Battle Sorcerer VS Armored Mage Fighter and Sorcerer

[Yogibear41]

Which is better? going strait Battle Sorcerer or taking armored mage fighter variant and levels of regular sorcerer?

Using DragonWrought Kobold as race if that changes anything.

[Coidzor]

Which is better? going strait Battle Sorcerer or taking armored mage fighter variant and levels of regular sorcerer?

Using DragonWrought Kobold as race if that changes anything.

You're better off as a straight-classed Battle Sorcerer 20 than as a Fighter 8/Sorcerer 12 with Armored Mage, but that's mostly because the second one gives you no ASF with 9th level spells but only 6th level spells to cast. Fighter 2/Sorcerer 18 is probably better than Battle Sorcerer 20, just as a caster.

Neither is a very desirable option, though if you're PrCing, then you use regular sorcerer and can probably find something better than sorcerer and armored mage doesn't give you anything really worthwhile except for from the perspective of playing from level 1.

[Chaosvii7]

Which is better? going strait Battle Sorcerer or taking armored mage fighter variant and levels of regular sorcerer?

Using DragonWrought Kobold as race if that changes anything.

For what you're looking for, Battle Sorcerer beats out the Armored Mage fighter.


This benefit applies only to spells of a level equal to or lower than your fighter class level + 1.

You'd have to feed the ACF with levels of Fighter, which will hamstring your spell powers.

Also, if you want to capitalize on the battle sorcerer, you could perhaps pick up Battle Caster (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/battle-caster--183/) and medium armor proficiency later on. Not necessary, but useful.

[Ellrin]

A better split for armored mage would be 6 levels of fighter and 14 levels of primary caster (gets you no ASF for 7th level spells in light armor with light shields and 7th level spells), or 1 level of fighter and 19 levels of primary caster (gets you no ASF for your first four or five levels of casting, by which point you should no longer really need armor).

That said, it's still a trap. Both options suck--with the first you'll be terrible at melee and a horribly backwards caster. With the second you're permanently slowing your casting (and thus versatility) behind single classed casters for an advantage that will be meaningless by 6th level.

If you want to go gish, there are much better builds than either battle sorcerer or armored mage/sorcerer. If you just want protection, use armor you can slip in and out of easily; hang back, drop a bunch of summons and battlefield control spells, and then slip on your chain shirt and run like the dickens. Or just suck up the ASF at early levels when you don't have enough spells per day to be rocking mage armor all the time.

Or rock mage armor all the time, anyway.

[Larkas]

Are you dead set on Sorcerer? Okay, then, let's see...

Warblade 1/ Sorcerer 5/ Jade Phoenix Mage 5/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3

But you'll want do things a little more complex than this...

Warb 1/ Sorc 5/ JPM 1/ SpSw 1/ AbjC 2/ JPM +1/ AbjC +2/ JPM +1/ AbjC +1/ ScEx 1/ JPM +1/ ScEx +2/ JPM +1

You'll end up with 9th level spells, 7th level maneuvers and BAB +16. Not bad at all, though you could do better by being a Wizard instead. You can also probably fit another PrC in place of one or two Sorcerer levels, but I couldn't think of anything. Anyways, good luck! :smallwink:

[Yogibear41]

Good build, but pretty sure My DM would frown at all that multi-classing lol

+ 1 for your mirran character :smallsmile:

Mirrodin was my first non-core set ahh the memories

Eager to see the return to new phyrexia and how the red phyrexians may break the mold and revolt one day, Urabrask ftw lol

[Gavinfoxx]

Battle Sorcerer is worse than Stalwart Sorcerer.

If you want a gish in a can, be a Duskblade, or a PF Magus. If you don't wanna multiclass and you want the arcane fighting type... those two are the ways to do it...

[Yogibear41]

What about 2 levels of Fighter without the AFC so I can qualify for Spell Sword, 4 levels of sorcerer, then 1 level of Spell Sword then 5 levels on Abjurant Champion, then go from there?

Kobold Fighter 2 AFC gives +2 to con in place of a fighter feat which seems decent.

[Sith_Happens]

Good build, but pretty sure My DM would frown at all that multi-classing lol

Would he also frown on undergoing the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) for a (mostly) free extra Sorcerer level? Because that would let you eat a Fighter level for PrC-qualification without falling behind on your casting.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Battle Sorcerer isn't nearly as bad as it gets credit for. It doesn't compare favorably to straight sorcerer, and maybe not even sorc builds that lose a CL, but it gives a good run to builds like sorcadins that trade 2 or more levels away (provided that they both go into Abjurant Champion anyway), and it's pretty clearly stronger than builds that lose more than that.

So between the two options here, battle sorcerer comes out ahead. But straight sorcerer can show them both up. Especially a sorcerer who shells out for a twilight mithral chain shirt and an aptitude weapon (or even one who learns the feat to make them, in case this sounds too reliant on a friendly DM's MagicMart).

[Coidzor]

Good build, but pretty sure My DM would frown at all that multi-classing lol

Gishing requires multi-classing and PrCing and mostly PrCing. If your DM doesn't understand that even after it is explained to him then you're not going to be able to play a satisfying gish.

[Greenish]

Gishing requires multi-classing and PrCing and mostly PrCing. If your DM doesn't understand that even after it is explained to him then you're not going to be able to play a satisfying gish.Unless you're satisfied with Duskblade or Magus.

[Essence_of_War]

What about 2 levels of Fighter without the AFC so I can qualify for Spell Sword, 4 levels of sorcerer, then 1 level of Spell Sword then 5 levels on Abjurant Champion, then go from there?

Kobold Fighter 2 AFC gives +2 to con in place of a fighter feat which seems decent.

So you're willing to go Melee 2/Sorc4/SpellSword1/AbjChamp5 but the JPM build had too much multi-classing? :smallamused:

The standard Sorcadin Gish is:
Paladin2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacredExorcist8

If you don't like Paladin, you could def use Hexblade or Crusader. Fighter works too I guess, but the others have SOME Cha synergy.

[Gurgeh]

The Battle Sorcerer trades away spells/day (something that they'll always want at every point in the game) for what - one point of BAB? It's not as if you'll be putting more than four levels into Sorcerer if you're going down the Gish road anyway, and you'd be much better off getting extra spells (especially high-level spells, where it's much harder to ease the loss with ability score bonuses) than a single lousy point of BAB. If you're going Sorcadin then you need two levels of Paladin anyway for Divine Grace, so it's not like Battle Sorcerer is getting you into PrCs earlier.

[Yogibear41]

Is the sacred exorcist in the build for any particular reason other than its full casting with average BAB?

Also don't suppose anyone knows away to get 2 levels of Paladin or something similar with a chaotic neutral alignment.

[Greenish]

Is the sacred exorcist in the build for any particular reason other than its full casting with average BAB?Not really, beyond Turn Undead for fueling various feats.


Also don't suppose anyone knows away to get 2 levels of Paladin or something similar with a chaotic neutral alignment.There were paladin variants corresponding to N/any non-N in one of the Dragon Magazines, though I forget which one.

[Edit]: Hexblade gets Cha to saves vs. spells and spell-likes, but it doesn't come with the armour proficiency required for spellsword.

[Essence_of_War]

Is the sacred exorcist in the build for any particular reason other than its full casting with average BAB?

Also don't suppose anyone knows away to get 2 levels of Paladin or something similar with a chaotic neutral alignment.

Turning to fuel devotion feats is actually quite good.

Crusader does a pretty reasonable Paladin stand-in and can be of any alignment. It's not quite divine grace, but it gets you at least Cha to cover your weak will saves. And it's way more fun to play at low levels.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you want to cast in light armor the best bet is Spell thief 1 / sorcerer 19 with the master spell thief feat. One level dip gives you 1d6 sneak attack and the ability to wear light armor and cast any arcane spells. You don't even loose a caster level.

[Snowbluff]

If you going with Time Stop as your 9th level spell, Swiftblade is an option as well. :smalltongue:

[Larkas]

Good build, but pretty sure My DM would frown at all that multi-classing lol

+ 1 for your mirran character :smallsmile:

Mirrodin was my first non-core set ahh the memories

Eager to see the return to new phyrexia and how the red phyrexians may break the mold and revolt one day, Urabrask ftw lol

Thanks, on both accounts! I have to go back and make a Darksteel template and put it in that thread, but I'll tell you, it's hard to think of Darksteel and not come up with something designed for epic levels... Oh, well. Some day.

And Mirrodin was pretty much my last non-core setting! :smallbiggrin: I started playing back in Unlimited, and by the time Mirrodin hit the shelves, I was about to start college. The time and money to dedicate to MtG got really thin by that time, and I dropped the hobby completely, save for a friendly match here and there. I actually picked it up again in Scars of Mirrodin. It was such a nice set... Alas, the championships got too difficult, either you got a CawBlade deck or you were toast. I went back to just friendly matches since then, but at least I could get a hold of some great new cards (Stoneforge Mystic (http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/20.html), I'm looking at you)!

On the build, however, it might be nice to know how much multiclassing is too much for you! :smallsmile: I gave a somewhat optimized build; another one could be the aforementioned Sorcadin. But if you want something simple and yet fun, you could do well with a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 20. It is far from optimized, specially since Sorcerers gain nothing by staying in their class, but it works, and is not terrible: it is undoubtedly weaker the a straight Sorcerer, but still a solid T2 (specially if you have access to Knowstones)! If you like simplicity, however, try getting the PF version of Sorcerer. If you need to explain it to the DM, just show both classes' table: the 3.5 only has abilities at 1st level, the PF has some goodies every, or every other level. Also explain to him that you want to be single-classed. :smallsmile:


Is the sacred exorcist in the build for any particular reason other than its full casting with average BAB?

Also don't suppose anyone knows away to get 2 levels of Paladin or something similar with a chaotic neutral alignment.

Sacred Exorcist is just a way to get full casting progression and better-than-Sorcerer's BAB. And yeah, it enable some nice things. :smallsmile:

If you can shift that to CG or CE, you could get either Paladin of Freedom or Paladin of Slaughter. At CN, you have DragMag's alternatives; #310, IIRC. You have to take a closer look at the class if you intend to use the last one, though. I remember that I once played an Avenger (CG Paladin from DragMag), and had to basically remake the spell list (it had some things missing, others at the wrong level, still others showing twice in the list at different levels). It's nothing complicated, but doesn't hurt to be done.


If you going with Time Stop as your 9th level spell, Swiftblade is an option as well. :smalltongue:

Eh, Swiftblade might work, but it has too many lost caster levels. It only works properly on a Wizard chassis.

[WhatBigTeeth]

The Battle Sorcerer trades away spells/day (something that they'll always want at every point in the game) for what - one point of BAB? It's not as if you'll be putting more than four levels into Sorcerer if you're going down the Gish road anyway, and you'd be much better off getting extra spells (especially high-level spells, where it's much harder to ease the loss with ability score bonuses) than a single lousy point of BAB. If you're going Sorcadin then you need two levels of Paladin anyway for Divine Grace, so it's not like Battle Sorcerer is getting you into PrCs earlier.
Used in a standard sorcerer build, you're not wrong, but the more practical use of BS is to replace the non-Sorc levels in a gish, like the Fighter 2 and Paladin 2 dips that have been advocated several times, including this post.

So what you're comparing is:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3
versus
Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion 3:

Both have +8 BA, armored casting in two flavors and the same features from abjurant champion.
The Sorcadin has higher saves and an extra level 1 spell known.
The Battle Sorcerer has more spells per day, a couple extra HP that we don't care about, probably an extra feat that would have gone to practiced spellcaster, and an extra level 5 spell known. Its feat selection is also a bit more free, with access to level 6 Arcane Strike and level 9 Minor Shapeshift.

The BS is getting considerably more than one extra point of BA, and isn't losing all that much compared to this alternative. At this level, the comparison isn't too unfavorable to a Sorcadin, and could even be more appealing, depending on the value placed on having Draconic Polymorph or Arcane Fusion two levels early.

What the BS is clearly losing out to is the third yet-unlisted competitor, Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 4, which has more spells, more casting power, and which can even manage favorable melee abilities with combos like Persisted Bite of the Werewolf+ Wraithstrike+Draconic Polymorph.

[Gurgeh]

Wait, why would you waste a feat on Practiced Spellcaster in that Sorcadin build? You're only losing two CL from your Paladin levels, there are way better things for you to be burning a feat on (and Martial Arcanist will keep your CL fixed at your BAB if for whatever reason you choose to drop more caster progression).

Still, that's pretty nifty. Nerfed full casting is pretty neat, even if it runs into problems once you run out of AbjC levels (since offhand I can't think of any other Gish PrCs that don't require heavy armour proficiency).

Sorcadin also gets significantly better armour options (since it's a lot easier to reduce the ASF of heavy/medium armour through mithral etc than it is to increase the AC bonus of light armour) but if you're playing smart you can probably minimise the importance of AC anyway.

[jebbewocky]

I thought the Standard gish build was Pal2/Sorc4/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 10? I guess that could be Eberron only though? At least, that's what I'd do. Better BAB, though you lose another CL,and thus, 9th level spells.
HMM.

[Coidzor]

Unless you're satisfied with Duskblade or Magus.

Well, that requires thinking Duskblades are really gishes or Pathfinder being on the table. :smalltongue:


I thought the Standard gish build was Pal2/Sorc4/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 10? I guess that could be Eberron only though? At least, that's what I'd do. Better BAB, though you lose another CL,and thus, 9th level spells.
HMM.

The only problem with Knight Phantom and Eldritch Knight is that first level. Well, the class features could stand to be nicer or exist, respectively.

Sorcerers can only afford to lose 2 levels of casting when gishing unlike wizards which can afford to lose up to 3. Granted, kobolds + dragonwrought and/or the greater draconic rite of passage can change this up.