Paladin help for a noob.

[MindSculptor]

So, my friends and I have started playing D&D again for about the 4th time. We have a DM who has DM'ed for us everytime who has been playing for 13 years. Our group has never gotten past 3rd level so the play experience is lacking and our building experience is lacking even more. We have started our new campaign and it looks like everyone is going to continue to play and meet up on a regular basis.

My question is, how can I optimize my Paladin? Some restrictions are that I first and foremost do not want to multi-class and loose my Paladin spells. I want to keep it simple and just remain a pure Paladin since this is my first class I will take past 3rd level. Another restriction is that I do not want to go for the whole lance and prance on my special mount.

Something that does interest me is being a tanker/healer-help. I would also like to synergize my charisma into my build. Damage is also a partial priority.

I guess what I'm looking for are some suggested Feats and Equipment up through level 20. I am also thinking about giving up my special mount for the spirits.

I can get my hands on any book needed to find what you are suggesting.

Thanks to anyone who can help me with this restricted request. I'm sorry... haha

[Sgt. Cookie]

My prefered way to optimise the Paladin is to use Prestige Paladin, found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm), it's also in Unearthed Arcana. If your DM has been playing as long as you say, then he should be familiar with the SRD.

Use Prestige Paladin in conjunction with Cleric, you won't actually BE a Paladin until 6th level, but you WILL be MUCH stronger than PHB Paladin.

Also, you can ACF Prestige Paladin.

I'd suggest you pick up the Curse Breaker ACF, I forget where it's located, but you will be using it a lot more than Remove Disease.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I know you said you don't want to multiclass, but hear me out.

Start with Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) at 1st level, and take Paladin for the rest of your career.
Trade your free Knowledge domain for the feat Knowledge Devotion, detailed in Complete Champion. Also get the Law Devotion feat from that same book instead of the Law domain. Take the Inquisition domain from Spell Compendium. This gives you a few 1st level Cleric spells/day, which should be spent on Lesser Vigor in Spell Compendium and Ice Slick in Frostburn. You should also pick up a Wand of Lesser Vigor for healing people between encounters.

Starting with Cloistered gives you a lot of skill points. You'll need at least one rank in each Knowledge skill that identifies creatures based on type (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religion, the Planes), because that makes your Knowledge Devotion feat always give you at least +1 to attack and damage versus every opponent you'll ever face. You'll start with 24 skill points without any bonuses or penalties, fewer with a low Int score or more with a high Int and/or Human. I'd start with the following ranks:
Concentration 4, Spellcraft 4, Heal 4, Kn: Arcana 4, Kn: Religion 1, Kn: Planes 1, Kn: Dungeoneering 1 (cc), Kn: Nature 1 (cc), Kn: Local 1 (cc).
You'll need to spend a few Paladin skill points to get five ranks in Kn: Arcana by 5th level. The Knowledge Devotion feat allows you to pick one knowledge skill to always be a class skill for you, so I'd pick Arcana to make that easier later on.

Starting out you should wear light armor and use a reach weapon such as a longspear. Between a decent Str score, Knowledge Devotion, and Law Devotion, you should make a decent combatant, and you'll have a few spells to hinder opponents and heal the party. Once you start taking Paladin you can wear some heavier armor and carry a shield, along with martial weapons. Say he's been studying these for quite some time, but just hasn't gotten the hang of it until then.

Here's why you're multiclassing a level of Cleric, other than the obvious benefits. Once you hit Paladin 4, trade your Paladin turn undead ability for the Divine Counterspell alternate class feature in Complete Mage. Spend a feat at 1st or 3rd level on Practiced Spellcaster: Paladin, which will be extremely useful later on, and it allows you to take the feat Divine Defiance from Fiendish Codex II at 6th level. Divine Defiance allows you to spend a turn undead attempt (from your Cleric turning) to counterspell as an immediate action, i.e. not even when it's your turn, such as whenever you see an opponent casting a spell. You can use a Divine Counterspell use for this counterspell attempt, which means you don't even have to make a Spellcraft check to identify the opponent's spell. Divine Counterspell makes a Dispel check, with a bonus equal to what your Turn Undead level would have been, which is three less than your Paladin level, and you get a +2 bonus for having five Kn: Arcana ranks, and another +4 for the Inquisition domain. If you get items that increase your effective level for Turn Undead, such as an Ephod of Authority in MIC or a Phylactery of Undead Turning in the DMG, they will also increase your Divine Counterspell check by just as much. This allows your character to be absolutely amazing at stopping enemy spellcasters, and your means of achieving it makes your character even stronger overall.

You can trade your Paladin special mount for one of several alternate class features. I'd probably get either Underdark Knight in Complete Champion (if you'll be underground a lot), or Charging Smite in PHB2 (if you expect most of your strongest foes to be evil aligned). There are other ACFs you can trade that for, but those are the strongest choices. Note that Charging Smite adds an extra +2 damage per Paladin level, in addition to the normal +1 per level for a normal Smite Evil. Combined with the spell Rhino's Rush from Spell Compendium, you'll be able to seriously hurt or even kill evil opponents in a single hit when you charge.

You can check out this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275093#5) I made for a few more ideas on what to tack onto a Paladin, and note the Half-Orc Paragon levels in that build can easily be replaced by more Paladin.

[Gwendol]

I know you don't want to multiclass, but...
You say you want to heal/tank and synergize your charisma. Biff has suggested some very, very good things to you. I can but highly recommend them. However, I also want to offer another avenue of development; the Bardadin. This concept certainly synergizes the bard and the paladin charisma by using the feats devoted performer, and from smite to song (optional). Devoted performer allows you to stack bard and paladin levels when determining bardic song uses and smite evil damage.
Since you want to be a paladin, I suggest you only take enough bard levels to get the Healing Hymn, Spellbreaker song, and Hymn of Fortification ACF's (needs bard 3).
Using the inspirational boost spell to increase your inspire courage effect, and if allowed, the song of the heart feat, you can crank up your IC bonus to +3 to hit/damage very early on.
This can work out to be a very solid character, helping his teams to be better in combat, while only losing a single BAB to bard.

[Person_Man]

My 2 cp:

If possible, try and convince the DM to allow the Pathfinder Paladin or Crusader instead. Either is vastly superior, while still being very Paladin-ish. If that's not possible, take a look at the Paladin of Freedom (immunity to Compulsion, which is dramatically superior to immunity to Fear) and Shadow Cloak Knight (from Champions of Valor web enhancement, adds Hide, Move Silently, Favored Enemy (Humanoid), and Hide in Plain Site) variants.
Play a small race, like Strongheart Halfling or Whispser Gnome.
Ride a medium mount. They're cheap, usually add an attack, improve your mobility, and let you deal double damage with a lance, which you can use two handed).
Use your third level Feat to take one of the highly useful Devotion Feats from Complete Champion, like Travel Devotion, Earth Devotion, or Animal Devotion.
At 4th level you get Turn Undead, so you can use the Devotion Feat 1 + Cha bonus times per day instead of just once per day.
At 5th level you get your Special Mount, which will be a lot less squishy then your normal mount.
At 6th level take Leadership, so that your Special Mount can be something awesome like a dragon. The rules for doing so are right in the Dungeon Master's Guide.
Also at 6th level, you'll also probably want to enter a prestige class, unless you have some sort of obscure Smite Combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10289492) which relies purely on Paladin levels. (And even then, you're probably better off entering some other class or prestige class). If your DM didn't allow you to take Leadership, then you'll want to consider Ashworm Dragoon, Aglarondan Griffin Rider, Halfling Outrider, Knight of the Iron Glacier, or Triadic Knight.
If he did allow Leadership or if you just hate the whole mounted concept, then you'll probably want to play a Paladin 2 or 4/Something else 3 or 1/Prestige class, and take a look at Hellreaver, Emissary of Barachiel, Chameleon, Ordained Champion, and Tattooed Monk.
At higher levels when your Cha starts being significantly higher then your Str, you'll want to invest in some X to Y (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) action.

[gorfnab]

Paladin Handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html)
Paladin Build Compendium (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10057)

[Muktidata]

Paladins get the best offense out of power attacking. This improves when wielding a lance and charging while mounted.

Alternate Class Features of note:
Mystic Fire Knight - Lose Turning, Remove Disease/Gain Greater Dispel Magic, Spellcasting Improves
Cursebreaker - Trade Remove Disease for Remove Curse/Break Enchantment
Charging Smite - If you don't expect a lot of opportunities for mounted combat and plan to stay single-class Paladin, this is OK.

Feats of Note:
Leadership - Get a dedicated buffer or a sweet mount. There are rules in the DMG about using your cohort as your mount.
Spirited Charge - x3 damage on a charge with a lance.
Battle Blessing - Improves your ability to cast spells by reducing the time it takes to cast them. Most notably, standard action spells become swift.
Power Attack - You have full BAB, making you a prime candidate for this.
Awesome Smite - Great feat for a Paladin.
Sword of the Arcane Order - Gets you some nice Wizard spells.

Tips:
- Small characters on a Medium mount might help you if you're dungeon crawling or think the DM will limit you with a large mount. Look up the rules for rearing an animal via handle animal. They are very loose and easily broken, but use them reasonably and make a case for rearing a dire bat or some such creature you'd like to mount.
- If you don't know what a feat does or where it's from trying going to google.com and typing "(feat name) dnd feat" and work from there.
- You could also try googling Paladin builds, especially mounted ones. Expect to find lots of multiclassing, however. The Paladin handbook was also linked in the post prior to this.

Good luck and sorry you got so many replies offering what you explicitly stated you didn't want. That's common on CO boards.

[ArcturusV]

Interestingly, a Paladin also tends to make a decent Mounted Archer in my opinion. So you're looking at feats like Ride By Attack, Mounted Archery, Zen Archery if you got more Wisdom than Dex (Probably), Ancestral Relic (Make the best bow you can), Ranged Smite (Smite with an Arrow, from Horseback).

[Cerlis]

So, my friends and I have started playing D&D again for about the 4th time. We have a DM who has DM'ed for us everytime who has been playing for 13 years. Our group has never gotten past 3rd level so the play experience is lacking and our building experience is lacking even more. We have started our new campaign and it looks like everyone is going to continue to play and meet up on a regular basis.

My question is, how can I optimize my Paladin? Some restrictions are that I first and foremost do not want to multi-class and loose my Paladin spells. I want to keep it simple and just remain a pure Paladin since this is my first class I will take past 3rd level. Another restriction is that I do not want to go for the whole lance and prance on my special mount.

Something that does interest me is being a tanker/healer-help. I would also like to synergize my charisma into my build. Damage is also a partial priority.

I guess what I'm looking for are some suggested Feats and Equipment up through level 20. I am also thinking about giving up my special mount for the spirits.

I can get my hands on any book needed to find what you are suggesting.

Thanks to anyone who can help me with this restricted request. I'm sorry... haha

i dont have the sources with me, but there are many feats in the complete champion and complete divine if your DM will allow that.

Examples include one that increases the amount of Lay on hands healing you have (which should be used for emergencies), others allow you to do stuff like turn turn-undead attempts into bonus damage or buffing your spells. You dont get high lvls or many spells so you want those to be situation use spells. There should also be a reserve feat (i think in complete champion) that will allow you to heal someone until they are at half health as long as you have a healing spell prepared (its based on the level of the cure spell, so as long as you have a lvl 1 cure spell you can still do it even if it takes a little longer)

[Juntao112]

Here you go. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=509528)

[Gwendol]

And here's mine. A bit more of a striker/healer.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=498709

[MindSculptor]

Thank you for all the responses. I appreciate it. I am beginning to see that multi-classing is nearly impossible to avoid as any class except maybe a Druid. I would like to try some of the suggestions you guys have made for me but, we have already reached level 2. I'm sure I could swap my feats and the DM would probably be okay with it, but I'm not sure he would let me go back and start as a Cloister Cleric and then a level 1 Paladin. I suppose I can just stumble my way through this one and maybe on my next game I can try to plan ahead for a better build. What I had come up with on my own was just some things I saw from the Paladin Handbook that is commonly linked. The Feats I chose were as follows.

Human
Level 1:
Power Attack
Dreadful Wrath (I was VERY excited about taking this feat, but it turns out that this doesn't make sense due to the setting we are playing in, so scratch that)
I took Sunder to fill the gap till I found a better Feat to replace it.

Level 3:
Divine Shield

Level 6:
Awesome Smite

Level 9:
Battle Blessing

Not sure if this is a good direction or not... I'm just kinda blundering along based on what the "paladin handbook" says is considerable. Pluse if I remember correctly some of these feats synergize with Charisma. Any further comments?

[ArcturusV]

Well, see if you can get your DM to relax the multiclass restrictions. It's kinda sad that you cannot pick up any other classes (And only a few PrCs) without jeopardizing your ability to build on what you already had. And Dipping is what helps martially focused characters keep climbing up the power ladder.

So for good or for ill, you're kinda locked in now. And the sad thing about a Paladin is there just isn't really a good time to "ditch" and start taking other classes that I've seen. Paladin powers start off weak, and get stronger as you gain more paladin levels. You kind of need to keep taking it.

So, in short, kinda hosed. You have to do all your dipping before you take Paladin levels. Unless you can talk your DM into letting that slide.

[Gwendol]

Thank you for all the responses. I appreciate it. I am beginning to see that multi-classing is nearly impossible to avoid as any class except maybe a Druid. I would like to try some of the suggestions you guys have made for me but, we have already reached level 2. I'm sure I could swap my feats and the DM would probably be okay with it, but I'm not sure he would let me go back and start as a Cloister Cleric and then a level 1 Paladin. I suppose I can just stumble my way through this one and maybe on my next game I can try to plan ahead for a better build. What I had come up with on my own was just some things I saw from the Paladin Handbook that is commonly linked. The Feats I chose were as follows.

Human
Level 1:
Power Attack
Dreadful Wrath (I was VERY excited about taking this feat, but it turns out that this doesn't make sense due to the setting we are playing in, so scratch that)
I took Sunder to fill the gap till I found a better Feat to replace it.

Level 3:
Divine Shield

Level 6:
Awesome Smite

Level 9:
Battle Blessing

Not sure if this is a good direction or not... I'm just kinda blundering along based on what the "paladin handbook" says is considerable. Pluse if I remember correctly some of these feats synergize with Charisma. Any further comments?

You can always take a level of cloistered cleric next: you don't have to take it at level one! Same goes for Bard: explain that you want to use the devoted performer feat as it explicitly allows for the level stacking regardless of alignment. If you can't multiclass paladin and bard, then at least consider taking from smite to song: it allows you to convert smiting to inspire courage (as the bard), and extra smite.

[MindSculptor]

Well I have a question about feats that have prerequisites such as "Must have the ability to Smite" or "must have the ability to turn undead" or "must have the ability to cast Paladin Spells". Can I take these feats at level one even if I don't yet actually HAVE the ability to do these things though I am a Paladin?

[ArcturusV]

Nah, can't take the feat until you are high enough level to actually use the ability. So that means for Battle Blessing, for example, the earliest you can take it is level 6.

Which incidentally is when a lot of good Paladin Feats are ready to kick online. But since you seem to be ditching Mounted Combat that might be your best option. Least more so than a Turning related feat.

[Gildedragon]

For that level 1 feat you don't know what to do with get martial study to get a stance:

Bolstering Voice: bonus to allies' will saves
Iron Guard's Glare: allies get an ac boost
Martial Spirit: heal 2 hp per attack

Dipping Cleric at 1 also lets you get the Divine Might feat right off the bat (which is, I presume, why you asked about Turn Undead)

[MindSculptor]

Okay, but for the Marital Stances, is it a feat or a spell? I'm kinda confused about how I go about obtaining it. And taking a 1st level stance would eventually become obsolete over time would it not? And I don't understand why they go up in level increments of 1-2-3-4. This is why I am confused on whether they are feats or not.

[MindSculptor]

I have found the "feat" and understand now how it works... But at level one I would have to take on a Martial Study for a maneuver before I can take on the Martial Stance to get a stance. That sucks... I wanted that Iron guard AC bonus to the party...

[MindSculptor]

Holy freaking wow, never mind. Some of these maneuvers are too good to be true. The only problem is that they do not scale at all... So if I take a 1st level maneuver and stance now, will it not be nearly obsolete in the future at higher levels? Maybe a waste of a feat? Or can i retrain them to be a new feat in the future?

[Gwendol]

Most scale very well. Also, think crusader instead of paladin....

Vanguard strike for example: +4 to hit will never become obsolete.

[Barsoom]

Just play a Crusader. It has exactly the same flavor as Paladin, that of a holy warrior drawing strength from his faith. If you want, you can call yourself a Paladin [as a social title].

[Gildedragon]

Doesn't matter much if some of the stances don't scale much; they are nice passive effects you got happening