if you already believe you do) and listen to their complaints. Tell them what your ruling is going to be, and give your reasoning behind it, so that they can understand where you are coming from, and that none of it is meant to pick on them. Make sure that they understand that your job is to make sure that EVERYONE (including the other players AND yourself) is having a good time - not just them - and that you have to tie everything together.

Speak from a position of authority; you are the DM, after all. Do not allow them to interrupt you while you are speaking, and do not interrupt them while they are speaking (except if they are speaking out of turn). Mind your posture and body language: don't slouch, don't bow your head, don't avoid eye contact with them, as those are all signs of subservience. If you present yourself as subservient, they will treat you as such. Appear to be confident, even if you're not. Refuse to be treated in that way by refusing to get drawn into a discussion if they try that approach. (If this happens, ask questions instead, see above.)

The entire goal of all this is that if they respect your authority at the gaming table, they will be more likely to accept your rulings, buy into your setting and become involved in your plot. And a lot of this is subconscious, and need never be spoken out loud.

This some rudimentary leadership advice. I am not particularly good at this, but perhaps others can supplement these pieces of advice with their own insights.

Rhynn
2013-03-20, 01:32 PM
The entire goal of all this is that if they respect your authority at the gaming table, they will be more likely to accept your rulings, buy into your setting and become involved in your plot. And a lot of this is subconscious, and need never be spoken out loud.

This is a really specific authoritarian style of GMing that I'd personally never adapt with adults. (Even childish ones.) I much prefer playing as equals, just with defined and different roles in the game.

tensai_oni
2013-03-20, 02:04 PM
I just got no idea how to deal with this attitude of self entitlement

Tell them to get out. No buts, no diplomacy. The second they refused to give you their character sheets and one of them laughed in your face, the line has been crossed. They proved not to be just bad players, but bad friends in general. And everything else you said in this thread only further confirms it.

Don't be rude or angry. Just tell them they are not welcome to play with you anymore.

Sith_Happens
2013-03-20, 05:30 PM
Does that seem fair to you? (said with the voice of the above-level challenge that the whole crew of the Serenity had to deal with just because River took the Hunted flaw)

Fixed to better illustrate your point.:smalltongue:

Jornophelanthas
2013-03-20, 07:06 PM
This is a really specific authoritarian style of GMing that I'd personally never adapt with adults. (Even childish ones.) I much prefer playing as equals, just with defined and different roles in the game.
The problem here is that these two players apparently do not buy into these defined roles, as they refuse to accept the negative consequences of their self-chosen flaws, even if they readily (or greedily) accept the positive consequences.
(But just to make it clear, I do NOT advocate condescension. What I advocate is leadership behaviour that makes the other party feel respected and listened to, but that also strongly encourages them to reciprocate this attitude, which effectively ends any rants and tantrums. This is a standard reasoning technique used by customer service employees to address angry customers.)

However, the situation you describe is certainly the ideal situation and what the DM wants to achieve. I am just trying to come up with ways to get there. If you can present a different path to get there, feel free to do so. I am no great expert on leadership, and I just present a first attempt to tackle the question of how to approach these players.

scurv
2013-03-22, 08:49 PM
Well, I have Tomorrows encounter planed for the party plus a few other things to keep them on their toes (I won't go in to to many details my niece follows the comic)

Tomorrow we will have a discussion before we start along of the few of the topics that was brought up here. Basically it will be a grow up or get out discussion. Now personally I simply do not have the mental framework to understand that level of self-entitlement I have lived my life with the mentality of respect the uniform/position/office if not the person And by and large it has served me well. And I do admit some fault in this I tend to be somewhat laissez-faire with leadership provided people stay with in the lines and make reasonable effort to keep it fair and believable So in that I most likely let this get out of hand when it could of been checked some time ago.

Don't get me wrong If you want something for your char, We can almost always work something out. Give me a plot hook, and i'll give you your shinny. If you can justify to me why you think your char should be able to do something and it is somewhat believable, I'll let you roll (Granted maybe with a penalty, but meh) And counter to this, IF the players wish to walk in to certain death, Then death they shall have.( I do tend to make sure the players are well aware of what is about to happen in this situation) And I think that is what has been causing the issues with the the younger two, They assume the earlier traits means our campaigns are the types with seatbelts and airbags so that the Chars never truly get hurt.

As a side note, I find it depressing that I consider my 12 year old niece as a mature and responsible adult when i compare her to some of the behavior I been watching from our two younger players.

The Glyphstone
2013-03-22, 09:10 PM
Is she actually mature and responsible objectively, or just by comparison? Kid can surprise you sometimes.

This is mostly off-topic, but 'less mature than a 12-year old' can be along a wide spectrum.

scurv
2013-03-22, 09:26 PM
She has a better sense of responsibility then most people I know. She is quite respectful and seldom reckless. She is honest and understands that you reap what you sow. And she has this understanding that other people have the same rights and wants that she does. But her mother and father also came from the school of hard knocks So that helps somewhat

Jay R
2013-03-23, 09:35 AM
The problem with that Jay, is that if using flaws as a plot hook to start the entire scenario then it isn't a flaw anymore, it's built into the campaign. Either everyone should get the extra candy for having it actually written on the sheet or none should.

1. If the flaw is a Hunted or an Enemy, and it doesn't ever become a plot hook, then it isn't a flaw anymore, it's empty words on a sheet of paper.

2. Each PC gets the extra candy written into their own backstory. If they choose to share, fine. But it's their choice.

3. If you travel together, then anything hunting one of you is hunting you all. That's just basic common sense. My elven mage/thief is traveling with a paladin, and gets attacked by evil priests. The paladin is traveling with an elf, and gets attacked by orcs.

4. Each person's backstory should be built into the campaign, and affect the game eventually. Somebody's has to be first, that's all.

5. This whole thing was intended to provide an asset. The players said they wanted to be pirates, so they started on a ship they have every good reason to take over.

scurv
2013-03-23, 09:12 PM
I think this is the shortest starter session I have ever done, Thankfully my sister opted to have a talk with them in regards to her campaign in motherly tones as she is wont to do (Although there is enough cross over in issues that It was of benefit to the task at hand) But it was two hours and quite a bit of fun...even though someone dropped the ball slightly and got to test the neg 10 rule.

But when one plays with the perks and flaws in my campaign, They all will effect how the char developed and they will all affect the party. If someone opts to pick shy as a trait then I expect them to RP it and I may very well assign them a will save inorder to do things such as reach out and talk to a stranger. But that is still 5 points if i recall for our system so one can get some decent skills with that. And it could very well be a fun char to play who gets plenty of spot light.

Although right now, If anyone knows any systems of ship based combat that includes the use of cannons and grapeshot please let me know I have something brewed but I have never play tested it much. Heck I think i reversed engineered it from sid meier's pirates like a decade ago.

But yea, I think I am going to spend more time then i like keeping a few attitude traits in check. Its a waste of time but that is life i guess. Although I still do not see how people think they can play pirates who do not get noticed!

Lord Torath
2013-03-23, 11:30 PM
Spelljammer has rules for combat with cannons and grapeshot (catapults loaded with "stoneshot"). Also ballistae, Greek Fire Projectors and various gnomish weapons. First thing that jumps into my mind.

I'm certain there are better systems out there, but the weapon mechanics might work well enough for naval battles.

If you come up with something good, let me know. My PC's will be journeying to the Isle of Dread shortly, and they may have to repel pirates...

scurv
2013-03-24, 07:01 AM
I am assigning the sails and the ship to be sensitive to diffrent types of damage.

Grape shot will damage sails and people Most effectively, But will do marginal damage to wood, Although like a shotgun grapeshot will have a wide spread. Although i am trying to come up with a system lets them hit the general Large target, but not called shots on small targets

Although if they use a standard cannon ball, Yes it can yield high damage to a single target, But with it comes a high risk of sinking the ship and loot (Although that is sometimes a good idea even for pirates)

I am trying to play test something out now that will have sufficient aspects of fairness and verisimilitude to pass. Although in brief I think It will be mapped to an octagon map, And will be done with assigning a movement rate and a number of times a ship can change course in the said amount of time in the movement rate and working that at a ratio that is twice the lowest common denominator.

Cannons can fire after their reload time whenever they have a firing solution (Penalty applied for ship changing course at that time if it is,) Ideally I want to keep the hit rate at about 20% when ships are at max firing range and 80% when they are nearing the closest firing range. Although I still need to work out the die mods fully.

I am also trying to come out with a fleeing mechanism that I like as well And trying to come out with a mechanism for deciding how fast ships can turn and how tight the circle is. and how fast they can move in a full retreat.

Killer Angel
2013-03-24, 12:40 PM
The biggest problem with those kind of flaws is that while the benefits for said flaw are only granted to one player, the disadvantages are felt by everyone in the group. When your Powerful Enemy comes knocking on your door to ruin your life, you won't be alone. Your friends (the other players' characters) will be there too. They will be expected to help you out with your problem. Thus your flaw affects everyone in the group yet you are the only one getting a benefit.

Pretty much. In GURPS one of the player took as a single disadvantage "enemy - 80 pts". His character was stronger than ours, and the enemy, in the end, was hunting all of us.
I blame also the DM, but the result is the same.

mjlush
2013-03-24, 03:50 PM
Pretty much. In GURPS one of the player took as a single disadvantage "enemy - 80 pts". His character was stronger than ours, and the enemy, in the end, was hunting all of us.
I blame also the DM, but the result is the same.

The original Deadlands had an interesting disadvantage mechanic.. If a disadvantage came up on play the character got a 'character point' which was a good mechanic but you also got points for taking the disad in the first place... The concept could be modified so there is no points gained for taking disadvantage but everyone who is disadvantaged by it gets a cp it it comes up in play.

ArcturusV
2013-03-24, 04:37 PM
Similarly to what Traits did in the Final Fantasy RPG, which I liked.

Basically you'd have various traits like being beholden to another authority, or a member of a secret tribe, etc. Which would give you benefits in two categories: Spontaneous, where you could do things like use your Beauty Key Trait to make a Smooth Talk skill check autopass. Or "Tied" where it was something like your guy with the Beauty Key Trait would have a jealous lover harassing the party (Or a friendly, smitten ally in town, etc) show up during the session. The thing is, with Tied uses, it had to be discussed at the table, everyone agree to use it during the game.

Bonuses cost you Key Points, Penalties gave you Key Points. It was an interesting system. You could have your benefits/flaws without one dominating the game. Nor did you take a low impact flaw to get high use skills, etc.

scurv
2013-03-24, 04:50 PM
Something to keep in mind is that even of a char chooses a powerful enemy that does not mean that it will hunt the party every time. I believe in erf world chapter one that lord hamster listed quite a few options that could be applied by said enemy. Powerful enemy does not even need to be one person. An empire can make quite an acceptable powerful enemy

As far as hunted goes. There are still options to be had. In this case the two who picked it although they are not quite hunted personally (Yet) Due to the racial traits they have they are hunted on those grounds. Well I would call it more like there is a significant portion of the world that if they go to that they may very well be captured or viewed as slaves of the party they are with.

As for CP's I tend to be fairly free with skills. Good roleplay tends to lead to skill development, provided the player is investing time and even faster if there is a chance that i can make them lose some hp's with some rolls (Hay I need my fun too) Trust me, If a pc is being instructed in mountain climbing and they take 7d6 from being themselves. I am fairly certain i can rule that they will not make that mistake again.

BRC
2013-03-24, 05:03 PM
In my opinion, "Hunted" or some similar flaw should come with some idea of WHO exactly is hunting them, as opposed to just "Somebody is after me, now gimme da points!".
In addition, such a flaw should manifest in ways that specifically target the character who took the flaw. If the one who took the flaw is a Werewolf, then the enemy shows up packing Silver. Or, if you get an extra 20 points because you're being hunted by a ruthless King of Thieves, I expect you to spend roughly 20 points boosting your Perception and keeping an eye out for knives in the shadows.