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Nolthestranger
2013-03-20, 12:22 PM
Foreword : This is obviously not here for personal gratification, and clearly needs co-writing help, be it on those weapons, on new, on mechanics, or on armor's Dr, which i have yet to rethink

I've read many articles about this sorts of projects, but i often found them lacking, (or maybe i just didn't find them at all) therefore, here i am :

0. Puting it all in place
First of all, to better understand how, and why i'm trying to modify these here are the following houserules that i usually apply :

- PC's will be low powered mages (highly specialized) and have medium bab to compensate
As an example : i'm using the spell points variant, and they only regenerate 10% per 8h of sleep/prayer/meditation. Additional points come from various RP mechanics like soul drain or dispelling, depending on the archetype they chose.

- High bab is only for highly trained Warriors, and/or bbeg
- Using the Dr alternate rule for armor (UA)
- Low magic environment (+3 weapons are endgame gear)
- Game runing from lvl 1 to 10/14
- Players are (oh so very) far from munchkins

This in mind, i wanted a new approach to combat, something that would favor those who came prepared, and could ruin a easy looking fight.
I also wanted new and easy to use options (ever tried to make a new player grapple ?)

I was thinking about:
- Lowering Dr's potency by giving armors weaknesses
Example: leather/hide armor was never good for anything but blocking slashing strikes, therefore, it would get: "resistance: slashing (2)" and everything else would just go right through it,
or Dr 2/piercing, Bludg, that way, magic would be accounted for.
Still to do, but likely on another post.

- Giving weapons special proprieties, not magical, but allowing for more strategic gearing, and not "oh look this has higher damage, send it my way"
That's why you supposedly came here for, remember ?

-Adding new mechanics for Bullrush, disarm, feint, and trip, using opposed skill rolls with
Trip vs balance
Feint vs discipline
Disarm vs discipline
Bullrush vs balance

(It’s actually in beta phase, and needs balance/input, but i’m tired of seeing my BSF taking useless skills in which nearly everyone will outclass him, just for the filling), it'll also likely be on another topic.

- Still searching for a decent parry rule

- Removing the skill improvement system, most notably class skills and non-class skills, and giving each player a “pool of potential”, from which they may use points to improve a skill:
The hard way: by using it untrained
The costy way: by hiring a trainer (3h and 50-100gp per points
Many skills have been combined, a la Pathfinder.
So far it’s been a success, and we got to avoid class dependent clichés

That actually works, i'll make a simpler explanation if someone asks for it.


I. The grand balancing list :
Since every decent balancing/alterating needs proof, i'll just go and make mine up :
Here is a list of PHB weapons and their estimated damage / round (including eventual critical hits)

Here is the proper math if you wanna double check/add your own creations
Average damage = (minimum damage + maximum damage)/2 X (20-critical threat range) + [critical modifierx(minimum damage + maximum damage)/2] x critical threat range


Warning : If you think this world is balanced, well you're in for a treat


Light weapons :
Average : 3.1/hit
Dagger : 2.75 damage/hit, +2 to conceal dagger
Punching dagger : 2.75/hit
Mace : 3.6/hit
Sickle : 3.6/hit may trip

One handed weapons :
Morningstar : 4.7/hit, bludge and pierc
Shortspear : 3.6/hit, may be thrown up to 20ft
These were not taken into account, because of their special capacity, which i first had to evaluate.

Two handed melee weapons :
Long spear : 4.95/hit restricted to 10Ft range
Quarterstaff : 3.6/hit may be used to TWF

Ranged weapons :
Crossbow, heavy : 6.05/hit, Requires bolts, 120ft range, full round reload
Crossbow, light : 4.95/hit, Requires bolts, 80ft range, move reload
Darts : 2.6/hit 20ft
Javelin : 3.6/hit 30ft range
Sling : 2.6/hit 50ft range

Martial
Light Melee Weapons :
Average : 3.25/hit
Throwing axe : 3.6/hit 10ft range
Light hammer : 2.6/hit
Hand axe : 3.8/hit
Kukri : 2.8/hit
Sword, short : 3.8/hit

One handed :
Average : 4.8/hit
Battle axe : 4.8/hit
Flail : 4.7/hit +2 to disarm, may trip
Longsword : 4.8/hit
Pick, heavy : 5.7/hit
Rapier : 4.0/hit
Trident : 4.7/hit, 10ft reach
Warhammer : 4.95/hit

Two handed :
Average 6.2/hit
Falchion : 5.75/hit
Glaive : 6.05/hit, 10ft reach
Great axe : 7.1/hit
Flail heavy : 6.05/hit +2 to disarm, may trip
Greatsword : 7.7/hit
Guisarme : 5.5/hit, may trip, 10ft reach
Scythe : 5.75/hit

Ranged weapons :
Longbow : 4.95/hit 100ft range, move reload
Longbow, composite : 4.95/hit 110ft range, adds str to damage, move reload
Shortbow, composite : 3.85/hit 70ft range, adds str to damage, move reload
Hand crossbow : 2.75/hit, 30ft range


As you may see, some were not included in the list, and it does not account for price, or weight, or potential TWF.

II. Results
Here is what i can sum up :

Average damage :
1H Light : 3.17/hit
1H Normal : 4.8/hit
2H damage : 6.2/hit
Ranged : 4.2/hit for 100ft range

2H is rewarding, seems legit since you give up the shield
1H light is weaker, since it TWF a bit better (though TWF sucks)

If we want to balance it all, we need a table, to effectively measure a weapons average "Power level"

Here is my alpha version, most of it was made from comparing PHB's base weapons :
Base Power level = Average damage per round

Here are special bonus that alter Power level:

Average damage per round/2 = Full round reload
Since you shoot twice less, your Damage per round gets to be divded by 2, thus allowing for harder blows

+1 Power level = +20ft range (ammo needed)
Deduced from bows

+1 Power level = +10ft (thrown and reusable)
Actually home made since there was nothing logical here.

+1 Power level = Reach 10ft I'm enclined to lower this to a +0.5 or even a 0, since it can be as much a boon than a pain

+1 Power level = Two damage type (Bludg + pierc)

+1 Power level = +2 to one comp
This one came pretty easily, doesn't mean it's balanced though

+1 Power level = +1 overall bonus (+1 hit)
Thats the easiest, since you work your way through average damage per round. considering +1hit is worth +1 damage however is still widely negotiable.

Here's what i'm thinking about adding :
+1 Power level for +2 situational bonus (+2hit vs light armored)
Sure, they'll use said weapon only against those situational ennemies, but that's the point of differentiating them isn't it ?

+1 Power level for a feat (based on cleave and Weapon focus)
I know, i know, feats aren't all born equal, especially thoughness and Wf, but i'll try to limit this to low end feats, and special attack moves

+1 Power level = +3 Initiative bonus
Though the idea is promising, i haven't found where to use it yet

-1 Power level = -2 situational bonus
Any thing you can get to amp your PL, may be used at the same rate against you !

What i'd like to implement/ideas :
Bonus damage on critical
A smart move, but it creates a potential abuse with threat highering feats (granted a minimal abuse, but we gentlement are here about perfect balance are we not ?


Overall example : Kukri is obviously a left out weapon, 2.6 Power level when compared to 3.1 average light, it makes a diference. If i were to give it +1 to hit medium armors, it'd even it (2.6 + 0.5 for +1 situational bonus = 3.1)
Yes it's an example, no i don't want to start fluffing out why against medium armors only, maybe it's just about getting between the cracks !


III. Weapon building
Now here's what i need from my weapons :
I want Ranged fighting to be stronger; i want people to think "oh crap a heavy crossbow"
If 2H gets more damage, then 1H must get utility, or different fighting style bonus (disarm, trip, parry..)

My estimated average Power level should be :
Light 1H : 3.5/hit
Normal 1H : 5/hit
2H : 6.5/hit
Ranged : 5.5/hit for 100ft
Thrown : 3.5/hit for 30ft

Ranged should hit harder than 1H, but not as hard as 2H.
With this a 2h crossbow should score 11 average damage once every two rounds

Here's what i had in mind, not bothering with exotic and proficiencies

Red is what i had a really hard time balancing
Orange is explenations, when i felt like it needed some


“Hand to hand”
Claws: 1d4 piercing damage, 19-20x2, inflicts an additional 1d4+1/2 Strengh if two hits connect in a round

Moon crescent : 1d4 Slashing damage, inflicts an additional 1d2 bleed if two hits connect in a round. This bleeding effect is weak and will last for 5 rounds, or until a successful Dc 15 heal check.

Steel gloves : 1d4 Bludgeoning damage, should two hits connect in a row, the target become shakened for a round (–2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks)

Wrist blade : 1d4 slashing damage, +2 on checks made to conceal, quick draw



"Light one handed"
Kriss : 1d4-1 piercing damage, inflicts an additional 1d2 bleeding damage for 5 rounds, each time damages are successfully dealt.
This bleeding effect is weak and will last for 5 rounds, or until a successful Dc 15 heal check is made as a full round action.
This is actually hard to judge : how long does bleeding lasts on average ? without that, there can be no precise balancing

Dagger : 1d4 slashing Or piercing damage, 19–20/x2, May deliver a coup de grâce as a move action.

Dented sword :1d6 slashing damage, 19–20/×2, -1 to hit, adds a bonus 1d4 bleeding on a confirmed critical strike.
This bleeding effect is weak and will last for 5 rounds, or until a successful Dc 15 heal check.

Light hammer : 1d6 bludgeoning damage, 20 x2,

Short sword: 1d6 slashing damage, 20 x2, +2 initiative.
The short sword and light hammer are actually the closest to my 3.5 average damage chart, and though i'd like to do more than just nerf the critical chance, i can't without lowering the damage to d4, which would kill the only thing seperating them from the other light weapons. I decided to give one +2 init, and the other , which, despite making them "overpowered" for their tier helps individualising them

Jitte :1 bludgeoning damage, 20x2, +1 to parry, +4 to disarm attempts ; free disarm attempt after parrying with a jitte.




"One handed"
Kama: 1d6 slashing and piercing damage, +1 to hit on light armored targets.

Morgenstern: 1d8 bludgeoning and piercing damage,
Ill balanced : a morningstar is easier to drop due to it's heavy head, and suffers à -2 penalty to discipline on disarming attempts against the wielder.

(Two handed) Katana : 1d10 slashing damage, 19–20/x2, +2 hit on light, -2 on heavy.

Rapier : 1d6 slashing damage, 18–20/×2, +2 on parry attempts.



"Two handed"
Double sword : 1d8/1d8 slashing or piercing, 19-20 x2, Reduces TWF penalties by 2 points if hitting a different enemy with the second strike, offers a +1 Ac deflection bonus against one selected ennemy.

2H axe : 2d6 slashing damage, 20x3, Cleave resticted to targets already in direct contact (no 5ft step)

Oversized : The two handed axe is heavy and hardly balanced at all, resulting in a -4 penalty to hit if the bearer has moved this round. (stacking with charge bonus).
I wanted to give a heavy feel to 2h weapons, but not strictly restict mouvement ; i'm counting this as a -2 situational malus to power level

Maul : 1d10 bludgeoning damage, 19-20x2, Oversized, Momentum.

Momentum : Every time an attack misses it's target, but still manages to hit the armor Ac (touch attack), this weapon still deals half damage from the impact.
This one was born on this forum, only i can't remember it's father, i'm counting it as a +2 power level, wich cancels the oversized malus on the maul.

Kusarigama : 1d6/1d4 slashing/bludgeoning , 15ft reach, +3 on trip attempt, +1 on disarm attempt. Bonus on trip only appliable if the target was hit with the weight right before the attempt. Considered a light weapon in regards to TWF.
Also know as the 2h fighter's swiss knife


"Others"
Blowgun : 1 piericing damage, 19-20x2 20ft range, +1dc of applied poison, +2dc on a critical strike, Bee sting.

Bee sting : Automaticly threatens a critical hit on unarmored targets.
I considered this a +2 power level, It's extremely potent, but also very situational ; i'm thinking about adding another light bonus like
"Spending a full round action to line up the perfect shot, you may ignore Dr on light and medium armors"

Whip : 1d3 non leathal damage, 20x2, 10ft range, +1 on trip attempt, +3 on disarm attempt. Bonus only appliable if the action was initiated by a succesfull hit with the whip.

Scorpion whip : 1d3 piercing damage, 20x2, a successful hit delivers the content of the sting, adding +1 to it's dc, and +1 to it's damage if appliable ; doubles on a critical hit. Reloading the sting is a full round action.

Short barreled Dragoon pistol : 1d10 piercing damage, 20x2, light weapon in regard to TWF, standard action to reload, short barreled

Short barreled : What Dragoon pistol have in penetration, they loose in precision, especially when firing on an opponent engaged in melee with a friendly. Normal -4 penalty raises to -6 when shooying into a melee.

Long barreled Dragoon pistol: 2d8 piercing damage, 20x2, full round reload, 70ft range, +2 penetration bonus to hit.

Flintlock rifle : 3d6 piercing damage, 20x3, 2x full round reload, 100ft, +3 penetration bonus to hit.
Note : This is the only weapon which hits an average of 11.55 damage, and i therefore do not recommend it before lvl 3, unless you want to one-shot a random Pc right off the first round. (Which is fine by me, i don't like unlucky players anyway !



Bows :
Light : 1d6 piercing damage, 20x3, 60ft range, rapid reload (free action), , shot on the run.

Rapid reload : may reload as a free action.

Rapid shot : May take an additional shot at max bab as part of a full round attack action, pending -2 hit penalty to all attacks this round.

Shot on the run : may move before and after firing, as long as not exceeding the allowed movement.
I wanted my short bow to be as powerfull as any other bow, but with a clear defined role, not just a poor man's longbow, but a kiting force to be reckoned. According to my power calculations, it is now.

Longbow : 1d8 piercing damage, 20x3, 90ft range, movement action reload, Calibrating shot.

Calibrating shot : Shots after shots, your accuracy improves, as you adjust your aim from the previous arrow. Each round spent immobile, and firing adds a cumulative accuracy bonus of +1 to hit. Stacks up to 5 times (?).

Composite longbow : 1d8 piercing damage, 20x3, 100ft range, move action reload, overdraw.

Overdraw : You may spend a full round action overdrawing your bow's string, effectively doubling the added strengh bonus to damage.
I feel like some of you will find this underpowered, in consideration to multiple attack routines, but in my world, where people get 2 attacks on average at max lvl, three if 100% magic less warrior, this offers a neat choice to overcome high Dr.

In the end i have three bows, each conceived for a particular purpose, be it speed, precision or power.



Crossbows :

Wrist crossbow : 1d4 piercing damage, 19-20x2, 30ft range, Movement action reload. Takes a free action to unfold, but a simple action to fold back in the bracer.

Light : 1d10 piercing damage, 19-20x2, 50ft range, Simple action reload, +1 penetration bonus to hit

Heavy : 2d6 piercing damage, 20x2, 80ft range, Full round action reload, +2 penetration bonus to hit, Precise shot.

Precise shot : no -4 hit penalty for shooting in a melee.

I lowered the crossbows overall range, to maintain bow superirity here (ballistic shooting and all), does it look too short now ?



Throwing weapons :
Flying daggers : Can be quick drawed and thrown in respond to an opponent 15ft around you triggering an Aoo ; +2 to hit on ranged aoo.

Throwing axe :1d6 slashing damage, 20x2, Adds strengh to damage
Throwing two axes at the same target, as part of a TWF action may be done with only a -2/-2 malus to hit, as with the use of the Two Weapon fighting feat.

Bolas : 1 non lethal damage, 20ft range, 19-20x2, +5 on trip attempts made as part of the attack action ; A creature tripped by a bolas falls prone, and must succed a Dc 20 (?) escape artist check, or a Dc 18 strengh check, as part of a full round action. A critical hit raises the Dc by 2.
Bolas are inefective against creatures larger than their size.



10Ft range
Spear : 1d8 piercing damage, 20x3, 10ft reach, Powerful charge, Overextend

Powerful charge : Deals another 1d8 (for medium spear) piercing damage on a succesful charge

Overextend : You may extend your reach to 15ft and deal a single strike at your full bab, or use the thrusting power set in motion to inflict 2d6 bonus damage at your regular 10ft range. Either way you are flat footed until next round, and provoke aoo from threatning ennemies.

This one was borrowed in essence from -"The Demented one", i'm still not sure about damage potential yet (average 10 damage at lvl 1)

Naginata : 1d8 slashing damage, 20x3, 10ft reach, Sweeping strike, +2 to trip attempts.

Sweeping strike : As a full round action, you may strike up to three adjacent targets at your full bab ; roll hit separately. Each strike beyond the first suffers from a cumulative -3 to hit, unless the previous ennemy was dropped by the attack.

Bo : 1d8 bludgeoning damage, 20x3, 10ft range, +2 to jumps check made in conjunction with the Bo, Crushing strike.

Crushing strike : Running towards an ennemy, you leap at the last second, using the momentum to your advantage, and delivering a downward blow to your unsuspecting opponent.
As part of a charge action, you may make a jump check, and add 1/4 the result as bonus damage. (assuming lvl 1 : 4 ranks + average 2 str bonus + 2bo bonus +10 on dice roll = 4.5 average damage)



-Nol

Mighty_Chicken
2013-03-20, 06:54 PM
I really like it, you know. Can't PEACH it right now, but I like that most features are situational: in other words, you're not rebuilding the system, just adding options. This is great because then anyone can test it, or at least imagine how it would work in his own game.

I see not a single weapon has a Initiative bonus or penalty. Why not? That was the greatest difference between weapons in AD&D IIRC.

I'm houseruling that light weapons have +1 initiative bonus regardless, and one handed weapons have +1 initiative bonus when single handed/no shield. But now I see it could be better than that.

I always think daggers should be generally weaker than everything else, but very vicious when connected correctly. For example, I think its damage dice for criticals should be a d10... but, maybe, only if the character is proficient with it as a Martial Weapon?

Maybe if there is something as "Weapon use" feats that unlock a group of weapon's most potent utilities, you could go crazier with the potential of each thing. But apparently this isn't the direction you took... seems you don't want to require a feat for doing anything different of rolling d20's, which is D&D's biggest problem IMO.

Octopusapult
2013-03-20, 07:17 PM
I really like these altercations. I'd like to help with this project.

Could I suggest adding more to the list?

Thrown Hammer : Stun on critical hit & x3 damage.

Scythe : Full-attack allows character to hit 3 adjacent tiles in a sweeping motion. A critical hit, or an attack on a target which is being grappled can allow the scythe to hook into and remove layers of armor or shields.

Blunderbuss : +4 penetration bonus to hit heavies, 4 actions to reload (so two full turns), and a maximum range of 15ft. 3d6 DMG.

Folding Crossbow : A hand crossbow affixed to the wrist in a similar fashion to the Katar (punching dagger). While folded, the crossbow is easily concealed, but it must be unfolded to fire (unfolding it is a free action, but re-folding it takes the use of your other hand and a standard action.) This crossbow functions exactly like a Hand Crossbow, but can be fired from the wrist, meaning you can still hold a sword and shield while operating it.

---

Hope you like these and can use them. If you just like the concept, then feel free to alter it as you wish, no harm done. XD

The only minor question I have is, did you mean to spell it "Flying D'agger" in the Thrown Weapon section?

Nolthestranger
2013-03-21, 10:42 AM
Feedback ! sweet !

@Mighty_Chicken :
I'll think about tooling with crit mechanics, hadn't thought of it ; same thing for init bonus, i'll add it to "the grand balancing list"

As for feat unlocking bonus, i was thinking about it, but i don't want my players to be locked with one weapon because they "invested" a feat in it, maybe give 1.5x or 1.2x the bonus for "mastering" the weapon, be it through leveling with it or training with an elder ? needs more thinking.

@Octopusapult : Of course you may !
I'm gonna push this forward with The grand balancing list, then we'll work out new weapons !
(Short answer :
Automatic stun might be too powerfull, or require a fort save to be balanced, how about dazed or a 1round slow ?
I like the concept of adding attack moves, but i have a hard time picturing a scythe slashing through 3 people in a single move without killing one of them ^^
something like a rotating bullrush (90° or so) might be interesting... Could you think of some application for it ? maybe getting someone off à friends face, or back into an area of effect spell ?

Folding crossbow is definitely a go

Thanks for your time !

Octopusapult
2013-03-21, 01:32 PM
Automatic stun might be too powerfull, or require a fort save to be balanced, how about dazed or a 1round slow ?

I can see Dazed as being better, yeah.


I like the concept of adding attack moves, but i have a hard time picturing a scythe slashing through 3 people in a single move without killing one of them ^^

The way I've known a scythe to be used is for low sweeps at the legs. Namely because that's what the traditional farming tool was designed to do. But you make a good point about it probably not swinging clean through three people without killing at least one of them.


something like a rotating bullrush (90° or so) might be interesting... Could you think of some application for it ? maybe getting someone off à friends face, or back into an area of effect spell ?

I'm not %100 sure what you mean by a "rotating bull rush" but it sounds interesting.


Folding crossbow is definitely a go

It's a favorite of mine. :)

I have another submission as well.

Heavy Flintlock Pistol 2H, Flintlock pistol : +4 penetration bonus to hit heavies, full round reload. The Heavy Pistol is an early prototype that almost resembles a miniature cannon. The shot fired is accurate, but heavy, and tends not to travel very far in comparison to the other firearms (max range of 50-60ft) The combination of slow reload, low range, and weight requiring two hands, has given the practitioners of this weapon cause to affix a hatchet-like bayonet to the front end. (melee attacks made with the pistol are similar to those performed while using a one-handed axe in two hands.)

A rough concept, let me know what you think.


Thanks for your time !

No problem, I like the idea behind this thread.

Nolthestranger
2013-03-22, 04:50 PM
Edited the main post, to make understanding easier
I finished my initial weapon list, now it needs criticism and comments as to balance.

Everything shown is "balanced" towards my "average power level chart" (See I.)

I'll start adding new weapons like that scythe tomorow.



I can see Dazed as being better, yeah.


After a few try runs, and one of my monsters being stun locked by 3 hammer throwers, i've settled for a standard 1 round debuff, wich would not mean instant-death for a lvl 1 fight, it's less impressive, but probably better balance-wise, let me know what you think



I'm not %100 sure what you mean by a "rotating bull rush" but it sounds interesting.


Yeah, thats gonna be hard to explain :
"Pc" is facing "ennemy",
using and succeeding on that "rotating bullrush" would mean moving the ennemy
- from "in front of you" to "on your side" (90° movement equivalent to 10ft assuming medium pc)
- from "in front of you to "behind you" (180° movement)

Is it clearer ? if not i'll use my astounding paint skills



Heavy Flintlock Pistol 2H, Flintlock pistol : +4 penetration bonus to hit heavies, full round reload. The Heavy Pistol is an early prototype that almost resembles a miniature cannon. The shot fired is accurate, but heavy, and tends not to travel very far in comparison to the other firearms (max range of 50-60ft) The combination of slow reload, low range, and weight requiring two hands, has given the practitioners of this weapon cause to affix a hatchet-like bayonet to the front end. (melee attacks made with the pistol are similar to those performed while using a one-handed axe in two hands.)

Hmm, i was going for + X bonus vs Heavy armored, but could not provide the fluff as to why a leather shirt would fare better than a full plate casing ; i settled for standard +x hit againt all on some ranged weapons.

I also already reduced range on black powdered weapon, as a last resort balance ; the bayonet idea though is good, and i'd like to make a list of "add-ons" one could add to such a weapon (ammo clip/double barrel/silencer/bayonet..)

You seem a lot more fluent in fluff than i though (as you will undoubtly notice from it's quasi-absence on this thread), so if you feel like rewording, be my guest ^^



Blunderbuss : +4 penetration bonus to hit heavies, 4 actions to reload (so two full turns), and a maximum range of 15ft. 3d6 DMG.

I had tried to use a similar weapon in my last campaign, but it did not follow it's intended course, mine had a 2full round reload as well, and was already only used on the first round of combat, and tossed after, effectively giving a large and unwanted boost of power to the party.

How about 3d6 on a 15ft cone, with a 13-ish reflex save and a full round reload
Upgrades to make it last the levels could include :
-exploding ammo highering the Dc
-second barrel for more damage
-a feat on point blank use for a no save allowed ?

I enjoy the concept of weapons evolving to suit the needs, it helped create a bond with betwin the pc and his weapon of choice, and limited the "omgdneedneedneed" race to powerloot.

On the same level, weapon proficiecies as feat felt like a waste, so i went with "special trainning classes" with a weapons master, costing time, money and a good deal of roleplay to compensate. (thus why you won't see requierments on the list of "remade" weapons"

-N

Nolthestranger
2013-03-28, 03:03 PM
-Added a few weapons mostly to expand the "light" section, which felt light indeed, though it proved harder than expected to diversify with so little damage die available

Still hoping for critics / helps overall

(yes this kinda is a bump)