[3.5] Non-associated classes and CR

[Thurbane]

Just wondering people's general experiences and thoughts on the non associated class rules and monster CRs.

My thoughts are it's a good idea in principle, but can lead to some monsters that punch well above their CRs (although the CR system can be broken in places even without levelling up monsters, of course).


If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

[SilverLeaf167]

I think it typically makes sense and doesn't get too unbalanced, at least if you're relatively strict about which classes are associated. Most "bruiser" monsters really don't get too much use from a few levels in a caster class (even if they can cast the spells), just a couple minor tricks. They're better off using their normal tactics, and if they do insist on using their weak spells their CR might actually be lower.

The same logic applies vice versa as well: if a caster monster gets a few levels in fighter, more HP is pretty much the only thing it really benefits from. They're better off using their normal abilities.

"Sneaky" monsters might get a little more use out of unassociated class levels, but still not that much, and are relatively rare anyway.

I believe most Dragons and Outsiders, for example, should treat both martial and caster classes as associated, since they're pretty much natural gishes.

[Runestar]

I believe most Dragons and Outsiders, for example, should treat both martial and caster classes as associated, since they're pretty much natural gishes.

Except that in the case of true dragons, sorc lvs are invariably inferior to racial HD, which, in addition to improving innate spellcasting, also increase stats, NA and DCs of abilities. Basically, just compare the benefits of 3 dragon HD to 2 sorc lvs.

Outsiders tend to have a ton of SLAs, which would not be augmented by spellcasting classes.

These are the types of creatures who would not really benefit much from spellcasting boosts. They already have more special attacks than you will meaningfully use in a single encounter anyways, there is no point to stuffing them with yet more attacks.

IMO, this is one of those guidelines which must really be watched closely. Used properly, it can make for challenging spellcaster npcs who are not too fragile, and thus won't be one-shotted in the first round of combat (e.g.: yuan-ti wizard5 is cr6, frost giant wiz15 is cr17).

So long as your goal is to simply create more sturdy spellcasters (balance this by going easy on the defensive buffs), I don't see it being an issue. :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

This may depend on the dragon.

An adult white dragon with 18 HD, (caster level 1) when going to Great Wyrm at 36 HD, gains only 12 caster levels, but it gains 18 HD.

An adult white dragon with 18 sorcerer levels, would have a much higher caster level. On the other hand, since CR advances slower than HD, such a dragon would have a much higher CR than the "normal 36 HD dragon"

CR 28, compared to the CR 21 of the normal dragon.

[Runestar]

This may depend on the dragon.

An adult white dragon with 18 HD, (caster level 1) when going to Great Wyrm at 36 HD, gains only 12 caster levels, but it gains 18 HD.

An adult white dragon with 18 sorcerer levels, would have a much higher caster level. On the other hand, since CR advances slower than HD, such a dragon would have a much higher CR than the "normal 36 HD dragon"

CR 28, compared to the CR 21 of the normal dragon.

Correct, since when creating an npc to pit against the PCs, cr is really the only thing which matters. A cr28 white dragon would have the same spellcasting lv than your adult white dragon sorc18, but far more HD (and overall better stats by virtue of its dragon HD).

The main reason for going class lvs is when using a dragon as a recurring villain. Since they take so long to advance to the next age category, the most plausible way of making them tougher would be via class lvs or templates.

[hamishspence]

A CR 27 White Dragon could do that, in fact.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm

Advancing a CR 21 Great Wyrm White by 3 age categories, will give it +6 to caster level (bringing it to CL 19) and +6 to challenge rating.