Avatar: The Last Airbender [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Varen_Tai

2013-03-20, 07:20 AM

OK, so I know this won't earn me any brownie points in this crowd, but I've always detested anime, though I could never pin down why. It's the reason I resisted watching Avatar for so long, despite so many recommendations from so many people. When I finally buckled and watched it (just finished watching the finale yesterday, as a matter of fact), I loved it and figured out why I dislike anime at the same time.

Anime is all about exaggeration - all the facial features are exaggerated, eyes as drawn huge, the character traits are larger than life, everything is BIGGER AND MORE POWERFUL AND AWESOME AND HYPER-DRAMATIC blah blah blah. It grates on my nerves really badly. I prefer more emotionally grounded stories.

But Avatar? While there were certainly anime aspects, the characters were really grounded and complex, the storyline was believable, and it lacked that feel of OH MY GOSH THIS IS BIGGER THAN LIFE AND ISN'T IT SO AMAZING SQUEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!! Ugh, thank heavens.

I've always been a huge Babylon 5 fan because the storyline and characters were deep and profound and wonderful and believable, so now I am admitting in public what one my friends told a few years back - Avatar: The Last Airbender is the B5 of cartoons.

For anyone who hasn't watched it, even if you hate anime, it's wonderful. It takes a wee bit of getting used to (I was in the 2nd season before I really starting warming to it), but it's worth the investment. Go watch it.

BTW, it cracked me up that Toph was an nosepicker. Made me laugh. :smallbiggrin:

Devonix

2013-03-20, 07:29 AM

Varen_Tai

2013-03-20, 07:31 AM

Meh saying that you hate all Anime is like saying that you like all American Animation. It's a generalization about something that isn't one thing. Anime isn't really a genre and there are as many different types of it as there are different types of film.

That's true - perhaps a different way of saying it is that I have yet to find an anime series aside from Avatar that does not grate on my nerves for the reason I gave. Does that state it better? If anyone has any more anime recommendations along the lines of Avatar, I'm open.

Cikomyr

2013-03-20, 07:33 AM

In b4 an snobby anime fan tells you that "Avatar isn't an anime"

Varen_Tai

2013-03-20, 07:35 AM

In b4 an snobby anime fan tells you that "Avatar isn't an anime"

Heh. Is THAT why I liked it?:smallbiggrin:

It certainly has an anime art style, though I am admittedly not an anime expert.

Cikomyr

2013-03-20, 07:38 AM

Heh. Is THAT why I liked it?:smallbiggrin:

It certainly has an anime art style, though I am admittedly not an anime expert.

Oh. For me, Avatar is an anime, at least in drawing style. But some stuck-up anime fans will keep repeating adnauseam that an anime is made in Japan.

Brother Oni

2013-03-20, 07:43 AM

That's true - perhaps a different way of saying it is that I have yet to find an anime series aside from Avatar that does not grate on my nerves for the reason I gave. Does that state it better? If anyone has any more anime recommendations along the lines of Avatar, I'm open.

Do you want something along the more serious not-over-the-top plot lines and situations or just a generic fantasy setting with a healthy dose of realism?

There's a number of Studio Ghibili films that are along the more serious lines - 'Grave of the Fireflies' is probably the most serious (it's a WW2 drama) but Whisper of the Heart, Only Yesterday and From Up on Poppy Hill are essentially dramas in animated form, but without the soul crushing (or rage inducing in my case) element of Grave of the Fireflies.
Princess Mononoke has more fantasy elements if that's what you're after.

Ghost in the Shell (movies and TV series) and Macross Plus are both sci-fi series (one is cybperpunk, the other is more futuristic). They do have a couple 'Isn't this cool?' moments, but tend not to dwell on them and get on with the plot.

Other than that, I liked Gasaraki, but it's not as accessible as the others I've mentioned.

Oh. For me, Avatar is an anime, at least in drawing style. But some stuck-up anime fans will keep repeating adnauseam that an anime is made in Japan.

Those same fans must stick their fingers in the ears and go 'Lalala, I can't hear you' when you mention that most anime these says are outsourced to South Korea for the animation work. :smalltongue:

Cikomyr

2013-03-20, 07:57 AM

Those same fans must stick their fingers in the ears and go 'Lalala, I can't hear you' when you mention that most anime is actually outsourced to South Korea for the animation work.

Probably :smallbiggrin:

Avatar is a great Western-Anime.

Just like The Mysterious Cities of Gold was an amazing Japan-Cartoon

Socratov

2013-03-20, 08:01 AM

well, wether Avatar is an anime or not depends on the definition of anime used: if it is "story animated in Japan" then no. If you think anime is about a certain style used you can start defining a whole lot of styles as anime or not and then imo all hell break loosesince westerna animation and anime have traded styles and aspects in the past (most notably where powerpuff girls was based on anime concerning body porportions (western animation borrowing form anime), and where panty and stocking in turn borrowed form the style of powerpuff girls (anime borrowing back from western animation). So where would you define the line? Me? I define anime as being japanese animated comics (even though it gets subcontracted to south korea apparently). Therefore, IMO Avatar is not anime. But, YMMV.

But I liked the show a lot. Mostly becuase it succeeded in explaining genocide in a way that is not scarring to the mind, as well as several other adult conidered concepts. The follow-up: Legend of Korra succeded in explaining class struggle as thought of by Marx. I think that in both cases they did a very good job and deserve my admiration and respect.

Brother Oni

2013-03-20, 08:08 AM

Probably :smallbiggrin:

Avatar is a great Western-Anime.

Just like The Mysterious Cities of Gold was an amazing Japan-Cartoon

I think that one was a French/Japanese collaboration and yes, it was a great show. :smallbiggrin:

I quite liked Ulysses 31 (another collaboration). I rewatched it with my children a little while ago, but while the soundtrack is just as eerie as I remember, my memories of it firmly had nostalgia goggles in place.

You could always annoy them further with 'The Real Ghostbusters' as that was animated in Japan, thus fulfilling their criteria of 'anime is made in Japan'. :smalltongue:

So where would you define the line? Me? I define anime as being japanese animated comics (even though it gets subcontracted to south korea apparently). Therefore, IMO Avatar is not anime. But, YMMV.

It gets even further complicated as Korra was also animated in South Korea (Studio Mir according to Wikipedia), even though all the design work was done over in the west.

notthephonz

2013-03-20, 08:16 AM

Meh saying that you hate all Anime is like saying that you like all American Animation. It's a generalization about something that isn't one thing. Anime isn't really a genre and there are as many different types of it as there are different types of film.
Agreed. It might be easier for people to make recommendations if we knew what kind of genres you liked. As for Avatar: The Last Airbender, I wouldn't consider it an anime in the strictest sense, but it definitely borrows from the aesthetic and the creators were heavily influenced by the works of Hayao Miyazaki. If you're looking for something along the lines of Avatar, you might as well start with those (although those would be films rather than series). My personal favorites are Kiki's Delivery Service (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMi4HV9vGzg) and Princess Mononoke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5UTaVo0beY).

When I was in college, I couldn't ever get anyone else in the anime club to watch Avatar with me, but after we graduated I started seeing Facebook posts about how great it is and why didn't anyone ever recommend it to them. :smallsigh:

Anime is all about exaggeration - all the facial features are exaggerated, eyes as drawn huge, the character traits are larger than life, everything is BIGGER AND MORE POWERFUL AND AWESOME AND HYPER-DRAMATIC blah blah blah. It grates on my nerves really badly. I prefer more emotionally grounded stories.
Yes, anime is to some degree about exaggeration, but the same could be said about, say, comics (you read about superheroes, not just regular heroes) or just animation in general. The huge eyes, for example, were inspired by Disney cartoons.

Anyway, it seems like you're looking for something low-key and emotional, but not melodramatic. You might want to look into Kino's Journey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udmx3ioHWDI). Unlike my other recommendations, that one is a series, although it's rather short--only about thirteen episodes.

Cikomyr

2013-03-20, 08:32 AM

I quite liked Ulysses 31 (another collaboration). I rewatched it with my children a little while ago, but while the soundtrack is just as eerie as I remember, my memories of it firmly had nostalgia goggles in place.

That actually look pretty good. How did it stand up compared to Cities of gold?

There was a show I watched while I was young, the french name was "Les Aventuriers de l'Espace". It was a french dubbing of a weird Japanese show named "Spaceship Saggitarius", rings a bell?

Here is the french intro (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xwtob_les-aventuriers-de-l-espace-debut_school#.UUm571cj1IE) Pretty weird. BUT AWESOME.

Friv

2013-03-20, 08:55 AM

I would argue that saying that "Avatar is not anime" isn't being an anime snob, it's being a classification snob. Anime would be proud to have Avatar.

But my personal opinion has always been that anime isn't primarily about the animation style, it's about the cultural assumptions and grounding that a series is based in. Anime is created in Japan, and uses Japanese cultural assumptions as its baseline. You could create an anime without being Japanese, but you would be doing so by carefully studying and mimicking Japanese cultural traits. This is the same way that, say, American and Hong Kong martial arts movies end up not generally feeling very similar, despite having many similarities in production and style; their plotting and characters are very different. You can get a good American martial arts movie in Hong Kong, and vice versa, but it's not as common.

Avatar, while it uses a visual style that is anime, is rooted in American cultural assumptions and baselines. Therefore, it doesn't read very similarly to anime.

Which might be why you like it - it could be that Japanese cultural traditions just don't interest you when on screen.

Varen_Tai

2013-03-20, 08:57 AM

Agreed. It might be easier for people to make recommendations if we knew what kind of genres you liked.

I could say I liked Avatar because it reminded me of Babylon 5. That might be a good starting point. Any other animations have similar depth to the story, characters that are grounded emotionally, and some additional spiritual/philosophical/moral underpinnings (Uncle Iiro and Prince Zuko's story was all about this) would be welcome.

Does that help? :smallsmile:

Yes, anime is to some degree about exaggeration, but the same could be said about, say, comics (you read about superheroes, not just regular heroes) or just animation in general. The huge eyes, for example, were inspired by Disney cartoons.

That's a good point, though one I had considered already - I can't quite pin it down, and maybe you can help. I watch the Justice League cartoon, which certainly has its share of planet destroying power floating around, but it doesn't feel anywhere near over the top like typical anime does. What about anime feels more exaggerated than Justice League? Thoughts?

EDIT:
Which might be why you like it - it could be that Japanese cultural traditions just don't interest you when on screen.

That might be it. I'll kick that around and see if it seems to fit.

notthephonz

2013-03-20, 09:51 AM

I would argue that saying that "Avatar is not anime" isn't being an anime snob, it's being a classification snob. Anime would be proud to have Avatar.
I would agree with this.

But my personal opinion has always been that anime isn't primarily about the animation style, it's about the cultural assumptions and grounding that a series is based in. Anime is created in Japan, and uses Japanese cultural assumptions as its baseline.
Also a good point. A lot of cultural differences come to light in particular when Japanese products are localized for American audiences.

You could create an anime without being Japanese, but you would be doing so by carefully studying and mimicking Japanese cultural traits. This is the same way that, say, American and Hong Kong martial arts movies end up not generally feeling very similar, despite having many similarities in production and style; their plotting and characters are very different. You can get a good American martial arts movie in Hong Kong, and vice versa, but it's not as common.

Avatar, while it uses a visual style that is anime, is rooted in American cultural assumptions and baselines. Therefore, it doesn't read very similarly to anime.

Which might be why you like it - it could be that Japanese cultural traditions just don't interest you when on screen.
Very interesting perspective. I know Avatar had consultants to make sure things related to visual style were authentic to their respective Asian counterparts--for example, Katara's "hair loopies" are an authentic Inuit hairstyle, and the bending disciplines are based on real-life martial arts disciplines--but I hadn't thought to consider the show with respect to Asian cultural assumptions. I'd be interested if you could explain this a bit more in-depth.

I could say I liked Avatar because it reminded me of Babylon 5. That might be a good starting point. Any other animations have similar depth to the story, characters that are grounded emotionally, and some additional spiritual/philosophical/moral underpinnings (Uncle Iiro and Prince Zuko's story was all about this) would be welcome.

Does that help? :smallsmile:
Sorry. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with Babylon 5 at all. (I keep hearing about it, but I wonder if I'm confusing it with Battlestar Galactica? Don't know anything about that series either.)

But as for spiritual/philosophical/moral underpinnings, anime can have plenty of that, which is one reason Devonix's point about anime not being a genre is so important. There's so much variety out there that I'm sure you'll be able to find something you'd be interested in. Ghost in the Shell, for example, presents questions about the nature of artificial intelligence and what it means to be human. Here's a clip of Siskel and Ebert discussing it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il2l3hEEtdk). They even bring up Friv's point about differences between Japanese and American culture.

That's a good point, though one I had considered already - I can't quite pin it down, and maybe you can help. I watch the Justice League cartoon, which certainly has its share of planet destroying power floating around, but it doesn't feel anywhere near over the top like typical anime does. What about anime feels more exaggerated than Justice League? Thoughts?
I do like the Justice League cartoon a lot. :smallsmile: I can't quite pin down the difference either; it might help if you gave examples of anime you don't like. To hazard a guess, I suppose that while Justice League and Avatar both have "planet destroying power," the focus is less on that and more on character development. It's the same reason Hawkgirl is more interesting than Superman even though she's much less powerful.

BRC

2013-03-20, 10:22 AM

I think that "Anime is about Exaggeration" is at least in part a result of a target audience. It seems like what you were describing was mainly the big-name Shonen anime like Nartuo which, IIRC, was designed for young boys.

A nice American equivalent would be GI Joe.

That said, there are lots of Anime out there that don't fall into that pattern. Cowboy Bebop and Ghost in the Shell both come to mind. I'm also a big fan of Durarara and Baccanno, though I'm not sure how much you would enjoy those. Baccanno is especially hard to get into.

It basically depends on your tolerance for a show jumping up and down shouting "Look at how awesome this thing is!". There are plenty of shows out there that feature larger-than-life characters with astounding capabilities that are still grounded enough to not have every character defined by their place on the scale of "How hard can you punch".
Basically, plenty of shows that have room for a Sokka.

Friv

2013-03-20, 11:02 AM

Very interesting perspective. I know Avatar had consultants to make sure things related to visual style were authentic to their respective Asian counterparts--for example, Katara's "hair loopies" are an authentic Inuit hairstyle, and the bending disciplines are based on real-life martial arts disciplines--but I hadn't thought to consider the show with respect to Asian cultural assumptions. I'd be interested if you could explain this a bit more in-depth.

I can to a point!

I should preface this by saying that my exposure to Japanese culture is, frankly, kind of limited and mostly second-hand. While I know several people who have lived in Japan and have talked to them about it, talking about a culture and experiencing it are very different things. So my specifics could be wrong. Also, the nature of tropes is such that they are often undermined or deliberately subverted in a variety of ways.

But generality-wise, let me use one example: Avatar did a very good job with the aesthetics and styles of various cultures, and was able to give them a degree of uniqueness that fit the style of a children's cartoon. The four cultures were distinct and interesting.

But ultimately, they followed a lot of American cultural beliefs. For example, whenever the Gaang ran into a village, town, or entire nation that was running on long-held traditions, they didn't hesitate to challenge those traditions if they were in the way, and those traditions were often (not always) shown to be false or foolish. Hidebound bureaucracies, refusal to consider new options, and "because this has always been done" were very common reasons for people to stand in their way, and they kept having to fight against that to restore the world's balance. Aang ultimately stood against all of his prior selves because of his personal beliefs, even! And he was right! Katara met a venerable old man who refused to teach her because she was reaching above herself, and she showed spirit and determination and changed his mind by confronting his traditions head-on. Toph refuses to be the princess that her parents want, and she is rewarded by becoming the greatest metalbender. She returns to society and dominates it, founding an academy and a police force.

This is very American, and I tend to approve of it because I was raised Canadian and that's part of my cultural makeup too.

In Japan, that's a counter-culture expression. The characters who always challenge tradition and authority are societal outcasts, not societal stalwarts. They are the ones who are picked on, live on the fringes, because they refuse to fit in to what society demands of them. Usually, their arc involves changing society or finding a society that will agree with their beliefs, because of how important lining up with your society tends to be in Japanese culture. The social outcast doesn't return to ordinary life with his new knowledge, he stands aside from it, and characters who should be social stalwarts but display eccentric or non-usual behaviour are typically played for laughs.

(Interestingly, they are also often shonen protagonists. Bleach, One Piece, Naruto, etc - these heroes do the Determination and Go Your Own Way, and all of them are outcasts who aren't really part of the general population. If an average person gets sucked into a magical world, he's almost never the Determinator.)

Zuko's arc is actually a more traditional anime arc than that of the other characters, which fits since the Fire Nation is a more traditionally Japanese society. He is struggling with the balance between his societal obligations and his personal beliefs, he is longing for the importance of family and torn over whether to stand with his father or turn away. His honor and name are important to him, and when he loses that for good he descends into a very dark place; he pulls out briefly when he is given a new home in Ba Sing Se, and then falls again when it is taken from him. Being cut loose from society is very, very bad for him, to a degree that doesn't affect the other characters.

I just finished watching a very good anime called Mushi-shi, which is a slow, thoughtful fairy-tale style piece about a wandering doctor who cures spirit infections caused by people who don't understand the natural order. Because it was fairy-tale styled, a lot of the moral messages were closer to the surface: Support your community. Never forget your roots. Don't put your own needs above the needs of the people around you. The whole is always more important than the sum of its parts. Don't assume that you know better than what tradition says, and don't let emotion color your knowledge. Be stalwart, and serene.

Another example is the rival. In Western traditions, if you have a major rival, he is ultimately your enemy. He may respect you, but you are trying to defeat and destroy each other, because what matters is being on top. If you get beyond that, your rival stops being your rival and becomes your friend. Two friends can have a serious rivalry, but that's generally presented as a problem that they have to overcome. In Japanese traditions, that's an advantage to both sides. Rivals push each other to excel, and can be extremely close family who are always trying to one-up each other, because what matters is constantly working to improve.

Japan is a very conservative culture, status-driven and stoic. It has adapted a lot of American traditions, and of course a lot of stories are pretty universal so a lot of the tropes are too, but it's important to remember that conservatism and reactions to it are at the core of a lot of anime. American stories tend to be driven by the struggle between ambition and charity; we're told to struggle as hard as possible for personal advancement, but also to help each other out and give selflessly. Japanese stories are more likely to be about the struggle between collectivism and individuality.

CarpeGuitarrem

2013-03-20, 11:37 AM

On that note, the OP might actually enjoy Mushi-Shi, as regards pacing. Entirely devoid of the over-the-top-ridiculous-shounen-crazy. Very methodical and tonally distinct.

(Whilst I'd love to recommend Baccano!...at this stage, the OP might find it over the top. It's more or less Tarantino meets anime in the 1920s, except without literal Tarantino. Definitely recommending Bebop, though. Much more grounded than typical shounen.)

(Secondary thought: what I have slowly come to like about the shounen I admire, such as TTGL and Trigun, is how it has those wacko-zany moments, but it then turns everything on its head and injects something very, very serious and meaningful into the middle of it. And you realize that yes, this is a big deal for these characters.)

But yeah--Avatar takes some stylings that are like anime, but is ultimately West-zested. Still an awesome show, and the animation itself is great.

Dr.Epic

2013-03-20, 11:54 AM

Anime is all about exaggeration - all the facial features are exaggerated, eyes as drawn huge, the character traits are larger than life, everything is BIGGER AND MORE POWERFUL AND AWESOME AND HYPER-DRAMATIC blah blah blah. It grates on my nerves really badly. I prefer more emotionally grounded stories.

:smallconfused:

Have you ever seen an American cartoon before? Because all those traits apply to cartoons made in the West.

Friv

2013-03-20, 12:05 PM

On that note, the OP might actually enjoy Mushi-Shi, as regards pacing. Entirely devoid of the over-the-top-ridiculous-shounen-crazy. Very methodical and tonally distinct.

At the very least, it would be an excellent experiment into what aspects of anime he dislikes; if it turns out to be the big stuff, it'll go great, if it turns out to be the cultural background he'll probably turn it off halfway through the first episode.

And then we'll know!

CarpeGuitarrem

2013-03-20, 12:16 PM

And then we'll know!
And knowing is half the battle!

Eldan

2013-03-20, 12:46 PM

As a big disliker of much of the overly-exaggerated in Japanese media (I actually tend to like a lot of over-exaggerated american stuff), I can perhaps give a few recommendations I liked.

Fantasy:
Mushi-shi, Seirei no Moribito, Spice and Wolf, Princess Mononoke, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind

Sci-fi/Action:
Ghost in the shell, Cowboy Bebop, Serial experiment Lain, Noir, Ergo Proxy, Wolf's Rain

All relatively calm. There's a few very fast-paced exaggerated shows that I like, too, but I won't recommend them here.

Edit: Not sure I should be taken as a measurement here. I made it only half an episode into Avatar, and even that was hard.

Varen_Tai

2013-03-20, 02:41 PM

:smallconfused:

Have you ever seen an American cartoon before? Because all those traits apply to cartoons made in the West.

I know, which is why I made the comparison to the Justice League. Something about the type of exaggeration done in typical anime rubs me the wrong way, whereas exaggeration in western animation does not.

Go figure, right?

I think that "Anime is about Exaggeration" is at least in part a result of a target audience. It seems like what you were describing was mainly the big-name Shonen anime like Nartuo which, IIRC, was designed for young boys.

Possible! I've seen only pieces of Naruto and DragonBall Z and both made me want to gouge my eyes out after 10 minutes.

That said, there are lots of Anime out there that don't fall into that pattern. Cowboy Bebop and Ghost in the Shell both come to mind. I'm also a big fan of Durarara and Baccanno, though I'm not sure how much you would enjoy those. Baccanno is especially hard to get into.

I'm strictly a PG and PG-13-only-if-it's-not-for-sex-stuff kind of guy. I've heard Ghost in the Shell was great, but isn't it also rated R? Well done clean anime seems to be hard to find. Cowboy Bebop doesn't strike me as an emotionally believable with solid complex characters and a moral underpinning kind of show, but I could be wrong.

As a big disliker of much of the overly-exaggerated in Japanese media (I actually tend to like a lot of over-exaggerated american stuff), I can perhaps give a few recommendations I liked.

Fantasy:
Mushi-shi, Seirei no Moribito, Spice and Wolf, Princess Mononoke, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind

Sci-fi/Action:
Ghost in the shell, Cowboy Bebop, Serial experiment Lain, Noir, Ergo Proxy, Wolf's Rain

How many of those fit the Clean requirement?

All relatively calm. There's a few very fast-paced exaggerated shows that I like, too, but I won't recommend them here.

Calm? Who said anything about calm? Have you SEEN Justice League? :smallwink:

No, "emotionally grounded" is very different from "calm". And Avatar isn't really "calm" either.

Edit: Not sure I should be taken as a measurement here. I made it only half an episode into Avatar, and even that was hard.

Hey, it took me a whole season - I wasn't impressed half an episode into it, either.

As a general note - I enjoyed Spirited Away, sort of. I didn't love it, I didn't hate it, it wasn't a bad way to spend 90 minutes or so, but I won't deliberately seek out that kind of thing. Does that help to pin things down?

Friv

2013-03-20, 02:50 PM

How many of those fit the Clean requirement?

Mushishi is pretty clean as a rule, although I wouldn't show it to children because they would get freaked the hell out and refuse to ever sleep again after some episodes.

Hey, the first episode is on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdhR5XZNXbs&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca%2F). Legally and everything.

For the others, of the ones that I've seen:

Cowboy Bebop is basically clean; it teases and acts fanservicey fairly often, especially for one character in particular, but stays PG-13 in doing so and keeps its violence usually low-key (with a few exceptions). Ditto for Noir, which actually has a really interesting thing where they never use blood for general actions, only for moments of intense emotion (which is interesting mainly because Noir is about two people who kill people for a living.)

Baccano gets a little dirtier, and a lot bloodier.

Mononoke is rated PG-13, and that's mainly for the violence.

CarpeGuitarrem

2013-03-20, 02:52 PM

I'm strictly a PG and PG-13-only-if-it's-not-for-sex-stuff kind of guy. I've heard Ghost in the Shell was great, but isn't it also rated R? Well done clean anime seems to be hard to find. Cowboy Bebop doesn't strike me as an emotionally believable with solid complex characters and a moral underpinning kind of show, but I could be wrong.
Oh, it definitely is. The "action bounty hunter" schtick is only a small portion of it. The real meat is about how the main characters come to terms with their pasts. It's a rather reflective show in that regard.

How many of those fit the Clean requirement?
Of the ones I've seen...

Bebop has a main character (Faye) who dresses in booty shorts and a scant top (although she's an incredibly solid character with a really interesting backstory), but beyond that (and a bit character who's a TV announcer) and a few flashback scenes that are rather circumspect, I don't recall much sexual content. Going off of previous threads, certainly nothing worse than Dresden, in my mind.

Mushi-shi is totally clean.

So far, Serial Experiments Lain has been clean, and I don't expect that to change.

Noir has a couple of bath scenes in one of the last episodes, one of which has extended rear nudity and mild sexual subtext.

Oh hey, ninja'd! I'd say that Baccano! is (as a rule) clean, with one or two moments which involve a male character and a female character colliding in, ah, an unfortunate manner. But those're one-offs and very brief. I think it certainly fits your criteria from the fiction thread. On the other hand, it is very, very bloody.

Eldan

2013-03-20, 03:21 PM

Should all be pretty clean with some fan service here and there, but nothing too bad.

Avatar... was it me or were the voice actors just totally terrible? I just couldn't listen to that.

Actually, that's a problem I get all the time with American cartoons. I don't think I ever heard one where I didn't think the voices weren't totally grating somehow.

Hiro Protagonest

2013-03-20, 03:22 PM

Possible! I've seen only pieces of Naruto and DragonBall Z and both made me want to gouge my eyes out after 10 minutes.

...

Yeahhhhh... if you want to see an example of that genre done right, read (not watch, the anime has a ton of filler) One Piece. It's still shonen, no doubt about that, but it's better. In context, everything makes sense, although Luffy's attitude does require some "he was always that way" explanation, and Zoro is kinda one-dimensional (he's pretty much the minmaxed guy, if this were a tabletop RPG. Lots of flaws, super strong, not much else. Still, the fact that there's this Marine swordsman who looks just like the dead girl behind his motive for developing the three-sword style is enough for interesting interactions).

Eldan

2013-03-20, 03:25 PM

Naruto and Dragonball Z.... that's like saying that American cartoons can't be engaging after having seen one Daffy Duck short and three minutes of family guy.

BRC

2013-03-20, 03:27 PM

Possible! I've seen only pieces of Naruto and DragonBall Z and both made me want to gouge my eyes out after 10 minutes.

Saying you don't like Anime after only watching Naruto and DBZ is like saying you don't like Movies after only watching a pair of Michael Bay films.

Now, as for your "Clean" Requirement.
Anime, like Comic Books, tends to lean more towards Fanservice than actual sex. Take Ghost in the Shell (S.A.C at least, can't speak for the movies) for example, IIRC it's generally not much more explicit than your average american Cop Show. The characters investigate crimes, discuss philosophy, hack people's brains, talk about J.D. Salinger, bring down corrupt politicians, and examine complex social phenomena. This is a world where skilled hackers, well-connected bureaucrats, and a fully organic Detective with good instincts and experience can be just as vital as trained combat cyborgs and sentient tanks. They're led by The Major who is an intelligent investigator and deadly combatant.
She also dresses like this

http://api.ning.com/files/bs72mnqDizVQ71jPlTa085ENLbcbg2yY3fDdZuvkRJoa3wK97l s3SfGytjy6CpPl/GhostintheShellStandAloneComplex2.jpg
Now here's the thing, generally speaking the show doesn't go in for shock value or sex appeal. The Major is probably the most all-around capable character on the show.
She just doesn't wear pants.

So yeah, kind of like cyborg-soldier-detective Wonder Woman.

CarpeGuitarrem

2013-03-20, 03:28 PM

...

Yeahhhhh... if you want to see an example of that genre done right, read (not watch, the anime has a ton of filler) One Piece. It's still shonen, no doubt about that, but it's better.

Also, read it from start to finish. Without context, stuff WILL seem hyper-dramatic and such.
Is One Piece really that good? (I suppose this is a side discussion, but...) I admit, I sorta dismissed it offhand as "one of those shounen series that goes on and on and on and never ends". I'd been holding FMA:B and Trigun up on my imaginary mantlepiece as exemplary shounen (well, and then TTGL for its own special reasons).

BRC

2013-03-20, 03:32 PM

Is One Piece really that good? (I suppose this is a side discussion, but...) I admit, I sorta dismissed it offhand as "one of those shounen series that goes on and on and on and never ends". I'd been holding FMA:B and Trigun up on my imaginary mantlepiece as exemplary shounen (well, and then TTGL for its own special reasons).

Oh yeah, forgot to mention Full Metal Alchemist, which sounds right up your alley.
I'm actually pretty fond of the original Anime (Which deviates pretty heavily from the Manga), since it's overall narrative is a good deal tidier than Brotherhood (A second Anime based more directly off the Manga), but either or both is worth checking out.

Hiro Protagonest

2013-03-20, 03:35 PM

Is One Piece really that good? (I suppose this is a side discussion, but...) I admit, I sorta dismissed it offhand as "one of those shounen series that goes on and on and on and never ends". I'd been holding FMA:B and Trigun up on my imaginary mantlepiece as exemplary shounen (well, and then TTGL for its own special reasons).

One Piece is the only example of a good show that's super-long. Naruto, Bleach, and DBZ are all bad. Plus, it's the only manga I've read from start to... well, wherever it was when I stopped reading it. The fact that I read over seven hundred chapters should speak to the quality, and I have tried reading Naruto and Bleach.

It's not the only good shonen though. FMA, FMA: B, Fist of the North Star, Shaman King, etc.

Brother Oni

2013-03-20, 03:38 PM

That actually look pretty good. How did it stand up compared to Cities of gold?

Spoilered for off topic:

It's much shorter and much more action orientated than MCoG and not as good in my opinion.

Some episodes tried to do too much in too little a time, so their resolution feels more contrived.

That said, they're fairly faithful to the Greek myths they're based on and it doesn't shy away from not having a happy ending for everybody involved (the episode with Sisyphus for example), which is unusual for a children's show.

There are some very creepy bits in it that I didn't remember from the first time round: there's a scene where the protagonists find some petrified people who were all running away from something when they were turned into stone. Even though they're completely motionless statues, all their shadows are still running on the spot...

If you haven't seen it, it's worth watching. Just set your expectations from 'The Animated Odyssey' to 'children's show loosely inspired by The Odyssey' and you'll be fine.

So far, Serial Experiments Lain has been clean, and I don't expect that to change.

It stays clean throughout the entire series, although it does get a bit heavy philosophically.

I'm strictly a PG and PG-13-only-if-it's-not-for-sex-stuff kind of guy. I've heard Ghost in the Shell was great, but isn't it also rated R? Well done clean anime seems to be hard to find.

The first movie is rated R for some reason (it's a 15 over here), but the first TV series (Stand Alone Complex) was rated 13UP (whatever that is) by the MPAA.

The problem is that due to various cultural differences, what's suitable for young teens in Japan, isn't acceptable for the same age bracket in the US.

If you're specifically after clean anime by western standards, well done and not too culturally alien, you're probably limited to certain Studio Ghibili films. Princess Mononoke is the most violent they get and that's rated PG-13 as Friv said.

Deepbluediver

2013-03-20, 04:03 PM

@OP

If you like "realistic" stuff, then there are definitely anime like that, they are just a little harder to find. Especially since even many of action/drama/horror anime feel the need to break up every episode with at least one "comedy" moment when everyone breaks character and/or the laws of physics.
I'm certain that if you want to ask about any particular anime, SOMEONE will be able to offer an opinion/summary of it.

I would recomend you try my personal favorite, Twelve Kingdoms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Kingdoms). The basical plot is that three highschool students get sucked into an alternate-universe medieval Japan (effectively), which sounds like a terribly-cliched start to something shoujo/shounen-like but it never really gets all that fantastical. There are monsters and magical creatures, but 99% of the main characters are plain old humans, and the focus of the series is about responsibility, politics, human nature, & the horrors of war, etc, with just enough monster-fighting to remind you that they occasionally exist.

The monsters and magic really come off as more of a force of nature, something that just happens, rather than what drives the plot. It does drag on a little in the middle, but overall they stick with the story, rather than resorting to some cheap tricks.

From what you described, it's got even even less of what you don't like than Avatar.

Oh. For me, Avatar is an anime, at least in drawing style. But some stuck-up anime fans will keep repeating adnauseam that an anime is made in Japan.

Technically, the only real champagne is made in this one province, in France, and everything else is just sparkling white wine. But for the sake of simplicity, we generalize. Demanding that something is "not anime" because it's not made in Japan relies on you defining all anime as "made in japan" which isn't something that everyone agrees on. Most people who aren't being snobbish and pointlessly nerdy about it won't care.

Anyone who insists they're right...well, just give them all the consideration you'd give any wine conesure (i.e., next to none...unless you really like wine).

Edit: Also, for some stuff the manga is better than the anime. For example, I read Bleach until the plots-twists started to get overly repetetive, and I prefer the art style in Naruto manga over the that anime. Also also, there are at least as many manga in more genres than anime, because it's cheaper and easier to produce, and you don't need to worry about selling T-shirts and key-chains to fund it.

Gnome Alone

2013-03-20, 04:05 PM

Have you ever seen an American cartoon before? Because all those traits apply to cartoons made in the West.

The ways most things in a genre are awful seem more awful if you're not accustomed to that genre's conventions.

Dr.Epic

2013-03-20, 04:41 PM

One Piece is the only example of a good show that's super-long. Naruto, Bleach, and DBZ are all bad.

Okay, I'll give you Bleach. I'll give you Bleach in a heart beat. Naruto I haven't seen enough of...but how can you hate the Dragon Ball Z? You are a male geek who grew up in the 90s/early 2000s right? You sure you aren't confusing DBZ with DBGT?

Sith_Happens

2013-03-20, 04:48 PM

Naruto, Bleach, and DBZ are all bad.

Eh, people like giving Naruto a much worse rap than it really deserves. Sure the story's nothing special, but it's reasonably intelligent and well put-together, certainly more so than Bleach or DBZ, or for that matter most American action films. Most of the characters likewise get explored enough to keep from being entirely one-dimensional.

Sure, I wouldn't call it that great overall (at least for most of the more strict definitions of "good"), but it's generally competent and I certainly enjoy watching it. As an action series, which is what it is at the end of he day, the only major fault IMO is the pacing sometimes gets a bit wonky.

lord_khaine

2013-03-20, 05:05 PM

Fullmetal Alchemist has been mentioned a couple of times, and i will repeat it as well, because it really is that good.

Both another really good serie that most people dont know about, is Wakfu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2JrWJfdoqk

There is a link here to a clip on youtube, and i would defently recomend people to give it a chance.

GloatingSwine

2013-03-20, 05:15 PM

In b4 an snobby anime fan tells you that "Avatar isn't an anime"

Can I be a snobby anime fan and tell him he has a super-limited frame of reference and should try watching more types of shows not just the ones made for eight to thirteen year old boys?

I mean the problem may not actually be the entire fictional output of Japan, it might be the effort the audience has put into finding individual things that are to their tastes.

Hiro Protagonest

2013-03-20, 05:19 PM

Okay, I'll give you Bleach. I'll give you Bleach in a heart beat. Naruto I haven't seen enough of...but how can you hate the Dragon Ball Z?

Because it's flawed. Heavily.

I wouldn't say Naruto and DBZ are Twilight bad, but they're a bit worse than "decent".

HamHam

2013-03-20, 06:03 PM

Avatar is pretty much a shounen adventure show. The only thing it really has going for it is that it is less affected by the inbred formulaics of actual shounen, but really there is plenty of actual anime being made that manage to break the mold one way or another. Magi (http://www.crunchyroll.com/magi/episode-1-aladdin-and-alibaba-612237) for example is shaping up real well.

zolga

2013-03-20, 06:09 PM

code geass
and death note

geass does feature a really big amount of fan service

but its worth it

also its extremely weird death note hasnt been mentioned already

Prime32

2013-03-20, 07:05 PM

Because it's flawed. Heavily.

I wouldn't say Naruto and DBZ are Twilight bad, but they're a bit worse than "decent".DBZ looks worse because most modern shonen copy it so much (count the number of protagonists who are cheerful idiots with spiky hair), so the stuff it invented isn't as obvious or novel. Before that, shonen mostly copied Fist of the North Star (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Manga/FistOfTheNorthStar). DBZ was originally known for parodying conventions of the time.

Also, the anime drags things out far more than the manga.

CarpeGuitarrem

2013-03-20, 07:28 PM

Back on the topic of Avatar--one thing which really impressed me was the solid job done on the animation itself. I've seen a lot of the "cheap trick" techniques used to cover for lower budgets; I'm really glad that TLA (and particularly Korra) got the benefit of a crackerjack animation team.

Dr.Epic

2013-03-20, 10:54 PM

Because it's flawed. Heavily.

I wouldn't say Naruto and DBZ are Twilight bad, but they're a bit worse than "decent".

DBZ is about two over the top characters beating the crap out of each other with magic space kung fu and laser beams/balls. And it does that well. What more can you possibly want?

Also, how can you hate something that would eventually inspire Ghost Nappa?!?!

Socratov

2013-03-21, 02:59 AM

Cikomyr

2013-03-21, 04:06 AM

code geass
and death note

geass does feature a really big amount of fan service

but its worth it

also its extremely weird death note hasnt been mentioned already

Indeed. All these gratuitous shots... just look at them..

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/2254/snap2013021200h11m42s12.png

To this day, I cannot eat a Pizza Hut pizza without getting aroused for a chess game

endoperez

2013-03-21, 04:10 AM

speaking of shonen done right I'd like to second Shaman King, it is, until now, the only anime where the main character

actually loses and achieves his goal through something other then brute force determination...

Are you referring to the horrible ending? I disliked the ending so much it made me decide to stop watching any anime series longer than about 50 episodes. 25 is preferred unless the series has glowing reviews. A bad ending, or a non-ending, can ruin an otherwise good series.

Eldan

2013-03-21, 04:29 AM

Cikomyr

2013-03-21, 05:09 AM

I'm pretty sure that code Geass would be exactly the thing that the OP would least enjoy.

Also, a series really doesn't have to be long to have an ending that ruins it all. Look at Evangelion. At least they had End of Evangelion to salvage it.

Code Geass was, indeed, awesome. If you forget the occasional silly "monster in the basement" plotline (except with a hot chick instead of a monster)

MLai

2013-03-21, 06:44 AM

I'm in the mood to making 2 unconventional recommendations, and neither are boys' "shonen" (in our definition, i.e. boys action adventure):

Darker Than Black
Quite clean (people do die, and there's blood, but it's not gory), but not catered to kids. Why? Because it's the anime equivalent to hard-boiled noir. That's the first series.
Before watching the sequel series, you need to watch the 5-eps OAVs.
The best way for me to describe the sequel series would be The Professional + Firestarter. If you liked those movies you should like it.

Hikaru No Go
A long series about a young Go prodigy coming of age and moving up in the sport. It's a classic "sports series", and follows the traditions of that uniquely Japanese manga trope. I. Loved. This. Series. And I have not a single clue how to play Go.
This is a fantastic series for younger viewers. It's 100% clean. The protag is a schoolkid who gradually grows up. It's always upbeat and there's no pointless melodrama. It's inspirational and subliminally encourages kids to pick up a sport or club activity, even if it's not Go.

Very interesting perspective. I know Avatar had consultants to make sure things related to visual style were authentic to their respective Asian counterparts--for example, Katara's "hair loopies" are an authentic Inuit hairstyle, and the bending disciplines are based on real-life martial arts disciplines--but I hadn't thought to consider the show with respect to Asian cultural assumptions. I'd be interested if you could explain this a bit more in-depth.
For example, if this was a cartoon targetting Asian audiences, Aang being depicted as a Dalai Lama analogue (or at least being a young brother in a monastery) but then allowed to romance a girl would have raised a ****storm. At the very least the cartoon would have explicitly explained that he quit being a monk and gave up the "Air Monk" lifestyle, philosophy, and title! Then he truly would have been the Last Airbender, and he would have gotten a LOT of hate from Asian audiences for his dereliction of duty and betrayal to his ancestors. He probably would have had to give up his Avatar-hood as well, as he'd be seen as no longer holy. The idea that you can romance and still retain full spirituality is purely Protestant, or atheist/ agnostic.

If you haven't seen it, it's worth watching. Just set your expectations from 'The Animated Odyssey' to 'children's show loosely inspired by The Odyssey' and you'll be fine.
It also has the absolute catchiest intro song for an English cartoon I've ever heard. I sing this in the shower.

Brother Oni

2013-03-21, 07:30 AM

Since it was bugging me why the first Ghost in the Shell movie picked up a R rating, a quick check on the MPAA website indicates it was never submitted for review, so the publishers apparently gave it their own rating.

Thinking about the movie, it's most certainly harder than PG-13, but given that the main character wears a skin tight thermoptic camouflage suit, it probably pushes it into R territory with my understanding of American cultural values.
This is ignoring the fact that she's a full body cyborg and getting excited about her showing some skin is akin to getting excited about seeing a naked female mannequin.

As an aside, is it me, or does the MPAA rating system seem a little screwed up?
There's nothing between PG-13 and R, which covers the ages of 13 to 17, a time where most people make the biggest developments in maturity and character.

Hikaru No Go

The only issue with Hikaru no Go is that it's a rather long series, not to mention fairly culturally alien, neither of which appears to suit the OP very well.

As for not knowing how to play Go, watch enough of it (as well as the live action tutorials at the end of episodes) and you'll soon pick it up. :smallbiggrin:

It also has the absolute catchiest intro song for an English cartoon I've ever heard. I sing this in the shower.

I think Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdDx-l0JItY) would come a close second though. :smalltongue:

Eldan

2013-03-21, 07:32 AM

You don't have a 16+ rating in America?

Brother Oni

2013-03-21, 07:38 AM

You don't have a 16+ rating in America?

Apparently not, according to the MPAA website (http://www.mpaa.org/ratings/what-each-rating-means) and Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Association_of_America_film_rating_ system).

The R rating has the get-out clause of 'no-one under 17 without a parent or adult guardian', while NC-17 is the more restrictive 'no-one under 17'.
As I understand it, NC-17 is almost exclusively reserved for pornography in the US, hence many mainstream films will try and get cut to a R rating to avoid the attached stigma.

Deepbluediver

2013-03-21, 08:16 AM

Apparently not, according to the MPAA website (http://www.mpaa.org/ratings/what-each-rating-means) and Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Association_of_America_film_rating_ system).

The R rating has the get-out clause of 'no-one under 17 without a parent or adult guardian', while NC-17 is the more restrictive 'no-one under 17'.
As I understand it, NC-17 is almost exclusively reserved for pornography in the US, hence many mainstream films will try and get cut to a R rating to avoid the attached stigma.

Also, many movie theaters won't show anything rated higher than "R", and back when video and DVD rental was still a thing, stores wouldn't stock those tapes. So if you where hoping for a comercially viable distribution, a NC-17 rating was basically a non-starter.

Plus, while the MPAA rating system is somewhat screwy, ambiguous and/or biased towards big-budget movies, an R rating is fairly liberal in what can be shown or discussed. (most of the conflict actually falls around the PG-13/R boundary, since everyone wants to court that "young-people" demographic) To my knowledge, no one really gets an NC-17 rating that wasn't expecting it.

Varen_Tai

2013-03-21, 08:39 AM

I'm pretty sure that code Geass would be exactly the thing that the OP would least enjoy.

A-yup. The constant fan service in a lot of shows is one thing that keeps me from anime - just knowing that there's a character in Cowboy Bebop that gets fanserviced guarantees I'll never watch it.

It's hard to find quality clean entertainment. :smallsmile:

Then he truly would have been the Last Airbender, and he would have gotten a LOT of hate from Asian audiences for his dereliction of duty and betrayal to his ancestors. He probably would have had to give up his Avatar-hood as well, as he'd be seen as no longer holy. The idea that you can romance and still retain full spirituality is purely Protestant, or atheist/ agnostic.

Well, Aang's predecessor, Avatar Roku, was also married and still Avatar. So perhaps the hate might come more from Aang being a monk and less from being Avatar?

And while I'm on the subject of the show itself, I have to admit that while Sokka was the comic relief (to the point of being lampshaded in Season 3 while he trains with the sword master), some of the best lines belonged to Uncle Iiro.

One of my favorite funny moments was in Season 2 (and I admit it sounds so much less funny written out than seeing it in context) when Iiro and Zuko were attacked by the Rhino squad. Iiro is happy to see them and waves, but then he and Zuko defend themselves and race out.

Iiro: It sure is nice to see old friends!

Zuko: Maybe you could have old friends who don't want to kill us!

Iiron: (looking as though he had never thought of that before) Old friend who DON'T want to kill us? Huh!

Oh, man, the look on his face combined with the line was absolutely priceless, and I had to pause while I finished laughing out loud.

There were several literal LOL moments for me, but all of them were in Seasons 2 and 3.

Trivia: The voice actor for Princess Azula also did the voices of Viconia DeVir in Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, and Nalia de'Arnise in BG 2.

Also? Unrelated to TLA, but the guy who does the voice for Minsc in both BG 1 & 2 has also been the voice for Stinky Pete in all the Disney stuff for almost 20 years now. :smallsmile:

Eldan

2013-03-21, 09:11 AM

Give Cowboy Bebop a chance. Faye is not fanserviced constantly. She isn't even in the first few episodes, of the 25 that exist. It's also relatively tasteful. And, well. It's her character. She's a conwoman.

Plus, the show is amazing. If you like shows with emotional impact without going too over the top, you can't go much better than Cowboy Bebop.

Edit: honestly, as far as I can remember, "Fanservice" for Faye means "wears a slightly revealing dress to the Opera", not "runs around in a Bikini and loses her top three times per episode".

Deepbluediver

2013-03-21, 09:32 AM

honestly, as far as I can remember, "Fanservice" for Faye means "wears a slightly revealing dress to the Opera", not "runs around in a Bikini and loses her top three times per episode".

Faye wears short-shorts, thigh-high stockings, and a top that is apparently held on by 1 safety pin and sheer force of will.

Whether or not it counts as "fanservice" depends on how you define that term (see my "champagne" example), and if it detracts from the show at all is entirely subjective.

My personal opinion is that yes, it's fanservice, but its not as jarring as you get in other anime because she dresses like that all the time, and it fits her character. So you don't have "school uniforms" that apparently include miniskirts and shower/hot-spring scenes that come out of nowhere.

If your standard for anime is that everyone needs to dress in their Sunday-Best at all times, that will limit your options somewhat. If you are willing to accept that this exists, and simply decide to not let the occasional bikini detract from your overall enjoyment, the variety of things we can suggest expands drastically.
Is it just female-fanservice you object to? There's whole swaths of anime filled with sparkling shirtless boys, if you'd prefer. :smalltongue:

As I said, you can probably ask about any particular anime you are interested in, and some one will either have seen it, heard or it, or be willing to watch it and get back to you to report on any portion of the content.

dehro

2013-03-21, 09:44 AM

Anime is all about exaggeration - all the facial features are exaggerated, eyes as drawn huge, the character traits are larger than life, everything is BIGGER AND MORE POWERFUL AND AWESOME

...you mean like Texas? :smallamused:
okok, like texans and texas end up being portrayed/parodied

anyhoo, big fan of the show here..whether it's anime or not.

BRC

2013-03-21, 09:57 AM

For example, if this was a cartoon targetting Asian audiences, Aang being depicted as a Dalai Lama analogue (or at least being a young brother in a monastery) but then allowed to romance a girl would have raised a ****storm. At the very least the cartoon would have explicitly explained that he quit being a monk and gave up the "Air Monk" lifestyle, philosophy, and title! Then he truly would have been the Last Airbender, and he would have gotten a LOT of hate from Asian audiences for his dereliction of duty and betrayal to his ancestors. He probably would have had to give up his Avatar-hood as well, as he'd be seen as no longer holy. The idea that you can romance and still retain full spirituality is purely Protestant, or atheist/ agnostic.

Considering that every "Air Nomad" Was a monk,I think it can be assumed that the Air Monks were cool with the occasional work.

Also, there are lots of religions out there that allow spiritualism to coexist with romance (I know Imams and Rabbis at least can get married, not sure about their equivalents in Buddhism, Sikhism, Bahai ect). IIRC The historical reason for celibate priests in Catholicism is that the church wanted to stop the practice of a priest handing a parish off to their son.

Calemyr

2013-03-21, 10:31 AM

Avatar has a level of quality, thoughtfulness, and subtle self-awareness that is just not common on either side of the Pacific. Anime or cartoon, it's a rare gem that should not be considered the standard.

As for anime, Shonen are pretty hard to take seriously. The story is there for the sake of the fights, not the other way around, so things quickly become pretty generic. It's mostly just dumb fun. I remember in college there was an amusing debate regarding the popularity of Dragonball Z in the dorm:

Con: How can you like that crap? It's just like wrestling! (Flimsy writing, horrible rubber-banding relative strengths, over-the-top extremes so overused they become boring.)

Pro: How can you dislike this stuff? It's just like wrestling! (Full of fighting and stuff blowing up.)

Yeah, Shonen is not a genre for people who can't shut their brains off for a little dumb fun. Don't use them as your basis for whether anime has any merit.

Here are some anime I've found to be really darn good:

Cowboy Beebop: There can be no other anime at the top of this list. Beebop is stylish, clever, and cool. It's a little old, but it's gorgeous and manages to be adult in the truest sense - a mature, thoughtful story of four people trying to find or escape their lives. And yes, it may be about a group of bounty hunters, but the plot is not about the bounty hunting. The crew of the Beebop rarely actually gets their man and, even when they do, the collateral damage tends to wipe out their reward money. Faye's dress style is a bit more provocative than necessary but it really suits her in an "overcompensating for identity crisis" way and there's really nothing bad here. Lots of relatively bloodless gunplay, a little bit of rather more bloody sword play, and absolutely riddled with style.

Trigun: A strange psuedo-shonen. Has all the basic elements of a proper shonen: a spikey haired, good-natured idiot blessed with seemingly arbitrarily superior abilities (played by Johnny "Ubiquitous" Bosch, no less) and a constant stream of ever-more-deadly bad guys lining up for fight night. Yet it's much more than that. Unlike other Shonen, the main character suffers a lot more emotional trauma than physical, and it becomes pretty clear that his smile is the only thing holding him together sometimes. The story can get a little wild at times, and the main character tries really hard to be goofy comic relief because he doesn't want to be the action hero he's billed as. It's hard to say if you'd like it, but I found it to be really quite good.

Steins;Gate: Extremely good use of time-travel. The only character in it that is actually over-the-top is the male lead, who adopted his persona for a fairly good reason but may well have a genuine psychosis regarding it. The plot can be rather difficult to follow at times (if you've seen Inception, it's kinda like that - "what temporal reality are we in again?") and starts off very slow, but it's extremely solid, interesting, and simply well thought out. It's got a computer guy with a perverted mind, but that's about it.

Bacanno!: Hmm... this one's tricky. Lots of blood, a complicated three-thread story structure, an ensemble cast of great characters, a fantastic english dub, and an unfortunately named train. There are a fair number of thugs and killers in the show, but only a few of them show the creative sadism that earns the anime the "bloody" label. Try not falling in love with Isaac and Miria. I dare you. Or explain to me how a timid crybaby could rightly be considered one of the top badasses in a series practically swimming in unruly posteriors...

CarpeGuitarrem

2013-03-21, 10:48 AM

As for anime, Shonen are pretty hard to take seriously. The story is there for the sake of the fights, not the other way around, so things quickly become pretty generic. It's mostly just dumb fun. I remember in college there was an amusing debate regarding the popularity of Dragonball Z in the dorm:

Con: How can you like that crap? It's just like wrestling! (Flimsy writing, horrible rubber-banding relative strengths, over-the-top extremes so overused they become boring.)

Pro: How can you dislike this stuff? It's just like wrestling! (Full of fighting and stuff blowing up.)

Yeah, Shonen is not a genre for people who can't shut their brains off for a little dumb fun. Don't use them as your basis for whether anime has any merit.

Honestly, disagreed. Trigun and FMA are full-blooded shounen, not pseudo-shounen; the genre doesn't immediately render a series incapable of being deep. That's like saying American action movies can never be substantial: anyone who holds to that is just espousing a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you believe that action movies (and shounen series) can be meaningful, then you will see that they can be (and sometimes are).

Eldan

2013-03-21, 10:52 AM

Try not falling in love with Isaac and Miria. I dare you.

Okay, then. Dare accepted. I found them incredibly annoying and I seriously considered not watching any more of Baccano after they kept showing up too often. Not funny, not interesting, not charming, just irritating.

Calemyr

2013-03-21, 11:15 AM

Honestly, disagreed. Trigun and FMA are full-blooded shounen, not pseudo-shounen; the genre doesn't immediately render a series incapable of being deep. That's like saying American action movies can never be substantial: anyone who holds to that is just espousing a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you believe that action movies (and shounen series) can be meaningful, then you will see that they can be (and sometimes are).

Yeah, I can't really agree with you on this. If the fights were the centerpieces of the show, I'd agree, but neither FMA nor Trigun are about the fights. The fights are there, and they are well done, but they aren't the focus. Calling them shounen is like calling Bleach a harem anime because Ichigo is surrounded by ladies of every variety (human, shinigami, arrancar, fullbring) that would be interested in a piece of him. Possibly technically true, but completely misclassifying the work Of course, I can't really defend my position without running afoul of your "self-fulfilling prophecy" observation, but I hope you'll admit that these examples are anything but textbook examples of the genre. And that classifying them as such is doing them a disservice by tacking on a good bit of expectation and gut reaction that they simply can't match.

I'm not saying shounen (always spell that one wrong...) is innately bad, though. I quite liked Bleach until the end of the Soul Society arc, where the moral ambiguity turned into straight us-vs-them and Ichigo went from "One Who Protects" to emo omniclassed demi-god. DBZ can also be quite fun if you don't think about it too heavily. (The DBZ abridged version is good for lampshading why: "Er... do you even know how long a minute is?" "Why do I keep letting badguys transform like this?")

Okay, then. Dare accepted. I found them incredibly annoying and I seriously considered not watching any more of Baccano after they kept showing up too often. Not funny, not interesting, not charming, just irritating.

That was quicker than I expected, but there's always someone. One man's comedy gold is another man's infuriating dross.

Prime32

2013-03-21, 11:38 AM

Are you referring to the horrible ending? I disliked the ending so much it made me decide to stop watching any anime series longer than about 50 episodes. 25 is preferred unless the series has glowing reviews. A bad ending, or a non-ending, can ruin an otherwise good series.Which ending? The Shaman King anime had to invent an entire final arc because it overtook the manga (besides all the changes along the way), the manga ended abruptly with everyone setting off to fight the Big Bad, and the second edition of the manga continued the story from that point (with another few minor changes).

And most anime nowadays are structured to fit either a 26-episode season or half of one, with a sequel a year or two later if they're popular enough. Generally the only media that get 2+ seasons worth of episodes back-to-back are cash cows like Gundam or things that ran in Shonen Jump.

Yeah, I can't really agree with you on this. If the fights were the centerpieces of the show, I'd agree, but neither FMA nor Trigun are about the fights. The fights are there, and they are well done, but they aren't the focus. Calling them shounen is like calling Bleach a harem anime because Ichigo is surrounded by ladies of every variety (human, shinigami, arrancar, fullbring) that would be interested in a piece of him. Possibly technically true, but completely misclassifying the work Of course, I can't really defend my position without running afoul of your "self-fulfilling prophecy" observation, but I hope you'll admit that these examples are anything but textbook examples of the genre. And that classifying them as such is doing them a disservice by tacking on a good bit of expectation and gut reaction that they simply can't match.Yeah, see... shonen isn't a genre. It means "pre-teen/teenage boy", and refers to the target audience. "Supernatural martial arts" just happens to be the most common genre among shonen-targeted works, and To Be a Master (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ToBeAMaster) the most common plot. Certainly a piece of writing doesn't change genre by being well-written.

Calemyr

2013-03-21, 11:57 AM

Yeah, see... shonen isn't a genre. It means "boy" or "teenage male", and refers to the target audience. "Supernatural martial arts" just happens to be the most common genre among shonen, and To Be a Master (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ToBeAMaster) the most common plot.

That is an entirely valid point while at the same time being completely beside the point as well. The name of the genre (which I'd always heard labelled as 'shonen') is not really the matter in debate. That bit of discussion was about whether anime X should be classified as genre Y. Does Full Metal Alchemist fit in the same genre as Bleach and One Piece?

Given the actual topic is Avatar, however, this is all beside the point in any event. All hail Iroh!

"You are clearly outnumbered."
"Perhaps. While you are clearly outmatched."

Hiro Protagonest

2013-03-21, 12:54 PM

Varen_Tai

2013-03-21, 12:59 PM

Avatar has a level of quality, thoughtfulness, and subtle self-awareness that is just not common on either side of the Pacific. Anime or cartoon, it's a rare gem that should not be considered the standard.

Heh. So maybe my taste is for true entertainment quality? :elan: Even if I don't like anime, I loved Avatar because it was truly awesome?

Yup, I like that. Varen Tai, the ultimate expert of quality. Has a nice ring to it.

Sith_Happens

2013-03-21, 01:00 PM

He probably would have had to give up his Avatar-hood as well, as he'd be seen as no longer holy. The idea that you can romance and still retain full spirituality is purely Protestant, or atheist/ agnostic.

This part is actually somewhat addressed during the sequence with the Guru, specifically at the end when Aang is told that opening the final chakra requires him to give up all earthly attachments and realizes that that includes Katara.

Does Full Metal Alchemist fit in the same genre as Bleach and One Piece?

Yes, to approximately the same extent that Bleach and One Piece themselves can even be considred to "fit in the same genre."

Pick any two of the three, and the similarities mostly end at "action series with an emphasis on magic/superpower-augmented melee duels and friendship as the primary theme, deepness of plot and characterization may vary."

GloatingSwine

2013-03-21, 01:52 PM

code geass

Code Geass was probably the least interesting robit show that was on when it was on. Especially when R2 broke it. Code Trainwreck.

If you want some robits, watch Gundam 00 or Macross Frontier (although Macross is a bit of an acquired taste, if you can put up with the core conceit that the destiny of the universe hinges on the antics of j-pop starlets, then you can get on with enjoying the fine robits. Gundam is more For Serious. Don't be put off by the fact that there's millions of it, it's not all connected).

CarpeGuitarrem

2013-03-21, 02:13 PM

Pick any two of the three, and the similarities mostly end at "action series with an emphasis on magic/superpower-augmented melee duels and friendship as the primary theme, deepness of plot and characterization may vary."
My Little Elrics: Friendship is Alchemy?

MLai

2013-03-21, 02:40 PM

Well, Aang's predecessor, Avatar Roku, was also married and still Avatar. So perhaps the hate might come more from Aang being a monk and less from being Avatar?
Asian viewers would automatically assume that all Avatars were exceedingly spiritual and holy, if not in Buddhist tradition then in Taoist tradition and even shamanistic aborigine traditions. Roku looks a lot like a Taoist wise man in design. Wisdom is often associated with asceticism/ hermeticism in Asia, so if you're celibate you are seen as holier and wiser regardless of your worship. Romantic pursuits aren't seen as something that is the ultimate spiritual fulfillment, as it is seen in the West. Chivalric/ courtly love didn't become a thing in Eastern culture as it did for knights.
Even if your religion/ philosophy, such as Taoism, allows you to get married... moderation and detachment from consuming desires is the virtue, rather than true love.
Aang's romantic inclinations (not talking about the platonic/ friendly aspect) to Katara often caused his life and work to be harder than it needed to be, during the timeframe of the series. In Western eyes, it's seen as obstacles to overcome in order to achieve true love. In East, it'd be seen as earthly attachment interfering with Aang's higher cause.

Considering that every "Air Nomad" Was a monk,I think it can be assumed that the Air Monks were cool with the occasional work.
I'd think Asian viewers would automatically assume the Airbenders are monks culled from their civilian population. They do live in temples, and have shaved heads, and dress/act like they're Tibetan monk facsimiles. The fact the show displays a temple and then implies all the "monks" habitually get their groove on would be quite jarring.

Also, there are lots of religions out there that allow spiritualism to coexist with romance (I know Imams and Rabbis at least can get married, not sure about their equivalents in Buddhism, Sikhism, Bahai ect).
We're specifically talking about Buddhist monks in the case of ATLA.
The average American audience being able to accept that these clergy-seeming people can romance would be due to their high Protestant/atheist background. Other religions have marriageable clergy but they're minorities in NA.

This part is actually somewhat addressed during the sequence with the Guru, specifically at the end when Aang is told that opening the final chakra requires him to give up all earthly attachments and realizes that that includes Katara.
Yeah, I think if this was written in the East, this "letting go" would mean forever, rather than "just 1/2 an episode."
So the ending would be Aang going on to become a full-fledged Avatar, and holy celibate monk for the rest of his life. Katara marries Zuko.
I like this...

That was quicker than I expected, but there's always someone. One man's comedy gold is another man's infuriating dross.
I didn't like Baccano much, either. None of the characters were very interesting or deep to me; they all seemed pretty stock. Take away the artificially confusing time jumps, and the story is very simple and linear.

My Little Elrics: Friendship is Alchemy?
That's a good recommendation actually.
No, not Full Metal Alchemist. The OP wouldn't like FMA.
My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. You like the jokes in ATLA? You'll like MLP:FIM.
Watch it. With your kids. If they aren't watching it already.

Varen_Tai

2013-03-21, 02:43 PM

While we are talking about anime in general:

An oldie but goodie (http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail57.html)

:smallbiggrin:

BRC

2013-03-21, 04:49 PM

Yeah, I think if this was written in the East, this "letting go" would mean forever, rather than "just 1/2 an episode."
So the ending would be Aang going on to become a full-fledged Avatar, and holy celibate monk for the rest of his life. Katara marries Zuko.
I like this...

Well, IIRC, opening the Chakras isn't something every Avatar does. Most Avatars just mature naturally until they gain full control over the Avatar State (Like Korra did). Opening the Chakras was a shortcut to the normal method of "Wait around and grow wiser until you can do it".

And "Letting Go" was supposed to be forever. Aang's Chakras got locked because he COULDN'T let go. He couldn't use the Avatar State at all

You know, until he got thrown into a rock which hit him in exactly the right place.

Douglas

2013-03-21, 05:03 PM

And "Letting Go" was supposed to be forever. Aang's Chakras got locked because he COULDN'T let go. He couldn't use the Avatar State at all
Unless I'm missing something, that had nothing to do with Aang's inability to use the Avatar State. His chakra was blocked by damage from Azula's lightning bolt, which almost killed him.

You know, until he got thrown into a rock which hit him in exactly the right place.
The rock hit him in the same spot as the lightning bolt that did the damage in the first place. As for why that fixed it, you might as well ask why people commonly hit and/or shake things that don't work as the first step in attempting to fix them. It happens, it's a trope of some sort, and even in real life it sometimes actually works.

KoboldRevenge

2013-03-21, 05:05 PM

On Anime recs' I'd say watch the Boondocks.
I have a similar position as you in regards to television. I say that a "Anime" art style, with a more familiar archetypal (western if you want to call it that) writing style.

I think some full Boondocks episodes are available online.

BRC

2013-03-21, 05:31 PM

Unless I'm missing something, that had nothing to do with Aang's inability to use the Avatar State. His chakra was blocked by damage from Azula's lightning bolt, which almost killed him.

Oh right
The Guru said something about "If you stop now, your Chakras will become locked!"

But he flies back to Ba-Sing-Se anyway, where he eventually tries to Avatar State, and gets lightning bolted.

So the Guru had no idea what he was talking about.

Cikomyr

2013-03-21, 05:34 PM

Fun fact: the story structure of Avatar reflects a lot the original Star Wars trilogy

Douglas

2013-03-21, 05:42 PM

Oh right
The Guru said something about "If you stop now, your Chakras will become locked!"

But he flies back to Ba-Sing-Se anyway, where he eventually tries to Avatar State, and gets lightning bolted.

So the Guru had no idea what he was talking about.
I think what the Guru really meant there was that Aang would be unable to enter the Avatar State at all until he completed the final unlocking step. He believed that Aang's reasons for leaving would interfere with the final unlock, and assumed that Aang would never overcome that interference if Aang allowed those reasons to take priority.

Cue Aang taking a time out from battle to successfully complete that final step, which contradicts the Guru's beliefs and assumptions about Aang's personality and mindset but not necessarily his knowledge about the Avatar State.

Tavar

2013-03-21, 05:52 PM

Fun fact: the story structure of Avatar reflects a lot the original Star Wars trilogy

Funner Fact: Guess who plays Firelord Ozai in Avatar?

Cikomyr

2013-03-21, 05:56 PM

Funner Fact: Guess who plays Firelord Ozai in Avatar?

Well I'll be damned...

But did you noticed the parallels between the 3 chapters and the Star Wars trilogy?

Dr.Epic

2013-03-21, 06:20 PM

Fun fact: the story structure of Avatar reflects a lot the original Star Wars trilogy

That's because Star Wars is such a basic story. It parallels a lot of stories.

Cikomyr

2013-03-21, 06:46 PM

That's because Star Wars is such a basic story. It parallels a lot of stories.

I mean, look at the end of the 2nd season.

You have the Chosen One who goes undertake his training in a remote location. But before he can complete it, he gets a vision about his loved ones; saying that they are in danger.

He rushes in to save them, but is badly unprepared and gets nearly killed by the Big Bad's second in command; losing a part of himself in the process. The heroes' only victory is managing to get away alive.

The 1st season ended with the Bad guys attacking one of the last bastion of hope.

The 3rd season has a massive attack on the bad guys' stronghold, except it's actually a trap.

Dr.Epic

2013-03-21, 07:10 PM

I mean, look at the end of the 2nd season.

You have the Chosen One who goes undertake his training in a remote location. But before he can complete it, he gets a vision about his loved ones; saying that they are in danger.

He rushes in to save them, but is badly unprepared and gets nearly killed by the Big Bad's second in command; losing a part of himself in the process. The heroes' only victory is managing to get away alive.

The 1st season ended with the Bad guys attacking one of the last bastion of hope.

The 3rd season has a massive attack on the bad guys' stronghold, except it's actually a trap.

Yeah, again, it's a basic story.

BRC

2013-03-21, 07:30 PM

Yeah, again, it's a basic story.
Just because the tropes are common does not mean that using them in a specific combination is common. What Star Wars demonstrates is a basic Dramatic Arc (Which many things use as well). A slow beginning culminating in a climactic ending. It also makes use of several tropes that are common. In my opinion, Avatar shares enough of these "Common Tropes" With Star Wars for it to be an interesting similarity.

It's like, if two people both had oatmeal for breakfast, that's nothing to note. Same if they both had a Chicken Sandwich for lunch. Same if they both had Spaghetti for dinner.

However, if two people both have Oatmeal for breakfast, a Chicken Sandwich for lunch, AND Spaghetti for dinner, that might be interesting enough to bring up.

dehro

2013-03-22, 03:26 AM

Just because the tropes are common does not mean that using them in a specific combination is common.

the main elements of this particular combo is common as dirt in Mangaverse.. you get the hero rushing in to defend his loved ones, getting his behind handed to him with a ribbon on top, and regroup to prepare for a later showdown.
it really doesn't get any more common than this in fighting-theme-based manga.

Varen_Tai

2013-03-22, 08:43 AM

the main elements of this particular combo is common as dirt in Mangaverse.

It's not just manga - I've been reading the spy novels about Gabriel Alon on and off, and there is a similar pattern emerging in those books as well. Seems this tends to cross genres.

Socratov

2013-03-22, 09:46 AM

It's not just manga - I've been reading the spy novels about Gabriel Alon on and off, and there is a similar pattern emerging in those books as well. Seems this tends to cross genres.

that's becuase it's the proto standard hero tale.

Hero is needed, hero gets discoverd, hero gets apprieciated, Hero learns of BBEG, Hero fights BBEG/Dragon -> loses fight+injury/broken item(s), Hero trains, abandons training for friends in need, Hero (re)gains item(s), fights BBEG/dragon again and wins.

there, proto hero story.

Aotrs Commander

2013-03-22, 11:45 AM

They do say there's only really about four or five stories in the world (or something of that description)...

GloatingSwine

2013-03-22, 12:11 PM

Just because the tropes are common does not mean that using them in a specific combination is common.

Actually, it is.

The basic Hero's Journey archetypal story was identified by Joseph Campbell in The Hero with a Thousand Faces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces), and since he wrote that many authors have used it as a deliberate template, certainly including George Lucas (who has even specifically stated that this is what he was doing).

The fact that Star Wars and Avatar look similar is not concidental, they're following a format that has existed as long as, and probably longer than, written fiction.

CarpeGuitarrem

2013-03-22, 12:39 PM

The fact that Star Wars and Avatar look similar is not concidental, they're following a format that has existed as long as, and probably longer than, written fiction.
YMMV on how correct Campbell actually is (it's beyond the scope of this thread), but it's certainly true that since he published his book (and Lucas jumped on the idea, adapting Star Wars to better fit Campbell's model), Hollywood has had a love affair with the "monomyth". That's also bled into a lot of other areas.

John Cribati

2013-03-22, 04:28 PM

The follow-up: Legend of Korra succeded in explaining class struggle as thought of by Marx.

Tried? Yes. Succeeded? No.

Dr.Epic

2013-03-22, 04:28 PM

Just because the tropes are common does not mean that using them in a specific combination is common. What Star Wars demonstrates is a basic Dramatic Arc (Which many things use as well). A slow beginning culminating in a climactic ending. It also makes use of several tropes that are common. In my opinion, Avatar shares enough of these "Common Tropes" With Star Wars for it to be an interesting similarity.

It's like, if two people both had oatmeal for breakfast, that's nothing to note. Same if they both had a Chicken Sandwich for lunch. Same if they both had Spaghetti for dinner.

However, if two people both have Oatmeal for breakfast, a Chicken Sandwich for lunch, AND Spaghetti for dinner, that might be interesting enough to bring up.

It's still a basic story. It's just told and reinvented very well which confuses your brain into thinking it's something completely original.

Nameless

2013-03-22, 04:54 PM

Seeing as I just wrote my thesis on Avatar, I feel like I should explain why Avatar isn't an anime. Not from a "snobbish" personal view, but from an objective, technical perspective. However, I won't, because I can't be arsed to get into this damn argument.

I will say, however, that Avatar is fantastic show and has some of the best character development I've ever seen in a cartoon series. I didn't much enjoy season 1, but season 2 and 3 were amazing. I'm really enjoying Korra so far as well.

Anime is also great, and comes in all sorts of wonderful flavors. Cat Soup is my all time favorite.

John Cribati

2013-03-22, 05:01 PM

It's still a basic story. It's just told and reinvented very well which confuses your brain into thinking it's something completely original.
Like someone said before, there are only so many stories you can tell. What matters is how they're told.

Now as for Anime Recommendations, if only the recent ones I've watched:

Fullmetal Alchemist. I've only watched Brotherhood, but if the original anime is anything like it, it will be strongly Character-grounded, Plot-heavy, and very emotional. The only real over-the-top moments come from Ed being called short, and anyone whose last name is Armstrong. Although I guess depending on how you define "Over-The-Top," you might not like the villain's Ultimate Master Plan.

Say I Love You- 13-episode Slice-of-Life Romance. Don't Judge.

Sword Art Online: I may have to watch this over again, but I found it greatly enjoyable. Maybe the 26-Episode format has something to do with it, but Short Shonen series tend to be tighter in plot and have quicker, grittier fight scenes. There's an element of Romance involved, and while it doesn't overpower the first half of the story, it utterly drives the second half.

Naruto. Yes. I recommend it. It's mediocre a lot of the time, but when it's good, it's really good. Most of the characters that get a lot of screentime are fun. All of the characters that get minimal screentime are awesome (Example: Rock Lee. I wish This guy was the main character). The fight scenes are alright if you can stomach the flashbacks that occur between every other trade of punches. And everyone explaining how their powers work. And Replace "Ninjas" with "Martial Arts Wizard" in your head. Again, there's a lot of over-the-topness, so grain of salt and stuff.

Eldan

2013-03-22, 05:07 PM

John Cribati

2013-03-22, 05:17 PM

Naruto... I'd say the first season of 25ish episodes was pretty good with a pretty great few last episodes. The next forty or so episodes were pretty enjoyable. Then it lost all appeal to me, even after all the filler.

I really only consume media for the sake of characters anyway, and they're enjoyable enough that I can slog through all the filler. But then again, everyone except Shikamaru is really, really stupid.

Devonix

2013-03-22, 05:35 PM

Hiro Protagonest

2013-03-22, 06:45 PM

I'm a comics fan first and as most people here know about me. Filler will always be as valid as the rest of a series unless is explicitly stated to be in a different continuity IE Episodes of One Piece where they are reimagined as mob bosses.

Except for the fact that filler is made because anime burn through content quicker than manga, and are therefore not written by the author. Like the fact that there was a filler episode of One Piece with a dragon, and then Oda recently put in a dragon and made it obvious that the crew's never believed they're real (and this dragon was actually man-made by a brilliant government scientist).

HamHam

2013-03-22, 07:09 PM

Except for the fact that filler is made because anime burn through content quicker than manga, and are therefore not written by the author. Like the fact that there was a filler episode of One Piece with a dragon, and then Oda recently put in a dragon and made it obvious that the crew's never believed they're real (and this dragon was actually man-made by a brilliant government scientist).

Yeah, filler in this sense is an artifact of how the anime industry works, with shows being produced as very precise adaptations of incomplete stories.

Dr.Epic

2013-03-22, 07:19 PM

Like someone said before, there are only so many stories you can tell. What matters is how they're told.

They're still both very basic stories which is what I'm trying to say.

Now as for Anime Recommendations, if only the recent ones I've watched:

Fullmetal Alchemist. I've only watched Brotherhood, but if the original anime is anything like it, it will be strongly Character-grounded, Plot-heavy, and very emotional. The only real over-the-top moments come from Ed being called short, and anyone whose last name is Armstrong. Although I guess depending on how you define "Over-The-Top," you might not like the villain's Ultimate Master Plan.

Original anime's better. Better characterization, and far less over the top moments as well as other better aspects.

Sith_Happens

2013-03-22, 07:39 PM

Original anime's better. Better characterization, and far less over the top moments as well as other better aspects.

I'd say they're both equally good, just in different ways. Not-Brotherhood is closer to what the OP is probably looking for, though.

John Cribati

2013-03-22, 08:10 PM

They're still both very basic stories which is what I'm trying to say.

That awkward moment when two people are trying to make the same point but it comes out like they're debating opposite sides.

Dr.Epic

2013-03-22, 08:28 PM

I'd say they're both equally good, just in different ways. Not-Brotherhood is closer to what the OP is probably looking for, though.

I thought they wanted less over the top moments, which the original anime has.

That awkward moment when two people are trying to make the same point but it comes out like they're debating opposite sides.

I disagree! Now let's agree to disagree so we can keep arguing!

Sith_Happens

2013-03-23, 07:28 PM

I thought they wanted less over the top moments, which the original anime has.

That's what I said. Notice the "Not-" before "Brotherhood."

GloatingSwine

2013-03-24, 08:34 PM

I'm a comics fan first and as most people here know about me. Filler will always be as valid as the rest of a series unless is explicitly stated to be in a different continuity IE Episodes of One Piece where they are reimagined as mob bosses.

Ammount of filler has no problems for me as long as it's good.

Trouble is, most of the time filler isn't good.

Because it's just marking time until the manga has picked up its lead again, filler can't grow or change anything, nothing can actually matter in a filler arc, there can't be any stakes for the characters because that's only going to happen in the main stories.

Metahuman1

2013-03-24, 10:14 PM

Sort of a pity your trying to keep it pg-13 or less.

See, there's a series called Vagabond, runs a real long time. It's historical fiction, centered on telling the story of real life martial arts/sword-play master Miyamoto Musashi, starting from about the time he was seventeen or so (With flashback's to when he was younger when appropriate.) and running the course of his life/career.

Unfortunately, since this is the story of a factual warriors life and adventures starting at the end of a period of major open war, during a time and culture where significant and lethal physical violence was a common day to day thing (Again, factually accurate of the place and time.), and where sex was really not considered Taboo (Particularly when compared to modern western standards.), the series is strongly R rated.

But if your willing to make an acception on the grounds of "There just going for relative/reasonable levels of historical accuracy the same way, say, Tom Cruises 'The Last Samurai' did." it might be worth a go.

Aotrs Commander

2013-03-26, 11:28 AM

Trouble is, most of the time filler isn't good.

Because it's just marking time until the manga has picked up its lead again, filler can't grow or change anything, nothing can actually matter in a filler arc, there can't be any stakes for the characters because that's only going to happen in the main stories.

So what? So what if it doesn't advance The Plot?

No, seriously, when did Plot Advancement become the only important aspect? People throw that and "character development" around like it is something that should happen every single time.

But what happened to being able to appreciate characters just being as they are and getting to do some, as one of the X-Men once, "moderate punching and hitting and all's well with the world" on occasion? Seeing the characters being able to richard about a bit and blast off their Awesome Wotsits without having to mandatorially be Beaten Down By 1 so it can all end up in some one-on-one duel with the Protagonist or something (which is a bit of a trope that annoys the crap out of me and what little shonen I've seen seems to fall headlong into that; especially grating in Naruto, where it's all supposed to be about [I]teamwork...!) And in filler, you can actually have the bad guys properly beaten.

Heck, a lot of shows don't have A Plot to advance most of the time, making them all essentially filler (with maybe the odd call-back to previous things that have happened), but that doesn't stop them being entertaining. (And I always think that "character development" is such a completely nebulous phrase at the best of times...)

Fillers are a nice excuse to see the characters interacting with each other and generally dealing with the less world-shaking events or at least ones that are dealt with conclusively.

I liked most (most, but not all) of the filler in Naruto some of it more than the main plot (some of it quite a lot more than the main plot).

Hell, the Naruto movies are basically filler and Will of Fire is so much better than the main plot line it isn't even funny. I was saddened to realise that the real ending to the series will never get with spitting distance of that level. And, despite Being Essentially Filler, they actually managed to throw in some good character (and even character development, for what it's worth) moments) on top.

Now, not all filler is good; but not all of it is bad, either; it's all about how creative the writers are with it. It's only really bad if it's boring (and/or completely inconsistent with the show/thingy's tone/characterisation/mythos in general).

Things that run without any filler are usually done by extremely good writers and/or because of a lot of prior build up (I don't think there was much if any filler in Babylon 5 season four - where they wrapped up two year's worth of plot lines in one year - or Young Justice season 2, but those are pretty exceptional.)

1Just once, I'd like to see the big bad come up against one of the side/support/secondary characters in something and actually get killed by them, just for a twist and to play with expectations. And for the look on the bad guy's face as he realises he's been beaten by someone who isn't the Protagonist. (Bonus points if you go the whole bad guy attacks the hero's base while they're off out doing something else and it rains and thus setting up the theoretical "bad guy destroys base, kills secondary character for Emotional Impact" scenario...)

(Okay, yeah, Joss Whedon did do it sort of once in Buffy with Zander and Evil Willow and definately with Lindsey and Lorn in the Angel finale.)

Varen_Tai

2013-03-26, 11:41 AM

So what? So what if it doesn't advance The Plot?

No, seriously, when did Plot Advancement become the only important aspect? People throw that and "character development" around like it is something that should happen every single time.

But what happened to being able to appreciate characters just being as they are and getting to do some, as one of the X-Men once, "moderate punching and hitting and all's well with the world" on occasion?

Things that run without any filler are usually done by extremely good writers and/or because of a lot of prior build up (I don't think there was much if any filler in Babylon 5 season four - where they wrapped up two year's worth of plot lines in one year - or Young Justice season 2, but those are pretty exceptional.)

That's an excellent point, and I think the difference between true filler and the quieter plots and subplots that B5 is famous for is that even when things are quiet, the characters change and develop. Filler keeps everyone in stasis. Exciting stasis, perhaps, but no one gains any true new allies or enemies, no characters reveal a deeper point to them than before, etc.

Filler is dumb. It's like every single episode of the 80s GI Joe cartoon (or pretty much every TV show, cartoon or not, in the 80s)- no one dies or gets hurt (unless the latter is the point of the entire show), and at the end of the episode, it's as if that episode never really happened. Everyone and everything is right back to status quo. Blech.

But those stories that pull off quieter plots, perhaps unrelated to the Grand Plot, allow us to see characters interact and grow outside of crisis, still allow for true change. That's neat!

I detected no filler in TLA. Only a few eps of B5 might have come close to filler (the awful "TKO" was one, though the episode subplot was significant, and "Grey 17 Is Missing" might qualify as another one, with the same caveat), but subtle or not, the characters changed.

Man, I love that show.

Douglas

2013-03-26, 02:01 PM

Cikomyr

2013-03-26, 02:07 PM

The big problem with filler is not that it doesn't advance The Plot or provide major character development, it's that you know about the lack of those things in advance. If you're watching filler, you know for an absolute fact that there is a whole major class of events that simply cannot happen, and that greatly limits the kinds of stories the show can tell.

That's not true at all. Filler can often allow you to get into more character development that aren't related to major overall plot points. I'm just thinking of "Appa's Lost Days", or the story about the crazy Bloodbender, or maybe even the story where Aang is put on trial for the deed of his predecessor.

All stories that weren't important to the overall plot, but gave us a great insight into specific characters.

Sith_Happens

2013-03-26, 03:22 PM

I liked most (most, but not all) of the filler in Naruto some of it more than the main plot (some of it quite a lot more than the main plot).

The recent "Power" mini-arc was so glaringly high-quality in every way that half the time I couldn't even believe I was watching the same show. Whoever directed or was otherwise in charge of that needs like five promotions.

Cikomyr

2013-03-26, 03:40 PM

Well, as far as filler goes, Naruto Shipuuden really mastered the art of fillers. They learned their lesson HARD after the 4 seasons of filler.

GloatingSwine

2013-03-26, 08:40 PM

So what? So what if it doesn't advance The Plot?

No, seriously, when did Plot Advancement become the only important aspect? People throw that and "character development" around like it is something that should happen every single time.

The problem is that there are no stakes. In a filler arc there's nothing on the line for the characters, they risk nothing and so there's no emotional investment from the audience.

Metahuman1

2013-03-26, 10:16 PM

Well, that's probably true of a series that is following another series, such as the anime adaptations of Manga. Naruto, Bleach, One Peice being prime examples.

But if the show's like Avatar TLA, and there ARE no preset scrips to follow, then filler can actually work. It sorta shows time passed and things happened between one major event and the next. Though, I grant you, there are filler eps I'd have rather not had to enfure, the Ember Island Players being a perfect example of a waste of an episode.

But on the flip side, there are filler eps that were excellent. Tales of Ba Sing Sa was masterfully done.

Or form another series, There was a story Arc during the filler segment of the original Naruto where they were facing the last survivor of a clan with a gen-jutsu based blood line limit. The power of the bloodline limit made Illusions so real, that your brain actually became so completely tricked by them as to case injury's that manifested form the Illusions, Say burns form fire, to actually, physically appear on the victoms body in real life! And as a topper, if the Illusion killed you, you died for REAL! It as a feesable thing for at least some people in that universe to have pursued developing, and a really, really awesome power to have. So those things made it a neat arc.

There was another one were Hinata, a side character, actually got a small power increase and developed a technique wherein she used precision control of her chakura to create thin strands of the stuff that cut through almost anything, and used High Presser Water for an attack with her Chakura. Which, again, was a neat concept, one I wish had been IN the main continuity so that it could be explored and developed even further.

I'm using Naruto and Avatar TLA because of Familiarity, but I know other series have done examples of these things, such as a Filler Character in One Piece who's trick is she's either pocket sized or big enough to use the ship as a bath toy, but never anywhere in the middle. That sounds to me like a character who'd likely be fun to actually have around full time, and potentially quite useful to boot!

Huh, weird, me and the Lich don't normally agree on things. It's happened, but it's still pretty rare, and it's certainly been awhile. Odd.

Sith_Happens

2013-03-27, 01:26 AM

There was another one were Hinata, a side character, actually got a small power increase and developed a technique wherein she used precision control of her chakura to create thin strands of the stuff that cut through almost anything, and used High Presser Water for an attack with her Chakura. Which, again, was a neat concept, one I wish had been IN the main continuity so that it could be explored and developed even further.

I'd say this actually exemplifies the problem with things-you-can-and-can't-do-in-anime-filler. On one hand, Protective Trigrams was in fact awesome. On the other hand, it was incredibly disappointing knowing that eventually the series would simply forget that it ever existed (although why they didn't take the opportunity to insert it into the extra two minutes they had her last against Pain is beyond me, and for that matter it would have been super easy to insert it into one of the many five-second cuts to her company during the first day of the war).

HamHam

2013-03-27, 03:53 AM

John Cribati

2013-03-27, 06:11 AM

Ember Island Players (and, let's face it, most of season 3 of ATLA) wasn't filled. It was "breather." Basically, it was Mike and Bryan going "okay, s**t is gonna be getting real intense so lets calm things down a bit." It was also a return to the spirit of season 1, where we're getting to see the world the characters live in because it's something new.

And Ember Island Players was hilarious, don't even front.

dehro

2013-03-27, 06:29 AM

the way I see it, filler is quick satisfaction and sooner or later most people grow out of appreciating it and tend to like a show or a character for other virtues than the quick fix.
a gag can be funny and it can be funny multiple times..sometimes the repetition itself is what makes it funny. sooner or later though you kind of want something more from your characters than to shout bazinga at every turn. if Sheldon Cooper.. I forget myself, if Dr. Sheldon Cooper didn't grow and change through the season and only limited himself to saying a joke and then shouting bazinga, he would pretty soon stop being the star of the show and his sides of the episodes would fade into obscurity and blend together in anonymous gloop.
what keeps it fresh is that more often than not, every character does undergo some sort of definition, growing-up layering, etc etc..
episodes that don't change a single thing in a character's life, whatever the show, end up being forgotten unless they stand out for some other reason (brilliant comedy, great mini-plot, particularily effective special effects or acting).. which is something that would make them stand out from being filler anyway.
I seem to remember there was a musical episode of buffy.
Not having seen it, I am guessing it didn't add or change much to either the greater plot or the characters.. but that wouldn't be filler on account of being a unique episode memorable for reasons that go beyond the plot.
When I was a kid I could watch Masters of the Universe or Ghostbusters for hours. Today I wouldn't, on account of nothing actually changing and the single episodes being entirely unimportant and interchangeable..

Is it an age issue, a matter of refinement through extended exposure (where refinement can be substituted with "I've seen it umphteen times already")?
I don't know.. all I know is that if something strikes me as being filler, I'm most likely going to forget all about it within minutes, whereas stuff that moves things forward, be it plotwise or character development-wise tend to stick with me.

Badgerish

2013-03-27, 06:44 AM

Luzahn

2013-03-27, 09:10 AM

I've seen the first book of Avatar:TLA twice now (or at least 1 and a half times), but only a little of books 2 and 3.

But that will change soon, as I have just picked up the full collection on DvD and intend to do some marathoning over my the upcoming 4 day weekend.

Personally, I'd rank season 2 as the best of them. You get an excellent Zuko and Iroh storyline, and Toph is one of the best characters.

Hiro Protagonest

2013-03-27, 04:28 PM

Season 3 sucked. I hated The Ember Island Players. I hated the Halloween special. I hated when Katara and Zuko went to find the raider. That wasn't character development. That was some stupid crap. I skipped through most of The Ember Island Players, hoping it would get better. I watched the start of The Southern Raiders, but I didn't go through it until after I had gotten bored of watching the finale. The Avatar and the Firelord and The Boiling Rock were good, because they actually made stuff happen.

Metahuman1

2013-03-27, 10:35 PM

Am I the only one who though a "Dark Bending Art/Forbidden School Of Bending." in the tradition of some of the Wuxia legends was actually kinda a spiffy addition to the show?

And I liked the Southern Raiders. I though it was nice to see Katara seriously work her self up into a killing frenzy only to look upon her intended and completely justifiable target and say.... "no. Your garbage. Your lower then dirt. An empty husk that simply exists and won't even be doing that for that much longer anyway. Your not worth it, and my mother wouldn't have wanted me to do this to you. Not like this." and walk away.

CarpeGuitarrem

2013-03-28, 12:42 AM

Jack1

2014-01-04, 02:14 AM

Socratov

2014-01-04, 05:56 AM

Just because Powerpuff Girls are big-eyed doesn't means it has something to do with Anime. Not at all. :smallannoyed:

well, it was something the writer (IIRC) comented on using for inspiration... That doesn't make it anime though and I never said it was. I only said it was inspired by anime in drawing style.

MLai

2014-01-04, 11:28 AM

@ OP, where-ever he is now:
Do not watch Baccano, Full Metal Alchemist BROTHERHOOD, Code Geass, Shaman King, Trigun, Steins;Gate or One Piece. It's not your cup of tea.
I'm not saying they're not good animes. But ppl get over-enthusiastic and recommend shows containining elements you clearly said you don't like, just because they liked them. I really don't understand why one such poster went out of his way to recommend an entire half-dozen good animes that he should know you expressedly won't like.

Now here's the thing, generally speaking the show doesn't go in for shock value or sex appeal. The Major is probably the most all-around capable character on the show.
She just doesn't wear pants.
So yeah, kind of like cyborg-soldier-detective Wonder Woman.
I think you just hit upon the reason for the Major's dress incongruity in GitS, aside from female character denigration rants.
That is, the Major is designed to evoke the feeling of a Superhero in the midst of a cadre of dull-palette Police Procedural characters. YMMV whether that intention succeeds.

ThePhantom

2014-01-04, 11:29 AM

Just because Powerpuff Girls are big-eyed doesn't means it has something to do with Anime. Not at all. :smallannoyed:

True the big eyes doesn't create a connection to anime. The anime version of the Powerpuff Girls creates a connection to anime.

MLai

2014-01-04, 11:34 AM

True the big eyes doesn't create a connection to anime. The anime version of the Powerpuff Girls creates a connection to anime.
There's an... anime version of Powerpuff Girls???
Dare I ask for a link? Or should I walk away from the abyss?

Jack1

2014-01-04, 12:29 PM

well, it was something the writer (IIRC) comented on using for inspiration... That doesn't make it anime though and I never said it was. I only said it was inspired by anime in drawing style.
Can't really detect it tbh. Then, some other late 90s-present Cartoon Network shows has to be inspired by Anime in drawing style too, since Johny Bravo, Dexter's Lab and especially Foster's Home are related.

True the big eyes doesn't create a connection to anime. The anime version of the Powerpuff Girls creates a connection to anime.
Lol, makes sense. But that's a different show from Japan. And he was talking about "The Powerpuff Girls" by Craig McCracken.

There's an... anime version of Powerpuff Girls???
Dare I ask for a link? Or should I walk away from the abyss?
:smallwink:

Socratov

2014-01-04, 01:28 PM

Tried? Yes. Succeeded? No.
I thought they did a rather good job explaining it, from the kapitalist standpoint, without referencing the actual history.

Can't really detect it tbh. Then, some other late 90s-present Cartoon Network shows has to be inspired by Anime in drawing style too, since Johny Bravo, Dexter's Lab and especially Foster's Home are related.

Lol, makes sense. But that's a different show from Japan. And he was talking about "The Powerpuff Girls" by Craig McCracken.

:smallwink:

Well, as I understood it, start at looney tunes and Tom and Jerry. Comic books come up and the style is quite comparable to anatomy, until a moment calls for exaggerration (remember the hurting giant red pulsating thumb?). Japanese artists, being inspired by comics in the US and comical cartoons on tv create their own series, but with their own style: presto! Anime and manga are a thing now. This style is a cultural based thing of exaggerration of body parts to create expression and whatever they do more. some time later US artists find out about anime and manga and become inspired by the technique of exaggerrating bodyparts in storytelling start using it for themselves. I might be wrong about this, but this is how it always struck me.