PDA

View Full Version : Toughness Feat Fix



Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 12:38 AM
Toughness

Adds your CON score in HP permanently. Can be taken multiple times.

Overpowered? Still useless? Eh?

Also, for some context, I'm asking your opinions on this fix because I'm maybe running a Core only (or mostly core) campaign coming up and I hate the idea of these kinds of waste feats. So, do you think it contends (in this state) with some of the better PHB Feats or no?

Temotei
2013-03-20, 12:48 AM
Overpowered? Still useless? Eh?

Also, for some context, I'm asking your opinions on this fix because I'm maybe running a Core only (or mostly core) campaign coming up and I hate the idea of these kinds of waste feats. So, do you think it contends (in this state) with some of the better PHB Feats or no?

You become basically invincible at very low levels and then the feat becomes outclassed at higher levels again. It's much better, but for reference, Improved Toughness (+1 hp/HD) is considered mediocre or bad and even its variant (+3 hp and +1 hp/HD) is just meh.

Anything that just adds hit points isn't going to be great, though.

Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 12:52 AM
You become basically invincible at very low levels and then the feat becomes outclassed at higher levels again. It's much better, but for reference, Improved Toughness (+1 hp/HD) is considered mediocre or bad and even its variant (+3 hp and +1 hp/HD) is just meh.

Anything that just adds hit points isn't going to be great, though.

Yeah that's true... I feel so spoiled you know? Having a bunch of sourcebooks to pull feats and abilities from, and now having to return to (mostly) core so I can show new people the game without overloading them. I really hate to have to say to them "This feat is just useless... and so is that one...and that one..."

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-03-20, 12:57 AM
...I had never actually read the text of toughness until this moment.

That is awful. That is horribly awful. Is it meant to be a joke? Were the designers drunk? Who wrote that?

That being said, I could see something like a flat 2-4HP/level being a not-unreasonable feat. Still not great, but not a simple case of player trolling, either. I wouldn't tie it to con, because this feat is most useful to players currently suffering - say, the sorcerer who has somehow racked up a -3 CON modifier, and is stuck at 1HP per level. Make the text of the feat such that the bonus HP apply *after* everything, so if you have penalties that would reduce you to less than 1 HP per level, you still get 3 or 5 per level with this feat.

Temotei
2013-03-20, 12:59 AM
Yeah that's true... I feel so spoiled you know? Having a bunch of sourcebooks to pull feats and abilities from, and now having to return to (mostly) core so I can show new people the game without overloading them. I really hate to have to say to them "This feat is just useless... and so is that one...and that one..."

I know the feeling. "Let's keep it simple," say they. "Screw that," I say. "It's simpler when you're not dead because you're worthless."

How about this: "You permanently have a number of temporary hit points equal to your Hit Dice plus your Constitution modifier (minimum 1). You may rest for 1 minute to restore these temporary hit points."

This way, it's still meaningful at low levels without being too good while at the same time being "just okay" at higher levels because it scales decently. Thoughts?

bobthe6th
2013-03-20, 01:01 AM
Yeah that's true... I feel so spoiled you know? Having a bunch of sourcebooks to pull feats and abilities from, and now having to return to (mostly) core so I can show new people the game without overloading them. I really hate to have to say to them "This feat is just useless... and so is that one...and that one..."

Look at the core coliseum (http://community.wizards.com/coco/go/forum/viewboard)... SRD core, and there is more builds then you could shake a stick at.

Though I would suggest using the rest of 3.5 to grab stuff from. A list of feats that fill out limited chains(the spring attack improvments), and ones that make builds viable(Dark stalker).

Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 01:06 AM
That is awful. That is horribly awful. Is it meant to be a joke? Were the designers drunk? Who wrote that?

That being said, I could see something like a flat 2-4HP/level being a not-unreasonable feat. Still not great, but not a simple case of player trolling, either. I wouldn't tie it to con, because this feat is most useful to players currently suffering - say, the sorcerer who has somehow racked up a -3 CON modifier, and is stuck at 1HP per level.

I feel this way about a lot of feats... Leadership (Which I feel should be a Roleplaying Element, not something unlocked through game rules) and things that add +2 to this skill and that skill are all just huge wastes.

You're right about the idea being for characters who are lacking in HP. I hadn't initially thought about how they'd have a low CON and it really wouldn't end up doing more for them.


I know the feeling. "Let's keep it simple," say they. "Screw that," I say. "It's simpler when you're not dead because you're worthless."

How about this: "You permanently have a number of temporary hit points equal to your Hit Dice plus your Constitution modifier (minimum 1). These temporary hit points are restored automatically every minute in which you take no damage."

This way, it's still meaningful at low levels without being too good while at the same time being "just okay" at higher levels because it scales decently. Thoughts?

This premise reminds me of a game like Mass Effect where you lose health in segments and those individual segments can be restored just by not taking damage for a few seconds.

I don't know... I could see it becoming a pretty popular level-1 feat the way you've suggested it. Which is good, because I want it to be useful.

Draz74
2013-03-20, 01:23 AM
I know the feeling. "Let's keep it simple," say they. "Screw that," I say. "It's simpler when you're not dead because you're worthless."

How about this: "You permanently have a number of temporary hit points equal to your Hit Dice plus your Constitution modifier (minimum 1). These temporary hit points are restored automatically every minute in which you take no damage."

This way, it's still meaningful at low levels without being too good while at the same time being "just okay" at higher levels because it scales decently. Thoughts?

One of the better fixes I've seen. Pretty good way to make it scale.

Keeping track of "how many rounds has it been since I took damage?" during combat is a headache, though. Might be better if you actually had to rest for one minute to renew the tHP.

TuggyNE
2013-03-20, 01:24 AM
I feel this way about a lot of feats... Leadership (Which I feel should be a Roleplaying Element, not something unlocked through game rules) and things that add +2 to this skill and that skill are all just huge wastes.

Leadership is indeed one of the most broken feats brokenly powerful, that is. With decent optimization you can do all kinds of absurd stuff to abuse WBL, action economy, or spells.

ericgrau
2013-03-20, 01:24 AM
For a near core game improved toughness is quite good, probably too good. I'd even do 2 hp per 3 levels, non-stackable. For that matter there is a reason con is everyone's second stat. Even outside of core you have to be playing at rather super high op before hp doesn't matter. If you're going combo-riffic then you need all your feats for your combo and can't fit it, but it still doesn't suck.

Regular toughness works in core for levels 1-5, the problem comes on anyone who plans on going to a higher level. It's a scaling issue which scaling hp fixes. The issue gets even worse outside of core as feats get better in general.

Temotei
2013-03-20, 01:27 AM
One of the better fixes I've seen. Pretty good way to make it scale.

Keeping track of "how many rounds has it been since I took damage?" during combat is a headache, though. Might be better if you actually had to rest for one minute to renew the tHP.

That's a good idea. Edited in to my post in case anyone cares.

Jane_Smith
2013-03-20, 03:48 AM
Or you could just remove toughness entirely, and combine it with great fortitude, combine improved initiative with lightning reflexes, and something with iron will. These 3 feats have needed love for a long time.

Great Fortitude: con bonus as bonus hit points, +1 hit point/hit dice, +2 to fort saves.

Lightning Reflexes: +4 to initiative checks, +1 dodge to ac, +2 to reflex saves.

Iron Will: +4 to concentration checks, you may half (rounded up) or double the duration of any mind-affecting effect on you. +2 to will saves.

Debihuman
2013-03-20, 04:03 AM
How about the PCs don't take the feats that they don't like, work on increasing their Con in 4 levels, and let the DM use the toughness feat on the monster?

Not all feats are there just to serve PCs' purposes. If you "fix" it for the PCs then I'd say wait and see how much good it does when your DM gives it to his monsters.

It isn't broken and it doesn't need fixing.

Fortuna
2013-03-20, 04:36 AM
If your monsters need to take junk feats to be of an appropriate power level, then I'm going to call that a problem with the monsters and how they gain feats rather than a feature of the feats themselves.

For my own take on a toughness fix, I'd personally tie it to hit dice. Any feat that adds flat hit points, or hit points per Con mod, or hit points per hit die, or what have you, will be far more valuable for those already fragile than for those who can take a hit or two. I would have it act as a multiplier on your hit points from hit dice, rather than being additive. For example, perhaps you get one hit point per d4, two per d6, three per d8, four per d10 and five per d12 (this example is more or less worthless for the fragile folks, and is intended only as a rough sketch-of-concept, not an actual draft feat).

Jane_Smith
2013-03-20, 04:59 AM
It isn't broken and it doesn't need fixing.

If your gonna come to the homebrew section to tell someone there idea of a fix is unneeded, etc, rather then give more helpful advice, be a dear and don't speak. The fact you came here to this section of the forum to tell someone something does not need to be fixed means you just browsed the HOMEBREW threads, found one that should hold no relative interest to you if that comment is true to your opinion, purely to make that out of place and unneeded comment. That's beyond rude, unnecessary, unhelpful, and I will call you out on it. :smallannoyed:

That aside, There was a series of feats from 3.0 that was like "Dragonblooded", etc, that added more and more hp in a tree. Like toughness 3, then next one was 10, then 20, then 30. So obviously wotc thinks its fine to give a flat 3-30 hp in single pre-epic feats. You could always make it like, +5 or more hp, +1 per level, even 10 flat would be nice. Or maybe just a flat 15, take it as many times as you like.

Just to Browse
2013-03-20, 05:01 AM
Debi, toughness is just as crap on a monster as it is on a PC. 3 HP means almost nothing after level 2, which means the feat is broken and does need fixing.

Standard toughness is like the best feat ever at level 1 because 3 HP is maybe half of a wizard's HP in the first place. If you make toughness 1 HP + 2HP/lvl gives you toughness at level 1, and then a significant chunk of hit points thereon out.

But honestly the idea of granting HP from straight out from a feat bothers me. Perhaps it could be a feat chain?

Veklim
2013-03-20, 07:09 AM
I presented a bunch of rolled-up feats a while back in an attempt to rectify the awful feats in PHB, and to reduce feat taxes slightly, you can find it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12256690&postcount=1), perhaps it is relevant/useful to you!? :smallbiggrin:

Frozen_Feet
2013-03-20, 07:34 AM
This thread got me thinking of my own toughness fix. Specifically, how well it scales to high levels. Here's the relevant text:



Toughness [General] [Tenacity] [Fighter]
Benefit: For each [Tenacity] feat you have, you can add again your Constitution modifier (if positive) to your Hitpoints. If your constitution increases afterwards, this benefit retroactively increases.
At four or more [Tenacity] feats, you get the ability to once per encounter, when rolling iniative, get twice the number of your [Tenacity] feats as Temporary hitpoints. This takes no action.

Now, at low levels, the effect is quite mild. Suppose you are a Barbarian, with 18 con. Raging puts you at 22. That's +6 hitpoints. Nice, but not something that breaks the game.

Flash-forward to level 9. You can expect to have 3 - 4 [Tenacity] feats. Let's suppose your Con stays about the same. +18 to +24 hitpoints, hot or not?

And then we have the extreme far end, Level 20 Human Fighter who spends all his feats (17, under my fix) on [Tenacity] feats and optimizes for Con. 34 Con isn't even hard. That'd be +12 x 17 = 204 bonus hitpoints, and 34 Temporary hitpoints on top. At high levels, you can expect between 100 to 300 hitpoints on top of your existing ones from this single feat. Good, bad, broken?

ngilop
2013-03-20, 11:34 AM
My own version of Toughness goes like this 2 bonus HP plus an additional bonus HP per Hit Die


so at first level/first hit die it +3 HP but at say Level 20 its +22 HP, not all that amazingly Oped as say Natural Spell or any of the meta magic feats but it is better than having 2 higher con in terms of extra hit points

I thought about Improved toughness giving the same amount of HP but alos adding in either extra natural Armor or Damage reduction.

But yeah a flat amount no matter where it is is over powered at one point just about right at another and completely overshadowed at a third point.

Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 12:03 PM
I know the feeling. "Let's keep it simple," say they. "Screw that," I say. "It's simpler when you're not dead because you're worthless."

How about this: "You permanently have a number of temporary hit points equal to your Hit Dice plus your Constitution modifier (minimum 1). You may rest for 1 minute to restore these temporary hit points."

This way, it's still meaningful at low levels without being too good while at the same time being "just okay" at higher levels because it scales decently. Thoughts?

I accept this as an improvement over my original idea, thanks Temotei and Draz.

Yitzi
2013-03-20, 12:10 PM
Keep in mind that all those monsters who take Toughness numerous times will be boosted a lot by that, so that'll need compensating for.

Carl
2013-03-20, 01:12 PM
Here's a simple idea:


"All current and future Hit Dice are now maximised, i.e. treat them as having rolled the maximum possible.".

It's powerful, but not insane. Obviously you'd have to limit it to 1 rank only and treat excess ranks on monsters with it as lost, but it works.

Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 01:27 PM
Here's a simple idea:


"All current and future Hit Dice are now maximised, i.e. treat them as having rolled the maximum possible.".

It's powerful, but not insane. Obviously you'd have to limit it to 1 rank only and treat excess ranks on monsters with it as lost, but it works.

As a houserule I typically do this anyway.

DracoDei
2013-03-20, 02:10 PM
To me, Toughness exists to help out low level d4 types. I can see the point to adding scaling to it.

Improved Toughness exists to... help out someone, don't know who, since I can't remember the pre-requisites.

My personal reason for coming to this thread was to check on some thinking I have about some class-specific feats for the Grace-Gift I am working on.

I think all that you need to know about the class for this circumstance is that get d12 hit-dice, lots of bonus feats, have some MAD problems, tend to get hit medium-often when played right*, and can do a 1 round version of Shield Other as one of their many swift action spell-like abilities.
*And either hardly at all, or very frequently when played either ineptly or munchkin.

I am trying to allow the feats to offset the MAD. My recommendations for playing it are: Cha > Str > Con > Dex ~= Wis ~= Int

As part of this I gave them the ability to take Improved Toughness at 1st level. Should be a good enough feat, especially in the long run, since, as I said, they get a LOT of bonus feats.

But even so, my play-test character is feeling a bit anemic in the hitpoint department compared to the campaign power level, plus I want to have feats for EVERYTHING.

What I have done is make some class-specific feats that have Improved Toughness as a prerequisite. I probably have the class level requirements set too high.
At level 11(Should be 3?) you can upgrade to +2 hp/HD.
At level 13(Should be 5?) you can further upgrade to +3 hp/HD.
At level 15(Should be 7?) you can further upgrade to +4 hp/HD.
Finally at level 17(Should be 9?) you can upgrade one last time to +6hp/HD.

I have been seriously considering making the jumps +2 rather than +1, with the final one being +3 instead of +2.... although that might not mesh with the reduced class-level requirements.


How about the PCs don't take the feats that they don't like, work on increasing their Con in 4 levels, and let the DM use the toughness feat on the monster?

Not all feats are there just to serve PCs' purposes. If you "fix" it for the PCs then I'd say wait and see how much good it does when your DM gives it to his monsters.

It isn't broken and it doesn't need fixing.


If your gonna come to the homebrew section to tell someone there idea of a fix is unneeded, etc, rather then give more helpful advice, be a dear and don't speak. The fact you came here to this section of the forum to tell someone something does not need to be fixed means you just browsed the HOMEBREW threads, found one that should hold no relative interest to you if that comment is true to your opinion, purely to make that out of place and unneeded comment. That's beyond rude, unnecessary, unhelpful, and I will call you out on it. :smallannoyed:
Eh, Debihuman is "my loyal nemesis". She is a bit... stodgy, for lack of a better word occurring to me at this time, but she means well, and her advice is worth considering.

Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 03:33 PM
How about the PCs don't take the feats that they don't like, work on increasing their Con in 4 levels, and let the DM use the toughness feat on the monster?

Not all feats are there just to serve PCs' purposes. If you "fix" it for the PCs then I'd say wait and see how much good it does when your DM gives it to his monsters.

It isn't broken and it doesn't need fixing.


If your gonna come to the homebrew section to tell someone there idea of a fix is unneeded, etc, rather then give more helpful advice, be a dear and don't speak. The fact you came here to this section of the forum to tell someone something does not need to be fixed means you just browsed the HOMEBREW threads, found one that should hold no relative interest to you if that comment is true to your opinion, purely to make that out of place and unneeded comment. That's beyond rude, unnecessary, unhelpful, and I will call you out on it. :smallannoyed:

That aside, There was a series of feats from 3.0 that was like "Dragonblooded", etc, that added more and more hp in a tree. Like toughness 3, then next one was 10, then 20, then 30. So obviously wotc thinks its fine to give a flat 3-30 hp in single pre-epic feats. You could always make it like, +5 or more hp, +1 per level, even 10 flat would be nice. Or maybe just a flat 15, take it as many times as you like.


Eh, Debihuman is "my loyal nemesis". She is a bit... stodgy, for lack of a better word occurring to me at this time, but she means well, and her advice is worth considering.

First of all, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I had been avoiding saying that, but so everyone is clear, I see it, good for her for thinking so, that's on her.

Second, thank you Jane for pointing out that if everyone came to the homebrew section and said "it doesn't need fixed, shut up" it would be really boring here. But again everyone gets their opinion, nothing to be done about that but carry on.

Third, (@ Draco) I didn't have a problem with her saying whatever she came here to say, it's a public forum. I just think it's weird that she came here out of her way to be so negative in a homebrewing forum. If everyone made posts like that, the quality of this forum would drop dramatically.

So it's there, we've all seen it, nothing else to do, no one cares anymore, back to topic.

@ Jane as for your suggestion of the Toughness coming down in a tree (which I had initially missed as it was overshadowed by the first half of your post) I think it's an awesome idea, and I I'm torn between this and the temporary HP as submitted by Temotei & Draz. Because I like the idea of introducing a really simple form of healing to the game.


To me, Toughness exists to help out low level d4 types. I can see the point to adding scaling to it.

Improved Toughness exists to... help out someone, don't know who, since I can't remember the pre-requisites.

My personal reason for coming to this thread was to check on some thinking I have about some class-specific feats for the Grace-Gift I am working on.

I think all that you need to know about the class for this circumstance is that get d12 hit-dice, lots of bonus feats, have some MAD problems, tend to get hit medium-often when played right*, and can do a 1 round version of Shield Other as one of their many swift action spell-like abilities.
*And either hardly at all, or very frequently when played either ineptly or munchkin.

I am trying to allow the feats to offset the MAD. My recommendations for playing it are: Cha > Str > Con > Dex ~= Wis ~= Int

As part of this I gave them the ability to take Improved Toughness at 1st level. Should be a good enough feat, especially in the long run, since, as I said, they get a LOT of bonus feats.

But even so, my play-test character is feeling a bit anemic in the hitpoint department compared to the campaign power level, plus I want to have feats for EVERYTHING.

What I have done is make some class-specific feats that have Improved Toughness as a prerequisite. I probably have the class level requirements set too high.
At level 11(Should be 3?) you can upgrade to +2 hp/HD.
At level 13(Should be 5?) you can further upgrade to +3 hp/HD.
At level 15(Should be 7?) you can further upgrade to +4 hp/HD.
Finally at level 17(Should be 9?) you can upgrade one last time to +6hp/HD.

I have been seriously considering making the jumps +2 rather than +1, with the final one being +3 instead of +2.... although that might not mesh with the reduced class-level requirements.

You're saying Class Specific Feats as in the same way that a Fighter can only select certain feats as his bonus feats right? So you want this class to have bonus feats, but only a limited selection?

If that's the case, then a scaling Toughness feat (or a Toughness Tree, or combination thereof) for use as a stepping stone to bigger Feats is a good way to get the class more health for sure, as they'll practically need it for basic advancement. The only draw I could think of is that there are probably better feats to use as Prerequisites that make more sense. I mean I can't think of a lot of feats that I could justify requiring your character to be "Healthier" to take. I hope that makes sense...

DracoDei
2013-03-20, 04:27 PM
You're saying Class Specific Feats as in the same way that a Fighter can only select certain feats as his bonus feats right? So you want this class to have bonus feats, but only a limited selection?
They are a limited selection but also, almost all of the ones I created have prerequisites of levels in the class, much like weapon specialization requires fighter (or warblade) levels. Hopefully, unlike weapon finesse, they are actually worth taking.

Note that they CAN spend their non-bonus feats on Grace-Gift specific feats, and hopefully it is a reasonable option to do so.

If that's the case, then a scaling Toughness feat (or a Toughness Tree, or combination thereof) for use as a stepping stone to bigger Feats is a good way to get the class more health for sure, as they'll practically need it for basic advancement. The only draw I could think of is that there are probably better feats to use as Prerequisites that make more sense. I mean I can't think of a lot of feats that I could justify requiring your character to be "Healthier" to take. I hope that makes sense...
Err... the ONLY things in that particular feat tree are things that give more hitpoints.

Copy of most relevant sections of class and feats (heavily edited for situational clarity):

Class feature:
Bonus Feats:
At various levels the grace-gift gains a bonus feat from the following lists. When taken in this way they do not need to meet the character level, ability score, base attack, maneuver/stance knowledge, or saving throw prerequisites of that feat. Prerequisites that take the form of other feats are required only for feats that are also on one of these lists. For example: the Improved Blocker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113722) feat requires the Combat Reflexes and Blocker feats, but, if taken in this manner does not require a +10 BAB, nor the Combat Expertise feat. They DO have to meet any class level requirements. For the bonus feats granted at first and second class levels only feats from List I may be selected.

Current schedule of feats (including general feat slots for single-classed characters).
{table=head]Level|Special

1st|Bonus Feat(I), General Feat (I or general)

2nd|Bonus Feat(I)

3rd|Bonus Feat(I or II), General Feat (I, II, or general)

4th|Bonus Feat(I or II)

5th|-

6th|General Feat (I to III, or general)

7th|Bonus Feat(I to IV)

8th|-

9th|Bonus Feat(I to V), General Feat (I to IV or general)

10th|-

11th|Bonus Feat(I to VI)

12th|General Feat (I to VI, or general)

13th|-

14th|Bonus Feat(I to VII)

15th|General Feat(I to VIII)

16th|-

17th|Bonus Feat(I to IX)

18th|General Feat(I to IX)

19th|Bonus Feat(I to IX)

20th|-
[/table]

List I:(Remember, I am cutting everything from these lists EXCEPT the hitpoint increasing feats)
Improved Toughness

List II (Grace-gift level 3):
-
List III (Grace-gift level 5):
-

List IV (Grace-gift level 7):
-

List V (Grace-gift level 9):
-

List VI (Grace-gift level 11):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least* (Requires Improved Toughness.)((Considering moving this whole feat chain back two class levels and adding a final one that gives +8/level. Or maybe even moving it back so it starts at 3rd level and each feat increments by 2, except for the last one which does 3.))

List VII (Grace gift level 13):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least, and Improved Toughness.)

List VIII (Grace gift level 15):
Grace-Gift's Toughness* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser, which, in turn, requires two other specific feats.)


List IX (Grace gift level 17):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, which, in turn, requires three other specific feats.)

*These feats are new and specific to the class.


New Feats
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and a shield that can not take a few nicks is utterly worthless.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 11, Improved Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +2/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and shields need to be strong.
Prerequisites:
Grace-gift level 13
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +3/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Grace-Gift's Toughness[Grace-Gift]
Some shields are better-made than others.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 15
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +4/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved [Grace-Gift]
Pain is only the sign that someone is making a feeble attempt to remove you from between them and those you protect.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 17
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Grace-Gift's Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +6/level(sic). This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 17 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 04:33 PM
They are a limited selection but also, almost all of the ones I created have prerequisites of levels in the class, much like weapon specialization requires fighter (or warblade) levels. Hopefully, unlike weapon finesse, they are actually worth taking.

Note that they CAN spend their non-bonus feats on Grace-Gift specific feats, and hopefully it is a reasonable option to do so.

Err... the ONLY things in that particular feat tree are things that give more hitpoints.

Copy of most relevant sections of class and feats (heavily edited for situational clarity):

Class feature:
Bonus Feats:
At various levels the grace-gift gains a bonus feat from the following lists. When taken in this way they do not need to meet the character level, ability score, base attack, maneuver/stance knowledge, or saving throw prerequisites of that feat. Prerequisites that take the form of other feats are required only for feats that are also on one of these lists. For example: the Improved Blocker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113722) feat requires the Combat Reflexes and Blocker feats, but, if taken in this manner does not require a +10 BAB, nor the Combat Expertise feat. They DO have to meet any class level requirements. For the bonus feats granted at first and second class levels only feats from List I may be selected.

Current schedule of feats (including general feat slots for single-classed characters).
{table=head]Level|Special

1st|Bonus Feat(I), General Feat (I or general)

2nd|Bonus Feat(I)

3rd|Bonus Feat(I or II), General Feat (I, II, or general)

4th|Bonus Feat(I or II)

5th|-

6th|General Feat (I to III, or general)

7th|Bonus Feat(I to IV)

8th|-

9th|Bonus Feat(I to V), General Feat (I to IV or general)

10th|-

11th|Bonus Feat(I to VI)

12th|General Feat (I to VI, or general)

13th|-

14th|Bonus Feat(I to VII)

15th|General Feat(I to VIII)

16th|-

17th|Bonus Feat(I to IX)

18th|General Feat(I to IX)

19th|Bonus Feat(I to IX)

20th|-
[/table]

List I:(Remember, I am cutting everything from these lists EXCEPT the hitpoint increasing feats)
Improved Toughness

List II (Grace-gift level 3):
-
List III (Grace-gift level 5):
-

List IV (Grace-gift level 7):
-

List V (Grace-gift level 9):
-

List VI (Grace-gift level 11):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least* (Requires Improved Toughness.)((Considering moving this whole feat chain back two class levels and adding a final one that gives +8/level. Or maybe even moving it back so it starts at 3rd level and each feat increments by 2, except for the last one which does 3.))

List VII (Grace gift level 13):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least, and Improved Toughness.)

List VIII (Grace gift level 15):
Grace-Gift's Toughness* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser, which, in turn, requires two other specific feats.)


List IX (Grace gift level 17):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, which, in turn, requires three other specific feats.)

*These feats are new and specific to the class.


New Feats
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and a shield that can not take a few nicks is utterly worthless.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 11, Improved Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +2/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and shields need to be strong.
Prerequisites:
Grace-gift level 13
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +3/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Grace-Gift's Toughness[Grace-Gift]
Some shields are better-made than others.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 15
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +4/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved [Grace-Gift]
Pain is only the sign that someone is making a feeble attempt to remove you from between them and those you protect.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 17
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Grace-Gift's Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +6/level(sic). This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 17 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.




I see what you're saying. And that's all I meant as far as using Toughness as a prerequisite. Is that it makes sense as a stepping stone for other health buffs, but the logic applies to other abilities a little less so. I could have been more clear in that last post, but essentially it sounds like you've covered your bases there.

So this class has to select only certain bonus feats and those feats can only be taken by the class? So why not make them a class feature instead? Not that I'm nitpicking, just asking why you decided not to do it that way.

ericgrau
2013-03-20, 04:39 PM
I can see Debi's point. Toughness does work fine for 1-5 HD monsters in a core or near-core game. Even with more optimization it's pretty swanky at 1-2 HD. And it's super easy for the DM build with. But on PCs hp is pretty boring, so for them why even have a feat for it?

But instead of ignoring it entirely, I'd shoot for a toughness feat that is slightly weak. That way most people won't take it, but those working on some kind of high hp build still have the option. For example my Pathfinder shield other healer had con as his primary stat and took Pathfinder toughness, which is similar to 3.5 improved toughness. That way he could redirect as much damage as possible.

DracoDei
2013-03-20, 04:56 PM
So this class has to select only certain bonus feats and those feats can only be taken by the class? So why not make them a class feature instead? Not that I'm nitpicking, just asking why you decided not to do it that way.
Because not ALL those feats can only be taken by the class, just (almost) all the ones I created myself.

For instance, the full list of (I) feats they can take is as follows:
List I:

Blind-fight
Combat Casting
Combat Reflexes(Special: A grace-gift who takes this feat as a grace-gift bonus feat may substitute Charisma for Dexterity for the purposes of determining how many attacks of opportunity he may make per round)
Devoted Bulwark(ToB)
Die Hard
Disease Resistance
Diving Evasion(Requires 1 Rank of Tumble.)
Dodge
Endurance
Evasive Reflexes(ToB)
Force of Will (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#forceOfWill)(Requires Iron Will.)
Great Fortitude
Hostile Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#hostileMind)
Improved Divine Protection*
Improved Toughness
?Iron Heart Aura (ToB)?
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Mental Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#mentalResistance)
Mobility(Requires Dodge.)
Mind Over Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#mindOverBody)
?Open Minded? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded)
Plague Bane*
Poison Resistance
XxProtecting Paladin*xX((This feat is just a sketch right now.))
Psionic Hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicHole)
Rapid Metabolism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#rapidMetabolism)
Sidestep Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#sidestepCharge)(Requires Dodge. Special: If taken as a Grace-Gift bonus feat the bonuses to Defensive Strike/Enhanced Defense Strike do NOT apply to this attack.)
Skill Focus(Concentration)
Skill Focus(Heal)
Skill Focus(Tumble)
Shielded Defender
Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill)
Stoic Defender*
Stone Power(ToB)
Touch of the Grace-Gift*
Up the Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls)(Requires you to either have a power point reserve or have psi-like abilities.)
?White Raven Defense(ToB)?


So, over 30 possibilities, only 5 of which require you to have levels of the class. Everything else is SRD, ToB, or my previous homebrew, and isn't meant to be class-specific.

Now at higher levels, you start running out of pre-existing feats I felt were effective enough, and which fit the themes of the Grace-Gift. In fact, from II (Grace-Gift level 3) onward, the class-specific feats that can be taken as bonus feats outnumber the pre-existing feats that can be taken as bonus feats. At VI (Grace-Gift level 11) and onward there ARE no pre-existing feats that I have found that are worth putting in. BUT if I found some, I could slot them in very easily because of the way I have structured everything.

Now I COULD do what they did with the rogues higher level "pick a special ability" and say "...or you can take a feat" and add on "from the following lists"... but that would only make an already VERY wordy class* even more difficult to read and require a very large amount of re-writing.

*Imagine Warlock, but they get all the invocations, and the invocations are built into the descriptions of the class abilities themselves. Yes, I am considering moving the "Gifts" to a seperate area, but there are problems with that since the levels they are obtained are not always odd numbers, and many of them gain SIGNIFICANT options (for instance turning from Levitate to Fly).


So... given the class is Cha > Str > Con > Int ~= Wis ~= Dex, and has a base d12 hitdie, and... everything else I said about how often they tend to get hurt and Shield Other, what do you think of the feats?

Network
2013-03-20, 06:00 PM
I see what you're saying. And that's all I meant as far as using Toughness as a prerequisite. Is that it makes sense as a stepping stone for other health buffs, but the logic applies to other abilities a little less so. I could have been more clear in that last post, but essentially it sounds like you've covered your bases there.
It would make sense if the feat works by hit point spending. Much like the Blood magus, but as feats. But, that's only an idea...

Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 06:39 PM
Because not ALL those feats can only be taken by the class, just (almost) all the ones I created myself.

For instance, the full list of (I) feats they can take is as follows:
List I:

Blind-fight
Combat Casting
Combat Reflexes(Special: A grace-gift who takes this feat as a grace-gift bonus feat may substitute Charisma for Dexterity for the purposes of determining how many attacks of opportunity he may make per round)
Devoted Bulwark(ToB)
Die Hard
Disease Resistance
Diving Evasion(Requires 1 Rank of Tumble.)
Dodge
Endurance
Evasive Reflexes(ToB)
Force of Will (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#forceOfWill)(Requires Iron Will.)
Great Fortitude
Hostile Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#hostileMind)
Improved Divine Protection*
Improved Toughness
?Iron Heart Aura (ToB)?
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Mental Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#mentalResistance)
Mobility(Requires Dodge.)
Mind Over Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#mindOverBody)
?Open Minded? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded)
Plague Bane*
Poison Resistance
XxProtecting Paladin*xX((This feat is just a sketch right now.))
Psionic Hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicHole)
Rapid Metabolism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#rapidMetabolism)
Sidestep Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#sidestepCharge)(Requires Dodge. Special: If taken as a Grace-Gift bonus feat the bonuses to Defensive Strike/Enhanced Defense Strike do NOT apply to this attack.)
Skill Focus(Concentration)
Skill Focus(Heal)
Skill Focus(Tumble)
Shielded Defender
Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill)
Stoic Defender*
Stone Power(ToB)
Touch of the Grace-Gift*
Up the Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls)(Requires you to either have a power point reserve or have psi-like abilities.)
?White Raven Defense(ToB)?


So, over 30 possibilities, only 5 of which require you to have levels of the class. Everything else is SRD, ToB, or my previous homebrew, and isn't meant to be class-specific.

Now at higher levels, you start running out of pre-existing feats I felt were effective enough, and which fit the themes of the Grace-Gift. In fact, from II (Grace-Gift level 3) onward, the class-specific feats that can be taken as bonus feats outnumber the pre-existing feats that can be taken as bonus feats. At VI (Grace-Gift level 11) and onward there ARE no pre-existing feats that I have found that are worth putting in. BUT if I found some, I could slot them in very easily because of the way I have structured everything.

Now I COULD do what they did with the rogues higher level "pick a special ability" and say "...or you can take a feat" and add on "from the following lists"... but that would only make an already VERY wordy class* even more difficult to read and require a very large amount of re-writing.

*Imagine Warlock, but they get all the invocations, and the invocations are built into the descriptions of the class abilities themselves. Yes, I am considering moving the "Gifts" to a seperate area, but there are problems with that since the levels they are obtained are not always odd numbers, and many of them gain SIGNIFICANT options (for instance turning from Levitate to Fly).


So... given the class is Cha > Str > Con > Int ~= Wis ~= Dex, and has a base d12 hitdie, and... everything else I said about how often they tend to get hurt and Shield Other, what do you think of the feats?

I would add Shot on the Run or Spring Attack. If only to make Up The Walls really worth it, since it doesn't do much on it's own but open up movement ability options down the line. And according to the Primary Attributes you've submitted for this class, WIS could easily end up being a dump stat and Up the Walls requires a 13 WIS minimum.

This is just based on a first glance though...


It would make sense if the feat works by hit point spending. Much like the Blood magus, but as feats. But, that's only an idea...

A good idea too. To make toughness a feat prerequisite of things that cause the character to intentionally drain his own HP.

I like the idea of enhancing toughness and making it a stepping stone for other feats. It becomes a lot more appealing.

DracoDei
2013-03-20, 06:47 PM
I would add Shot on the Run or Spring Attack. If only to make Up The Walls really worth it, since it doesn't do much on it's own but open up movement ability options down the line. And according to the Primary Attributes you've submitted for this class, WIS could easily end up being a dump stat and Up the Walls requires a 13 WIS minimum.

This is just based on a first glance though...
Heh... good thought based on what you know.

In the context of the class as a whole: Completely contrary to the feel of the class since they are SPECIFICALLY supposed to only attack via AoOs, except if they have a specific feat(GET OFF OF THEM!!!) that has very narrow requirements for who they can attack and is based off whirlwind attack (and multiple opponents tend to make Spring Attack less useful).

For a Grace-Gift, Up the Walls is for moving around the battle-field to get into the position you are needed most with your short-ranged buffs while not getting totally surrounded yourself.

A good idea too. To make toughness a feat prerequisite of things that cause the character to intentionally drain his own HP.

I like the idea of enhancing toughness and making it a stepping stone for other feats. It becomes a lot more appealing.
Just so we are clear, Grace-Gift doesn't do that, but since this thread isn't about the Grace-Gift that is hardly a problem, now is it? (And thank you for helping me out.)

Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 06:56 PM
Heh... good thought based on what you know.

In the context of the class as a whole: Completely contrary to the feel of the class since they are SPECIFICALLY supposed to only attack via AoOs, except if they have a specific feat(GET OFF OF THEM!!!) that has very narrow requirements for who they can attack and is based off whirlwind attack (and multiple opponents tend to make Spring Attack less useful).

For a Grace-Gift, Up the Walls is for moving around the battle-field to get into the position you are needed most with your short-ranged buffs while not getting totally surrounded yourself.

Just so we are clear, Grace-Gift doesn't do that, but since this thread isn't about the Grace-Gift that is hardly a problem, now is it? (And thank you for helping me out.)

We drifted a little ways to get there, but I'm glad I could help. XD

Also glad that people (generally) agreed that the Toughness feat needs a kick in the ass.

LordErebus12
2013-03-20, 07:07 PM
Toughness

Prerequisites: Constitution 13+

Benefit: Add two hit dice worth of hp to the character's total. This does not count as an actual increase of hit dice, only counting as actual hp.

Special: this feat may be taken multiple times, however doing so only adds 1hp per hit dice (again not factoring the extra 2 HD from this feat).

DracoDei
2013-03-20, 07:13 PM
Toughness

Prerequisites: Constitution 13+

Benefit: Add two hit dice worth of hp to the character's total. This does not count as an actual increase of hit dice, only counting as actual hp.

Special: this feat may be taken multiple times, however doing so only adds 1hp per hit dice (again not factoring the extra 2 HD from this feat).

Could work, although the wording needs to be improved a lot. For instance you need to specify that the extra hitpoints come for future levels (and level drain).

Also, unless you are just trying to make things work in a more obvious fashion for monsters that have Toughness more than once, I would make it two separate feats.

Finally, I approximately fixed the feat name size.

LordErebus12
2013-03-20, 07:17 PM
Could work, although the wording needs to be improved a lot. For instance you need to specify that the extra hitpoints come for future levels (and level drain).

Also, unless you are just trying to make things work in a more obvious fashion for monsters that have Toughness more than once, I would make it two separate feats.

Finally, I approximately fixed the feat name size.

howd you word it?

DracoDei
2013-03-20, 07:26 PM
howd you word it?
Sorry, don't feel like putting in more time.

LordErebus12
2013-03-20, 07:41 PM
Sorry, don't feel like putting in more time.

lol, fair enough...

Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 08:04 PM
Sorry, don't feel like putting in more time.

This post blew my mind. I never thought to ever say that before now...


Toughness

Prerequisites: Constitution 13+

Benefit: Add two HD worth of HP to the character's total Health. If you have multiple classes with different HD, pick whichever is the largest. This increase to Health is permanent but does not count as additional HD for the character / creature, including the effects of taking this feat a second time. (see special)

Special: You may take this feat more than once, however after the first time your character / creature only gains 1HP per current HD. For example, if you have 3d4 HD, you only gain +3 Health.


I don't have much of a problem with the way this was worded but I threw my creative wet paper towel at it to see if it sticks anyway.

LordErebus12
2013-03-20, 08:19 PM
Toughness

Prerequisites: Constitution 13+

Benefit: Add two HD worth of HP to the character's total Health. If you have multiple classes with different HD, pick whichever is the largest. This increase to Health is permanent but does not count as additional HD for the character / creature, meaning this does not increase base attack bonus, skills and skill points, saves, spells known and spells per day, etc. This also includes the effects of taking this feat a second time. (see special)

Special: You may take this feat more than once. However, after the first time it is taken, your character/creature only gains 1HP per current HD. For example, if you have 3d4 HD, you only gain +3 Health.

Lappy9001
2013-03-20, 08:29 PM
I feel a change to the way HP works would be better in general. 4e had a snazzy idea of adding your Constitution Score to your HP at 1st level, and we've always used a house rule that you get 1 reroll for your Hit Dice each level (which works great).

Basically make a quick change or two and just scrap Toughness. Or leave it in. If someone really wants to take it, I suppose they should be able to (or at least the Toughness/Improved Toughness combo of +3 and +1 each HD)

LordErebus12
2013-03-20, 09:04 PM
How about this?
Toughness

Prerequisites: Constitution 13+

Benefit: Increase all current and future Hit Dice gained from one chosen class by one step. re-roll all current hit dice, taking the higher of the two totals.

{colsp=6}
Hit Dice Increase
d4|d6|d8|d10|d12|d20



Special: This feat can only be taken once.

DracoDei
2013-03-20, 09:08 PM
Seems a lot to bet on a single 50/50 chance.

LordErebus12
2013-03-20, 09:13 PM
How about this?
Toughness

Prerequisites: Constitution 13+

Benefit: Increase all current and future Hit Dice gained from one chosen class by one step. re-roll all current hit dice, taking the higher of the two totals.

{colsp=6}
Hit Dice Increase
d4|d6|d8|d10|d12|d20



Special: This feat can only be taken once.

ericgrau
2013-03-20, 09:18 PM
This post blew my mind. I never thought to ever say that before now...
Lolol it's so blunt too. I need a polite way to say the same thing, just about all the time.

If you're giving players max hp every level, that does make extra hp not worth as much so you can give out more. Other than that... <insert yet to be determined polite statement here>.

Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 09:20 PM
Lolol it's so blunt too. I need a polite way to say the same thing, just about all the time.

If you're giving players max hp every level, that does make extra hp not worth as much so you can give out more. Other than that... <insert yet to be determined polite statement here>.

Right? I had considered going to the Friendly Banter thread just to find an acceptable way to do that...

@ Lord Erebus, that's a HUGE HP gain for the benefit of a single feat.

LordErebus12
2013-03-20, 09:39 PM
@ Lord Erebus, that's a HUGE HP gain for the benefit of a single feat.

yes

Then again, its not a waste of a feat, like toughness is. In fact, its positively useful for all classes, especially at later levels. It also allows a character who has rolled terribly to possibly redeem itself, hp wise.

Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 09:59 PM
yes

Then again, its not a waste of a feat, like toughness is. In fact, its positively useful for all classes, especially at later levels. It also allows a character who has rolled terribly to possibly redeem itself, hp wise.

True, but assume a lv-12 Barbarian takes the feat. His maximum health at lv-12 before applying the CON mod would be 240. Surely if anyone rolls a nat 20, twelve times in a row they're a witch and deserve to be burned at the stake, their dice tossed into the ocean and back to R'lyeh from whence they came, but still. It becomes too useful at this point.

I'm not saying this isn't a good train of thought. Just that adjustments should be made to bring it down a notch.

Off the top of my head, keeping the other elements (re-rolling your HD and maybe adding double your CON mod this time around)

Or stepping the HD up, but on a different line of progress. Something like...

d4 > d6 > d8 > d10 > d12 > 3d4 (or even 4d4 for a range of 4-16.)

For your consideration, a Barbarian with maxed HD at lv 12 would have 144 using only d12's. With 3d4, that doesn't change. Just changes the minimum roll he could make (so taking some of the risk out.) With 4d6 it becomes 192 (so an extra 48 HP is gained.) And like I said earlier with d20 it becomes 240 (for a 96 HP difference) Which, in my opinion, is a bit too much. Even though it would likely not happen that way.

LordErebus12
2013-03-20, 10:02 PM
Toughness

Prerequisites: Constitution 13+

Benefit: Increase all current and future Hit Dice gained from one chosen class by one step. re-roll all current hit dice, taking the higher of the two totals.

{colsp=6}
Hit Dice Increase
1d4|1d6|1d8|1d10|1d12|4d4*


Special: This feat can only be taken once.

*: This never actually counts as four hit dice, it counts only as one hit dice for the purpose of effects or abilities based on Hit Dice.

Amechra
2013-03-20, 10:12 PM
Why not have the dice increase in size like weapon damage dice do, with that kind of progression?

Then you could have it so that you count the full number of dice you have as your HD for the purpose of effects that vary based on the number of HD you have.

Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 10:36 PM
Toughness

Prerequisites: Constitution 13+

Benefit: Increase all current and future Hit Dice gained from one chosen class by one step. re-roll all current hit dice, taking the higher of the two totals.

{colsp=6}
Hit Dice Increase
1d4|1d6|1d8|1d10|1d12|4d4


Special: This feat can only be taken once.

I feel like this is a decent compromise, well done.


Why not have the dice increase in size like weapon damage dice do, with that kind of progression?

Then you could have it so that you count the full number of dice you have as your HD for the purpose of effects that vary based on the number of HD you have.

I'm running off of memory here, but I think that the weapon size table varies between using 1 & 2 dice. (1d8 > 2d4 > 1d10 > 1d12 > 2d6) So some cases could end up with twice as much HD on certain creatures, which would make life harder for some necromancers.

LordErebus12
2013-03-21, 12:22 AM
Toughness

Prerequisites: Constitution 13+

Benefit: Increase all current and future Hit Dice gained from one chosen class by one step. re-roll all current hit dice, taking the higher of the two totals.

{colsp=6}
Hit Dice Increase
1d4|1d6|1d8|1d10|1d12|4d4*


Special: This feat can only be taken once.

*: This never actually counts as four hit dice, it counts only as one hit dice for the purpose of effects or abilities based on Hit Dice.

I felt it needed the clarification.

Octopusapult
2013-03-21, 12:29 AM
I felt it needed the clarification.

Can't hurt to be prepared. Isn't that the Factotum motto? :smalltongue:

LordErebus12
2013-03-21, 01:35 AM
Can't hurt to be prepared. Isn't that the Factotum motto? :smalltongue:

more or less. :smallwink:

Frozen_Feet
2013-03-21, 02:22 AM
Didn't see comments on my version, so I'll ask again: what do you think of the following figures? To the left is Con modifier, to the right is number of [Tenacity] feats. The numbers are amount of bonus hitpoints received.

You can assume a typical character has 1 feat every 3 levels and a fighter has 1 feat every 1,5 levels.

{table=head]Con mod/Nro. of Feats | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20
+1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20
+2 | 2 | 4 | 6 | 8 | 10 | 12 | 14 | 16 | 18 | 20 | 22 | 24 | 26 | 28 | 30 | 32 | 34 | 36 | 38 | 40
+3 | 3 | 6 | 9 | 12 | 15 | 18 | 21 | 24 | 27 | 30 | 33 | 36 | 39 | 42 | 45 | 48 | 51 | 54 | 57 | 60
+4 | 4 | 8 | 12 | 16 | 20 | 24 | 28 | 32 | 36 | 40 | 44 | 48 | 52 | 56 | 60 | 64 | 68 | 72 | 76 | 80
+5 | 5 | 10 | 15 | 20 | 25 | 30 | 35 | 40 | 45 | 50 | 55 | 60 | 65 | 70 | 75 | 80 | 85 | 90 | 95 | 100
+6 | 6 | 12 | 18 | 24 | 30 | 36 | 42 | 48 | 54 | 60 | 66 | 72 | 78 | 84 | 90 | 96 | 102 | 108 | 114 | 120
+7 | 7 | 14 | 21 | 28 | 35 | 42 | 49 | 56 | 63 | 70 | 77 | 84 | 91 | 98 | 105 | 112 | 119 | 126 | 133 | 140
+8 | 8 | 16 | 24 | 32 | 40 | 48 | 56 | 64 | 72 | 80 | 88 | 96 | 104 | 112 | 120 | 128 | 136 | 144 | 152 | 160
+9 | 9 | 18 | 27 | 36 | 45 | 54 | 63 | 72 | 81 | 90 | 99 | 108 | 117 | 126 | 135 | 144 | 153 | 162 | 171 | 180
+10 | 10 | 20 | 30 | 40 | 50 | 60 | 70 | 80 | 90 | 100 | 110 | 120 | 130 | 140 | 150 | 160 | 170 | 180 | 190 | 200
+11 | 11 | 22 | 33 | 44 | 55 | 66 | 77 | 88 | 99 | 110 | 121 | 132 | 143 | 154 | 165 | 176 | 187 | 198 | 209 | 220
+12 | 12 | 24 | 36 | 48 | 60 | 72 | 84 | 96 | 108 | 120 | 132 | 144 | 156 | 168 | 180 | 192 | 204 | 216 | 228 | 240
[/table]

LordErebus12
2013-03-21, 03:14 AM
Didn't see comments on my version, so I'll ask again: what do you think of the following figures? To the left is Con modifier, to the right is number of [Tenacity] feats. The numbers are amount of bonus hitpoints received.

You can assume a typical character has 1 feat every 3 levels and a fighter has 1 feat every 1,5 levels.

{table=head]Con mod/Nro. of Feats | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20
+1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20
+2 | 2 | 4 | 6 | 8 | 10 | 12 | 14 | 16 | 18 | 20 | 22 | 24 | 26 | 28 | 30 | 32 | 34 | 36 | 38 | 40
+3 | 3 | 6 | 9 | 12 | 15 | 18 | 21 | 24 | 27 | 30 | 33 | 36 | 39 | 42 | 45 | 48 | 51 | 54 | 57 | 60
+4 | 4 | 8 | 12 | 16 | 20 | 24 | 28 | 32 | 36 | 40 | 44 | 48 | 52 | 56 | 60 | 64 | 68 | 72 | 76 | 80
+5 | 5 | 10 | 15 | 20 | 25 | 30 | 35 | 40 | 45 | 50 | 55 | 60 | 65 | 70 | 75 | 80 | 85 | 90 | 95 | 100
+6 | 6 | 12 | 18 | 24 | 30 | 36 | 42 | 48 | 54 | 60 | 66 | 72 | 78 | 84 | 90 | 96 | 102 | 108 | 114 | 120
+7 | 7 | 14 | 21 | 28 | 35 | 42 | 49 | 56 | 63 | 70 | 77 | 84 | 91 | 98 | 105 | 112 | 119 | 126 | 133 | 140
+8 | 8 | 16 | 24 | 32 | 40 | 48 | 56 | 64 | 72 | 80 | 88 | 96 | 104 | 112 | 120 | 128 | 136 | 144 | 152 | 160
+9 | 9 | 18 | 27 | 36 | 45 | 54 | 63 | 72 | 81 | 90 | 99 | 108 | 117 | 126 | 135 | 144 | 153 | 162 | 171 | 180
+10 | 10 | 20 | 30 | 40 | 50 | 60 | 70 | 80 | 90 | 100 | 110 | 120 | 130 | 140 | 150 | 160 | 170 | 180 | 190 | 200
+11 | 11 | 22 | 33 | 44 | 55 | 66 | 77 | 88 | 99 | 110 | 121 | 132 | 143 | 154 | 165 | 176 | 187 | 198 | 209 | 220
+12 | 12 | 24 | 36 | 48 | 60 | 72 | 84 | 96 | 108 | 120 | 132 | 144 | 156 | 168 | 180 | 192 | 204 | 216 | 228 | 240
[/table]

my eyes! what the hell am i looking at? :smallconfused:

Just to Browse
2013-03-21, 03:26 AM
It's bonus HP by constitution mod (column) and the number of times you took toughness (row). It looks too complicated.

LordErebus12
2013-03-21, 03:48 AM
It's bonus HP by constitution mod (column) and the number of times you took toughness (row). It looks too complicated.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Frozen_Feet
2013-03-21, 04:29 AM
It's bonus HP by constitution mod (column) and the number of times you took toughness (row). It looks too complicated.

Not the times you took toughness, but the number of [Tenacity] feats you have. They could be any feats with that tag.

I'm not interested in how complex it seems, it's simple multiplication. What I'm interested in is how the numbers seem to you - too high, too low, or what?

Zelkon
2013-03-21, 08:18 AM
One of the worst game moments I've had was convincing a player of a barbarian not to take toughness only to have him take exactly enough damage to fell him the first fight. Toughness would have saved him!
Anyway, maybe you multiply your roll by 1.5 at each level?

Sampi
2013-03-21, 08:36 AM
This is the way I run it:

Toughness

Add 3 hit points to your total. In addition, the minimum roll for a hit die is 3. Example: a wizard has taken Toughness as a feat. He levels up, and rolls 1d4 for hit points. The result is 1. Because he has the Toughness feat, he adds 3+CON modifier hit points to his total.

This feat can only be taken once. A fighter may select Toughness yada yada..

This fix makes it a viable choice for classes with smaller hit dice. Also, it nicely increases mean HD rolls by 1, making monster HP easy to recalculate, if they have Toughness. Just add 1 HP/HD.

I know it does not make Toughness an especially lucrative feat (except for maybe Wizards and Sorcerers), but I don't think it needs to be.

DracoDei
2013-03-21, 12:44 PM
Anyway, maybe you multiply your roll by 1.5 at each level?
Good for high HD types with or without good con.

Not so quite so great for a CON 8 sorcerer at 1st level or an unlucky guy at higher levels.

Might work, might not.

Octopusapult
2013-03-21, 12:48 PM
Not the times you took toughness, but the number of [Tenacity] feats you have. They could be any feats with that tag.

I'm not interested in how complex it seems, it's simple multiplication. What I'm interested in is how the numbers seem to you - too high, too low, or what?

It makes sense to me, I just don't like the idea of something scaling based on how many feats I have. If only because it's kind of a unique way to scale something for the purposes of determining the benefit of a single feat. If this method of tracking was used on other mechanics, I'd be more inclined to use it, just not as it stands.

(and maybe it is used on other mechanics and I'm just not as savvy as you are, in which case I'm making an ass of myself.)

The only other problem I have is that it might be a little complicated to implement in a [mostly] core only game with relatively new players. Which is a personal problem, but also kind of the real reason I made the thread. So take it or leave it, that's just my two coppers.


One of the worst game moments I've had was convincing a player of a barbarian not to take toughness only to have him take exactly enough damage to fell him the first fight. Toughness would have saved him!
Anyway, maybe you multiply your roll by 1.5 at each level?

Hindsight can often be cruel... it's good not to dwell in the past, and to keep multiple character concepts prepared. :smallbiggrin:


This is the way I run it:

Toughness

Add 3 hit points to your total. In addition, the minimum roll for a hit die is 3. Example: a wizard has taken Toughness as a feat. He levels up, and rolls 1d4 for hit points. The result is 1. Because he has the Toughness feat, he adds 3+CON modifier hit points to his total.

This feat can only be taken once. A fighter may select Toughness yada yada..

This fix makes it a viable choice for classes with smaller hit dice. Also, it nicely increases mean HD rolls by 1, making monster HP easy to recalculate, if they have Toughness. Just add 1 HP/HD.

I know it does not make Toughness an especially lucrative feat (except for maybe Wizards and Sorcerers), but I don't think it needs to be.

See this is a simple and elegant fix. I like the way it's done, it's easy enough to explain to new players, and it doesn't make toughness an obvious 1st level feat. It puts it right there with most of the other core feats.

DracoDei
2013-03-21, 01:51 PM
It makes sense to me, I just don't like the idea of something scaling based on how many feats I have. If only because it's kind of a unique way to scale something for the purposes of determining the benefit of a single feat. If this method of tracking was used on other mechanics, I'd be more inclined to use it, just not as it stands.

(and maybe it is used on other mechanics and I'm just not as savvy as you are, in which case I'm making an ass of myself.)

I think that a lot of the feats that are strongly tied to a specific alignment work that way. Mutations and [Exalted] and such.

I could be wrong.

I don't know much about them.

Octopusapult
2013-03-21, 02:00 PM
I think that a lot of the feats that are strongly tied to a specific alignment work that way. Mutations and [Exalted] and such.

I could be wrong.

I don't know much about them.

That's what I'm saying. I can't think of any, but I feel like I'm wrong and just looking like an idiot.

Veklim
2013-03-21, 02:55 PM
Why not just roll an extra 1D4 with each HD? Then, every time you take the feat, you get an additional 1D4 per level..?