Mystic Theurge vs 2nd Multi

[Silvanoshei]

Poor poor Mystic Theurge. I always played a Mage/Cleric in 2nd edition, and found it pretty acceptable in terms of keeping up with the others who had single classes. I find 3.5 very lacking in terms of multi-classing. Seems only useful for those quick grab abilities and cherry pick the living daylights out of a select few classes.

Do you guys think 2nd editions multiclass system was better than 3.5? What went wrong and why is wizard/cleric and or Mystic Theurge leaving a very bad taste in party groups?

[Callin]

I loved the older versions of Multi-Classing. Heck even the humans ability to Dual Class was cool.

[SowZ]

Clerics know the entire spell list. Wizards can memorize every spell they find. Hence, dual classing for extra flexibility in casting classes isn't very smart. The game often levels up to higher levels. Casting classes get so many spells per day that by the time you could Theurge, if you run out of spells you are doing something wrong. So dual classing for bonus spells is sub-optimal. Rather, it is all about getting the high level spell slots. That is all that matters.

[Snowbluff]

You can enter the Theurge early on one side. The loss of one 1 level is usually worth the vastly improved spell list. People have been know to lose more CL for less spells without the free slots. :smalltongue:

[Silvanoshei]

Right right. I think we all know that MT and multiclassing in 3.5 is a huge mistake and only used for flavor and not for optimization. I was just wondering about your thoughts on 2nd edition vs the now sub-optimal routes of multi-classing. As far as I can remember, it wasn't as bad as 3.5.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are plenty of ways to get early entry into mystic theurge, you need 2nd level spells in both arcane and divine, plus the max skill ranks of a 3rd level character to qualify. You can easily do this as a 2nd level character with 2,000 xp, and only one level in each of your arcane and divine classes.

2nd level spells with only one level in each class:

Illumian with the Krau sigil and the feat Improved Sigil: Krau makes two of your 1st level spells count as 2nd level spells (one for each class). The Krau sigil also fixes your caster levels similar to Practiced Spellcaster, for both classes.
Sanctum Spell is a +0 spell slot metamagic feat that makes the affected spell count as one level higher per Heighten Spell, but only inside your designated sanctum. It has the reverse effect on spells cast with it outside your sanctum, without affecting the spell slot to cast it, so you could spend a 4th level slot to cast a 4th level spell that counts as a 3rd level spell for DCs and whether or not a Lesser Metamagic Rod can affect it and whether it can be put in a Spell Storing weapon.
Earth Spell is a feat in RoS that requires Earth Sense and Heighten Spell, and makes it so your Heightened spells are counted as +1 spell level higher and increases their caster level, but only when you're standing on stone or unworked dirt.
There are probably a dozen more, but the above are the most noteworthy due to their ironclad RAW support and ease of use.


3rd level character skill ranks with only one level in each class:
Take a Minor Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) (or intermediate/major if desired), and take your Bloodline level(s) after your 1st character level and before your 2nd character level. A 1st level character needs to gain 1,000 xp to gain a level. When you gain that level, you get a bloodline level which does not actually increase your character level, so you still count as a 1st level character. You need another 1,000 xp to gain your next level, if that one is also a bloodline level then you can repeat that as often as necessary. This way every bloodline level only costs you 1,000 xp instead of an entire character level, and each bloodline level increases your max skill ranks as though it was a character level, plus it increases your caster level and a few other things.

Cleric 1/ Bloodline 1/ Wizard 1 can go into Mystic Theurge when you combine it with one of the above early entry methods, as long as you use your Wizard skill points to finish getting all of its required skill ranks. That bloodline level doesn't count toward your character level, so at Mystic Theurge 1 you'll be a 3rd level character. You'll sometimes be a level behind the rest of the party, so you'll get more xp per encounter and eventually that 1,000 xp deficit will disappear.

These tricks work regardless of what arcane and divine classes you use. It works with Favored Soul + Sorcerer, or Wizard + Archivist, etc. as long as each of your chosen classes gets 1st level spells at its first level.

[Snowbluff]

You forgot Versatile Spellcaster being used to cast Heightened Spells. It should work just as well as Sanctum and Earth Spells. A lot more useful, too. The most common combinations for Theurging can meet the Spontaneous Casting requirement.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You forgot Versatile Spellcaster being used to cast Heightened Spells. It should work just as well as Sanctum and Earth Spells. A lot more useful, too. The most common combinations for Theurging can meet the Spontaneous Casting requirement.

Indeed, and there are far better hidden benefits to this as well:

Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend spell slots from one class to cast spells you know from the other class' spell list. Something like Sorcerer/Cleric can spend two X level Sorcerer spell slots to cast a level X+1 Cleric spell he knows.

Heighten Spell with a spontaneous caster makes reserve feats a lot better. As long as you know a fire spell of any level, you can activate the fiery burst reserve feat as though you have a fire spell of the highest level you can cast it at with Heighten Spell. This includes spending two of your current highest level spell slots to cast it as though one level higher. It's good with Summon Elemental and Touch of Healing as well. You don't necessarily need reserve feats with a theurge character, but if you're spending two spell slots at a time it's definitely worth considering as you may actually run out of spells in a given day.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Sorry, I am confused. Where does it say that bloodline levels do not increase character level? I thought they did.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sorry, I am confused. Where does it say that bloodline levels do not increase character level? I thought they did.

Right here: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm)


Bloodline Levels

Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference. instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Meaning no disrespect, but are you arguing that, because the giant list of stuff after that point does not say specifically thay it counts for exp purposes in the list of stuff under, it does not? When I read that it seems to indicate that ther are exclusions to the normal levelup process, not an exp burn with specific inclusions.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Meaning no disrespect, but are you arguing that, because the giant list of stuff after that point does not say specifically thay it counts for exp purposes in the list of stuff under, it does not? When I read that it seems to indicate that ther are exclusions to the normal levelup process, not an exp burn with specific inclusions.

It specifically says bloodline levels don't increase your character level. It then gives specific exceptions, which make bloodline levels duplicate some of the effects of increasing your character level, but that doesn't change the fact that they do not actually increase your character level.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay, I can see where you are coming from. Thank you.