View Full Version : Does Count Durkula mean nale's death?
pendell
2013-03-20, 08:18 AM
2323Mike on the "could the order work with Tarquin" thread brings up a good point.
The reason Nale is alive is because he knows things about the Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) .
Well, once Count Durkula is compelled to tell Tarquin everything he knows, given Nale learned everything HE knows about the gate from the same source (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html).
This implies that , once Durkula is compelled to spill everything he knows, Tarquin and Malack will know everything Nale knows.
Thus, Nale is no longer of any particular use to them. Malack will almost certainly be prepared to kill Nale then and there.
Will Tarquin go along with it? Or will he find some other excuse to keep his own flesh and blood alive? An excuse his friend will accept?
Or have I completely misread the situation?
Respectfully,
Brian P.
Gift Jeraff
2013-03-20, 08:42 AM
There's still the whole "I've worked with the guys who have the ritual" thing.
RMS Oceanic
2013-03-20, 08:42 AM
This presumes that Nale hasn't actually told them everything he knows about the gates, which I don't believe because he was at Tarquin's mercy and he knew it.
This said, what Durkula may tell them about which Nale doesn't know is Xykon. Nale is counting on being able to work with Xykon to use the gate, or at least that's what he told Tarquin. Admittedly I don't think we've seen the Order learn much about Xykon's motivations since the Battle of Azure City, but maybe they've been able to piece something together.
AngryHobbit
2013-03-20, 08:47 AM
Well, Tarquin, as evil as he is, is extremely dramatic guy. No matter how much Nale is useless to him, he wouldn't kill him just like that. You know, evil twin/good twin to Elan. Tarquin doesn't need any excuse to keep him alive, he's a de facto leader of the BE, and Malack, who would gladly kill Nale, has more to lose than gain if he does it behind Tarquin's back.
pendell
2013-03-20, 09:02 AM
There's still the whole "I've worked with the guys who have the ritual" thing.
WHO has the ritual? The fiends? Team Evil? I can't see any of these beings who wouldn't be equally willing to deal directly with Tarquin and cut out the middleman. It's not like there's anyone in-comic who considers Nale to be such a great asset as to be irreplaceable. Except Tarquin, of course, because Nale is his flesh and blood.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
It's not like there's anyone in-comic who considers Nale to be such a great asset as to be irreplaceable. Except Tarquin, of course, because Nale is his flesh and blood.
And the IFCC. Because no one is quite as stupid as Nale.
pendell
2013-03-20, 09:09 AM
Does the IFCC have the ritual? We've confirmed that Team Evil does. The IFCC may need to steal the ritual from the Dark One or his servants. Just because they're both evil doesn't necessarily mean they're allied.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
Quote edited in to make it clearer what I was responding to. :smalltongue:
Gift Jeraff
2013-03-20, 09:12 AM
WHO has the ritual? The fiends? Team Evil? I can't see any of these beings who wouldn't be equally willing to deal directly with Tarquin and cut out the middleman. It's not like there's anyone in-comic who considers Nale to be such a great asset as to be irreplaceable. Except Tarquin, of course, because Nale is his flesh and blood.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
Durkon doesn't know that.
pendell
2013-03-20, 09:28 AM
No, but he DOES know the lore of the sapphire guard. He can also recount all his dealings with Xykon up to this point.
What will Tarquin learn from this?
1) He will learn that there is a device in the basement of this dungeon of potentially apocalyptic power.
2) Team Evil is on its way to control and harness this power for their own ends.
So, what are Tarquin's options?
1) Ally with Team Evil and have a place in their New World Order. Nale was evidently hired by Xykon at some point in the past, so he may be useful as a go-between.
2) Oppose team evil. This will mean allying with such OOTS as is left, or going it alone.
In the case of action 2, I see Nale in the role of "Bait". Given his previous attempts at pointless revenge, I would not trust him to stick to the mission, as opposed to a pointless betrayal at the wrong moment.
Also, in this second case, Nale has had dealing with Xykon in the past. His insight may be useful.
Actually, now that we know Malack is a vampire, the question arises: Why didn't Malack simply dominate Nale with his Gaze and compel him to reveal all?
The only conclusion I can draw from this is that Nale must have a tolerably high will save. Wonder if that's been mentioned in class and level geekery?
At any rate, Nale has not yet completely outlived his usefulness. But I believe that point is drawing close, at least from Malack's point of view.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
Mike Havran
2013-03-20, 09:58 AM
The only reason why Nale's skull doesn't adorn Malack's chapel is that he persuaded T&M he can help them get the ritual from "some other guys who are in for the gates. I worked with them before". But Malack's Little Brother can now tell them that:
1. Xykon is extremely dangerous business. Chaotic Evil epic spellcaster and all that, he has a powerful cleric as a lieutenant.
2. Nale has never really been working with Xykon. Durkula might remember Nale worked for Xykon long time ago, but ever since Dorukan's Dungeon the two teams were acting separately.
So Tarquin may decide to try to cooperate with Xykon (which would be very stupid but Tarquin can still fall for it), or go against him. Either way, Nale is useless to them as he'll betray them as soon the situation starts to look grim.
No, but he DOES know the lore of the sapphire guard. He can also recount all his dealings with Xykon up to this point.
What will Tarquin learn from this?
1) He will learn that there is a device in the basement of this dungeon of potentially apocalyptic power.
He already knows this. Nale told him about the Gates. Granted, we don't know how much detail Nale told him, because it was largely off-panel, but he certainly has the general information.
2) Team Evil is on its way to control and harness this power for their own ends.
Durkon doesn't know this. As best we can tell, Hinjo hadn't had the opportunity to inform the OotS that Team Evil was on the move. As far as they know, Xykon and company are still searching for the phylactery.
The most that Durkon can tell Tarquin that Nale hasn't already told him (again, as far as we can tell) is just how powerful and dangerous Team Evil actually is.
So, what are Tarquin's options?
1) Ally with Team Evil and have a place in their New World Order. Nale was evidently hired by Xykon at some point in the past, so he may be useful as a go-between.
2) Oppose team evil. This will mean allying with such OOTS as is left, or going it alone.
In the case of action 2, I see Nale in the role of "Bait". Given his previous attempts at pointless revenge, I would not trust him to stick to the mission, as opposed to a pointless betrayal at the wrong moment.
Also, in this second case, Nale has had dealing with Xykon in the past. His insight may be useful.
Actually, now that we know Malack is a vampire, the question arises: Why didn't Malack simply dominate Nale with his Gaze and compel him to reveal all?
The only conclusion I can draw from this is that Nale must have a tolerably high will save. Wonder if that's been mentioned in class and level geekery?
Malack wasn't interested in learning anything from Nale. That was all Tarquin. Since Malack wasn't interested in anything Nale had to say, there was no reason for him to try to compel him to talk, so I don't think we can draw any conclusions about Nale's will save from this.
At any rate, Nale has not yet completely outlived his usefulness. But I believe that point is drawing close, at least from Malack's point of view.
I don't think Nale has had any usefulness from Malack's POV. Malack is just going along with Tarquin on this.
I don't think Nale has had any usefulness from Malack's POV. Malack is just going along with Tarquin on this.
You know, I generally think the "fixed that for you" thing is really obnoxious.
For that reason, and that reason alone, I am not editing this part of your post to say, "I don't think Nale has had any usefulness ever in his life" and saying "Fixed that for you."
Gift Jeraff
2013-03-20, 10:26 AM
You know, I generally think the "fixed that for you" thing is really obnoxious.
For that reason, and that reason alone, I am not editing this part of your post to say, "I don't think Nale has had any usefulness ever in his life" and saying "Fixed that for you."
He opposes Tarquin. I'd think you of all people would at least appreciate that about him. :smalltongue:
Don't kid yourself the way Nale kids himself. He "opposes" Tarquin like Tsukiko's wights "opposed" Redcloak.
Morty
2013-03-20, 10:38 AM
Hey, Nale isn't completely useless. He, uh... yeah, I got nothing.
I agree that the situation might be quickly approaching the point there he's completely expendable to everyone involved. And with Sabine banished to the Abyss, there's little he can do if Tarquin decides to kill him, or more likely allow Malack to kill him.
notaro
2013-03-20, 10:41 AM
Durkon doesn't know this. As best we can tell, Hinjo hadn't had the opportunity to inform the OotS that Team Evil was on the move. As far as they know, Xykon and company are still searching for the phylactery.
They may not know Xykon is on the way but they certainly have it in mind as a possibility.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html - Panel 4
Roland Itiative
2013-03-20, 10:48 AM
The way I see it, Tarquin really doesn't want to get Nale killed. The way he acted right before Nale spilled the beans about the Gate made it seen like he was just looking for a breach that would allow him to convince Malack to change his mind. It's likely that, even if vampire Durkon makes Nale completely redundant to their plans, Tarquin will find a way to manipulate Malack once more.
pendell
2013-03-20, 10:55 AM
Durkon doesn't know this. As best we can tell, Hinjo hadn't had the opportunity to inform the OotS that Team Evil was on the move. As far as they know, Xykon and company are still searching for the phylactery.
Wait, wait, wait. Yes, Durkon DOES know this. Roy and company visited the Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), and the oracle told them Xykon and co. are going to Girard's gate. It was fundamental to their plans. The entire order was briefed on the mission to Girard's gate, and why, before the Azure City interlude.
Durkon knows it. Which means Tarquin and Malack can become aware of it as well, provided Malack simply instructs Durkon to tell him everything he knows.
Assuming Durkon doesn't play silly games and start reeling off an encyclopedia. But why would Vampire Durkon NOT want Malack and Tarquin to know that an epic-level lich is coming to that very location?
Respectfully,
Brian P.
Wait, wait, wait. Yes, Durkon DOES know this. Roy and company visited the Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), and the oracle told them Xykon and co. are going to Girard's gate. It was fundamental to their plans. The entire order was briefed on the mission to Girard's gate, and why, before the Azure City interlude.
Durkon knows it. Which means Tarquin and Malack can become aware of it as well, provided Malack simply instructs Durkon to tell him everything he knows.
Assuming Durkon doesn't play silly games and start reeling off an encyclopedia. But why would Vampire Durkon NOT want Malack and Tarquin to know that an epic-level lich is coming to that very location?
Respectfully,
Brian P.
Yes, Durkon knows that Xykon is going to be coming at some point. But read what I posted again--he doesn't know that Team Evil is actually on the move right now.
Mike Havran
2013-03-20, 12:03 PM
Yes, Durkon knows that Xykon is going to be coming at some point. But read what I posted again--he doesn't know that Team Evil is actually on the move right now.
He did think it was a reasonable possibility here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0747.html).
And I don't think Tarquin cares for Nale that much. Since Elan showed up, Nale's presence may well remind Tarquin that as a parent, he failed big time.
Adanedhel
2013-03-20, 12:09 PM
I don't think Nale has had any usefulness ever in his life
Well; he is a fearless Vampire killer?
FlawedParadigm
2013-03-20, 12:52 PM
Nale's not entirely useless. He's high enough level to be worth decent XP to whomsoever defeats/kills him. Defeating him several times over is a pretty good source of XP. He's kind of like a farmable quest.
mrzomby
2013-03-20, 01:01 PM
This presumes that Nale hasn't actually told them everything he knows about the gates, which I don't believe because he was at Tarquin's mercy and he knew it.
He told them enough about the gate for them to realize it's a powerful artifact, and essentially said he was withholding information(that he doesn't and cannot have/gain) about the rituals of the gate.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html
theNater
2013-03-21, 02:39 AM
1) Ally with Team Evil and have a place in their New World Order. Nale was evidently hired by Xykon at some point in the past, so he may be useful as a go-between.
2) Oppose team evil. This will mean allying with such OOTS as is left, or going it alone.
In the case of action 2, I see Nale in the role of "Bait". Given his previous attempts at pointless revenge, I would not trust him to stick to the mission, as opposed to a pointless betrayal at the wrong moment.
Also, in this second case, Nale has had dealing with Xykon in the past. His insight may be useful.
Tarquin could fake plan 1 as a part of running plan 2. Doing so would make Nale triply useful, as go-between, bait, and for insight. If Tarquin plays it subtly enough, he might even be able to fool Nale into thinking it's plan 1, meaning Nale wouldn't have a reason to turn on Tarquin because he doesn't know he's being used as bait.
Regardless of methodology, however, Nale's insight into Xykon's personality and the social dynamics of Team Evil is primarily what he brings to the table. He's had at least one conversation with Xykon, which IIRC puts him ahead of Durkon.
theinsulabot
2013-03-21, 03:02 AM
Actually I found myself wondering the opposite. Up until this point malack had three things his life was about, his relationship to Tarquin and co. His service to nergal, and pining for his children, he now has a fourth, his new found relationship with his new "brother".
while I don't believe durkula will cause malack to forget his old children, the possibility that malack will overlook nale arises as he is now more preoccupied.
Its nale might be in a comparatively of he can keep himself from making anymore dumb ass remarks like "hows the family"
Obscure Blade
2013-03-21, 05:05 AM
I recall the exchange in the 4th panel of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html) comic where calms down Malack's hostility to Nale with "Come on Mal. Try to look forward to the end of the mission." I've felt for some time that line was likely foreshadowing for a future "you have outlived your usefulness" moment for Nale.
Tarquin: "Malack? Mission's over."
Malack: "Ah yes, Nale, where was I in our earlier interrupted conversation? Oh, yes, I recall it now! NERGAL WILL EAT YOUR SOUL!!"
whitelaughter
2013-03-21, 06:14 AM
Durkula is unlikely to realise the value of his information.
Firstly, he isn't aware of how Nale bartered for his life.
Secondly, he doesn't know that Nale hasn't been working for Xykon.
So while Tarquin and Malak no longer need Nale, they don't know that they no longer need him.
kickassfrog
2013-03-21, 08:07 AM
Well, Tarquin, as evil as he is, is extremely dramatic guy. No matter how much Nale is useless to him, he wouldn't kill him just like that. You know, evil twin/good twin to Elan. Tarquin doesn't need any excuse to keep him alive, he's a de facto leader of the BE, and Malack, who would gladly kill Nale, has more to lose than gain if he does it behind Tarquin's back.
Tarquin might kill Nale so he can be Elan's main nemesis, and to give him a whole "you killed my brother" thing going on.
But then, I've pretty much given up trying to predict what The Giant will do next. It's always something I failed to anticipate.
JSSheridan
2013-03-21, 09:20 AM
Nale's not entirely useless. He's high enough level to be worth decent XP to whomsoever defeats/kills him. Defeating him several times over is a pretty good source of XP. He's kind of like a farmable quest.
So defeating the Linear Guild is a repeatable quest now?
I knew MMO's were influencing this comic.
That is an additional ready for Tarquin to finish Nale off though.
FlawedParadigm
2013-03-21, 11:07 AM
So defeating the Linear Guild is a repeatable quest now?
Has been for awhile now, near as I can tell. Granted, he's apparently related to the IFCC's plans (and really, always has been; Sabine's first appearance has her mentioning she's grooming his eeeeevil potential for the men downstairs) in some fashion, so short of blowing those plans out of the water, he's narratively guaranteed to be around awhile longer.
Rich isn't George R. R. Martin and so far hasn't killed off anyone who didn't fulfill their all their plot threads (without the intent of bringing them back.)
Mind you, I like Rich's writing too, and the way he wraps these sorts of things up, but I can kind of sit back and watch characters like Nale without any drama because I know he's "safe" for now. I imagine Rich will eventually kill off someone important with dangling plot threads, but so far, no go.
Rich likes challenging himself as a writer, as he frequently mentions in the book commentaries - Belkar, for example, is safe until he has a moment so awesome/moving that almost everyone is forced to care about him, even if just for one moment. 870 foreshadowed that for anyone who didn't see it coming before. Just like he challenged himself with Miko as a LG antagonist, so too I imagine he tasked himself making us like an unrepentant killer for just a moment.
But I think I'll shut up now before I rattle off reasons as to who has plot armour and why so I don't go ruining anyone else's suspense.
SinsI
2013-03-21, 01:19 PM
Actually, since Mallack is a Vampire - i don't understand why is Nale not Dominated or turned into a Vampire Spawn already; it's not like his abilities or knowledge would diminish if he were a completely loyal slave instead of a treacherous backstabbing temporary ally...
JackRose
2013-03-21, 01:27 PM
Actually, since Mallack is a Vampire - i don't understand why is Nale not Dominated or turned into a Vampire Spawn already; it's not like his abilities or knowledge would diminish if he were a completely loyal slave instead of a treacherous backstabbing temporary ally...
Well, he's not turned into a Vampire Spawn because for Malack that's a very emotional process and making Nale into his 'child' would just make him feel bad. He's not Dominated because... behaving in a sensible, competent, and not overly complicated manner is against Nale's basic nature, and would provoke an awful lot of saves?
FlawedParadigm
2013-03-21, 01:31 PM
Actually, since Mallack is a Vampire - i don't understand why is Nale not Dominated or turned into a Vampire Spawn already; it's not like his abilities or knowledge would diminish if he were a completely loyal slave instead of a treacherous backstabbing temporary ally...
I don't think Malack wants to see him alive, even subjugated. Plus Sorcerer has to be his highest class (needs at least 8 levels for Dimension Door, he's got three classes, and is almost certainly above level 16 at this point) so he may have a halfway decent Will save.
SinsI
2013-03-21, 01:50 PM
Saves doesn't matter if you have unlimited attempts...
And being his "child" would be very ironic.
FlawedParadigm
2013-03-21, 02:16 PM
Saves doesn't matter if you have unlimited attempts...
And being his "child" would be very ironic.
Clever. However, there's one number you failed to include in your analysis. Malack's hit point total. Provided Nale knows of Malack's nature - and almost certainly he does - he can come prepared to vanquish Malack before failing a save, if his save is good enough to matter.
SavageWombat
2013-03-21, 05:15 PM
Nale's a plot device character - but it's Elan's plot. He won't die until it's a scene that changes or resolves Elan's character development.
SinsI
2013-03-22, 12:32 PM
Clever. However, there's one number you failed to include in your analysis. Malack's hit point total. Provided Nale knows of Malack's nature - and almost certainly he does - he can come prepared to vanquish Malack before failing a save, if his save is good enough to matter.
Except that he was at Tarquin's mercy not so long ago, and it was a perfect moment for some Vampirisation...
FlawedParadigm
2013-03-22, 12:49 PM
Except that he was at Tarquin's mercy not so long ago, and it was a perfect moment for some Vampirisation...
Not if he wanted to keep his vampiric nature secret from the half-dozen strangers around, let alone anyone else at the palace who doesn't know, like the lowly guards and such.
Malack views his vampire creations as his children. Why on earth would he turn his mortal enemy, someone he wants actually dead, into one of them?
"would be very ironic."
And? Is there any indication Malack would consider that a positive reason to, much less such a strong positive reason as to override all the reasons he has not to?
JustWantedToSay
2013-03-22, 01:16 PM
I think Malack would want to somehow keep Nale's corpse around and under his protection to prevent resurrection. Undead would be one way to accomplish that. No evidence yet that he's high enough level to soul-bind.
OTOH, SoD might suggest that there are some lv 17 clerics available for hire.
OTOH, SoD might suggest that there are some lv 17 clerics available for hire.
How does it suggest that?
kickassfrog
2013-03-22, 02:22 PM
Rich likes challenging himself as a writer, as he frequently mentions in the book commentaries - Belkar, for example, is safe until he has a moment so awesome/moving that almost everyone is forced to care about him, even if just for one moment. 870 foreshadowed that for anyone who didn't see it coming before.
But that was this comic.
Belkar, please don't die before you have a chance to redeem yourself. Or at least do it in a totally awesome manner worthy of the guy who just talked Roy back into being team leader.
FlawedParadigm
2013-03-22, 02:43 PM
But that was this comic.
Belkar, please don't die before you have a chance to redeem yourself. Or at least do it in a totally awesome manner worthy of the guy who just talked Roy back into being team leader.
Yeah, thing is, I posted that yesterday. I am apparently a future psychic. Although I think this is just foreshadowing an even more awesome moment later.
JustWantedToSay
2013-03-22, 02:53 PM
How does it suggest that?
Page 102:
I've had clerics trying to resurrect (Lirian) for years, and we never could find her soul.
Note that Lirian's body was in always in Xykon's possesion, therefore the clerics would have to be attempting a true resurrection.
Obscure Blade
2013-03-22, 02:56 PM
I think Malack would want to somehow keep Nale's corpse around and under his protection to prevent resurrection. Undead would be one way to accomplish that.
Of course, he could and probably would pick another form of undead than vampire for that.
SavageWombat
2013-03-22, 02:59 PM
I remember that there are other ways to prevent resurrection that don't involve creating undead, and that a death cleric would probably have access to something. That nifty staff probably has one.
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