Why is warshaper so good?

[ahenobarbi]

I took a look at tier system for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) and noticed War Shaper (with non-casting entry) is rated as +2 tier class.

Now it surely is nice for first 4 levels for non-casters, helps them be competent (+4 to Str and Con, extra natural attack, more range, fast healing 2 are all good things for fighty-types) but I don't see how it would bring them from tier 4 or 5 to tier 2 or 3...

Did I miss something?

[Greenish]

Did I miss something?You missed how the PrC tier system works. Tier 3 class with tier +2 PrC isn't (necessarily) tier 1.

The PrC tiers are relative to each other, with no connection to the class tier system. +2 just means it's better than +1, and +1 just means it's better than continuing in the entry class (but not necessarily a big enough improvement to pump the class tier of said combo).

[Vezok136]

what brings a warshaper, in my opinion, is its amazing multiclass potential. if you know what you are doing, you can make tremendous damage outputs by using the warshapers abilities to their full potential. My friend made a monk/ warshaper build that at tenth level can do 6d8+13 damage with each hit, and has four hits per round! O: a warshapers crit imunity is also a majour factor as well as fortification is a higher up armor enchantment that grants a CHANCE that crits wont work, whereas a warshaper is completely imune to them. plus their fast healing is an amzing ability on its own.

[Vaz]

The ability to gain unlimited Tentacles and attack with them all is right up there with Xoriat 10:1 round planar shepherd SLA/SU/Ex Wild Shaping and Perma Persist Incantatrix.

[HunterOfJello]

If you're playing a typical melee character and get access through Changeling, then Warshaper is an amazing class to gain access to.

You get an untyped +4 strength, untyped +4 constitution, critical damage immunity (!), stunning immunity, and a bonus +5ft reach (!!!). You also get all of that in only 3 levels and have the easy requirement of +4 BAB to enter into it.

The class' natural weapons class feature is quite abusable, but even if you ignore that feature, the PrC is still amazing compared to what you would be getting at levels 5-7 in a pre-ToB melee base class.

Warshaper is, without a doubt, one of the best melee PrCs in the game.

[ddude987]

It is so good because of the amazing benefits. An unlimited number of extra attacks, untyped ability bonuses, 5 ft reach, crit and stun immunity. On top of all that, if you enter with changeling then all of those things are practically always on as opposed to for example a Druid who only gets them while wild shaped. The damage output and survivability the class offers is huge.

[Essence_of_War]

Warshaper is, without a doubt, one of the best melee PrCs in the game.

This. You know it's insane because the King of Smack is willing to give up manifester levels to take at least two levels of it.

[Person_Man]

It's a solid option for any Tier 3 or lower melee build, because it makes them more Druid-like. But it's worth mentioning that unless your DM allows it's not that great of an option for a Druid (which is probably the "intended" entry) because it doesn't progress spells and doesn't progress Wild Shape. So a Druid 5/Warshaper 5 misses out on 4th and 5th level spells, can only Wildshape once per day for 5 hours (instead of 4 times per day for 10 hours each), doesn't gain the ability to Wildshape into Large creatures, can only take the forms of creatures with 5 hit dice or less.

Even the Tier 3 Wildshape Ranger might want to avoid it, because he can probably get better combat forms by taking Frozen Wildshape and/or Aberration Wildshape feats and just taking more levels of Wildshape Ranger to get access to higher hit dice creatures.

[ddude987]

It's a solid option for any Tier 3 or lower melee build, because it makes them more Druid-like. But it's worth mentioning that unless your DM allows it's not that great of an option for a Druid (which is probably the "intended" entry) because it doesn't progress spells and doesn't progress Wild Shape. So a Druid 5/Warshaper 5 misses out on 4th and 5th level spells, can only Wildshape once per day for 5 hours (instead of 4 times per day for 10 hours each), doesn't gain the ability to Wildshape into Large creatures, can only take the forms of creatures with 5 hit dice or less.

Even the Tier 3 Wildshape Ranger might want to avoid it, because he can probably get better combat forms by taking Frozen Wildshape and/or Aberration Wildshape feats and just taking more levels of Wildshape Ranger to get access to higher hit dice creatures.

Probably but I threw 3 levels of it into a mid op arcane gish build and it works wonders.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's a really nice dip for Landforged Walker since your Plant Shape uses character level instead of class level.

[Venger]

It is so good because of the amazing benefits. An unlimited number of extra attacks, untyped ability bonuses, 5 ft reach, crit and stun immunity. On top of all that, if you enter with changeling then all of those things are practically always on as opposed to for example a Druid who only gets them while wild shaped. The damage output and survivability the class offers is huge.

>implying there are druids who aren't wild shaped all the time

since people have mentioned immunity to crits/stunning, reach, +4 str/con, and fast healing, I feel the need to talk about the capstone

while the fifth level isn't usually taken due to entry methods (changeling, etc) if you do enter with wild shape ranger or as a way to round out a wild shape ranger momf, multimorph is straight up amazing, making the number of wild shapes you have pretty much entirely irrelevant

[Dusk Eclipse]

I personally like Quasilycanthrope template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) for Warshaper builds, for the low cost (especially if there is LA Buy off) of LA+1 you get Shapechanger subtype, at will Disguise self (quite limited; but it ensures you have your Warshaper class features all day long) and DR 10/Silver which at low levels helps a lot.

[Telonius]

On a Changeling, it's basically a PrC with free entry.

"You have +4 BAB? Great! Here, have some immunity to critical hits (therefore also sneak attacks) and stunning, an extra bite attack, an untyped +4 to strength and constitution, 5 feet of reach, and some fast healing if you really want it. Just make sure your nose is a little bigger than it usually is, and it'll always be on."

There are not all that many melee classes that give so much in 3-4 levels.

[MindSculptor]

Test, test, test.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Hengeyokai also get in without an LA. Crusader 4, Warshaper 4, then PrC(s) of your choice with a bit of time getting trip stuff works out hilariously. (Crusader is for easy Thicket of Blades access. Fighter 4 for melee weapon mastery works too, because of how many types of damage natural weapons can cover.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think a lot of people are basing their judgments on the interpretation that Warshaper gives you as many extra natural attacks as you want, which is neither clear RAW nor likely to fly with *any* DM.

Without that craziness, it's still a great PrC compared to the piles of garbage most other noncasting classes offer, but I think +2 is too much. I don't think any PrC that does not advance casting nor grant hyper progression casting (like Ur-Priest) is worthy of such a high ranking, though.

[Eisenfavl]

Clear RAW is that warshaper gives nigh-infinite attacks. That said, no-one would let you do it.

The PrC is -2, and would be lower if such a rating existed. Intended entry: druid. Giving up 5 casting levels is just retarded.

Obviously, if you put something on a class it isn't intended for, the rating changes. E.g. mystic theruging with Ur-Priest.

[sleepyphoenixx]

How do you get the idea that it's intended for druids?
Of course loosing CL sucks but even a 1 level dip already gets you crit- and stun immunity and morphic weapons.
A 2 level dip adds untyped +4con +4str.

That's not a bad tradeoff for a druid who wants to focus on wildshaping.
So you delay your spell progression by two levels. It's not like thats gonna make you weak.
If it was all about power nobody would play anything other than wizard, cleric, druid.

For a melee character that manages to qualify the class is awesome, pure and simple.

[Snowbluff]

The ability to gain unlimited Tentacles and attack with them all is right up there with Xoriat 10:1 round planar shepherd SLA/SU/Ex Wild Shaping and Perma Persist Incantatrix.

This requires a pretty harsh misreading of the text. The CF makes weapons bigger as a primary feature. If you do not have the weapon, you grow one. If you do, that weapons grows a size category.

Still really good having multiple colossal weapons for a single level.

[sleepyphoenixx]

This requires a pretty harsh misreading of the text. The CF makes weapons bigger as a primary feature. If you do not have the weapon, you grow one. If you do, that weapons grows a size category.

Still really good having multiple colossal weapons for a single level.

So if i have no claw attacks, i grow one? Usually you grow two.
And there's examples in the MM of Monsters with 8 tentacles + bite... :smallamused:

[Darius Kane]

So if i have no claw attacks, i grow one? Usually you grow two.
http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1350/01/1350019613998.jpg

[ahenobarbi]

http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1350/01/1350019613998.jpg

Thanks :smallbiggrin:

[T.G. Oskar]

I personally like Quasilycanthrope template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) for Warshaper builds, for the low cost (especially if there is LA Buy off) of LA+1 you get Shapechanger subtype, at will Disguise self (quite limited; but it ensures you have your Warshaper class features all day long) and DR 10/Silver which at low levels helps a lot.

Wow...nice catch, man!

Mix this with Shifter, which gets Shifting... You already have Shapechanger subtype, but this allows you to get another way to access the qualities from Warshaper, plus you get a very nifty amount of DR (10/silver? For reals!?) and it plays with the lycanthrope heritage of shifters ("I'm part werebear. I can make my skin tougher and I have lots of stamina, so yes, I think I'm part werebear...").

Problem is, Chauntea's from the Forgotten Realms, so you'll need to adapt the quasilycanthrope template into Eberron or import shifters into Faerun.

Oh yeah...that reminds me that shifters get in, because they have the shapechanger subtype. If you're willing to sacrifice a few ILs for Warshaper, you can get a pretty nasty Shifter Warblade/Warshaper/Bloodclaw Master going on, particularly since Bloodclaw Master advances shifting. A bit more, and you can tack on the quasilycanthrope heritage and still get the good maneuvers (Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Sudden Leap, Pouncing Charge, etc.), which makes for a pretty devastating character.

[ahenobarbi]

Also: everyone else thank you. I missed something quite important (immunities) but overall I got correct understanding of the PrC power (good for non-casters but not likely to move them to tier 2 or 3).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wow...nice catch, man!

Mix this with Shifter, which gets Shifting... You already have Shapechanger subtype, but this allows you to get another way to access the qualities from Warshaper, plus you get a very nifty amount of DR (10/silver? For reals!?) and it plays with the lycanthrope heritage of shifters ("I'm part werebear. I can make my skin tougher and I have lots of stamina, so yes, I think I'm part werebear...").

Problem is, Chauntea's from the Forgotten Realms, so you'll need to adapt the quasilycanthrope template into Eberron or import shifters into Faerun.

Oh yeah...that reminds me that shifters get in, because they have the shapechanger subtype. If you're willing to sacrifice a few ILs for Warshaper, you can get a pretty nasty Shifter Warblade/Warshaper/Bloodclaw Master going on, particularly since Bloodclaw Master advances shifting. A bit more, and you can tack on the quasilycanthrope heritage and still get the good maneuvers (Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Sudden Leap, Pouncing Charge, etc.), which makes for a pretty devastating character.

Apart from being in the same article I don't see much relation between Quasilycanthropes and Chauntea; but YMMV on that.

Sadly I don't think Shifter's can get this template since it mentions the Quasilycanthrope must be infected by a were-animal before the template emerges and Shifters are immune to Lycanthropy (though the mention of Lycanthropic blood does support shifters being able to become Quasilycanthropes).