Getting the most out of Spring Attack/Bounding Assault?

[Nightgaun7]

I've been looking at the Swiftblade a lot lately. After having to suck up the incredibly bad entry prereqs, they're nice enough to give you Spring Attack and later Bounding Assault. I'm wondering what the best way to use this is.

There is a minor benefit from Swift Surge, but Haste only gives you an extra swing on a full attack.

[WhatBigTeeth]

I believe you could use it to make multiple attacks with a natural weapon. Probably best used with polymorph into one of those monsters that just gets one really big attack or an attack with a nasty rider effect.

[Nightgaun7]

How could you do that? Wouldn't it still only count for one of the natural attacks?

[Grasharm]

Scout - skirmish damage by itself worth it for your character
but then you could go into
Unseen Seer from complete mage to add a full casting class with 2/3rds bab to your build and continue your if you wanted to continue your casting advances.

Or you could pick up Duskblade and eventually bound attack and swift cast touch spells while slapping for damage.

Lastly any of the Tomb of battle things would work well. just make sure you take stances you can move in and boost with very few strikes.

all in all I think your best bet is scout into unseen.

[WhatBigTeeth]

How could you do that? Wouldn't it still only count for one of the natural attacks?
What I meant is that Bounding Assault doesn't reference a full attack. It gives multiple attack actions.

This is advantageous on monsters who have one big natural weapon. Normally, these might be somewhat appealing polymorph/draconic polymorph forms because you want something like a cave ankylosaur's natural armor or a tyrannosaur's grapple forms, but they have the drawback of only permitting one attack per round.

But with rapid blitz, you don't take a full attack, you don't have to deal with natural weapon limits. You just take 3 attack actions, and there's no reason those all can't be from the same natural weapon.

So for a Swiftblade polymorphed into a Cave Ankylosaur, the character can full attack with one tail club attack, or rapid blitz with three.

I can't think of a polymorph form off-hand that could really exploit this, but I'm sure there's something lurking about with a really nasty poison on one of its natural weapons, or some other form of powerful rider effect.

[Icewraith]

I thought bounding assault let you use your next iterative instead of another attack at your highest bonus, but it also definitely lets you ignore another opponent for purposes of aoos. AFB so can't check.

I thought it was: with 15/10/5 attack bonus
Spring attack: one attack at +15, ignore aoos form one opponent
Bounding Assault: 15/10, ignore aoos from 2 opponents
Rapid Blitz: 15/10/5, ignore aoos from 3 opponents.

3 standard attack actions is way better, and makes Tempest sound a lot better for two-weapon spring attack, assuming it interacts the way it seems it should and you could get both attacks on all three standard actions.

Edit: But only if you're drowning in feat slots.

[Nightgaun7]

What I meant is that Bounding Assault doesn't reference a full attack. It gives multiple attack actions.

This is advantageous on monsters who have one big natural weapon...but they have the drawback of only permitting one attack per round.

But with rapid blitz, you don't take a full attack, you don't have to deal with natural weapon limits. You just take 3 attack actions, and there's no reason those all can't be from the same natural weapon.

So for a Swiftblade polymorphed into a Cave Ankylosaur, the character can full attack with one tail club attack, or rapid blitz with three.

I can't think of a polymorph form off-hand that could really exploit this, but I'm sure there's something lurking about with a really nasty poison on one of its natural weapons, or some other form of powerful rider effect.

First off, Swiftblade only gives you Leap Attack and Bounding Assault, not Rapid Blitz. Secondly, I'm not seeing how you get around the limit on these natural attacks. Is it somehow counted as three separate attacks even though you are doing it all in one action?

And I thought Icewraith's interpretation was correct, although I would be quite happy to be wrong.

[WhatBigTeeth]

And I thought Icewraith's interpretation was correct, although I would be quite happy to be wrong.
He is. Kind of.
Bounding assault is two attack actions, the second at a -5 penalty. That's different than a normal iterative attack, because it is not an "additional [attack] from a high base attack bonus," which means there's no reason you can't take a second attack with the same natural weapon.

[Piggy Knowles]

In general, what Spring Attack gives you (mobility and hopefully a better defensive position) isn't really enough to cover what you give up by taking it (no charging or full attacks).

If I were building a character focused on Spring Attacks, I'd want to make sure that my single hit tossed on several nasty effects, and that there was no chance of a counterattack.

Maybe something like:

Incarnate 4/Psychic Warrior 2/War Mind 5/Soul Manifester 9

Take Midnight Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knock-Down, Shape Soulmeld (Phase Cloak), and Azure Talent. That leaves you with two spare feats - maybe Elusive Target and Psycarnum Infusion?

Phase Cloak bound to your shoulders means you turn ethereal when you move, so you can Spring Attack through walls, ceilings or floors and retreat back where no one can hurt you. Sweeping Strike from War Mind means you can target multiple enemies with your Spring Attack strike, and Knock-Down/Improved Trip means you can knock them prone and get a bonus attack before retreating.

For absolute fun, sink some cross-class ranks into Sleight of Hand, and shape the Theft Gloves. A DC 40 Sleight of Hand check shouldn't be too tough to hit, and that lets you steal something from your enemy as a free action. So, you can come out of nowhere, ethereally appear, attack a couple of enemies and knock them prone, steal their stuff, then retreat ethereally behind a wall or into the ground.

[Nightgaun7]

In general, what Spring Attack gives you (mobility and hopefully a better defensive position) isn't really enough to cover what you give up by taking it (no charging or full attacks).

If I were building a character focused on Spring Attacks, I'd want to make sure that my single hit tossed on several nasty effects, and that there was no chance of a counterattack.

Maybe something like:

Incarnate 4/Psychic Warrior 2/War Mind 5/Soul Manifester 9

Take Midnight Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knock-Down, Shape Soulmeld (Phase Cloak), and Azure Talent. That leaves you with two spare feats - maybe Elusive Target and Psycarnum Infusion?

Phase Cloak bound to your shoulders means you turn ethereal when you move, so you can Spring Attack through walls, ceilings or floors and retreat back where no one can hurt you. Sweeping Strike from War Mind means you can target multiple enemies with your Spring Attack strike, and Knock-Down/Improved Trip means you can knock them prone and get a bonus attack before retreating.

For absolute fun, sink some cross-class ranks into Sleight of Hand, and shape the Theft Gloves. A DC 40 Sleight of Hand check shouldn't be too tough to hit, and that lets you steal something from your enemy as a free action. So, you can come out of nowhere, ethereally appear, attack a couple of enemies and knock them prone, steal their stuff, then retreat ethereally behind a wall or into the ground.

That sounds like an awesome build, but right now I'm trying to work on ways to get a little extra out of the swiftblade. I'm not really planning to make Bounding Assault the core of my build (although given the penaltie the lower iteratives take and the bonuses the Swiftblade gets for moving, it might be worthwhile...have to see if I ever get to play it) I just want to get a bit of extra power out of the nice freebie class feature.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A Shifter Totemist2/Barbarian1/PsychicWarrior7/Warshaper1 can get a claw attack for 12d6 + STR damage.

Bind Sphinx Claws to your Totem Chakra for 1d8.
Improved Natural Attack increases it to 2d6.
Warshapers Morphic Weapons increases it to 3d6.
Shifter Savagery increases by 2 size categories:6d6
Augmented Expansion increases your size by two categories: 12d6

Add in the strength boni for raging, warshaper 2, etc. and you get one nasty attack :smallamused:

It's ridicolously overspecialized of course and you won't get into Swiftblade until level 13,
but that's as high as you can get it unless i missed something.

Add in Open Lesser Chakra (Arms) and bind Girallion Claws to get a third
attack with double claw damage + double str after bounding assault.

Edit: You can also replace the 7 levels of Psychic Warrior with Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulder) and bind Totem Avatar.
You end up with only 8d6 + Str but have 16 levels left to spend on other classes.

[Nightgaun7]

My GM doesn't allow psychic stuff anyways, so that's all moot I'm afraid.

Anyways, wouldn't you then have to spend at least 6 levels to get to the casting you need for Haste and then go into swiftblade? You would lose out on a lot of casting too...

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well, even if you leave out the Psychic Warrior you end up with
8d6+Str, 8d6+Str, 2x 8d6+Str for 4 levels and 4 feats.

You'd end up with Wiz6/SwB10 so only 6th level spellcasting.
Leave out the Warshaper and you'll get 7th level spells in exchange for another 2d6 claw damage less.
It's up to you how much casting you're willing to sacrifice.

In the end you'd probably be better of to take this on a melee build.
Add in Warshaper 3 for morphic reach, Thicket of Blades and Combat Reflexes
and enjoy 12d6+Str AoO's with a 20ft reach :smallbiggrin:

It's just the theoretical maximum anyway.
My Dm would probably have a coronary if i brought a meleechar to the table
who did 48d6 + 4xStr on a Spring Attack :smallwink:

[Nightgaun7]

How about if I do Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abj Champ 5, the "classic" Swiftblade build?

Are there any spells that will work well for adding damage to the Bounding Assault?

[Runestar]

Polymorph into 12-headed hydra? You get to spring attack and make up to 36 attacks (3 attacks, each of which you can make with all 12 heads).

Bonus - you are a sorc, and I hope you had selected wraithstrike as one of your 2nd lv spells...:smallamused:

[Person_Man]

Even though you get them for free, they're honestly just terrible game mechanics that severely limit the number of attacks you make each round. So the best way to use them is to not use them at all, and find some other form of Pounce or free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) to use in it's place.

Though I would agree with Piggy that you should find some way of working Elusive Target into your build. It's a great feat with terrible pre-reqs - but if you're wedded to Dodge and Mobility for entry into Swiftblade, you should definitely take it.

[stack]

Well, I used it to get two hits a turn on a dragon without provoking or ending up in full-attack range. Combine with power attack and wraithstrike,wings of cover for breath-weapon protection, and you can whittle them down, or at least keep them busy while other party members do their thing.

[ImaginaryDragon]

Even though you get them for free, they're honestly just terrible game mechanics that severely limit the number of attacks you make each round. So the best way to use them is to not use them at all, and find some other form of Pounce or free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) to use in it's place.

Though I would agree with Piggy that you should find some way of working Elusive Target into your build. It's a great feat with terrible pre-reqs - but if you're wedded to Dodge and Mobility for entry into Swiftblade, you should definitely take it.

Given that your later iterative attacks are less likely to land, and that you might not even get a third or fourth iterative until after you've had the ability to use Bounding Assault for a while, it seems like their terribleness is overstated. Especially since the swiftblade gets bonuses to hit and damage for moving and hitting, and they also are fragile and the farther they are away afterwards the better.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Given that your later iterative attacks are less likely to land, and that you might not even get a third or fourth iterative until after you've had the ability to use Bounding Assault for a while, it seems like their terribleness is overstated. Especially since the swiftblade gets bonuses to hit and damage for moving and hitting, and they also are fragile and the farther they are away afterwards the better.

I agree. If you're going to build around spring attack/bounding assault it's not
much of a stretch to take rapid blitz too, giving you 3 attacks.

Binding Girallion Claws gets you a fourth attack for 2 feats (shape soulmeld & open lesser chakra).

It takes a little wrangling, but if you take spring attack at level 6,
bounding assault in place of spring attack at 7 (since you already have spring attack),
shape soulmeld at 9 and open lesser chakra at 12,
you end up with 4 attacks on a spring attack (if you get at least 2 hits with the first 3 attacks) by level 13 when you can take rapid blitz because you already have bounding assault.

You'll need to be human or something with martial weapon prof.,
but you can go Wiz6/SB7 and end up with 4 attacks at BAB 10,
and you'll still have level 10 Wiz casting.

You'll have to use claw attacks to qualify for the 4th attack from Girallion Arms though.

[Piggy Knowles]

Given that your later iterative attacks are less likely to land, and that you might not even get a third or fourth iterative until after you've had the ability to use Bounding Assault for a while, it seems like their terribleness is overstated. Especially since the swiftblade gets bonuses to hit and damage for moving and hitting, and they also are fragile and the farther they are away afterwards the better.

How often do you tend to miss with your lowest iterative attacks? I'm playing a Shock Trooper right now with +12 BAB, and I hit with all three attacks ~75% of the time (barring miss chance and the like).

[Greenish]

Given that your later iterative attacks are less likely to land, and that you might not even get a third or fourth iterative until after you've had the ability to use Bounding Assault for a while, it seems like their terribleness is overstated.On the other hand, I've heard that swiftblades sometimes use this one weird spell that gives them an extra attack on full attacks, though I forget the name, and I'm sure it's not actually default swiftblade buff or anything.

[sleepyphoenixx]

On the other hand, I've heard that swiftblades sometimes use this one weird spell that gives them an extra attack on full attacks, though I forget the name, and I'm sure it's not actually default swiftblade buff or anything.

On the other other hand, swiftblades get perpetual options, allowing you to take 2 standard actions for 3 (or 4 with girallion claws) attacks each.
And still move.

[Curmudgeon]

In general, what Spring Attack gives you (mobility and hopefully a better defensive position) isn't really enough to cover what you give up by taking it (no charging or full attacks).
Charging is definitely out, but full attacks are only mostly excluded. Spring Attack splits a move action around an "attack action". This term is used, but never defined, in the game. So it could include a full attack action as well as a standard action attack. The problem, of course, is that you'll need to find a way to get that combination (move action + full attack action) in a single round. A Belt of Battle will get you there, but only 3x per day.

In general (if it works with your character) Snap Kick is a good way to make Spring Attack better, adding an extra unarmed attack to every melee attack, regardless of action type. (If you're building for reach weapons or Power Attack multipliers then an unarmed attack isn't going to help a lot here.)

[ImaginaryDragon]

On the other hand, I've heard that swiftblades sometimes use this one weird spell that gives them an extra attack on full attacks, though I forget the name, and I'm sure it's not actually default swiftblade buff or anything.

Haste only works on a full attack. Which is fine if you somehow get a full attack when using Spring Attack or Rapid Blitz, but I do not think that everyone will read the rules in such a manner. If you have some way to unequivocally back up Swiftblades getting a full attack while using either of these feats, I would be happy to see it.

[Elric VIII]

Just going to throw this out there, it's unlikely you're getting Rapid Blitz in a Swiftblade build, considering the +18 BAB requirement. The fact that it's not a Fighter feat will make it very hard to take, because you need at least 4 levels of Wizard for casting prerequisites (then you can take Spellsword and then jump into Swiftblade/Abjurant Champion). So this means the earliest you are getting +18 BAB is level 20. I don't think there are any full BAB arcane casting classes that both get Haste and allow for enough BAB.

Aside from that, you have three possible options here:

1) Treat Spring Attack and Bounding Assault as backup abilities. In the 1-in-100 scenarios where that combination is the perfect thing and nothing else will do, then you have it and it's awesome. No additional focus really needed.

2) Curmudgeon is correct that "attack action" is not really defined. So you can use this, along with the Lesser Celerity to grab an extra move, full attack, and get out of harms way for your round of daze. This time manipulation thing actually goes really well with Swiftblade, IMO. Carry a couple of Third Eye, Clarity (MIC) to negate the daze a few times when you really need it. The only issue here is that Bounding Assault says "second attack," so if you take a full attack, it won't really be a second attack.

3) If the above is not allowed, you can just use Lesser Celerity for pseudo-pounce. Then, with Perpetual Options you can move away and call it "Spring Attack."

[Nightgaun7]

Just going to throw this out there, it's unlikely you're getting Rapid Blitz in a Swiftblade build, considering the +18 BAB requirement. The fact that it's not a Fighter feat will make it very hard to take, because you need at least 4 levels of Wizard for casting prerequisites (then you can take Spellsword and then jump into Swiftblade/Abjurant Champion). So this means the earliest you are getting +18 BAB is level 20. I don't think there are any full BAB arcane casting classes that both get Haste and allow for enough BAB.

Aside from that, you have three possible options here:

1) Treat Spring Attack and Bounding Assault as backup abilities. In the 1-in-100 scenarios where that combination is the perfect thing and nothing else will do, then you have it and it's awesome. No additional focus really needed.

2) Curmudgeon is correct that "attack action" is not really defined. So you can use this, along with the Lesser Celerity to grab an extra move, full attack, and get out of harms way for your round of daze. This time manipulation thing actually goes really well with Swiftblade, IMO. Carry a couple of Third Eye, Clarity (MIC) to negate the daze a few times when you really need it. The only issue here is that Bounding Assault says "second attack," so if you take a full attack, it won't really be a second attack.

3) If the above is not allowed, you can just use Lesser Celerity for pseudo-pounce. Then, with Perpetual Options you can move away and call it "Spring Attack."

I wasn't really planning to make it the centerpoint of my build, or to take Rapid Blitz. Personally I was just wondering what might be some good ways to pump it up in those situations where I do need it. And without 4 levels in Psychic Warrior or pumping 3 feats into binding soulmantles. I just want to enhance the build I have in mind rather than adding in a whole new subsystem.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I wasn't really planning to make it the centerpoint of my build, or to take Rapid Blitz. Personally I was just wondering what might be some good ways to pump it up in those situations where I do need it. And without 4 levels in Psychic Warrior or pumping 3 feats into binding soulmantles. I just want to enhance the build I have in mind rather than adding in a whole new subsystem.

Get a bunch of arrows of spell storing. Cast nasty stuff into them during downtime.Have your partys druid/cleric cast nasty stuff into them.
Poison, Shivering Touch, etc.

Sure, you get a -4 penalty for using them in melee, but you don't make iteratives and you get an attack bonus anyway so it's not that much of a problem.

[Curmudgeon]

Get a bunch of arrows of spell storing. Cast nasty stuff into them during downtime.Have your partys druid/cleric cast nasty stuff into them.
Poison, Shivering Touch, etc.

Sure, you get a -4 penalty for using them in melee, but you don't make iteratives and you get an attack bonus anyway so it's not that much of a problem.
The problem here is that, even when you use arrows as improvised melee weapons, you retain all the other rules.
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.
Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost. Because it's destroyed when you hit with it, and the magical power is lost then, there's no Spell Storing property any more.

[Andezzar]

Because it's destroyed when you hit with it, and the magical power is lost then, there's no Spell Storing property any more.How is that different form a flaming arrow? Yes it is expensive, but if you really want to lay on the hurt....

[sleepyphoenixx]

You get 50 Spell Storing arrows for the price of one Spell Storing dagger or whatever. You basically get 50 3rd level scrolls for 8002,5 gp.
That's 160 gp for a 3rd level spell. Not that expensive imo.

Just cast the spells into it during downtime and store them in an Efficient Quiver so you can draw them for free as part of a move action when you perform a spring attack.

[Greenish]

On the other other hand, swiftblades get perpetual options, allowing you to take 2 standard actions for 3 (or 4 with girallion claws) attacks each.
And still move.How are you getting extra attacks on standard actions from Girallon Arms? Does Spring Attack even allow you to burn more actions for more attacks during the movement?


Haste only works on a full attack.My point exactly.


The fact that it's not a Fighter feat will make it very hard to take, because you need at least 4 levels of Wizard for casting prerequisites (then you can take Spellsword and then jump into Swiftblade/Abjurant Champion).Rapid Blitz is got errataed into a fighter feat, along Bounding Assault, Crushing Strike, Driving Attack, Overwhelming Assault, Slashing Flurry, and Weapon Supremacy.

[sleepyphoenixx]

How are you getting extra attacks on standard actions from Girallon Arms? Does Spring Attack even allow you to burn more actions for more attacks during the movement?


Girallion Arms bound to the arms chakra lets you rend for 2x damage if you hit a single target with 2 claw attacks (spring attack + bounding assault).
It's essentially a free attack that autohits and does double damage.

The only requirement for a spring attack is that you move 5 feet before and after.
There is no reason why you can't make two attack actions between movements if you move 5 feet between the two attacks and have the necessary actions to spend
(such as from perpetual options or a belt of battle).

That said, it's not too much of a stretch to allow a full attack between movements if you have perpetual options, but that's something you'll have to take up with your dm.

[Curmudgeon]

How is that different form a flaming arrow?
A Flaming arrow imparts the damage on a successful hit, and is simultaneously destroyed. Spell Storing, on the other hand, requires a decision by the wielder before the spell is triggered. Immediately after being destroyed is still too late.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A Flaming arrow imparts the damage on a successful hit, and is simultaneously destroyed. Spell Storing, on the other hand, requires a decision by the wielder before the spell is triggered. Immediately after being destroyed is still too late.

That's a very... biased reading of Spell Storing imo. I haven't encountered it before and therefore not considered it.
I think that if it wasn't intended to be used on ammunition it would have been restricted to melee weapons, like several other enchantments already are.
It would certainly be a good idea to ask your DM how he rules on this before you use it to prevent unnecessary arguments.

[gallagher]

The feat elusive target. Complete warrior. Learn it, know it, love it, take it.

[Curmudgeon]

I think that if it wasn't intended to be used on ammunition it would have been restricted to melee weapons, like several other enchantments already are.
Spell Storing is an Evocation, not an Enchantment. And, while you can use it on ammunition, you'll get very limited results. Ammunition which leaves your control is no longer wielded, and a Spell Storing weapon can only cast the spell when the wielder makes a choice.

[animewatcha]

Took a quick glance through the thread and 2 questions.

It is realised that shifter savagery isn't stackable with other size increase unless they increase size of player ( i.e. enlarge person ), right?


Snap kick. Doesn't it add only one extra ( unarmed ) attack, not essentially double the number?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Spell Storing is an Evocation, not an Enchantment. And, while you can use it on ammunition, you'll get very limited results. Ammunition which leaves your control is no longer wielded, and a Spell Storing weapon can only cast the spell when the wielder makes a choice.

I meant enchantmant in the sense of a weapon enchantment, not the spell school. Perhaps not the best choice of words.
The rules say
Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires.

I see no reason why the user can't desire the arrow to cast the spell when/if it hits. Since it's the weapon casting the spell (as a free action).
You can certainly read it the way you do but it's not the only interpretation imo.

[Andezzar]

I see no reason why the user can't desire the arrow to cast the spell when/if it hits. Since it's the weapon casting the spell (as a free action).
You can certainly read it the way you do but it's not the only interpretation imo.The problem is not the desire but whether there is time to cast a spell between the arrwo hitting the target and being destroyed which happen simultaneously. A destroyed magic item, does not function.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The rule is "an arrow that hits its target is destroyed".
Ok, so your expensive magical arrows are not reusable.
That's RAW.

Maybe the shafts break or bend or whatever.
They do not magically vanish the moment they hit something.

If you don't want spell storing arrows in your games because you think they are too cheap or they break your game by allowing to many spells per day that's fine.
It's not RAW though and if it is intended, which i doubt, it's exceedingly vague considering there are several examples of weapon abilities that are restricted to melee weapons on the same page.

[Andezzar]

The rule is "an arrow that hits its target is destroyed".
Ok, so your expensive magical arrows are not reusable.
That's RAW.That is it. The rules do not say exactly when the arrow is destroyed. So you cannot exclude the possibility that it is immediately on impact, which IMHO is the RAW, as the arrow immediately becomes an "arrow that hits" on impact and thus is destroyed.

So the arrow being able to get the spell off before it is destroyed is no more RAW than the arrow disintegrating before being able to cast the spell. Both are house rules.


Maybe the shafts break or bend or whatever.
They do not magically vanish the moment they hit something.How the arrow is destroyed is irrelevant, it only matters that it is. Disappearance or disintegration isn't necessary either as a destroyed magic item can leave bits behind and still be unusable. Dealing sufficient hit point damage to the arrow (or any other magic weapon) wouldn't make it vanish but still render it unusable.

[Nightgaun7]

Ammunition being destroyed immediately on impact is a stupid rule anyways.