1st time gestalting

[Asteron]

One of my friends is starting a gestalt campaign this summer that I am going to play in. I've never played gestalt before so I come for advice...

I want to play a Primordial Half-Giant Psion/Wizard to keep with the SAD. However, I've also never played a Psion. What is a good Psion discipline to pick? I was thinking Seer or Psycometabolist. For wizard, I was thinking either Divination or Conjuration/Transmutation. What is the best combo there?

Thus far we have a Catfolk rogue/urban druid and a DMM cleric/? to work with.

We are starting at level 5 and will be playing RHoD...

[Savith9]

Usually the most typical thing you will see in gestalt is picking classes that are polar opposites to help improve the primary way you plan on playing for example somebody wants to be a wizard that is physically able as well they usually go wizard/fighter for more bonus feats and better BAB however ive also seen people pick something that compliments each other very well and is along the same lines as the first class but not nearly as often, usually you dont want to pick something that is too similar like say wizard and sorc if it casts spells pick another type of magic so you can quickly expand options or a class that has a different spell list entirely.

personally myself i wouldnt do wizard/psion together i would pick what one you want to play the most and do that/fighter to get more bonus feats and expand on metamagic feats faster or whatever path your looking at doing.

The main problem is see with psion/wizard is the huge gap between type of gear you need, for psion you need items that help increace power points and manifester level and for wizard im not too sure about the exact type as i dont really play wizards. not to mention the gap between what feats you need for both of them granted some feats work well for both but not many, if im not mistaken psionic magic has its own set of metamagic feats that pertain to psionics only (dont quote me on that its been a while since ive played one).

[Savith9]

almost forgot with psion/fighter the number of feats you get would allow you to quickly expand your disciplines giving you a wider range of options with the psion.

[gorfnab]

I usually recommend going with an active/passive set up for gestalt. An active class is one that uses up actions in a round, like a wizard casting spells. A passive class is one that gives buffs, skill points, hit points and abilities that don't use actions or are triggered by other actions. Rogues and Fighters would be considered passive classes.

Wizards and Psions are active classes. Casting spells and manifesting powers use up standard/full round actions.

For Wizard or Psion gestalt builds take a look into passive based classes like Factotum, Incarnate, or Warblade.

Wizard // Psion gestalt can work just be aware that you are still limited by action economy. One way around this is to have a decent arrangement of long lasting buff spells/powers that you cast ahead of time. That will free up some of your actions in combat.

[Savith9]

If you do decide on psion/fighter your looking at 23 feats at level 20 so basically a feat a level, there are only 5 levels that you wouldnt gain any feats so definatly some room to work builds. and like i previously mentioned the number of feats would allow you to quickly expand in disciplines and still have room to spare. Ill toss up a post to see if anyone has any ideas for a build with that many feats. wizard would be remotely in the same area with number of feats.

[Asteron]

I've often seen that said on these boards, but lets say I want to be stubborn (not that I am for sure) and stick with that... What is the downside to it?

Aside from having too many options for the number of actions allowed, do you think I will be too squishy?

If I went passive/active, would fighter/psion have better synergy than wizard/fighter?

[Savith9]

If I went passive/active, would fighter/psion have better synergy than wizard/fighter?

If you go wizard fighter you still have to deal with arcane spell failure where as psions dont so you would be able to wear heavier armor and gain more protection and not need to worry about the spells that provide protection nearly as much. As far as spells go theres no real major difference other than spell names and what the spells do, but i would say psionic casters are far above that of arcane casters but that just how i look it and the main reason why is they do have access to spells that can cause a major shift in battle for example fatelink probably one of my favorite spells for psionic characters. This spell alone put some fun flavoring into the last psion i played. Due to how it works i basically made and emo spell caster that woul fate link himself or even a mouse/thrall to an enemy then kill the thrall or myself ect.

edit 1: made a word correction

[Asteron]

The big thing about the fighter/psion or fighter/wizard is that it feels too much like a gish and that's not what I want...

[Andreaz]

The big thing about the fighter/psion or fighter/wizard is that it feels too much like a gish and that's not what I want...Rogue instead :D Throw some 20d6 on those pesky ray attacks. Imagine a Desintegration for 50d6 dice :p

Incarnum's good too, adding lots of resistances, skills and the occasional special attack or aura.

The main downside of being a wizard/psion? It's nearly the same thing as a hypothetical wizard/wizard... you don't really add anything other than a bigger battery.

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On psion disciplines: Go for the power list. Generally I never escape having to buy powers cross-discipline (through Expanded Knowledge). Psychometabolism has good buffs. Telepathy has the almight Schism. Metacreativity (is that the name? O.O) has the fabricate line and astral construct!

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I've often seen that said on these boards, but lets say I want to be stubborn (not that I am for sure) and stick with that... What is the downside to it?


The beauty of gestalt is you get to 'add' a dimension to your character. What exactly does a wizard add to a psion, or the other way around? Only spells or powers, many of which are similar or exactly the same anyway.

Now, what does a ranger add to a psion or wizard? A d8 HD, a good b.a.b., 4 skills per level, a good expansion of class skills, a good fort save and a good reflex save, a very minor spell list, but one that is very different from the one you already have, all kinds of weapon and armor proficiencies (remember, psions can manifest in armor). This gestalt adds a whole range of roles and a lot of defensive power to the caster.

Am not saying ranger is the best gestalt for a psion or wizard (though you could do much worse), it is just an example.

[Razanir]

Fun gestalts I can think of (using the SRD):

Warning: No guarantees these aren't MAD

-Fighter//Psion for aforementioned reasons
-Rouge//Wizard for sneak attack rays
-Monk//Cleric. My friend did this once and would punch people as part of flurry of blows to deliver cure spells. Be sure to run a monk fix by your DM to at least get standard action FoB
-Barbarian//Druid. Need I say more?
-Barbarian//Rogue. Be sure to be the civilized party face. That idea also works with the above
-Soulknife//Rogue. Draw your mind blade and stab them immediately. If I was DM and it was in parley, I'd allow sneak attack damage
-Soulknife//Cleric. For the fluff of summoning your mindblade from your patron deity. If I was DM, I'd allow Shape Mindblade to let it match your deity's favored weapon

[Savith9]

The big thing about the fighter/psion or fighter/wizard is that it feels too much like a gish and that's not what I want...

how does it feel too much like a gish build? the fighter is utilized for feats, HD, BAB and Fort nothing more you dont have to be a melee character just because your also a fighter you can build an outright mage that has higher of all those previously discussed. now if you want to do a psion without fighter you might try psion/wilder due to the wilders ability to pump up their spells. for wizard i would say wizard/cleric and go mythic thurge. Have you rolled up any stats yet?

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Choose your 'active' side. In this case, choose between wizard or psion. Just pick the one you like best, they are both great. Then, think of the type of thing you want to do in battles, and out of combat. Find a gestalt class that A) helps you in the roles you want to fulfill (scouting, acrobatics, dishing out physical damage, being capable of taking punishment, social interactions, whatever), B) covers some of the wizard/psion weaknesses (skill points, class skills, b.a.b., saves, HD) and preferably C) works passively (in other words, gives out abilities that last a long time so you don't have to spend actions on it).


how does it feel too much like a gish build? the fighter is utilized for feats, HD, BAB and Fort nothing more you dont have to be a melee character just because your also a fighter you can build an outright mage that has higher of all those previously discussed. now if you want to do a psion without fighter you might try psion/wilder due to the wilders ability to pump up their spells. for wizard i would say wizard/cleric and go mythic thurge. Have you rolled up any stats yet?

A fighter wizard would be a gish. All those bonus feats have to be spent on fighter feats, so they are pretty much wasted (except for improved initiative) on a 'straight' wizard. Also, in the gestalt rules it is heavily suggested to ban the use of theurge classes, so you would have to check that with the DM first. Many will not allow it.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is nothing wrong with wizard / psion. You just need to focus on making sure you don't get the two classes fighting for the same resorces.

Now, what you want to pay attention to are your three most valuable resources in gestalt. Stats, Feats, and actions.

Now you want to have your classes so that you can use the same stats for both. Psion / wizard works for this. You are int > con/dex with nothing else mattering.

Now you need to decide to make one side "active" and the other side "passive". Spellcasters (and a psion is just a funny spellcaster) do this through buffing themselves and others. Both wizard and Psion have great buffs. Once again transmutation and conjuration are great.

Your psion side will be restricted by powers known. Your wizard side will not. Lets make the psion side passive, picking up awsome self buffs to match an active Battle Field Control Wizard.

Psion (egoist) 5 / crystal master 10 / psion 5 // focused conjurer 20

Race - Anything. Human is always nice. Grey elf is also fine.

Feats
1st level - Psycrystal
3rd - Psicrystal Containment
6th - Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct)

Powers to get -
Go for long duration buffs.
Share pain / vigor - Get vigor, share it with your psicrystal, and share pain with it. This halves all damage you take and gives you a bunch of extra temp HP to take that damage with.
Fusion - Ok take that action economy! Now you can split your power points and spell slots into two characters!
Astral Construct - Ok, now we mean buisness. Fusion split and get two of these bad boys going for awsomeness.

Spells - Focus on BFC and summons. Ban Evoction, necromancy and abjuration. You can pick up def bonuses and dispells from your psion side

Once in crystal master start getting crystals you like
+6 int is nice
so are the +6 con and dex crystals
+6 ac and saves is one crystal
Then go with something else, you get 5 crystals after all.

Crystal master PRC
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I mostly like the active/passive split, since you're only gonna be taking the same number of actions per turn, anyway.

As such, I strongly suggest either Binder or Artificer for one side. They both let you set yourself up some stuff that will benefit you in combat, without actually using actions.

[Asteron]

On the Crystal Master, what kind of bonuses are the stat increases? They don't specify...

[ZamielVanWeber]

Untyped. They stack with everything. I would offer up the Marshal for consideration. While relatively strong, their big shtick is to stand around and be helpful be existing. Taking Psion with it would let you keep those strong aura's while being allowed to contribute in a meaningful way.

[avr]

Since it doesn't specify, they're untyped and stack with anything. It adds directly to the stat bonus rather than to the stat anyway, so likely there's nothing else which might compete anyway.

On wizard//psion; you will be squishy, d4 HD is very low for gestalt. This means you need a decent Constitution to avoid being fried by attacks which just lightly toast the rest of the party, which means grey elf is not ideal. Your saves will be poor compared to the rest of the party.

Note that the crystal master PrC requires you to devote 5 crystals (you get 5 + 1 for your psicrystal over the course of the class) to get a +3 bonus to a stat bonus; you can't get +3 to your INT bonus and +3 to your CON bonus as fouredge suggests.

[ArcturusV]

Well, I'd suggest picking Psion or Wizard, and taking the other side as LA/RHD in something you want to run and has relevant bonuses myself.

[Asteron]

Note that the crystal master PrC requires you to devote 5 crystals (you get 5 + 1 for your psicrystal over the course of the class) to get a +3 bonus to a stat bonus; you can't get +3 to your INT bonus and +3 to your CON bonus as fouredge suggests.

This doesn't seem right. From the article "Each type of gem can be embedded only once."

The way it reads to me is that you get 5 different crystals over the course of the PrC and each one gets better the more different crystals you get.

[Fouredged Sword]

A psion with PP to burn is not squishy despite the 1d4 HD. The can vigor up or an many HP as they feel they need.

Other than that, you are Very Sad excpecialy if you are acting as a summoner rather than a blaster. You can very easily go Int>Con with a base 16 in each. That ends up as 18/14 with grey elf, so if that is your goal it works out easier on the point buy.

[Asteron]

Fouredged Sword-Thanks for the ideas, but I think that I am going to go either wizard or Psion on one side and something else on the other. I just can't decide which. If I go Psion, I'll definitely take the Crystal Master PrC...

If I go wizard, I think I want to go Incantatrix and maybe hit a few levels of Archmage. So it would be wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage X/Other X.

For my other side, another DM and I had worked out a Savage Species progression for the Kelvezu from MM2. This DM has ok'ed it (he trust's the other DM's judgement; we are all friends.) We lowered the DR to 10/cold iron and the natural armor to 8. The dex bonus also got lowered to 10 instead of 20. We also stuck on 2 LA to the 12 RHD. I'm sure it will still be considered overpowered, but as the cleric is going Werebear, I'm sure I won't completely steal the limelight...

[Andreaz]

A psion with PP to burn is not squishy despite the 1d4 HD. The can vigor up or an many HP as they feel they need.

Other than that, you are Very Sad excpecialy if you are acting as a summoner rather than a blaster. You can very easily go Int>Con with a base 16 in each. That ends up as 18/14 with grey elf, so if that is your goal it works out easier on the point buy.5 per caster level. Unless all you want to do is stand there and recast it you'll be sitting ducks against any pressed assault.

[Fouredged Sword]

5 per CL is not a small amount. Also you can share pain with your psicrystal for half damage.

So really it is like having an extra 10HP per HD. Mix that with a con of 14 and that 1d4 HD doesn't hurt nearly as much.

[herrhauptmann]

Could do a second DMM cleric.
"Steppin on toes blah blah" complaint?
Screw that. Just don't use the same deity/domains. Play your character differently than he plays his.


Cleric//factotum.
The whole point of factotum? The piety class feature for extra turn undead attempts. And each of those should get boosted by your night stick, every time you use it. So instead of 3+wisdom, you get 7+wisdom to boost your buffs.
Then you can keep your regular turn attempts to actually kill undead.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Incarnate, Totemist, and the Binder classes all offer a slew of passive benefits. Incarnate and Binder (Magic of Incarnum) also give you access to the lovel Soul Manifestor PrC.

Staying with the Psion//Wizard idea, I've always been a fan of going Swiftblade on the wizard side for better skills, BAB, and HD and other "gish" abilities while still getting full manifesting from Psion. Once you get Schism from your psion levels, you can still full attack/cast or cast/manifest. Swiftblade also eventually gives you an extra standard action while under the haste spell. Nothing like firing off three spells/powers in a round before metamagic!:smallbiggrin:

[Andreaz]

5 per CL is not a small amount. Also you can share pain with your psicrystal for half damage.

So really it is like having an extra 10HP per HD. Mix that with a con of 14 and that 1d4 HD doesn't hurt nearly as much.I agree, but you're still standing there soaking the damage.
Vigor is to be cast before the battle, don't be fooled.

[Asteron]

Could do a second DMM cleric.
"Steppin on toes blah blah" complaint?
Screw that. Just don't use the same deity/domains. Play your character differently than he plays his.


Cleric//factotum.
The whole point of factotum? The piety class feature for extra turn undead attempts. And each of those should get boosted by your night stick, every time you use it. So instead of 3+wisdom, you get 7+wisdom to boost your buffs.
Then you can keep your regular turn attempts to actually kill undead.

I just got done playing a DMM cleric though. Trying for something different here. It's been a while since I played a wizard and I've never touched Psionics.

[herrhauptmann]

I just got done playing a DMM cleric though. Trying for something different here. It's been a while since I played a wizard and I've never touched Psionics.

Alright, it's still a good idea for later.
Good luck on the psionic stuff. (You guys are using fractional bab/saves right?)

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I just got done playing a DMM cleric though. Trying for something different here. It's been a while since I played a wizard and I've never touched Psionics.

Just as a side-note, I like archery as a hobby for when I am done shaping the battlefield, especially with a psion. I mean, you want to conserve some PP here and there and then it is nice to have something to do. A fully augmented Prescience, offensive paired with knowledge devotion and possibly a favoured enemy bonus makes for a very effective archer (1d8+25 to 30 per arrow is quite doable at high levels, and at level 5 two arrows doing 1d8+8 is doable with minimal investment). Not as impressive as a two-hander bruiser, but hey, you already did your job changing the battlefield and you are at a safe distance.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also Psiwar // Psion makes a very nice build due to actualy having the PP to use your psiwar stuff all the time. Psirogue // Psion is also very nice.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Psirogue // Psion is also very nice.

Aye, am playing one right now. Doing the constructor thing. Works very well.

[herrhauptmann]

Also Psiwar // Psion makes a very nice build due to actualy having the PP to use your psiwar stuff all the time. Psirogue // Psion is also very nice.

Don't those end up with separate PP pools?

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Don't those end up with separate PP pools?

I am not sure, I think there are no explicit rules. However, a multiclass psionic character pools trhe PP. It is a small step to have gestalt psionicists get the same benefit. I would. See, in the end, it does not matter much: the psion side takes the 1hr/lvl and other high PP taxes, and the warrior/rogue takes the 'cool' stuff. Both have high ML, so either way around, it amounds to the same.

[Fouredged Sword]

Another cool option would be to go psithief // spellthief. I think there is a feat that lets spellthieves steal PP you can then use on spellthief powers..

[herrhauptmann]

I am not sure, I think there are no explicit rules. However, a multiclass psionic character pools trhe PP. It is a small step to have gestalt psionicists get the same benefit. I would.

Ahh, thought multi class psions kept separate PHP pools and ML, the same way multi class martial had separate IL and move lists using their different refresh mechanics.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Ahh, thought multi class psions kept separate PHP pools and ML, the same way multi class martial had separate IL and move lists using their different refresh mechanics.

The ML is separate, though. A psion 12 / psychic warrior 2 has a lot of PP to manifest his Expansion, but he can not augment it.

[Mishkov]

Just like to chime in in support of wizard/psion if that's what he wants to do. You have A LOT of game breaking action economy spells/powers plus you have a familiar and a psicrystal. That's a lot of things to do each round.

Not to mention all the swift action/quickened spells and powers. You could pick up classes like abjurant champion to make more things a swift action too. It'd double tier one classes, it would be completely viable.

Otherwise, facto is the class most people like to gestalt with either of those, double actions, insane skills/versatility and keys everything into INT.