Pathfinder Healing

[Story]

What are the best and cheapest ways to get healing in Pathfinder? All the standard methods are gone. No Healing Belt, no Lesser Vigor. Only the lowly Wand of Cure Light Wounds is still there, and my party is burning through them like crazy.

There is a level 7 Druid in the party, but they can't even summon Unicorns anymore.

[Grasharm]

If your best "healing" class is a level 7 Druid I can see why your having trouble.

So the only thing I can think of without knowing what the other characters are summon monster. Starting at 5th level the ability of a lantern archon with SM3 to cast aid at will to give 1d8+3 temp hp is some decent preventative healing at 5th level. This lets you continually "heal" a character throughout combat by keeping them topped off on temp hp so that less natural hp is lost. Also a lantern archon's beam attack is a ranged touch so has a high probability of hitting so it's either restore temp hp to an injured character and if it doesn't need to do that slap something for a few points of damage. At higher levels you can take advantage of the ability to summon more archons in a single use of the ability at 7th, at 9th you get the Bralani for two castings of cure serious and at will blur buffs, at 11th you can upgrade to a lillend for two cure serious and five cure lights, at 13th I'm afraid it's more Lillends, at 15th its even more lillends but at 1d4+1 your looking at a possible 10 cure serious with 25 cure light wounds per use of this ability. Finally at 17 you get summon monster IX for the astral Deva or more importantly on the healing aspect the Ghaele. The both have heal but the while the deva has 7 cure light wounds the Ghaele has cure light wounds at will, restoration, three cure serious and a slew of incredible other spells like wall of force and divine power. I feel I should warn you though the Lillends and Ghaele get their superior cure ability from being casters themselves with memorized spells. If your DM felt like messing with you he would be well within his rights to say that the Ghaele that you summoned already used those spells or that they decided to memorize different ones form the commonly memorized spells list given in the monsters description.

Using the summons method you can also get huge mileage out of a metamagic rod of empower and/maximize. Mostly maximize though. You start out with the summoner having the rod. Summoning 1d3 or 1d4+1 monsters maxed out to 3 (4 with superior summons) and 5 (6 with superior) monsters respectively. Here is where the area gets a little into that murky gray stuff. You now hand your rod off to the monster you just summoned. Since he is going to use either a spell or Spell like ability he can maximize his healing spells and since the rod specifies it confers ability to it's wielder each new wield get 3 maximizes off since it's the wielder not the rod that is being timed out at 3 times a day. Then before he dies or goes on his final suicide charge he can hand the rod off your druid or one of the other Bralani or even get it back to you to summon up more maximized monsters. As an added bonus to your gray area goodness since HP is rolled at the time of the summons you could make a case for your monsters having max hp allowing the m to soak up more combat damage thus cushion your heroes a little more.

Like I said that is the best I can do without knowing party makeup.

[grarrrg]

Like I said that is the best I can do without knowing party makeup.

I think they have a few Rouges.
*rimshot*

[NinjaInTheRye]

Infernal Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing) gets anyone fast healing 1 for a minute if you're willing to make use of [evil] spells.

[Story]

Healing 10 hp for a level 1 spell is definitely better than CLW's 5.5. But I doubt the DM will let us use it.

As for party makeup. I believe it is Cavalier, Magus, Monk, Wizard, Druid, Rouge, all level 7.

[Grasharm]

All right, something to work with.

Cavalier - ummm, probably nothing you can do here. If the player wanted to he could ask the GM if he took religious vows would he let him convert his levels over to paladin since a paladin is basically a religious knight. Otherwise he can't help in this area.

Magnus - Well he has acess to vamp. touch so he can help himself a little... hrmm not a good rbi for this topic so far.

Monk - has wholeness of body to help himself by expending 2 ki. If he wants to he can take extra ki feat. Each time will give him enough ki to do wholeness one more time a day.

Wizard - Already covered the wizard and is probably your best bet for pulling more healing out of you tush with this crew.

Druid - is already your main healer

Rouge - Yeah I have nothin'.

[NamelessNPC]

I think they have a few Rouges.
*rimshot*

I think this passed over some heads

[avr]

CLW wands are there to be burned through. BTW, Rogue. Rouge is makeup, aka blusher.

Edit: yeah, missed grarrg's white text & took his joke seriously.

[Grasharm]

And I'm dyslexic so jokes that rely on subtle spellings are usually lost on me. I also tend to spell things the way I saw them earlier because I don't trust my memory of how things are properly spelled. God I love spell checker.

[Ravens_cry]

Healing 10 hp for a level 1 spell is definitely better than CLW's 5.5. But I doubt the DM will let us use it.

It's potentially even better with the Fast Healer feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fast-healer).

[Keneth]

Healing 10 hp for a level 1 spell is definitely better than CLW's 5.5. But I doubt the DM will let us use it.

Wait? What? What would the DM need to let you use it? :smallconfused:

Wands of Infernal Healing are standard business in Pathfinder and your Magus can use them no problem. SKR ruled that using [evil] spells is an evil act but we all know morality isn't quite as black and white, and while the rules do support the notion, there's no indication of what that might imply in the long run.

[Ravens_cry]

Probably not going to do great things for a Paladin, and a Cleric of a God dedicated to fighting devils and perhaps fiends in general might take issue as well. The hilarious thing is technically all that devil blood is in your Standard Issue Material Component Pouch.

[Keneth]

My sorceress prefers using her ruby holy symbol of Asmodeus with False Focus, actually.

My magus also managed to convince his paladin companion to receive the gift of infernal healing. Granted she wasn't happy at all about the source, but the situation was dire.

Overall using infernal healing (and other [evil] spells) may be corrupting for the soul and guarantee you a one way ticket to Hell, but it more than evens out in light of all your good acts, so it shouldn't affect your alignment. Most adventurers are mass murderers anyway, if you can justify killing living creatures for the greater good, you should have no trouble with a spell that happens to originate from a questionable source.

Besides, Asmodeus is pretty much the highest authority there is. Virtually the entire material plane has him (and his dead brother Ihsy) to thank for its existence in the first place, and it is only by his good will that he permits it to continue.

All praise to the Dark Prince.

[Hendel]

All right, something to work with.

Cavalier - ummm, probably nothing you can do here. If the player wanted to he could ask the GM if he took religious vows would he let him convert his levels over to paladin since a paladin is basically a religious knight. Otherwise he can't help in this area.

Magnus - Well he has acess to vamp. touch so he can help himself a little... hrmm not a good rbi for this topic so far.

Monk - has wholeness of body to help himself by expending 2 ki. If he wants to he can take extra ki feat. Each time will give him enough ki to do wholeness one more time a day.

Wizard - Already covered the wizard and is probably your best bet for pulling more healing out of you tush with this crew.

Druid - is already your main healer

Rouge - Yeah I have nothin'.
I DM a Pathfinder group with a samurai, ninja, barbarian, sorcerer, and bard.

The ninja and bard are maxed out on UMD and have a huge amount of wands and staves to heal in battle or out of battle. They have made it to 12th level without major healing, but it has been tough.

BTW the UMD also helps for combat effective use of wands and staves.

That means that I would look to your rogue to supplement your druid's healing with Use Magic Device. Make sure you have lots of potions and scrolls (druid) to help conserve the druid's spell selection. But a UMD check of 20 for the wand is probably going to be your best bet.

Other than that, look for someone to take leadership and beg the DM for a cleric or oracle of life.

[Andreaz]

Port back 3.5's stuff if you really don't want to use infernal healing. I find the reasons not to use it so far quite... feeble but that's beyond me.

If you can add other characters, consider the Vitalist.

[Mighty_Chicken]

That's why I think every class should be able to heal, at least a bit.

In the very least the Heal skill should be buffed. Not to get as powerful a Cure spell, but close.

[Andreaz]

That's why I think every class should be able to heal, at least a bit.

In the very least the Heal skill should be buffed. Not to get as powerful a Cure spell, but close.A way to do it is to make the Cure series heal based on your heal check.
Quite often we directly added the Heal ranks to the amount healed in each casting out of combat.

[Keneth]

Well, without resorting to homebrew, the Heal skill in Pathfinder does allow you to cure actual hit points once per day. In addition, a full day's rest combined with one of the players (or an NPC) tending the party heals 4 times the usual resting amount, which is often significant enough to heal most characters back to full health. If time is not a luxury, tending during normal rest still allows the characters to heal twice the normal amount, which saves up on resources. There's also a spell that grants a character the benefit of rest while tending to the wounded, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was called. Of course natural healing has the nasty side effect of leaving scars (no RAW for scarring yet though).

[Story]

Regarding Infernal Healing, the DM said that " he'd be taking steps towards Evil with every use" and "It's easier to fall than it is to rise."

So I'd say that's a no.

[Keneth]

Well that's not based on any official PF rules, but ultimately the impact on alignment is up to the DM. Either way, only the person casting the spell is affected by the alignment change and using wands isn't equivalent to casting a spell in the first place, so it's even more of a gray area. Lastly, slipping towards evil is hardly the end of the world, it doesn't automatically mean the character turns around starts killing everything in sight including the party. Token evil characters are good for party ambience anyway.

[stack]

Research a new spell, celestial healing, identical to infernal but [good] using the spell research rules. Needs DM approval, but should be kosher.

[Earthwalker]

Can you get a staff with some cure spells on it.
Then recharge the staff the next day with spell slots from one on of the many casters in the group.

That way you only pay once not having to constantly pay for wands ?

[Keneth]

Or, you know, make it troll healing, put it also on the druid's spell list, and skip the alignment shenanigans altogether.

[Hendel]

Can you get a staff with some cure spells on it.
Then recharge the staff the next day with spell slots from one on of the many casters in the group.

That way you only pay once not having to constantly pay for wands ?
The problem with recharging staves is that it is a slow process. You can only recharge one charge per day, per caster. That caster has to at least have one of the spells on the staff on his list and he is capable of casting one of the spells. Then he has to forgo a slot with his highest spell level that is on the staff.

Not a huge issue if you have a couple weeks in town, but not a great idea while in the field. That is why pound per pound a wand of cure light wounds is great for healing up OUTSIDE of combat. In a combat you will want to bring as much to bear as possible to get healed up quick and without a lot of wasted time.

[Story]

If we were going to do that, we'd just craft a bunch of Pearl of Power Is. But by my calculations, you need around 37 days of usage before it equals the Wand of Cure Light Wounds in cost.

[Hendel]

If we were going to do that, we'd just craft a bunch of Pearl of Power Is. But by my calculations, you need around 37 days of usage before it equals the Wand of Cure Light Wounds in cost.
Pearls of Power I are great, especially if the wizard or druid can craft them at 500gp a pop. They are the gift that keeps on giving (kind of like Jell-o of the Month Club). Of course with Craft Wand, the druid could also make cheap wands that the rogue and others could use with UMD in a pinch. That would be the benefit of the wand over the pearl.

There is always the very drab use of potions. I think a few of my parties have left a trail of empty potion bottles and spent wands across the country side as when we traveled without a cleric.

[Bhaakon]

Research a new spell, celestial healing, identical to infernal but [good] using the spell research rules. Needs DM approval, but should be kosher.

Bleeding a celestial to cure your booboo? That's seems like it would be extra evil.

[stack]

Bleeding a celestial to cure your booboo? That's seems like it would be extra evil.

Eh, change the component to something more voluntary, bit a hair or something. Or go with the troll suggestion above. Always thought the various material components where kind of silly since you don't track them anyway.

[Mighty_Chicken]

A way to do it is to make the Cure series heal based on your heal check.
Quite often we directly added the Heal ranks to the amount healed in each casting out of combat.

But you still would need to use magic, right?

I houserule that each character can be healed in combat by a Heal check once per day. Standard action, causes AoO, DC 15, 1d4+1 HP healed. If you beat the DC by 5 or more you can add you Heal ranks.

It's worse than CLW and it should be. Never had to use it for higher levels than 3rd, though. I wouldn't know how to scale this appropriately, though I'm homebrewing something about this :)

I'm thinking of making each class have a more class-specific/relevant way of doing it than just tending other person's abovementioned booboos.

[Andreaz]

But you still would need to use magic, right?

I houserule that each character can be healed in combat by a Heal check once per day. Standard action, causes AoO, DC 15, 1d4+1 HP healed. If you beat the DC by 5 or more you can add you Heal ranks.

It's worse than CLW and it should be. Never had to use it for higher levels than 3rd, though. I wouldn't know how to scale this appropriately, though I'm homebrewing something about this :)

I'm thinking of making each class have a more class-specific/relevant way of doing it than just tending other person's abovementioned booboos.

Right, you still have to use the spells. The Cure line kinda sucks anyway, so we nixed most spells and added Heal ranks to the amount cured.(Wands use the creator's ranks just like all other caster-side variables)
The nonmagical healing is standard in PF though. A heal check once per day to recover some hp, more than 1d4+1 iirc.

[Keneth]

The nonmagical healing is standard in PF though. A heal check once per day to recover some hp, more than 1d4+1 iirc.

Indeed, it's the creature's HD (DC 20) + your Wis modifier (DC 25), so it can be pretty decent. Takes an hour per creature though and expends healer's kit uses or you take a -2 penalty for each use of the kit you don't expend (not an issue if your Heal modifier is +19 though).

Applying a bonus to healing magic that reflects your Heal skill is a pretty common house rule though and I fully support it. Starving the party of healing only bogs down the adventure.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The Glorious Heat feat, combined with the spark orison, used to be a way to get infinite healing. Unfortunately, Paizo freaked the hell out and nerfed the feat into uselessness (previously, it healed half your CL per divine fire spell you cast; now it heals 1 hp per spell level :smallannoyed: ). If you can get your DM to allow the original version, it is pretty nice. Well, spending a feat isn't nice. But healing the party by setting fires or through "magical voodoo hippy candle burning" is pretty awesome. My druid just used candles. Standard for spark orison, move action to blow the candle out, and repeat.

[VanIsleKnight]

Isn't there an Ioun stone that grants fast healing? Or at least restores some HP every level?

I think there were some wondrous items that let you double/triple/improve your day's rest of healing, which could be combined with other wondrous items that gave you 3-5 days' worth of rested healing in the span of 8 hours.

Which I think worked with being tended to overnight, if you have time to rest and not get ambushed.

I guess the question is, do you want Cheap and Fast? Or Cheap and Slow? Because I think that there are more options for Cheap and Slow, if you don't mind waiting a little while, and it'd still be faster than just hibernating for a week.

[Karoht]

Is anyone in the party Lawful Good?
Yes? Awesome. Spend the money on a few scrolls. Paladin4/Cleric 7, Bestow Grace of Champion.
Essentially, it confers a few levels of Paladin on the target. This includes some Smite Evil action, Charisma to saves, Lay on Hands, and Channel.
So you get some ass whuppin power and healing power, and the bonus to saves and AC (while smiting) is pretty good. Swift action self heals are pretty awesome with Lay on Hands, good action economy. But when the fight ends? Burn all the remaining Lay on Hands and Channels and top up the whole party. Why not right?


At higher levels, "healing" really changes. It becomes less and less about hit points and more about prevention, removing debuffs/ailments and anything that prevents them from being able to combat the enemy. And where possible, making the enemy have a harder time hurting your party. If you use divination well, you can make educated guesses about how to best approach those problems every day.

At low levels, the Heal skill and evening rest are capable of restoring a decent chunk of damage every day, even stat damage. Aid is an awesome spell at low level, as you buff an ally AND give them spare hit points to burn. Blessing of Courage and Life is a 2nd level spell (great wand material) which gives bonuses to saves VS Fear/Death and it acts as a contingent heal too. It leaves a charge on an ally, and the ally can trigger it themselves to activate the heal, or it goes off automatically if the ally is ever reduced to zero hit points.

Yeah, the summons = healers trick can be very economic, especially if you have a summoner in the party who knows how to make the most of things. Great action economy that, 1D3 or 1D4+1 healers will get the job done faster than just 1.

[Keneth]

The Glorious Heat feat, combined with the spark orison, used to be a way to get infinite healing. Unfortunately, Paizo freaked the hell out and nerfed the feat into uselessness

To be fair, they didn't actually nerf anything (excepting PFS) since they refuse to release official erratas unless they plan on reprinting the book (which is frankly ridiculous and annoying), so by RAW this still works. And I see no real reason it shouldn't, in most campaigns there is absolutely no good excuse as to why you want to force the party into buying 50 wands of clw or making them rest for 3 days.

[VanIsleKnight]

"I don't want to wait to heal, this is an adventure, forward with adventure!"

It's a wonder people don't just let themselves be at max HP whenever an encounter ends, since it only seems to be a hindrance and annoyance once people are out of combat anyway.

*doesn't think that players are at -all- self entitled*

[Keneth]

Honestly, while it contributes significantly to the realism, and I've never actually not forced my players to heal by conventional means, what is the actual difference if the HP did restore to max at the end of an encounter or chain thereof? Maybe that's a little dramatic, but at the very least, if the characters fully healed after resting, I wouldn't have any problem with that. Because it really is just a hindrance, much like forcing players to eat meals, take potty breaks, wash themselves (and their clothes), dry themselves off after precipitation (if you have rain at all in your campaign), keep precise track of the size and weight of their loot (including gold) for purposes of encumbrance, and perform any number of other menial tasks that slow down the game. Our sessions last roughly between 5-7 hours which includes 2 or sometimes 3 combat scenarios and the rest is spent dealing with the aftermath. Depending on the DM, it can take us up to 3 months to finish a single chapter of an adventure path, when it should take about a month with weekly sessions. I'm not saying it's not a valid gameplay style, but I fully support any steps towards speeding up the out-of-combat mechanics.

[Grasharm]

It seems we are starting to wander away from the main point here so I started another thread for where I think this discussion is going or maybe just where I want it to go http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14949476#post14949476 (here).

As for infernal healing's non-problem of being evil and giving an evil aura I wouldn't completely discount it as a drawback. My group just lost it's cleric till they can atone because while we where helping the people from his church. The local church of Iomedae. When we became separated in a battle. The followers ran off after a relic that was being carried off leaving us to take on the main group without their support. After a pitched battle we where healing up and the sorcerer pulled out infernal healing as usual. As we where healing the clerics came back with the relic which instantly turned red in our now evil presence. This caused the head priest to denounce us as heretics and daemons posing as the faithful. Battle ensued again. The aftermath of which was the cleric lost his abilities for not submitting to rightful punishment from his superior, the head cleric, and then killing said superior.

When he complained it was a catch 22 my gm just pointed out that we could have surrendered. Sure they jumped into combat but we could have dropped our weapons just gave in and waited to be tried by the church. We would have gotten roughed up some but they are clerics of Iomedae, and we know they wouldn't kill an unarmed opponent, after all we have been adventuring with one of their clerics for quite some time.

[TuggyNE]

It seems we are starting to wander away from the main point here so I started another thread for where I think this discussion is going or maybe just where I want it to go http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14949476#post14949476 (here).

Fixy the link, please.

[Story]

and we know they wouldn't kill an unarmed opponent

Are Sorcerors ever unarmed? They don't really have any way to tell.