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paddyfool
2013-03-21, 08:04 AM
So... I've a convoluted idea that would fit best in a points of light setting without gods (but doesn't have to depend on either) and would like to run it by you:

Imagine in a generally dark and dangerous setting that there's one particular city which seems blessed and protected. It has the run of minor crime and so forth, but monsters give it a wide berth, armies attempting to march on it meet with disaster, and myths abound of unseen protectors who come to the aid of those in trouble within or near the city bounds (and are occasionally rumoured to act elsewhere). Those in trouble within the city even know that by speaking certain words, they may get aid from unseen sources in time of need; but these words are used cautiously, since misfortune follows those who say them flippantly, or who say them to seek protection from just punishment.

It was not always thus; the old records show there was a time when this city was like any other, and indeed was almost destroyed a few centuries back, but for the intervention of a few heroes. But that from that time to this, the city has been safe and remarkably unscathed by the larger troubles of the world. Its rulers have also been unusually well behaved, and not known to indulge in excessive cruelty or corruption; in fact, they have almost shown a nervous habit of making sure they are cleaner than clean.

So, basically, the heroes of old never left; they linger on, hidden within/beneath the city as sentient undead. A fate they chose for themselves, anticipating future grave threats to the city which they expected it would be unable to counter (probably some specific threat would work best, e.g. something involving demons).

Now, mechanically... in 3.5 terms, a primary caster who became a suitable type of undead (e.g. lich or ghost) would be essential to the concept, but you could also have any combination of vampires, death knights, mummies etc. you like. (I was originally thinking of something like a wizard lich and his death knight warblade friend, but there are lots of combinations that might work for this). They could have an army of similarly undying servants hidden away (golems or whatever); they could rest in a kind of sleep or suspended animation until something happens that trips various "danger" alerts they have in place (such as the optional code phrase); or they could be a generally more alert and active presence, depending on the GM's preference.

Myths might abound of their presence; of a dark and terrifying figure who comes only for the worst of villains (the death knight), or of a mysterious unseen presence who comes to protect and save the innocent, and more subtly defeat the wicked (the wizard lich), or whatever you like. But only the most powerful figures in the city know anything of the truth, and only because the heroes of old (HOO*) want those in "power" to know that they themselves are under constant scrutiny for signs of misdeeds.

Plot hooks:
At lower level, the party might simply find this city to be a good, safe place to heal up, stock up, and head out.
At mid-level or higher, the HOO might act as quest-givers etc. in disguise, seeking to assist others along the path of heroism and maybe expand their protective influence to the wider world.
At high level, a ruler of the city, himself in league with demons, otherwise villainous, or simply embittered about him and his family having been kept at the beck and call of the HOO for generations, might seek out the party and tell them of sinister forces who have secretly taken over the city and have some terrible fate in store for it, and try to get them to seek out and destroy the HOO...
EDIT: The HOO would also work as natural high-level antagonists for an evil party. Or if their original altruistic intent has been warped by their undead nature, and maybe the entire city only seems nice and is actually living in fear of them, they could also work as more straight-forward antagonists for a good party.

* Not a great name, just easy to type.

Sampi
2013-03-21, 08:38 AM
Oh I like this. Good idea!

Scow2
2013-03-21, 10:00 AM
For composition and iconicness, the party should probably be a Mummy Cleric, Deathknight Warblade, Lich Wizard, and Bat-themed Vampire Rogue.

Kol Korran
2013-03-21, 10:36 AM
it's a very interesting idea, with quite a bit of potential in it. I'd suggest that the HOO might add a suitable person to their ranks now and then, as the city expand, old comrades are destroyed and so on. they may even seek to test/ align with/ oppose the PCs for that reason. this gives the party an opportunity to meet with the undying guardians early on, and perhaps even face their lesser members.

they might cultivate a net of informants/ allies/ resources that help them due to the myths/ mis information they build upon them, something akin to a cult, not knowing the true nature of their benefactors, but believing them to be good for the city. I imagine the PCs will think this is some sort of ruse or conspiracy, which might add to the interest of things.

I think investing in making them interesting characters with an interesting history that might come to light is key to this concept, and making them memorable.

cool idea! would love to hear how you developed it further...

JeenLeen
2013-03-21, 10:51 AM
In the Book of Exalted Deeds, there is a type of good 'undead' called the Deathless introduced. Basically they are undead powered by positive energy instead of negative energy (so good clerics bolster them and evil clerics can turn them).

I don't know if that would help your concept. I don't think it went into a lot of detail on types of undead, so no versions of good mummy or good lich, for example (though I hear good liches exist in one of the setting books.)

There's no need to use the Deathless, but this would avoid the whole "but you are undead" concern about the good HOO. Of course, that could be a good plot hook to get the party to work for the bad guys before they figure out they are bad. A human noble trying to root out a cabal of undead secretly ruling the city? Sounds great, until you find out the cabal of undead are heroes and the noble an evil cultist.

Rhynn
2013-03-21, 11:59 AM
Technically, I think the Deathless are originally Eberron. They're basically this plus Faerūn's elven baelnorn liches (advisor-guardians to their Houses).

This also sounds like the Gods of Lankhmar (not the Gods of Lankhmar), who are slumbering undead guardians of the city.

paddyfool
2013-03-21, 06:45 PM
Thank you all for the feedback!

@Kol Korran,

Thank you for throwing in some very interesting ideas and nuances - I'll try and make a good fist of this soon :)

@JeenLeen,

It's a good suggestion, and I considered it... but I found the idea of a past group of heroes who'd sacrificed everything, even their humanity, and were now duly warped by actually being undead rather more tempting.

@Rhynn,

One of these days I really should read the tales of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser...

Scow2
2013-03-21, 08:29 PM
Technically, I think the Deathless are originally Eberron. They're basically this plus Faerūn's elven baelnorn liches (advisor-guardians to their Houses).

This also sounds like the Gods of Lankhmar (not the Gods of Lankhmar), who are slumbering undead guardians of the city.

They're originally Book of Exalted Deeds. Eberron just revisited the concept and put them to practical application.

Erik Vale
2013-03-21, 09:17 PM
Somewhere on the forum is other types of liches for martial classes/non-arcanes/other in the form of homebrew. [Praise google and click search, and you will find.] That will grant you the real 'undying' of ones other than wizards, unless you wan't them to all be ghosts. Also gives more variety to the 'break the phylactory' scenarios.

paddyfool
2013-03-31, 01:55 PM
Backstory
(Apologies for a lack of finesse in writing style; critique would be appreciated).


The floor of the room is drenched in blood, its walls scorched with fire. Corpses dressed in strange robes lie where they fell, but there is no celebration for the three victors, who are fast learning they came too late. The ritual was already completed before their arrival. Two of them stand in discussion, while the third moves about the room, searching for any item which may lend them some shred of hope or advantage.

"How long do we have now?" asks the tallest of the three, his body encased in plate steel.

"Barely 4 hours until the eclipse, and the prophecied arrival of the demon lord," replied another, dressed in nondescript garb but wielding the staff of a sorceror.

"Whom "none living can withstand". And I doubt the four golems we managed to purchase would do much better either."

"No..."

"However, I have another idea. Remember when we defeated Sir Kloxan? The similarities of his past and mine have long troubled me, but it gives us an opportunity, since the curse that bound him to undeath might also hold me... "

At this, the third, an elegantly dressed individual with a rapier and a cape stops searching, and is about to interrupt; however, the staff-wielder speaks first.

"We are of like mind, then. I have researched a means by which I may also stand in defence of the city... and I have prepared a housing for my soul, with only the last step of the ritual required for the transference. I believe there is time enough that we both may be able to..."

"NO!" states the third, unable to hold back any longer. "You cannot be serious. Why are you even contemplating doing this to yourselves?"

"Because we must, Avernon" replies the first. The second nods agreement.

"Amongst all the undead abominations we've fought and destroyed, was there one that you encountered which was not a soulless, inhumane being? How can you trust that what you will become will still wish to stand in defence of the city, and the world?"

The second answers him with a degree of barely restrained impatience. "The nature of the Dread Curse should hold Boreanon truer to a course of action than any mortal man. As for my transformation into a lich..."

"A WHAT?"

"You heard me. In any case, I feel confident that my resolve will hold. My memories should see to that."

"You're mad. Both of you."

"What other way is there? There's no time to research better alternatives."

The first, Boreanon, interjected at this point with another suggestion. "There may be time to move much of the population outside of the city now, however, if you go to the king immediately. That way, if all flee in different directions, some at least may survive for awhile, whatever becomes of us. More than a few, if there are brave men to protect them."

"You say I should run?"

"You must. Run, live, and seek help. We will make our preparations, and our stand."

...

Four hours later. A great winged figure strives against two smaller ones, amidst the remains of four shattered golems. The corpses of the king's guard lie still in formation, slain in the instant of the demon lord's arrival.

The two remaining figures wear clothes that smoulder in flame; Boreanon's sword is notched and his armour shows many breaks. But their dead faces are unperturbed, and not all has gone the demon lord's way. It also bears wounds dealt by both Boreanon's sword and Saman's castings.

The demon lord steps back, and utters words of power, the other two figures are blasted back against the wall of a nearby building with devastating force, even as a horse gallops in from the other side of the square. Avernon screams a challenge, and the demon lord turns and laughs as he snuffs the life out of man and steed with a gesture. In the distraction, however, the armoured figure rises from where he fell next to the pile of broken bones that was his ally, and his blade plunges deep into the back of the demon lord's torso.


400 years later

Saman, Wizard Lich
Lives in secret beneath the city. Over the centuries, he has crafted a multitude of hidden arcane defences both subtle and otherwise, including a small legion of golems, and a steady trickle of protective wards against demons and weapons to banish them carefully released into market circulation. His personal war against demonkind has stretched out to become a worldwide enterprise, and his hatred of them is the only evident passion in an otherwise largely emotionless persona. Amongst the deepest of his hidden chambers, finely crafted illusions display the most cherished memories of the life he once had; even though he now cares little for the city above him, and it, in turn, knows almost nothing of him.

Boreanon, death knight
Legends of the city tell of a knight who appears out of nowhere to avenge the worst of sins or to stand in defence of the city against invaders, inspiring all who behold him with awe and terror, riding a horselike steel construction and never taking off his helm. His appearances occur most often around the old quarter of the city, to the protection of which his curse binds him most tightly. His life of 400 years before is much more alive in his memory than the events of the present day.

Avernon, ghostly swordsman
The man who came back twice for his friends. A usually unseen presence who learns all the city's secrets while also righting various small wrongs and playing pranks on wrongdoers, before bringing back stories to keep the spark of what was human in Saman and Boreanon alive. Much the most human of the three.


Mechanics

These would vary based on system, obviously; my own next intention is to build them as NPCs in Fantasy Craft, but I'd be very interested in any mechanical interpretations in any other system which anyone would like to build. Saman's spellcasting could use pretty much any mould a GM might prefer; Boreanon would likely prefer straight up fighting or intimidation to use of other abilities being a Death Knight might grant, such as Words of Power, but still make use of them where appropriate; and Avernon might use both combat trickery enabled by his ghostly form and abilities based around inspiring others.

Optional fourth hero

I considered a fourth hero, in the classic mould of a cleric (particularly tempted by a female cleric who survived the conflict with the demon lord due to the protections of her faith, and lived to a ripe old age before being mummified according to ancient rites to join her friends, to whom she now adopts a kind of motherly role, having lived more than twice their span in years before undeath). Ultimately, I didn't flesh this one out because I rather felt the whole thing fit a godless setting better, but I'm also planning to throw in a mechanical interpretation.

Randel
2013-03-31, 07:06 PM
For an undying hero who's not undead, maybe one got turned to stone and the statue turned into an Animated Object. Mechanicaly, they could be like a warforged or some other living construct.

Or perhaps a dragon who takes on a human form and acts as a hero in defiance of his naturally evil nature (if he's a chromatic dragon). Or he could be one of the shiny good dragons. Either way, he justifes his heroic nature by saying "this is MY city and I always protect what is mine". When not personally fighting crime, he's likely an upstanding member of society who comes from a wealthy background. Though his family has a history of the parents dying suddenly and the sole heir having to take over.

In human form he's freakishly strong and a master sorcerer, only reverting to his true draconic form when he needs the power or to properly intimidate someone.

Zahhak
2013-03-31, 07:36 PM
I'm apparently late to the discussion, but hello!

I like the idea, but I'm not sure how much I like some of the specifics. You say that it has a low crime rate, which would imply to me that the undying guardians are basically omnipresent, but if there's three or four with physical bodies, well they cannot be everywhere and they have limited speed and maneuverability. When I first read through some of it, it seemed like non-corporeal creatures that can chose to affect physical objects: they can pass through walls and obstructions so that they can take the shortest route to an incident, or to chase after someone and they don't have to take a hit if they don't want to, which gives them a lot better survivability and a certain advantage in intimidate checks.

To fit with a darker theme, like you had in the OP, you could have it that the Undying Guardians feed on humanoid souls, and use them to regain HP and/or spells per day. They don't have to be from the population of course, but it fits with a darker general setting theme. Especially if it becomes an issue at some point.

You'd have to pretty much create a whole new undead type though. But that could also be a nice thing, because if players have to deal with them, it would be a lot more memorable then "that time we met the good liche"

TuggyNE
2013-03-31, 08:55 PM
In the Book of Exalted Deeds, there is a type of good 'undead' called the Deathless introduced. Basically they are undead powered by positive energy instead of negative energy (so good clerics bolster them and evil clerics can turn them).

I don't know if that would help your concept. I don't think it went into a lot of detail on types of undead, so no versions of good mummy or good lich, for example (though I hear good liches exist in one of the setting books.)

Mummies are not, strictly speaking, restricted by alignment (although their abilities are generally rather dark).

There are two varieties of good lich; archliches and baelnorns. I think they're both in one or another of the FR books, but not sure. (I'm not an FR nut.)

Rhynn
2013-03-31, 09:28 PM
There are two varieties of good lich; archliches and baelnorns. I think they're both in one or another of the FR books, but not sure. (I'm not an FR nut.)

Both in the 3.0 Monsters of Faerūn (there was an official downloadable conversion booklet).

paddyfool
2013-04-01, 10:24 AM
For an undying hero who's not undead, maybe one got turned to stone and the statue turned into an Animated Object. Mechanicaly, they could be like a warforged or some other living construct.

Or perhaps a dragon who takes on a human form and acts as a hero in defiance of his naturally evil nature (if he's a chromatic dragon). Or he could be one of the shiny good dragons. Either way, he justifes his heroic nature by saying "this is MY city and I always protect what is mine". When not personally fighting crime, he's likely an upstanding member of society who comes from a wealthy background. Though his family has a history of the parents dying suddenly and the sole heir having to take over.

In human form he's freakishly strong and a master sorcerer, only reverting to his true draconic form when he needs the power or to properly intimidate someone.

These would indeed work as undying protectors as well, but I'm rather sold on the sinister edge to making them undead.


I'm apparently late to the discussion, but hello!

Hi!


I like the idea, but I'm not sure how much I like some of the specifics. You say that it has a low crime rate, which would imply to me that the undying guardians are basically omnipresent, but if there's three or four with physical bodies, well they cannot be everywhere and they have limited speed and maneuverability.

All I said about crime was that it had "the run of minor crime". The idea being that these protectors only bother with what they see as major problems. Unless you mean the bit about there being secret phrases you could use to summon the help of these protectors; something that I'm no longer feeling is entirely necessary... but even if they had set up such a system, they might well Scry-and-ignore if it's not something they felt was worth doing anything about.

Basically, the whole thing was developed from a starting premise of "what if a city had formerly heroic undead protectors".


When I first read through some of it, it seemed like non-corporeal creatures that can chose to affect physical objects: they can pass through walls and obstructions so that they can take the shortest route to an incident, or to chase after someone and they don't have to take a hit if they don't want to, which gives them a lot better survivability and a certain advantage in intimidate checks.

To fit with a darker theme, like you had in the OP, you could have it that the Undying Guardians feed on humanoid souls, and use them to regain HP and/or spells per day. They don't have to be from the population of course, but it fits with a darker general setting theme. Especially if it becomes an issue at some point.

You'd have to pretty much create a whole new undead type though. But that could also be a nice thing, because if players have to deal with them, it would be a lot more memorable then "that time we met the good liche"

It's certainly an interesting concept, albeit different to what I was running with. With reference to your final comment, however, these protectors don't have to be Good... in 3.5 terms, any Lawful alignment you like could fit both the lich and the death knight pretty well in the present day, although to make the sacrifices they did 400 years ago, they would almost certainly have been non-Evil at the time. (The ghost, meanwhile, is definitely non-Evil as conceived; you could probably make any non-Evil alignment work, although I was kind of thinking of him as CG). The lich and death knight's motivation to protect the city (as a cherished bit of their past, and/or as a binding bit of a curse, or whatever) doesn't mean that they have to generally play nice with others.

Zahhak
2013-04-01, 07:05 PM
All I said about crime was that it had "the run of minor crime". The idea being that these protectors only bother with what they see as major problems. Unless you mean the bit about there being secret phrases you could use to summon the help of these protectors; something that I'm no longer feeling is entirely necessary... but even if they had set up such a system, they might well Scry-and-ignore if it's not something they felt was worth doing anything about.

Well, either way really. If you have four monster killers on one side of the city, and a brutal rape-murder-demon summon on the other, do you think they'll be able to do much about it? Nope. The rape-murder-demon summon will be done long before they get there.


It's certainly an interesting concept, albeit different to what I was running with. With reference to your final comment, however, these protectors don't have to be Good... in 3.5 terms, any Lawful alignment you like could fit both the lich and the death knight pretty well in the present day, although to make the sacrifices they did 400 years ago, they would almost certainly have been non-Evil at the time. (The ghost, meanwhile, is definitely non-Evil as conceived; you could probably make any non-Evil alignment work, although I was kind of thinking of him as CG). The lich and death knight's motivation to protect the city (as a cherished bit of their past, and/or as a binding bit of a curse, or whatever) doesn't mean that they have to generally play nice with others.

Replace "good" with "lawful" and my comment remains.

TuggyNE
2013-04-01, 07:25 PM
Well, either way really. If you have four monster killers on one side of the city, and a brutal rape-murder-demon summon on the other, do you think they'll be able to do much about it? Nope. The rape-murder-demon summon will be done long before they get there.

Assuming one of them is some sort of caster (assumed in the OP), it shouldn't take more than a couple rounds at most for all of them to arrive. That demands stunningly fast action by any would-be criminals, and there's always the possibility of after-the-fact investigation to figure out who was responsible.

Zahhak
2013-04-01, 08:00 PM
I should probably remember that some people are "spellcasters" who can use this "teleport" bull****.

TuggyNE
2013-04-01, 11:18 PM
I should probably remember that some people are "spellcasters" who can use this "teleport" bull****.

Yes. Yes, that might be wise. :smalltongue:

Randel
2013-04-02, 08:51 AM
These would indeed work as undying protectors as well, but I'm rather sold on the sinister edge to making them undead.


Maybe something like a homebrew Weeping Angel like from Doctor Who? A living statue that is frozen (and indestructible) when you look at it, but the second you blink it can run at you super fast. If it catches you, it erases you from existence and feeds on the years of life you had left.

The angels are especially creepy because they are silent and stealthy. They literally cannot harm you so long as see them, but if they catch you unawares you're dead! The fact that they can't be killed by normal means, are trained in stealth, and only can kill you if you don't see them would make them a terror for anyone they hunt.

Have one of these guys be a guardian and bad guys will have nervous breakdowns as a silent, immortal assassin tracks them down and all but promises to end them as soon as they blink their eyes.

paddyfool
2013-04-02, 02:15 PM
Heh. I wasn't planning on any of them being statues, but the Lich would have a small army of golems at his disposal, which can lead to interestingly creepy situations, especially if combined with suitable illusions.

Meanwhile, I'm still sold on the Lich / Death Knight / Ghost combo, but I've thought of an idea now for the fourth member of this little band which I like better than the prior motherly Mummy Cleric idea: a priestess of Light who managed to complete a transformation into an elemental being (of Light). Now upheld as a saint by the major religion in the city (whether or not you have gods in a setting, you'll almost certainly still have religions) and remembered much better than the others as the saviour of the city in its hour of need four hundred years ago, she still hangs around... and if anyone does stumble upon the other three and worry about the undead "menace", the obvious place they'll go is to said religion, which means she'll know about it. Also, said religion is an obvious place for people to go to with concerns about matters of a demonic nature, thus better enabling the group to gain information about lsuch threats.

(The "Backstory" part of a prior post is consequently due to have a significant rewrite).