Skarn + Warblade + Crusader + Spinemeld Warior = ??? [3.5]

[Tokuhara]

I decided to read over the Warblade & Crusader Handbooks and saw that the Skarn (one of my favorite 3.5 Races ever) was listed as a "good choice." So I thought, "How could I combine a sick race with ToB to make a melee machine?" So here's the question I'm posing:

On a 28 Point Buy with 2 Traits and 2 Flaws, starting at 3rd level, build a Crusader/Warblade/Spinemeld Warrior that will kick tail in combat.

Note: The group does use multiclass penalties and I want to make use of the spirit of the 3 classes (Religious Death Zealot, Master Swordsman, Perfectionist Martial Artist) to fit the role of melee.

[Keld Denar]

Spinemeld Warrior is kinda wonky. It allows you to TWF with your spines, but you can't TWF with natural weapons. I'd talk to your DM about rewriting the rules for that PrC to actually work.

[Tokuhara]

Spinemeld Warrior is kinda wonky. It allows you to TWF with your spines, but you can't TWF with natural weapons. I'd talk to your DM about rewriting the rules for that PrC to actually work.

I had no idea that the free TWF feat wasn't needed :smallconfused:.

Definitely will talk to him about that. So minus that weirdness, I was almost thinking of going unarmed (yea. Nuts) and using my spines and fists to initiate maneuvers.

[Keld Denar]

There aren't many maneuvers that really benefit from having more than one weapon. Mostly a couple of Tiger Claws and Time Stands Still, and even then, most of the TC maneuvers are single attack strikes. Natural weapons are generally a poorer choice for this than a manufactured weapon due to 2:1 PA returns and ease of enchantment. Natural weapons make great backup though, as you can always initiate a maneuver with one. It would be ideal if you could get some kind of status effect with your natural weapon, however, like what you get from the Longtooth Elite shifter feat.

[Tokuhara]

There aren't many maneuvers that really benefit from having more than one weapon. Mostly a couple of Tiger Claws and Time Stands Still, and even then, most of the TC maneuvers are single attack strikes. Natural weapons are generally a poorer choice for this than a manufactured weapon due to 2:1 PA returns and ease of enchantment. Natural weapons make great backup though, as you can always initiate a maneuver with one. It would be ideal if you could get some kind of status effect with your natural weapon, however, like what you get from the Longtooth Elite shifter feat.

I know this sounds nuts, but I'm actually not planning on using power attack at all. I plan on sticking with maneuvers that inflict ailments on my enemies as well, though I'd always be happy with more damage.

[animewatcha]

Spinemeld Warrior is kinda wonky. It allows you to TWF with your spines, but you can't TWF with natural weapons. I'd talk to your DM about rewriting the rules for that PrC to actually work.

The soulborn listing and some of dead level stuff I can see what you mean for the rewrite. However, the rules are just fine with twf and the spines. It says in the class entry that you can treat your spines as if they were two light weapons. And depending upon DM/group, don't need the prestige class for twf fighting with them. Skarn monk racial sublevel 1.

[Tokuhara]

The soulborn listing and some of dead level stuff I can see what you mean for the rewrite. However, the rules are just fine with twf and the spines. It says in the class entry that you can treat your spines as if they were two light weapons.

So it works like Improved Rapid Strike????

[Dusk Eclipse]

I would suggest getting some Desert Wind boosts in there, true they are Fire Damage; but the level 1 boost adds 1d6+IL to all your weapons, which does help TWF. if you go pseudo-idiot crusader and get it on your crusader recovery you might be able to initiate it every round.

[animewatcha]

Magic of Incarnum page 148. Best if you read the class. Specific this and that. Handy thing about it is since there is no errata, your soulmelds are limited by just con score instead of con score or class/meldshaper level thinger.

[Tokuhara]

Magic of Incarnum page 148. Best if you read the class. Specific this and that. Handy thing about it is since there is no errata, your soulmelds are limited by just con score instead of con score or class/meldshaper level thinger.

Okay. Please break this down for me Barney-Style, kk?

[Keld Denar]

It says you can treat them as light weapons, but it doesn't say anything about the fact that they are still natural weapons and thus subject to all of the specific rules for natural weapons, including the 1 attack per weapon per round rule.


Magic of Incarnum page 148. Best if you read the class. Specific this and that. Handy thing about it is since there is no errata, your soulmelds are limited by just con score instead of con score or class/meldshaper level thinger.

How you you gather that? Both the text AND the table state the number of melds you can shape with the standard caveat that you can't shape more melds than your Con Score-10.

EDIT: Even the racial traits section of Skarn are messed up. It says you can use spines as an "offhand" weapon. You can't use natural attacks as offhand. They can be "secondary" natural attacks, which is similar, yet different. They can never be offhands, though. It jars completely with every rule for natural attacks ever printed.

[Tokuhara]

It says you can treat them as light weapons, but it doesn't say anything about the fact that they are still natural weapons and thus subject to all of the specific rules for natural weapons, including the 1 attack per weapon per round rule.



How you you gather that? Both the text AND the table state the number of melds you can shape with the standard caveat that you can't shape more melds than your Con Score-10.

EDIT: Even the racial traits section of Skarn are messed up. It says you can use spines as an "offhand" weapon. You can't use natural attacks as offhand. They can be "secondary" natural attacks, which is similar, yet different. They can never be offhands, though. It jars completely with every rule for natural attacks ever printed.

I've noticed several later supplements tended to have bad revision...

[Cerlis]

It says you can treat them as light weapons, but it doesn't say anything about the fact that they are still natural weapons and thus subject to all of the specific rules for natural weapons, including the 1 attack per weapon per round rule.



How you you gather that? Both the text AND the table state the number of melds you can shape with the standard caveat that you can't shape more melds than your Con Score-10.

EDIT: Even the racial traits section of Skarn are messed up. It says you can use spines as an "offhand" weapon. You can't use natural attacks as offhand. They can be "secondary" natural attacks, which is similar, yet different. They can never be offhands, though. It jars completely with every rule for natural attacks ever printed.

And a paladin cant take levels of paladin if he multi classes.

Except that there is a rule that if a rule countmands a base rule then you treat it as if the exception is the rule

Such as classes that say you can take levels in it and still take lvls in paladin.

Just like this.

yes, you cant attack multiple times with the same natural weapon, or use it as offhand attacks.

unless its a scarn in which the rules say you CAN do that.

This exception countermands the rules

thats how it works.

[Tokuhara]

So let me see if I'm understanding this before we move on...

Normally, you can't make iteratives with natural weapons except as a Spinemeld Warrior, who because they have a backdoor outlet of this rule, can. And because they have the backdoor outlet, they effectively gain the Rapidstrike ability using the TWF rules...

That's actually not bad. It's not amazing, but it's definitely "unique"

[animewatcha]

How you you gather that? Both the text AND the table state the number of melds you can shape with the standard caveat that you can't shape more melds than your Con Score-10.



Compare this meldshaping text with other classes in the book. They say ( for the other classes ) that you are limited by con score and the number of soulmelds on the table. Check totemist for example. Level 1 can only have 2 soulmelds shaped at once due to con score or the table on the level 1 indication.

Please read into the classes. I haven't read every single bit of every book, however when it comes to specific stuff like this. I find myself reading the same text multiple times ( over different days ) to check to make sure everything works when trying to come up with x character. Even then, I sometimes ask on forums for help on x thing and see if there is better choices ( ToB is banned in my group ).

Also, helps when dealing with people like Curmudgeon ( mainly rules lawyers, but I'm sure you have read this guy's posts around the forum at some point ) who treat player's handbook and DMG as the Bible, no exceptions even given supplementals. At times, they are right on things. Other times like monk bonus feats, he is not.

[Tokuhara]

I live for the "spirit of the rule," not the letter.

For instance:

The drowning to heal trick. While by the letter, it works, it isn't in the spirit of the effect.

[Waddacku]

There's no rewriting needed for the spines, they don't use the natural weapons rules at all. It's unfortunate that they chose to label them as such, but the entry is clear on how it works. You get a free weapon, not extra attacks.

[Fouredged Sword]

You can even make iteratives and extra attacks from improved TWF. It is really not a bad extra boost. Ask your DM is you can treat them as natural attacks when beneficial, as you may be able to wield two Kukri and your spines as natural weapon secondary attacks. You may be able to gain an extra hand through some means (grallion arms totemist 2 maybe?) and qualify for multiweapon fighting with 4 light weapons.

Mix this with the soulmeld that increases healing effects and the devoted spirit stance that heals with every hit. You could be healing 2+2*essence invested every hit. That can make you a very though puppy and the party combat healer.

Warblade would be a nice base as it has higher HD, followed by a single level of crusader. Then go incarnate or oick up the therapeutic thingy that adds to healing effects through a feat. Then you are free to go spinemeld warrior.

[Waddacku]

You can only do one attack with the spines, though, unless you have Spinemeld Warrior 1. It specifically allows you to use both arms as if fighting with two light weapons. The restrictions in either case are pretty specific.

[Darrin]

You can only do one attack with the spines, though, unless you have Spinemeld Warrior 1. It specifically allows you to use both arms as if fighting with two light weapons. The restrictions in either case are pretty specific.

It also says you can't attack with any other weapons if you TWF with your spines. This locks you into two light weapons with very low damage output, Power Attack is either useless or nerfed, and you can't add any additional natural attacks such as a bite, claws, etc. No Snap Kick, either.

Add on top of that the usual issues with "unarmed" PCs: can you enchant the spines? (Most natural weapons can't be enchanted. Assuming they count as natural weapons.) Can you use Improved Natural Attack or Warshaper to improve the damage by a piddly, meaningless amount?

Unless the DM is willing to loosen up how the spines are treated (natural weapons that can be either used as offhand or secondary attacks, can be used with other weapons), then avoid Spinemeld Warrior.

[Person_Man]

Over 10 levels, Spinemeld Warrior offers:

d10 hit die
7/10 BAB Full BAB
Garbage Skills
7 points of essentia
2 Soulborn Soulmelds
1 Chakra bind
Arms Chakra slot opened
You can fight with your spines (light weapons) with TWF, and free TWF Feat
You can invest essentia in your spines (max 4 points) for bonuses
Rend for 2d6 + (1.5*Str bonus)
Spines count as adamantine
Minor Skill bonuses


And that's pretty much it. By comparison, 10 levels of Totemist gets you 7 points of essentia, 6 soulmelds, 3 chakra binds, opens up the Totem and Crown and Feet and Hands and Arms and Brow and Shoulder chakra slots, and other base class abilities better then what the Spinemeld Warrior gets.

It's a terrible prestige class that would need a complete rewrite to be useful.

[animewatcha]

They get full BAB not 7/10. Also, the two light weapon thing can't be combined with any other weapons in the sense of spine and dagger. Can still make other secondary natural attacks with it. Also, like I said before, soulmeld limit is by con score instead of 'con score or class level/meldshaper level'.

[Keld Denar]

Also, like I said before, soulmeld limit is by con score instead of 'con score or class level/meldshaper level'.

Incorrect. I don't know where you get this from.


Meldshaping: You have the ability to shape a small number of soulmelds. At 3rd level, you can shape one meld at the beginning of each day, and at 7th level, you can shape up to two per day. The maximum number of soulmelds that you can shape simultaneously equals your Constitution score minus 10. <snip>

Basically, you can shape 1 soulmeld as long as you are 3rd level and have a Con of 11, and you can shape 2 as long as you are 7th level and have a Con of 12. If you have soulmelds from other sources, the total soulmelds you could shape in a day is limited to those granted by both classes or your Con-10, whichever is lower.

This is reflected as well in Table 6-7. I don't know where you are coming up with this "limited only by Con" idea, but it is wrong. The last sentence in that quote is the blanket sentence that all meldshapers share. Irregardless of all other limiting factors, the highest number of soulmelds you can shape is always capped by your Con score.

It's kinda like how a spellcaster can't cast a 6th level spell if they only have a 15 in their casting stat. That is all that that sentence is stating. They still only ever get 2 melds max from Spinemeld Warrior, regardless of Con.

[Darrin]

They get full BAB not 7/10. Also, the two light weapon thing can't be combined with any other weapons in the sense of spine and dagger. Can still make other secondary natural attacks with it. Also, like I said before, soulmeld limit is by con score instead of 'con score or class level/meldshaper level'.

The text states:

"Twin Spine Fighting (Ex): At 1st level, you can attack with the spines on both of your arms as if you were fighting with two light weapons. You cannot combine this ability with attacks using any other weapons."

Emphasis added. Natural weapons (such as bites, claws, unarmed strikes, etc.) are still weapons. Ergo, you cannot use them if you are using TWF with your spines.

[animewatcha]

@keld denar. How many one can shape per day is obvious. The maximum that can be had per day is what I mentioned as 'soulmeld limit'.

Please look at the meldshaping entries for incarnate page 21, soulborn on 26 and totemist page 30 ( aka the three root classes for this mess ). They all mentioned limitations by con score or the class level whichever is lower. Now look at the Spine warrior entry. Mentions only con score as limit. Therefore, via shaping over several days, you can as many soulmelds ( from the soulborn list ) as your con score will allow ( aka the Spinemeld Warrior 'soulmeld limit' ). I would not be mentioning this unless it was different.

@darrin: As in you can't treat the spine as 'two weapons' if you use other weapons like spine and dagger, Longsword and spine. I am talking about bite, claw, etc. happening AFTER the attack routine with the spines. Kinda like secondary natural attacks AFTER the flurry of blows attack routine. Imposing the -5 to attack roll and half str mod bonus thingers.

[Darrin]

@darrin: As in you can't treat the spine as 'two weapons' if you use other weapons like spine and dagger, Longsword and spine. I am talking about bite, claw, etc. happening AFTER the attack routine with the spines. Kinda like secondary natural attacks AFTER the flurry of blows attack routine. Imposing the -5 to attack roll and half str mod bonus thingers.

"Attack routine" is not defined anywhere in the rules. As far as I know, even the FAQ doesn't even attempt such a thing. This is the same argument about whether or not a natural weapon can be used "outside" or "after" a Flurry of Blows "routine". As near as I can tell, the FAQ implies attacks that happen on the same turn as a Flurry are subject to the same restrictions from Flurry, even if they happen "after" the Flurry. The rules are very, very murky here, enough so that this boils down to a "DM's Call".

Another problem with your argument: There's no rule that says secondary attacks always happen after iterative attacks. We frequently order them that way because it's easier to remember, but if we went by a purely strict reading of RAW, all attacks have to happen in order of attack bonus. This means if you have a third offhand attack due to Greater TWF (-10), it should actually be rolled after your secondary natural attacks (-5). Ordered thusly, there is no distinct "TWF routine" subset that can be safely derived from the entire "attack routine" as a whole, or at least not from a "before" or "after" standpoint.

The Spinemeld Warrior text also makes no such distinction between "before/after". As the rule is currently written, any attack with a non-spine weapon on a turn you use your spines would be illegal.

[animewatcha]

Another example of WOTC screwups due to jumping ship too soon and no errata for MoI?

[Darrin]

Another example of WOTC screwups due to jumping ship too soon and no errata for MoI?

Normally I'd be inclined to agree, but in this case it's pretty clear the designer didn't like the idea of mixing the spines with other weapons, because he put two rules in print to discourage it, once in the Skarn description and the other in Spinemeld Warrior. So I'd chalk this one up to the designer didn't playtest this enough or never played much with TWF, and thus never got his tuchus handed to him by a halfway-decent Totemist or Two-Handed Ubercharger.

[Vaz]

You can get decent mileage with that out of oddly, the Bladesinger; knowledge coming from the last Iron Chef. You need to hold a single longsword and be unarmed in the other hand, but you still get your Spinemeld attacks. Stack it with Swashbuckler 3 for Int synergy with Warblade for Int to Damage.

This gives you a finesseable Int to Damage weapon, with a decent set of skills which makes up for its own lacking ones.

[Essence_of_War]

I made an attempt at fixing some of the problems of the Spinemeld Warrior when I was excited by the fluff of them, but very disappointed by the crunch.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222808

My goal was to fix two main problems:
1) As written, the Skarn's natural weapon is already kind of weird, and the Spinemeld Warrior class just makes it weirder. I tried to make this coherent and an option that a player might actually WANT to use.
2) The meldshaping progression is just awful. I tried to take a page from the War Mind, which gives about 15 levels of PsyWar PP/max-power-known progression in 10 levels. I improved the meldshaping progression (and specifically, the essentia progression) dramatically.

I think it would play just fine with ToB classes, Psychic Warriors, and Duskblades. Heck, I'd recommend entry from a ToB class!

Edit: Also, if you read through and find anything that needs editing or clarification, please let me know!